All Episodes Talk

[TeeVee329]

The Rae/Skye thing was all JFP, but I can't quite recall whether Skye knew before the wedding. I think she did.

 

Whether Skye knew she was Rae's daughter before the wedding?  No, she didn't know.

 

Here's when they dragged in David Canary to try and explain it all:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOTmeuagv1I

[jsbt]

Well, there you go. I purposely blocked most of that story out.

Edited July 21, 2015 by jsbt

[AndySmith]

I have to admit, I liked Skye on GH...not so much on OLTL. Granted, once I got over the retcon of her not being a Chandler, I liked her there as a Quartermaine (and I hated that they then retconned the retcon that she wasn't...oy, what a mess).

 

I didn't like her time on OLTL. Whatever fun there was with the Skye/Blair feud was almost all due to the wonderful talent and chemistry between RC and KDP. Skye never really seemed to fit in here. Of course, it didn't help that we had Rae criss-crossing over all the ABC shows and making a big mess of everything (they really did waste Linda Dano quite a bit in that role, I thought).

[dubbel zout]

I liked her there as a Quartermaine (and I hated that they then retconned the retcon that she wasn't...oy, what a mess)

 

What was that about? It was so stupid, as Alan decided he'd treat her as his daughter no matter what. 

[TeeVee329]

It was seemingly about pairing her and Ned up for five seconds, which was so, so gross.

[jsbt]

What was that about? It was so stupid, as Alan decided he'd treat her as his daughter no matter what. 

 

I was so glad she was de-Q'd, really. Alan accepting her immediately and them all treating her like a longtime member of the family made my teeth ache.

[Dandesun]

I didn't like her time on OLTL. Whatever fun there was with the Skye/Blair feud was almost all due to the wonderful talent and chemistry between RC and KDP. Skye never really seemed to fit in here. Of course, it didn't help that we had Rae criss-crossing over all the ABC shows and making a big mess of everything (they really did waste Linda Dano quite a bit in that role, I thought).

 

You know, that's very true. Skye didn't belong in Llanview and only really fit in amongst characters that were all new and also didn't really belong. She was connected to Ben and then to Rae. They pushed her into the Max/Blair relationship... which is fine, I always hated them, and even made a small attempt to have her scheme with Todd but Todd doesn't really team up with people. He used her to get what he wanted -- Blair -- and she was completely expendable otherwise. He didn't give a shit that she wasn't guilty of shooting Max, he was happy to set her up and send her to prison because then Blair would be grateful and that was his in. There was no softening from him towards Skye and, also, Starr couldn't stand Skye so that was a definite strike against her, too. They weren't allies by any stretch. She was a tool for him to use and she caught on fairly quickly that he would sooner stab her in the back then actually help her out.

 

And it's not like Max and Skye were a viable pairing. He was a fake Buchanan that's really all she wanted out of him. He was also too preoccupied with Blair and Todd to look at her and go 'my gosh, you are what I've wanted all along!' Max was not a great character in that time period (thanks JFP!) he was just skeevy and slimy and utterly joyless.

 

Other than Kassie and Robin being really fun together... there wasn't much there to work with.

[UYI]

I don't understand why they had Max pretend to be a Buchanan, after Gabrielle had already made it look like he was Asa's son in 1990 when he wasn't. Did he try to alter the DNA test or something, which is guess is what Gabby did back in the day? Didn't Gabrielle call him out for doing something she had already done when she came bacK? 

[jsbt]

It was a stupid story both times, AFAIC. I have no idea why they brought it back. It was one of the most colossal wastes of time on JFP's OLTL, and it consumed so many characters for years. I could never take Asa seriously going around saying shit like, "Max, yer the son I nevah had!" I had come in in '93 and even then Asa and Max were not BFF.

 

I suppose you can say, in retrospect, that the family angle has some poetic resonance in the larger context of their long-standing, love/hate relationship re: Max's real father, but that's only in looking back years later and trying to find some good in it. it still was an incredibly boring and stupid story as it happened and should never have occurred.

Edited July 21, 2015 by jsbt

[UYI]

I will say this: I always believed Max seeing Renee as a surrogate mother, especially since I think Andy's first story on the show was that Max's mother, Patricia, had left him and Steve behind as kids and had Andy with another man (that other man, BTW, was Jake Harrison's dad--he and Andy were half-siblings through him, just as Max and Andy were half-siblings through their mother). It made perfect sense that, at the very least, Max would come back for Asa's memorial sense, if more for her sake than for Asa himself. 

Edited July 21, 2015 by UYI

[jsbt]

Oh, sure, the Renee connection was always there. And Max and Asa developed a deep love-hate relationship both before and after the second Buke heir story, so you can see it as that push-pull rhythm of theirs waxing and waning, and I had no problem believing Max would come back for Asa's memorial - he and Asa had grown to deeply respect if perhaps not love each other. They had a complex bond. That doesn't change the fact that that JFP story was godawful.

[AndySmith]

The Max/Renee bonding was one of the few decent things to come out of that story.

[Dandesun]

Well, I know the reasoning behind it was that Max had basically given all of his money up to get his kidnapped twins back in that rather nasty deal that RJ was a part of and then he had brain surgery or whatever and realized he had nothing to leave his kids so he and Blair concocted the 'fake Buchanan story' so that Max could leave a legacy or something to all of the children he wasn't raising.

 

I don't recall who came up with the scam. Blair probably went for it because she's always happy to screw Asa over but I don't think it generated with her. Still, I wasn't watching then so I'm not sure.

[TeeVee329]

And it all teed up Gabrielle and Al's "Hey, remember us, asshole?" entrance.  Good stuff.

[UYI]

Random, but I always wondered why Jessica Morris (Jen) had a different piece of music than everyone else in the Yellow and Black era bumpers. I like it, but no one else had this music.

 

 

The two pieces of music they generally used were this:

 

 

And this:

 

 

These promos take me back. When I first began watching the show, these were the bumpers they used. 

[TeeVee329]

This came up on the GH thread so I thought I'd post it here...Niki Smith pops by to beat up on Echo during her brief emergence:

 

[dubbel zout]

Hurrah!

 

*runs to GH thread to apologize to jsbt.*

[TeeVee329]

I thought Viki cracking and disassociating over losing Charlie, of all things, was stupid, but I loved this scene with Echo.

[jsbt]

Hurrah!

 

*runs to GH thread to apologize to jsbt.*

 

That wasn't what I was referring to, actually. Viki slapped Echo.

 

 

And now I see we've talked past each other and misunderstood, but never mind, it's still a good clip.

Edited July 24, 2015 by jsbt

[TeeVee329]

Definitely a good clip.

 

There was also this great moment that came, I believe, a few episodes later.  Echo has the balls to say that Viki doesn't know what it's like to lose a child like she (ha) and Charlie have and Viki sets her fuckin' straight:

 

 

Viki: You dumped your child, you threw him away!

 

Me: Can you blame her?  I mean, you've met Rex.

Edited July 24, 2015 by TeeVee329

[Dandesun]

Viki finding Charle and Echo was beyond magnificent. Erika Slezak was on fire. I kept watching those clips because, holy crap, when Echo started dithering at Charlie when Shane was discovered missing and Viki was all 'Are you KIDDING?!'

 

Really, when it came down to it, all the players involved were so good. Brian Kerwin, Kim Zimmer, Robin Strasser and Erika Slezak... And I pretty much loved the fact that Echo was so wretched that Dorian teamed up with Viki to oust her.

[jsbt]

It was incredibly well-performed, and also, well-written. Which makes me wonder where some of those people went. I know part of the old OLTL crew went to DAYS. And I think GH sometimes gets good dialoguers out for big beats.

 

I will never forget the scene at the hospital where Dorian hands off the audio recording to Viki, proving Echo knew about Rex and Clint all along. Viki holds it up, waves goodbye to Echo and the elevator doors close behind her. Classic.

Edited July 24, 2015 by jsbt

[TeeVee329]

And I pretty much loved the fact that Echo was so wretched that Dorian teamed up with Viki to oust her.

 

I remember one amazing moment when Viki FINALLY decided to throw Echo's ass out of Llanfair.  Echo went to follow her up the stairs, but Dorian jumped in her way.  I forget what Dorian said, but the tone of voice Robin Strasser used was screaming, "BRING IT BITCH, I WILL END YOU!"

 

J'adore!

Edited July 24, 2015 by TeeVee329

[Dandesun]

I don't necessarily know what the writers were going for at the time but I do know that making Echo into Rex' mother basically solidified her status, to me, as utterly vile. That was never going to make me root for her. I felt vaguely ill whenever I came upon any 'family' scenes with them. Just... ugh.

 

I still don't understand why they didn't go the route that was obviously planned with Rex being the result of Roxy and Mitch. It's not like Echo being involved made him more palatable. And making him Clint's is inexcusable. I refuse to acknowledge it. I liked that Rex and Natalie were brother and sister, at that point, because they wanted to be rather than the fact that they actually were. At the end, the relationship with Rex and Nat was the only one I liked Rex in.

[TeeVee329]

I liked that Rex and Natalie were brother and sister, at that point, because they wanted to be rather than the fact that they actually were. At the end, the relationship with Rex and Nat was the only one I liked Rex in.

 

Exactly.  I liked that Rex and Natalie were brother and sister because they grew up together and chose to be.  And Melissa Archer usually brought out the good side of JPL in scenes together.

 

But like I said above, I was done with their relationship once and for all when Rex denied her tearful pleas that she save Clint's life for her, but then turned around and sold the heart to Clint to finance the Frodd vendetta.  That Natalie never got to tear a strip off of him for that still bugs me.

[jsbt]

I wished they'd left it at Mitch, but I thought the Clint/Echo reveal was a smart way to salvage what had become a ridiculous story. JVD and KZ were both very strong, dependable daytime stars who made that material sing and worked as schemers at odds. I thought there was a lot of great drama that played out there, for a number of months, anyway. I don't think I ever needed yet more of Rex the frontburner player, Rex the failed corporate raider, or the complete destruction of Charlie's character. That being said, good material came out of what happened to Charlie.

[TeeVee329]

Here's a question - if they had left Rex's paternity at Mitch, would you have wanted them to go through with the rumored idea of making Schulyer Rex's retroactive twin?  Or would you have left Sky out of it altogether?

[jsbt]

I would've left him alone, probably. I don't know. The Sky/Roxy link was nice, for the two or three days it was onscreen.

[Melgaypet]

I would've left him alone, probably. I don't know. The Sky/Roxy link was nice, for the two or three days it was onscreen.

 

Those scenes made me cry. OLTL wasted so many opportunities.

 

I would've preferred Sky and Rex to be twins. Or for there to have been some baby-switch, with Rex the child of Mitch and some one else (Leah? Allison? Anonymous Sheep?), given to Roxy because...reasons. Okay, that's probably needlessly complex. The twins thing would have likely been best.

 

It could, in theory, lead to hilarious discussions between Natalie and Rex about complicated relationships with long-lost twins. Even if most of Rex's relationships would have run smoother if, you know, he wasn't an utter tool 99% of the time.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Melgaypet

[TeeVee329]

I'm torn.  I did really love the little we got of the Schuyler/Roxy relationship.  But I'm wary them being brothers would have led to a dynamic where Rex was the "good" twin and Schuyler was the "bad" twin.  I mean, they already hinted at that in the swap story, with baby Rex being awesome and strong and baby Sky being all sickly and pathetic.

 

It could, in theory, lead to hilarious discussions between Natalie and Rex about complicated relationships with long-lost twins.

 

Rex: OMG Natalie, I just found out I have a twin!

 

Natalie: Girl, I've been there.

Edited July 24, 2015 by TeeVee329

[Dandesun]

I wished they'd left it at Mitch, but I thought the Clint/Echo reveal was a smart way to salvage what had become a ridiculous story. JVD and KZ were both very strong, dependable daytime stars who made that material sing and worked as schemers at odds. I thought there was a lot of great drama that played out there, for a number of months, anyway. I don't think I ever needed yet more of Rex the frontburner player, Rex the failed corporate raider, or the complete destruction of Charlie's character. That being said, good material came out of what happened to Charlie.

 

Yeah, Charlie got screwed but he went out the right way at least because the stuff with him finally confronting Echo on the mountain of lies she used to lure him in and his realizing just how fucked up she was and how he had fucked up his life because of her influence was pretty awesome.

 

When he was tearing into her and then came out with the thing about Shane 'no wonder that kid ended up on a roof!' Holy shit that was magnificent! And Zimmer's reaction was pretty great, too. Charlie acknowledged what he had thrown away with Viki because of Echo's manipulations... and then when he left and Echo was clawing at the blinds in that shitty hotel room? Bwah ha haaaa!

 

The thing is, I never felt sorry for her. I figured she reaped what she sowed on that score. And then when she tried to flat out murder Dorian? Off with you, bitch. On your bike! Yeah, they played Sam's rescue for laughs but Echo was seconds away from smothering Dorian to death with a plastic bag. Nope. Not acceptable.

[jsbt]

Oh, I never, ever felt sorry for Echo.

[TeeVee329]

The only time I was on Team!Echo was when she trolled Gigi's hair and makeup the first time they met.

 

I couldn't believe she never got busted for forging all those documents re: Clint's heart and fortune, especially since she reaped the benefits by getting a mansion to live in.  But I guess they ran out of time.

Edited July 24, 2015 by TeeVee329

[TeeVee329]

This talk of Echo reminded me of another moment she was involved in I loved, her coming face-to-face with Kim.  Kimmie wasn't too impressed with Rex's "other crazy mom", to say the least (sorry, the only clip I could find has Rex being an asshole to Clint mixed in):

 

[dubbel zout]

Echo had some great moments, but the whole Rex nonsense permanently tainted her stay in Llanview for me. And I still want to poke an eardrum when I think of her saying "Chuckles." That was the worst.

[Melgaypet]

Ugh, Echo. There were times she made me laugh, so you can say I "enjoyed" her - which I attribute mostly to Kim Zimmer - but I never rooted for her to win or felt sorry for her. Mostly, she was just obnoxious.

 

She did bring out the Queen in Queen Victoria, so that was a plus.

[TeeVee329]

And I still want to poke an eardrum when I think of her saying "Chuckles." That was the worst.

 

Between that and Crybaby James' incessant use of "Twinkle", it was a bad time to have a nickname in Llanview. 

[Melgaypet]

Dude, don't remind me. I have tried very hard to forget about James and Old Man Nate and Rapist Bobby and their over-waxed chests and their duh faces and their insulting "love" stories and their robotic mother and their massive amounts of screen time and... *head explodes*

[TeeVee329]

jbst brought these scenes up over in the GH thread and I managed to find them.  In Brett Claywell's first apearances, lab tech Kyle Lewis reveals to the flabbergasted Buchanans that Rex is David's father, then that Rex is David's son, and then finally that David is Bo's son:

 

 

 

Also in the second clip, witness Fish goobering it up in a turtleneck when he brings Stacy flowers after their first one-night stand.  Oh Fishie!

[TeeVee329]

In other news, I'm sure he's a very nice person in real life, but this boot-licking tweet he sent to Ron made my Ford hate bubble to the surface.  Shut up, dude.

 

David A. Gregory ‏@davidagreg  Jul 25
@carlivatiron you're a champ! You gave me some of the best writing I've ever worked with - hope the next chapter rocks your socks

[jsbt]

"Rex is a little bit younger than I am."

[boes]

 

In other news, I'm sure he's a very nice person in real life, but this boot-licking tweet he sent to Ron made my Ford hate bubble to the surface.  Shut up, dude.

 

David A. Gregory ‏@davidagreg  Jul 25

@carlivatiron you're a champ! You gave me some of the best writing I've ever worked with - hope the next chapter rocks your socks

 

 

 

 

The Ford brothers, or as I try to always think of them, the Fudd brothers, are the things from which nightmares are made.  Bad enough Ron C. stuck us with Gregory's Ford Brother #1, the rapist, then we had Twinkle Ford, and finally Filmy Ford.  And Mama Ford.  They could have thrown them all from the train.

 

I did enjoy Papa Ford, but he disappointed me by not wiping out the family.

 

David Gregory should be grateful, since Ron C. had him show enough skin to get some similar parts after OLTL was gone.  Fair or not, I won't ever be able to watch anything he does without resenting the hell out of what those brothers did to the show.

 

Which, I know, makes me a little bit nuts!

[TeeVee329]

David Gregory should be grateful, since Ron C. had him show enough skin to get some similar parts after OLTL was gone.  Fair or not, I won't ever be able to watch anything he does without resenting the hell out of what those brothers did to the show.

 

I'm with you, it's illogically, but true. 

 

I also remember laughing my ass off when Crybaby James got cast on "Ringer" the next year as this "tough thug" who beat up the stepdaughter's friend.  It was like, dude, nooo.

[ulkis]

But GH changed in the '90s. It became more "real" under Labine. And while Guza was all mob, all the time, he also wasn't about talking dogs or outright hamminess.

 

 

So I know OLTL was all serious and shit in the 90s what with all the gang rape and all . . . when did it start becoming a bit more lighter/hammier? Under Higley? 

[jsbt]

There was a lot of camp and OTT stuff in the '80s, the glorious heyday of characters like Tina Lord, etc. That was, I think, Ron's golden age for the show, and it is very beloved, but like GH, its 80s are very different from its 90s. GH had Wendy Riche and Claire Labine to ground the show in the '90s and make it about social issues; we had Linda Gottlieb, Michael Malone and Josh Griffith.

 

There were OTT stories and camp under Malone's second run as well as Dena Higley in the 2000s, before Ron (who at the time was a staff writer, which he had been since 1996). Those were FV's two previous HWs - he had started on staff in the '80s and was promoted to EP from within by Brian Frons, who preferred to oversee the soaps in a more hands-on way that infringed on most of his executive producers. But almost all of their campy shit was very dark and gloomy - disasters, supervillains, serial killers, etc. There was very little sense of fun, it was just bad.

 

When Ron was promoted to HW, that's when the humor really ramped up and became a much lighter show, which embraced elements of camp as opposed to simply doing camp that thought it was very serious business. (Gary Tomlin's team had had a lot of humor in 2001-2, but it was much more amateurish.) And for a long time I think that humor and lightness worked on the show, and was needed, because there was also a lot of family and heart and emotion. It wasn't until later that things began to go wrong, and then they did so over time. There would be horrible stories but also good ones. The show had some very bad stretches before it left the network, but I'm not sure it would ever have become a show where Ron would've presented a serial killer as a leading man. I think what happened at GH was a mutation of the worst parts of his OLTL run, which became something much larger and more widespread on GH.

Edited July 28, 2015 by jsbt

[Dandesun]

Most time periods had their light moments. It was just that in the 80s the whole storyline could be outrageously campy but still work -- Asa and Alex' Central Park Cowboy/Cleopatra wedding that involved thugs dressed as nuns kidnapping the bride (in full Cleopatra regalia) and the Buchanan man giving chase on horseback. Then again, that was a wedding and, at that time, weddings on soaps were generally light-hearted, fun affairs.

 

Or there were things like Cord fighting that wrestler while he and Tina were dealing with the villainous Jamie Saunders. Because... what? There were generally light moments (or weird ones) in the midst of a storyline you could take relatively seriously.

 

Even Malone was capable of humor. The Marilyn Monroe storyline where Dorian and Blair teamed up to get Irene's diary back AND entrap David into 'cheating' on Dorian so she could ditch him without having to give him a penny and he wouldn't have the diary to hold over her head and possibly get her sent back to Death Row for Victor's murder was a scream... and they included Todd in it which also continued the fun factor. Of course all of that also tied back into Victor Lord's death (from the 70s) and expanded upon Viki's DID which was treated very seriously at that time. 

 

Things tied together better. Of course soaps are extremely pulpy when it comes down to it but balance matters... story beats matter. The various sides matter. Dying by exploding wedding cake is ridiculous on its own but the set up and the reasons for it and the reactions afterward were rooted enough in real emotion or real tension that the event itself works.

 

Tina telling Todd that Blair's lying to him as he's reuniting with her, so that he sees her kissing David and gets all snarly about it is all well and good but then you see Blair spitting and wiping her mouth in disgust the second David's back is turned. Blair's motivation is made crystal clear through it all... her love for Todd equally so as well as his for her, so much so that he confronts her and demands the truth and she tells him. Having them on the same team made it more fun... plus David came into town pretending to be the guy Todd turned out to be. And, through it all, Dorian and Todd continued to hate each other's guts.

 

The thing about Todd's redemption that they seem to forget is: Todd was never redeemed. He didn't cease to be a rapist, he always would be and he would always know that. It didn't get white-washed. Marty never forgave him and she never should. Blair was not a pillar of society and she's something of a wreck herself so falling in love with him wasn't grossly out of character or anything. Todd wasn't redeemed he was just made viable. He never became the hero and his romantic relationships were rife with tension and dysfunction and all of that. Blair loved him but she knew what he was capable of better than anyone else. They were two fuck ups that you somehow found yourself rooting for because they were just that good together... and they made sense. (They both got shitty writing over the years, though.) Todd didn't bounce from love interest to love interest to love interest and his past was never forgotten by anyone... least of all him. Nor did he ever treat it like a joke.

 

Franco coming to Port Charles with a DVD that somehow exonerates him... no. Every step they've taken with him at GH is the wrong one but it's not a surprise because Ron made the same mistakes with TSJ's Todd after the Rapemance and he made those mistakes with Ford, too. Time and care and honesty is required for a redemptive arc and Ron did none of those.

[jsbt]

Nobody in the press ever questioned Ron hard enough on the rapemance, which is why he got away with it. Some part of him has been trying to outdo it ever since.

 

There was humor in other areas on the show at all times, definitely in the '90s. (Dena's regime was largely incredibly dark, though.) But I think the big lean towards the lighter stuff was very pronounced under RC, and for me, welcome for a while because there were also other serious, emotionally mature stories, or stories with a core of heart. For a while, anyway. Now I think what's become of GH since 2013 is more and more a facsimile of having heart. Some days they still care, but usually it's getting lost under layers of camp, snark or plot.

Edited July 28, 2015 by jsbt

[dubbel zout]

Nobody in the press ever questioned Ron hard enough on the rapemance

 

Didn't Michael Logan tell everyone to calm down, it wasn't rape? If that was that story, the press wasn't helping.

[Dandesun]

Was that about the Rapemance or Margaret Cochrane raping Not!Todd?

[TeeVee329]

I actually thought Logan's "Calm down, it's not rape" comments were about Jax being raped on GH (you know, the rape Carly and Jason laughed about HATE).