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They were the worst. And not because of the Cristian factor - I never had a problem with Cris/Natalie - but because of them. For years, he was flat-out emotionally abusive to her and the show absolutely refused to be honest about it. Remember that horrible scene where Jess told Viki that Antonio's violent temper scared her, and Viki just dismissed her concerns and talked about what a good man he was, and this AFTER his anger issues had led him to shoot her husband in the head!

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I wasn't around for that stuff--and yes, it sounds awful--but the Cristian factor, I think, mattered more here than it did with Natalie, despite them being twins. Antonio knew Jessica as a young teenage girl. Just the very idea of them seemed wrong to me. 

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It was awful. It was one of those moments where it was obvious the Viki was used to approve of something to the audience and... no. I mean, it fucked up Viki's character to be used like that, too. If Viki heard her child saying that a possible romantic interest's violent temper frightened her, she'd bloody well listen and encourage said child to keep distance from this person.

 

For fuck's sake, that Viki would be a proponent for Antonio at all after his hair-trigger temper resulted in Ben getting a bullet to the head and going into an irreversible coma is LUDICROUS. Antonio shot Ben in the head. Antonio shot Ben in the head!! He was disobeying orders and shot Ben in the head!!

 

Please. Antonio is not related to Viki. She would have been done with his huffy ass then and there, not ignoring Jessica's fears and encouraging her to be with him.

  • Love 2
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That was Malone's return, wasn't it? I seem to recall Malone really identifying with Antonio and God knows he put a great deal of time and effort into the whole Angel Square storyline on his first run.

 

I think he said that Andrew was probably the character most like him but there was something he said about identifying with Antonio that was kind of obvious once he returned and immediately threw Jessica and Antonio together in a 'meet cute' situation that.. ugh. It was not an idea that was worth exploring but Lord was he ever going to go down with that ship.

 

I think he did, too.

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Antonio and Jessica was all Malone. Antonio was his ultimate hero, the prince of the streets - "El Leon". He loved Andrew very much, loved a lot of characters, and I think he may have had more plans for Andrew in the 2000s that never got off the drawing board, but when it came to Antonio he was all-out. The insane Santi saga was all him too.

 

I know Kamar de los Reyes was supposedly upset that they never dealt with the Cristian issue, but there a lot of stories about Kamar that make me loath to agree with him too much.

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I recall Antonio and Andie really working in Malone's original run but when they were written off and then he came back with a story about how she cheated on him (bullshit) and he just started wading through every female withing spitting distance... he wasn't the same guy. Malone ignored a lot of crap when he came back regarding Antonio and it just wasn't going to work.

 

And the Santi shit? Please.

  • Love 2
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(edited)

IIRC, Andy originally was going to have been killed in the line of duty and I think Kamar was the one who made JFP change it because he didn't want her killed off. Still, it's bullshit. I loved them together back in the day.

Edited by jsbt
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Would it be fair to say that Malone's favorite character of the ones he created was probably Luna, though? She was not only, IIRC, the first new character he ever introduced to the show, but like him, Luna was also from North Carolina (as was Susan Batten--write what you know, as they say!). I have no doubt about his fondness for other characters he created like Andrew, but especially judging by how he had Luna's ghost return in 2003-2004, it just seemed to me like Luna was, by far, the character closest to his heart. 

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I know Kamar de los Reyes was supposedly upset that they never dealt with the Cristian issue, but there a lot of stories about Kamar that make me loath to agree with him too much.

 

The Cristian issue?  You mean the whole "he's back from the dead, but maybe he's an imposter, but actually he's not" stuff?

 

I wasn't watching during Antonio/Andy, but given Antonio didn't really have another OTP out there, I'm surprised Ron didn't drop in a random line somewhere that they had reunited off-screen.  That would have been a very Ron move.

Edited by TeeVee329
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I hated Antonio/Jessica. He was just a terrible person, not a good romantic partner and really, borderline abusive. I don't know if he ever would have actually hit her, but Jess was right to be scared of him. Yet the show kept insisting that he was a nice guy and a hero. Boo on that. I also hate KdlR.

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The Cristian issue?  You mean the whole "he's back from the dead, but maybe he's an imposter, but actually he's not" stuff?

 

 

 

I was thinking he meant that Antonio was dating a girl he knew as a teenager dating his younger brother and the creep factor around that. Maybe not, though.

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(edited)

The Cristian issue?  You mean the whole "he's back from the dead, but maybe he's an imposter, but actually he's not" stuff?

 

No, the fact that Cristian and Jessica had been teen sweethearts and a huge youth couple on the show for years prior to the pairing with Antonio, who had known Jess since she was a very young teen.

Would it be fair to say that Malone's favorite character of the ones he created was probably Luna, though?

 

I think he loved all his creations, but I think it was Andrew, Marty and Luna that may have been closest to him. Antonio became huge for him later on as well - he worshipped the guy in the 2000s. I also loved Luna so it didn't matter to me, and I loved Antonio in the '90s.

 

It took the pairing with Talia for me to like Antonio again - they were great together, and I loved how unconventional a character she was and how affectless an actress Beth Ann Bonner was. They should have just written them off together happily, but instead they had Talia killed off by Powell Lord while he was away, then sent Antonio off chasing Carlo Hesser forever (and leaving his daughter with R.J. and Carlotta). It was terrible. Also, Carlo would never have stood for his daughter being murdered like that.

Edited by jsbt
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I hated Antonio/Jessica. He was just a terrible person, not a good romantic partner and really, borderline abusive. I don't know if he ever would have actually hit her, but Jess was right to be scared of him. Yet the show kept insisting that he was a nice guy and a hero. Boo on that.

 

Ugh, it was awful, and Antonio was so smug and self-rigtheous. Was that when the Huffy nickname started? It was very apt.

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(edited)

No, the fact that Cristian and Jessica had been teen sweethearts and a huge youth couple on the show for years prior to the pairing with Antonio, who had known Jess since she was a very young teen.

 

Oooh oh duh, of course.  I can't even remember, was Cristian around when the Antonio/Jessica push began or was he already "dead"?

 

I remember the ONE moment of Teen!Jess I legit enjoyed was her horror when she found out she had been married to Antonio.

Edited by TeeVee329
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You know, I think I had completely forgotten about Talia--looking back, I remember liking her, and her with Antonio. Yeah, it wasn't a good idea to kill her off, especially as Carlo's daughter. I wish she had stuck around. 


Oooh oh duh, of course.  I can't even remember, was Cristian around when the Antonio/Jessica push began or was he already "dead"?

 

 

 

He was around, but very happily in love with Natalie. He was presumed dead at the very end of 2003, shortly after he and Natalie married. Antonio & Jessica had already slept together by then (and now I need to stop talking before I get sick. *shudder*).

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Mitch returned in the fall of '02. Erin left in January of 2003 - she was unhappy with her reduced role, with her pairing with Seth Anderson, and allegedly felt the character had been shortchanged by Gary Tomlin in favor of Natalie (it had).

 

They recast in February of '03 with Bree Williamson, who shared her first scenes with Kamar de los Reyes. She was introduced as a superficially tougher, sexier Jess who helped Antonio manage a crisis following a train crash during a snowstorm - it was one of many ridiculous one-day events in Malone and Griffith II's writing tenure. Her first days involved falling into Antonio's arms after kicking open a vending machine to feed the injured citizenry. That was about it for Jessica's new 'tough' side - she immediately became a clueless damsel in distress for a host of villains from then on. In Malone's eyes it was clearly meant to position her as the new primary heroine of the show, a mantle Jessica had always been meant for, but they took so much of Erin's maturity and quiet intelligence away that, after Dena Higley took over and introduced the DID/Tess angle, the Jessica character never recovered from what both writing teams had done to it. And the mantle of show heroine and Viki's heir, IMO, then fell to Natalie. (Natalie and Cristian, who were big in 2002, could not buy airtime for most of '03, by comparison - David Fumero left the show in October-November after their months on the backburner, leading up to their wedding and the arrival of Michael Easton as John McBain.)

 

Cristian was around for Antonio and Jessica, but to my knowledge they never really discussed it. There may have been one brief scene where Cris was like, 'sure, okay,' but KDLR felt (as did I) that it was never properly addressed, either the age issue or the sibling one.

 

Beth Ann Bonner (Talia) has since come out - she was long rumored to be gay and possibly involved with Bree during their time on the show. She recently married her partner. IMO Antonio always worked best with women he couldn't push around, and Talia was tough.

Edited by jsbt
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Mitch returned in the fall of '02. Erin left in January of 2003 - she was unhappy with her reduced role, with her pairing with Seth Anderson, and allegedly felt the character had been shortchanged by Gary Tomlin in favor of Natalie (it had).

 

They recast in February of '03 with Bree Williamson, who shared her first scenes with Kamar de los Reyes.

 

Wow, I had thought Jessica was off-canvas for a good six months to a year before Bree Willamson took over.  The memory, 'tis not what it used to be.

 

And you can't blame Erin Torpey re: Seth.  Dude was a dull cypher and the recast only made things worse.

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At least one of the Seths was intended for Rex - Gary Tomlin had introduced him to be a gay/bisexual twink who stole Jessica's man. That's why they played up their antagonism. Then it got scrapped by the network and suddenly Rex, who had been neutral and almost asexual to a fault for months, became overtly scheming and began banging chicks two at a time in one day.

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It's amazing to think of all the things the show gave Jessica to do/had happen to her that you know would NEVER had happened had Erin stayed on the show. I certainly don't think Antonio & Jessica would have been together with Erin still in the role.

 

BTW, was Jessica's stalking story with Dorian in 1999 after losing baby Megan ever officially retconned by the show itself as the earliest appearance of Tess? Or was that something the fans came up with on their own/generally accept as to what happened there? 

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On a related note, I always thought it was beyond bizarre, given how popular a couple they had been, how thoroughly Cris and Natalie were removed from each others' orbits after he got out of prison.  I get that The Age of McBain was in full swing by then, but Cris was never really considered an option for her again.  Hell, Natalie didn't even make Rama's list of Cris' exes during his exit (and yet Ron found time to trash Layla and Cayla some more, shut up, Ron).

 

That was another bright spot during Teen!Jess, it gave Cris and Natalie an excuse to talk, even if we had to endure Teen!Jess' screeching about it.

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BTW, was Jessica's stalking story with Dorian in 1999 after losing baby Megan ever officially retconned by the show itself as the earliest appearance of Tess?

 

I believe it was.

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(edited)

I like that they at least gave Christian and Jessica a nice goodbye scene when Chris left Llanview for good (or leaving the show? Or both? I can't remember). And it may have been fanservicy...I also liked the final scene between Erin and David.

Edited by AndySmith
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(edited)

The final scene between Erin and David was cute, and a surprisingly happy ending for Cris, who spent his last months on the show as a glorified dayplayer bartender - an exciting new life with the promise of new love.

 

But I hated the rest of it.  The Teen!Jess garbage was the nail in the coffin of Cris and Jessica's relationship for me and I didn't need to see the show circle back to it.  ESPECIALLY because what those scenes really were about were propping up Ford and prepping him to be Jessica's new love interest.  BLECH.

Edited by TeeVee329
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I haven't watched the Teen Jess stuff on Youtube, but given how most people said it was horrible, I really have no desire to. I just remember seeing her last scene with Chis on Youtube, and thought it was nice.

Edited by AndySmith
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I was also impressed that they gave Blair and Cris a good-bye scene. Such a strange little friendship when you think that his first encounter with her was finding her after she got mugged and was in the process of miscarrying her and Todd's first baby. When they recast with Dave Fumero it actually became an odd yet fairly solid friendship between the two characters that lasted years.

 

Fumero wasn't Olivier but he always had a real likability to him. Cris was a good guy and those were few and far between in the latter years of the show. And he was a good guy in a way that wasn't forced. He made his mistakes, certainly, but he was a decent person who felt bad about people getting hurt. I actually liked him during the mess that was Teen!Jess because he was both trying to be firm with her about what their relationship no longer was but he was also protective of her. I really wish he'd been given the opportunity to kick the shit out of Ford for what he did. The whole bit where Ford was practically salivating at the thought that Cris could get laid so easily with this screwed up girl while Cris looked at Ford as if he were insane really established who they were.

 

But the show apparently thought that Ford's brand of creep factor was a hit. So so so awful.

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(edited)

David Fumero was never the second coming of Michael Zaslow. But he was very, very solid and dependable, and by the latter half of his run he could do a lot more and show a lot more range than the show ever gave him credit for. They never let him seriously get out of the minority or third-tier circle after Jessica and Natalie were done with him, and you could've legitimately paired him with Blair at several points. A show like the Y&R of even just ten years ago would've done it. But Cristian was a brown hunk who was segregated into a certain space, period, for his last five years or more. I haven't seen him on his Starz show, but I'm sure he'd surprise me.

 

I liked seeing Erin at the end, but honestly, Erin should've just come back as Jessica. I was more pissed that they didn't let Cristian reunite with Layla. I loved those two together by the end. I pretend that's what happened, and that Erin the schoolteacher was a rebound. Speaking of wasted talent, Tika Sumpter is incredible on that terrible Tyler Perry show - she's a young, black Erica Kane. Seriously, she's unbelievable.

Edited by jsbt
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Thom Christopher (Carlo) said some wonderful things about David Fumero in the Jeff Giles book on the show, how willing a scene partner he was; even going as far to say that he doesn't understand how he hasn't become a movie star by now. Just some great things. 

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I haven't watched the Teen Jess stuff on Youtube, but given how most people said it was horrible, I really have no desire to. I just remember seeing her last scene with Chis on Youtube, and thought it was nice.

 

Yes, spare yourself the Teen!Jess stuff.  Like I said, it zapped me of any and all desire to see them interact again.

 

What I do remember about those last scenes was Cris very politely yet charmingly asking Jessica if he could kiss her, which was quite the contrast to Ford pushing Jessica against a door and sticking his tongue down her throat (happily, she slugged him in the face, but the tide quickly turned) and yet Ford was who we were supposed to be rooting to be with Jessica.  BLECH.

I really wish he'd been given the opportunity to kick the shit out of Ford for what he did. The whole bit where Ford was practically salivating at the thought that Cris could get laid so easily with this screwed up girl while Cris looked at Ford as if he were insane really established who they were.

 

 

There were at least these scenes where - after they found out about Ford screwing Langston behind Markko's back - Layla and Cris called him on his scumbaggery and threw him out of their apartment:

 

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I liked seeing Erin at the end, but honestly, Erin should've just come back as Jessica. I was more pissed that they didn't let Cristian reunite with Layla. I loved those two together by the end. I pretend that's what happened, and that Erin the schoolteacher was a rebound. Speaking of wasted talent, Tika Sumpter is incredible on that terrible Tyler Perry show - she's a young, black Erica Kane. Seriously, she's unbelievable

 

Show in my head: Layla discovers that she's pregnant (or makes it big and realizes that she'll be in Europe permanently due to her career taking off) and doesn't want Cristian to feel obligated to leave his job/life in Llanview so she fakes an affair with her boss so that Cristian will break up with her.

  • Love 2
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(edited)

Yes, spare yourself the Teen!Jess stuff.  Like I said, it zapped me of any and all desire to see them interact again.

 

Oh definitely, if for no other reason than to not taint the memories of the nice final scene we got with Chris and Jessica (even if it was Bree's Jessica, and not Erin's). I have to say, though, David and Bree from what I remember at least had some nice chemistry in that scene.

Edited by AndySmith
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I really wish he'd been given the opportunity to kick the shit out of Ford for what he did. The whole bit where Ford was practically salivating at the thought that Cris could get laid so easily with this screwed up girl while Cris looked at Ford as if he were insane really established who they were.

But the show apparently thought that Ford's brand of creep factor was a hit. So so so awful.

 

Ugh, that was so revolting. Cris told Ford exactly what was going on with Teen!Jess, and all Ford could think about was that she'd be an easy lay. So, so gross.

  • Love 2
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(edited)

Show in my head: Layla discovers that she's pregnant (or makes it big and realizes that she'll be in Europe permanently due to her career taking off) and doesn't want Cristian to feel obligated to leave his job/life in Llanview so she fakes an affair with her boss so that Cristian will break up with her.

 

I will never not call bullshit on Layla cheating on Cris.  Not when the whole arc that led them to each other was her basically being destroyed by Vincent's serial cheating, which led her to not trust her instincts when she got involved with the closeted Fish, which then led her to eventually open her heart to Cris.

 

I get that Tika Sumpter left and they couldn't stay off-screen engaged forever, but they could have just as easily gone with Layla falling in love with her new life in Paris and choosing that over Cris.  There didn't need to be physical cheating.

 

And Cris' outrage at the whole thing was a little rich given that during that time period he a) got drunk, grossly made out, and then even more grossly propositioned Gigi and b) spent New Year's Eve kissing and playing strip poker with Blair.

Edited by TeeVee329
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Cris and Layla could easily have reconciled. Barcelona and Paris are not that far away from each other. I like to think that Layla's 'cheating' was a ruse as well. That it was a way to let go of the long distance relationship and let Cris off the hook because he's a good guy who would hold onto something that wasn't working. But then they ended up on the same continent so they could have a future.

 

At least that's how I think of it.

 

And Todd is probably thrilled at the idea that Blair's boy toy is across the sea so she doesn't get any ideas about storage rooms, strip poker or anything whenever he screws up. (Which he's likely to do... it's Todd.) Just as I like to think that Jess and Brody reconciled because that's how it should be, dammit! I imagine that, by this time, Triskelion.org has been dealt with and Todd and Blair are back together and they live in a really big house with the idea that when they fight they can retreat to different corners instead of storming out and calling lawyers but because they've been apart for so long they never actually use that. They are totally the 'don't go to bed angry' kind of people because they know how much time they've lost. Max and Gabrielle are in Argentina (and as far as Todd's concerned, they can stay there), Tea, Victor and Dani went back to Tahiti (and as far as Todd's concerned, they can stay there) and I honestly don't know about Viki and Clint.

 

Also, I don't know about Kevin. Who did he end up with because no way should he be stuck with Kelly. Keep her with Joey. Who's right for Kevin?

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Also, I don't know about Kevin. Who did he end up with because no way should he be stuck with Kelly. Keep her with Joey. Who's right for Kevin?

 

Rachel?  I've always had this theory that Daphnee Duplaix and Dan Gauthier would have really sparked together.

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Kevin and Rachel together was always my idea for a tentpole fortysomething couple for the Buchanans (along with Bo and Nora, of course), should the show ever return again.

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And Rachel gets unexpectedly pregnant and Kevin is at first angry and heartbroken but a test proves that he was not sterilized - Spencer Truman being either incompetent or a liar - and the baby (a girl, I decided just this minute) is his. Yay! (Rachel is not impressed to have been accused of cheating, but they work it out.) Then a DNA test proves that Zane is also his son after all. Double yay!

 

The Buchanans do benefit from additional DNA tests in our collective imaginations, don't they? They also prove that Ryder is Brody's son, and Rex is NOT Clint's son. Depending on my mood, I sometimes mentally adjust Liam's paternity as well.

 

And absolutely Layla and Cris reconciled once they were both in Europe. This is canon as far as I'm concerned.

 

Note to self: Just put it all in a fucking fic already.

  • Love 2
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Then a DNA test proves that Zane is also his son after all. Double yay!

 

But first, big soapy confrontations where Kelly is called out on her sonfuckery by Zane.  "What do you MEAN my actual dad is my dead brother?!?!"  Now imagine that in a British accent.  Niiice.

Edited by TeeVee329
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Yes! I mean, in my head, Zane finds out about the sonfuckery first. He is freaked and grossed out, rips Kevin and (mostly) Kelly new ones and runs away...to Llanview. Kevin follows - he's by far the more involved parent, I don't care how many stupid blogs Kelly has - where the two of them decide to stay, at least for a while. Then Kevin starts reconnecting with Rachel...

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Also, I don't know about Kevin. Who did he end up with because no way should he be stuck with Kelly. Keep her with Joey. Who's right for Kevin?

 

Part of me wants him back with Cassie. Judge me if you must. 

And Rachel gets unexpectedly pregnant and Kevin is at first angry and heartbroken but a test proves that he was not sterilized - Spencer Truman being either incompetent or a liar - and the baby (a girl, I decided just this minute) is his. Yay! (Rachel is not impressed to have been accused of cheating, but they work it out.) Then a DNA test proves that Zane is also his son after all. Double yay!

 

The Buchanans do benefit from additional DNA tests in our collective imaginations, don't they? They also prove that Ryder is Brody's son, and Rex is NOT Clint's son. Depending on my mood, I sometimes mentally adjust Liam's paternity as well.

 

And absolutely Layla and Cris reconciled once they were both in Europe. This is canon as far as I'm concerned.

 

Note to self: Just put it all in a fucking fic already.

 

Write some Max & Gabby stuff, too! Lord knows I'll probably never motivate myself to finally do it. ;)

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(edited)

It's possible, but I don't think it was ever said explicitly that that ever happened. All I know is that Cassie, I think, is still in Savannah, GA, which is where she's lived ever since she left the loony bin in Switzerland. 

Edited by UYI
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(edited)

Nope, they weren't back together as far as we know. I mean, they visually implied it at times, perhaps, by having them appear together to break the news about Melinda to the Cramers, but to the best of my knowledge Cassie was still living in Savannah and Andrew was still minding the store at St. James' Church in Llanview.

 

I would've reunited them at the end, even if it's just a line of dialogue from someone. At that point, why not. No, they weren't always an exciting couple, but they had chemistry, were great characters together or separate, and I wanted them to have a happy ending. I also love that Andrew is still in town.

Edited by jsbt
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(edited)

That's right, they used Andrew as a fake-out when we were supposed to think Mitch and Allison killed Cassie with POISONED TEA back in 2010. 

 

That cliffhanger - of Cassie dunking a tea bag and sipping some earl gray while the music went DUN DUN DUN - was hilarious.

Edited by TeeVee329
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Wasn't there another reverend at St. James' in the end, the one that was supposed to marry Natalie and Brody and ended up marrying Tina and Cord?  Or was he just filling in because Andrew was away at the moment?

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There were several others, but Andrew, when he appeared, was always referenced or shown to be at St. James and still in town. I figured it was just, IDK, one of the other priests? I'm not a churchgoer. I think the last time we saw him physically in the church may have been when he "met" the amnesiac Marty there in '08. (A great scene, BTW.)

 

I know he was slated to re-marry Bo and Nora in 2010 but couldn't make it because of a cancelled flight. That said, I have never seen a direct reference that claimed he ever left town.

Edited by jsbt
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