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Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019: Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Their Story

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On 5/18/2019 at 10:31 AM, MarkHB said:

I think there's zero chance that that happened.  Given what they already learned logistics-wise from CoEX, I'm sure that Greg, Sarah, the individual showrunners and Pedowitz had already sketched out how things were going to work back when they were working up Elseworlds.

I also wonder about Black Lightning.  Obviously the show itself won't be in the crossover mix, but that show has also historically been very vague about which Earth it's set on with random mentions of Supergirl, etc.  I'd personally love to see the Pierce family fighting alongside the others.

I think a big problem with including Black Lightning is logistics. As you pointed out the producers are making adjustments so crossover filming can fit in during the regular season. This is made easier because the shows shoot so close together. With the Black Lightning cast shooting so far away in Atlanta it makes it difficult to include them in any significant way (which I think the Akils prefer).

I could see them showing up in one of Oliver's Adventures Across the Multiverse episodes (the same way Barry stopped by Supergirl when they were filming in California) because it’d be easier logistically. I just think squeezing them into the crossover is too much.

Edited by BaggythePanther
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8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I’d be open for Sara meeting Kate. But unlike before CoEX, I’m not asking for a hookup this time. After seeing Sara and Alex in bed, I felt guilty.

Besides, Sara hooked up with Alex before Sara and Ava were a couple (I don't think Sara had even met Ava yet at that point). I can't see Sara cheating on Ava with Kate or anyone else.

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They have to figure out a way that Oliver lives because if he dies for Barry and Kara, there are going to be a lot of pissed-off Arrow fans who aren't going to be watching any repeats.

On 5/16/2019 at 3:20 PM, SimoneS said:

Thee comments complaining that Oliver should have stayed out of it and not made whatever bargain he made with the Monitor to "save" Barry and Kara completely misses the point of my comment so I repeat, "how Oliver can take Barry or Kara's places in the upcoming crisis? Their deaths in the comic crisis were the direct result of using their powers to save the earth/multiverse/whatever. Oliver doesn't have any powers so he cannot replicate their actions."

I thought it was because Oliver would find a way to save the multiverse so that Barry and Kara don't need to use their powers and thus don't die.

Barry and Kara have superpowers and that's what they use. Like Sara, Oliver is a tactician.

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1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

They have to figure out a way that Oliver lives because if he dies for Barry and Kara, there are going to be a lot of pissed-off Arrow fans who aren't going to be watching any repeats.

I think they'll definitely find a way, but not because of that reason.
 

12 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

I could see them showing up in one of Oliver's Adventures Across the Multiverse episodes (the same way Barry stopped by Supergirl when they were filming in California) because it be easier logistically. I just think squeezing them into the crossover is too much.

I could see maybe a cameo of one of the Black Lightning characters.

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On 5/17/2019 at 8:10 PM, Featherhat said:

In Elseworlds Barry and Kara repeatedly brought up Oliver's mistakes and character flaws, they even had Lois get in only within minutes of meeting him. And we were supposed to agree with them I think. In return Oliver makes this deal because Barry and Kara are super awesome whitehats who are worth more than he is and we're not supposed to really disagree with that considering how many characters point it out. Whilst it's a brave, self sacrificing edit, it wasn't really "look how amazing he is" edit.

The deal Oliver made at the end is evidence that we are not supposed to agree with them. Despite his mistakes and character flaws, Oliver was selfless enough to sacrifice himself for others.  I don't get how we are supposed to view him as anything but honorable and sympathetic.

On 5/17/2019 at 8:10 PM, Featherhat said:

I've never felt Arrow gets favoured in crossovers, quite the opposite but of course YMMV.

That might be different this time around but Arrow is ending and the other shows aren't so that's why. Other characters will have further chances to do that when Oliver won't even be mentioned next year.

Here's the thing. Grant Gustin and the Flash producers have repeatedly claimed that Crisis was supposed to be their series finale. The fact that it was moved up and it's basically serving as an Arrow series finale is another reason why I believe that show gets favored. While you don't agree with my thoughts on past crossovers, you are willing to concede that this time it might be different because the show is ending. Except the fact that they are using what was originally conceived as the Flash series finale to maybe favor Arrow because this is their last crossover is what's making Flash fans upset.

I get that Oliver fans don't want him to die but there's no guarantee Barry and Kara will live happily ever after. For all we know, they could get killed in their own series finales without getting the chance to watch their families grow up. Their deaths may not even be as heroic or get as much fanfare as Oliver's.

Two words on Kate, I hope for no shipbaiting with Sara or anyone else. She has her canon love interest and I don't want that character to get hate right off the bat because of rival ships.

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5 hours ago, Starry said:

I get that Oliver fans don't want him to die but there's no guarantee Barry and Kara will live happily ever after. For all we know, they could get killed in their own series finales without getting the chance to watch their families grow up. Their deaths may not even be as heroic or get as much fanfare as Oliver's.

Oliver has sacrificed his happiness for the greater good (or for someone he loves) more times than I care to think of during the course of Arrow. He literally never gets to be happy for longer than half an episode before it gets ripped away from him for some dumb reason or another. His sacrificing himself for Barry and Kara is an actual character trait that he demonstrates on his own show, that they are using to propel a storyline on the crossover. Misery and self-sacrifice are built into Arrow's DNA - if there's going to be a big sacrifice and someone's going to take the hit, it's going to be Oliver because it fits his character and the show's tone and fans of that show expect it at this point. 

I would be very pleasantly surprised if Barry or Kara were made to suffer any long-term consequences from any of this stuff because I just don't think it suits the tone of their shows. 

I don't need Oliver's death to be heroic or have fanfare. He's consistently heroic on his own show, so a crossover doesn't need to make up for it. Although it would be nice to see other characters with their own well-documented flaws not shitting all over him all the time for once. At this point I'm sure someone would manage to get a dig in at him during his own funeral. 

I really, really do hope that Barry and/or Kara (or literally anyone else) step up to the plate and do something huge to prevent Oliver from meeting the fate that the Monitor promised him. I'm 100% all for it. Please. 

Edited by apinknightmare
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I think that COIE will start with Batwoman, Supergirl and Flash in 2019, with Oliver dying and Barry going missing in the Flash episode as the big cliffhanger. Then, after the break, COIE will conclude with LoT and Arrow in 2020. I think that Barry will be recovered in LoT and then the Arrow episode will deal with Oliver's death.

I also think that the Arrow crossover episode will pay tribute to the show that spawned all of the other DCTV shows in some way.

(1) If TPTB decide not to change the future, then they could copy Avengers: Endgame and have characters from all the other Arrowverse shows present at Oliver's memorial service. They could even include a Black Lightning cameo, since the different universes will all have become one universe by that point.

(2) If TPTB decide to change the future, then they could have the other franchise characters work together to save and bring back Oliver in present day.

In either case, they could still give Oliver a kinda happy ending or a very happy ending. In scenario (1), the other characters are unable to bring Oliver back and believe he is dead, but the Monitor rewards Oliver for his sacrifice by allowing him to stay alive in some branch reality pocket universe.  Or, in scenario (2), the other characters are successful in bringing Oliver back alive in the present day because the future has changed.

Edited by tv echo
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CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS: ARE FLASH AND ARROW'S FINALES TEASING A MORE INTERCONNECTED ARROWVERSE?
BY JESSE SCHEEDEN   18 MAY 2019
https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/05/18/crisis-on-infinite-earths-the-flash-season-6-arrow-season-8-crossovers-supergirl-legends 

Quote

Both Arrow and The Flash just wrapped up their latest seasons. One thing both finales had in common (besides an emphasis on the heroic legacies of Oliver Queen and Barry Allen) is that they teased the upcoming "Crisis on Infinite Earths" crossover. In the case of Arrow, Ollie's happy retirement was interrupted by the Monitor, who informed him the time had come to honor the bargain they struck in "Elseworlds." On The Flash, the infamous newspaper headline declaring "Flash Missing, Vanishes in Crisis" suddenly changed. Recent alternations to the timeline have moved up the Crisis from 2024 to 2019.
*  *  *
We're not suggesting the entire Arrowverse will exist as one massive crossover throughout the latter half of 2019. The sheer logistics involved in coordinating four writer's rooms and dozens of actors for months on end would be insurmountable. But it does seem possible that each of the four shows might have a part to play in paving the way to "Crisis."
*  *  *
Comic book fans might picture DC's 2005 crossover Infinite Crisis, where DC published four separate but connected miniseries (Villains United, The Rann-Thanagar War, The OMAC Project and Day of Vengeance) in the summer that all set the stage for the main Infinite Crisis series in the fall. We could see the four ongoing Arrowverse shows playing a similar role, as each show is given its own mandate and uses the months of October and November to build towards the big crossover.
*  *  *
There's also the question of how Lyla Michaels may factor into the Crisis buildup. In the comics, Lyla is an orphan rescued by the Monitor and tasked with helping him prepare for the Crisis by testing the heroes of many worlds. Arrow has introduced Lyla's codename Harbinger, but it has yet to establish that connection to the Monitor. Will that change in Season 8? Or is Ollie filling that role himself? Either way, The Harbinger/Monitor relationship in the comics could offer some clues as to what the Monitor may want from Ollie now.

Edited by tv echo

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I think the problem is that Arrow and Flash fans are both unhappy COIE is happening now. Most Arrow fans would have preferred season 7 be the end, with Oliver retiring and raising his child. Flash fans would rather COIE be the series finale and feature Barry’s sacrifice.

As an Arrow fan I’m annoyed that COIE, a Flash storyline, is going to be Arrow’s series finale. That doesn’t feel like favoritism, that feels like forcing the show to continue to fulfill a Flash storyline. 

As a Flash fan I don’t like that they’re making Oliver the center of a Flash storyline.

Basically, I hate this whole setup. I understand they want to go all out for Arrow’s final crossover but I don’t understand why it has to be COIE.

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5 hours ago, tv echo said:

I also think that the Arrow crossover episode will pay tribute to the show that spawned all of the other DCTV shows in some way.

Didn't Pedowitz say that there would be an Arrow retrospective special? I think that will be the main tribute.

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When I said "pay tribute," I was thinking of something along the lines of Avengers: Endgame where we see all of these other franchise characters in the one scene honoring the character who started it all.

The Arrow retrospective, on the other hand, will likely focus on what's happened on Arrow over 8 seasons and Arrow characters.

Edited by tv echo
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9 hours ago, tv echo said:

I think that COIE will start with Batwoman, Supergirl and Flash in 2019, with Oliver dying and Barry going missing in the Flash episode as the big cliffhanger. Then, after the break, COIE will conclude with LoT and Arrow in 2020. I think that Barry will be recovered in LoT and then the Arrow episode will deal with Oliver's death.

I also think that the Arrow crossover episode will pay tribute to the show that spawned all of the other DCTV shows in some way.

(1) If TPTB decide not to change the future, then they could copy Avengers: Endgame and have characters from all the other Arrowverse shows present at Oliver's memorial service. They could even include a Black Lightning cameo, since the different universes will all have become one universe by that point.

(2) If TPTB decide to change the future, then they could have the other franchise characters work together to save and bring back Oliver in present day.

In either case, they could still give Oliver a kinda happy ending or a very happy ending. In scenario (1), the other characters are unable to bring Oliver back and believe he is dead, but the Monitor rewards Oliver for his sacrifice by allowing him to stay alive in some branch reality pocket universe.  Or, in scenario (2), the other characters are successful in bringing Oliver back alive in the present day because the future has changed.

Given the final scene in the Arrow finale (the one set in 2040 where the Monitor takes Felicity to join Oliver wherever he is after warning her that it's a one-way trip), I'd say that Scenario 1 is more likely.

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A retrospective special makes me think of the actors, producers, directors and writers sitting around talking about the show while old clips are shown, not an crossover tribute by other characters to Oliver and Team Arrow.

10 hours ago, Starry said:

Here's the thing. Grant Gustin and the Flash producers have repeatedly claimed that Crisis was supposed to be their series finale. The fact that it was moved up and it's basically serving as an Arrow series finale is another reason why I believe that show gets favored. While you don't agree with my thoughts on past crossovers, you are willing to concede that this time it might be different because the show is ending. Except the fact that they are using what was originally conceived as the Flash series finale to maybe favor Arrow because this is their last crossover is what's making Flash fans upset.

You're making the Arrow fans point here:  COIE is a Flash story but again Arrow is getting bent out of shape in the crossover to suit another show.   I think Arrow would have ended at the end of season 7 if they didn't need it to set up the crossover, they talked Stephen Amell into doing 10 more episodes just for COIE, but in order to set it up they need to remove Oliver from his own city and basically from his own show thus Arrow has to be changed completely.  It's probably why many Arrow fans are considering 7x22 as the real end of the show.

Despite enabling the whole 'verse to exist at all, Arrow has always been the red-haired stepchild of the shows (for example, The Flash got its regular schedule altered so that they could have their 100th episode all on their own while Arrow's 100th was part of the crossover).

Every year I go into the crossover dreading what they will do to Oliver and Arrow in it.  If they do kill him permanently, this one will definitely be the worst of all.

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Legends is the red-haired step child. Arrow is the first born who had to give up a lot for his younger siblings.

I'm actually thinking of Arrow 7.22 as the series finale and s8 as a Arrow Crisis event mini series. That's how it feels it's going to play out. We'll have Oliver doing things leading to his death/disappearance and his adult Children living with the consequences. 

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4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

You're making the Arrow fans point here:  COIE is a Flash story but again Arrow is getting bent out of shape in the crossover to suit another show.   I think Arrow would have ended at the end of season 7 if they didn't need it to set up the crossover, they talked Stephen Amell into doing 10 more episodes just for COIE, but in order to set it up they need to remove Oliver from his own city and basically from his own show thus Arrow has to be changed completely.  It's probably why many Arrow fans are considering 7x22 as the real end of the show.

Arrow probably would have been fine if Amell and Rickards wanted to stay for an eighth season.

Both shows (and maybe Supergirl) are getting bent out out of shape for the ratings-boosting, buzz-generating, DC marketing Crossover. I figure that they didn't need Arrow to do CoIE, but they wanted Green Arrow/Amell to be part of it. I don't watch Arrow, but I also think it's silly that they are changing the whole show for this event. The show could have ended, and Amell, etc. could make guest appearances in the other shows; but clearly TPTB thought differently.

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The Monitor was in the Arrow finale but I feel like it was the Anti-Monitor who brought out Ma’alefa’ak J’onzz and (presumably) resurrects Lex in tonight’s Supergirl finale and I will continue to believe this until I get confirmation otherwise. They need to bring him in at some point before Crisis so why not now?  I guess one could be the Monitor and the other the Anti-Monitor but, again, I’ll need confirmation. 

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39 minutes ago, Trini said:

Arrow probably would have been fine if Amell and Rickards wanted to stay for an eighth season.

Both shows (and maybe Supergirl) are getting bent out out of shape for the ratings-boosting, buzz-generating, DC marketing Crossover. I figure that they didn't need Arrow to do CoIE, but they wanted Green Arrow/Amell to be part of it. I don't watch Arrow, but I also think it's silly that they are changing the whole show for this event. The show could have ended, and Amell, etc. could make guest appearances in the other shows; but clearly TPTB thought differently.

ITA. This is all about maximizing ad revenue for the network and producers and nothing to do with favoritism of one show over the other.

I will give a contrarian opinion. As a Flash fan, I am cool with the COIE being moved up for this crossover so that Arrow can be involved (I don't watch the crossovers anyway). I would hate for The Flash series finale to be Barry disappearing and us never knowing his fate. If Barry disappears and reappears for this crisis, the show will be less likely to do the same story for its finale.

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7 hours ago, tarotx said:

Legends is the red-haired step child. Arrow is the first born who had to give up a lot for his younger siblings.

I'm actually thinking of Arrow 7.22 as the series finale and s8 as a Arrow Crisis event mini series. That's how it feels it's going to play out. We'll have Oliver doing things leading to his death/disappearance and his adult Children living with the consequences. 

I think I that's exactly how it's going to play out ( watch us all be wrong). I think SA would have appeared in the crossover anyway just we wouldn't see him recruiting, the re fall of Star City and the mini me legacies like Legends will just turn up off season. If EBR had stayed on we'd have got the "going to join him in pocket universe scene or wherever he is" scene later or they'd have gone together, given that they went out of their way to give them a bittersweet but hopeful ending anyway and what is essentially a decent finale, which a something of a miracle so hopefully it doesn't preceed a scrappy 10 ep miniseries.

Once Elseworlds was planned out Arrow was locked in, even if it went 3 more seasons without SA. Whether it should have been or not is a different matter but they wanted the big finale and Oliver sacrificing home to save whole Arrowverse is fitting even if I'd much rather have something else separate.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

ITA. This is all about maximizing ad revenue for the network and producers and nothing to do with favoritism of one show over the other.

I will give a contrarian opinion. As a Flash fan, I am cool with the COIE being moved up for this crossover so that Arrow can be involved (I don't watch the crossovers anyway). I would hate for The Flash series finale to be Barry disappearing and us never knowing his fate. If Barry disappears and reappears for this crisis, the show will be less likely to do the same story for its finale.

True, if the newspaper is about COIE they'll do something else for the eventual Flash finale, though I can see "appears to make the big sacrifice but turns out alive" happening in a different way since they reuse plots all the time.

I am salty about them mixing all this up malarkey but I can't say Arrow wouldn't have pull the big sacrifice or presumed dead like The Dark Knight Rises anyway, that's been predicted long before Elseworlds/COIE.

Edited by Featherhat

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10 hours ago, statsgirl said:

You're making the Arrow fans point here:  COIE is a Flash story but again Arrow is getting bent out of shape in the crossover to suit another show.   I think Arrow would have ended at the end of season 7 if they didn't need it to set up the crossover, they talked Stephen Amell into doing 10 more episodes just for COIE, but in order to set it up they need to remove Oliver from his own city and basically from his own show thus Arrow has to be changed completely.  It's probably why many Arrow fans are considering 7x22 as the real end of the show.

We are not arguing the same point because I think Flash is the show that is getting bent out of shape to suit this crossover, with its series finale storyline being moved up/altered so Arrow can be a part of Crisis. Oliver and Arrow weren't needed to set up the crossover/suit Flash stories. The higher-ups clearly wanted Arrow to be a part of it so here we are. That's where we disagree.

I actually hoped until the last second that the newspaper Crisis wasn't COIE and that Flash could keep that Crisis for itself but the finale killed that hope.

I understand that some Arrow fans don't care about COIE or any of this big comic stories but from a producer's perspective having Oliver be in Crisis should be viewed as a honor. Choosing such a huge story to end the show and possibly pay homage to Oliver as the founder of the Arrowverse should be seen as a positive thing.

11 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Despite enabling the whole 'verse to exist at all, Arrow has always been the red-haired stepchild of the shows (for example, The Flash got its regular schedule altered so that they could have their 100th episode all on their own while Arrow's 100th was part of the crossover).

Every year I go into the crossover dreading what they will do to Oliver and Arrow in it.  If they do kill him permanently, this one will definitely be the worst of all.

Does it help that the Flash 100th episode wasn't good? I knew that it wouldn't be good and I personally wanted it to be a part of the crossover. I was still watching Arrow when their 100th aired and despite it falling on the crossover, it felt like an Arrow episode IMO. Barry and Kara were barely there.

I too always dread the crossovers. Kara is sidelined most of the time. The Supergirl cast is barely there. Barry gets dumbed down and important aspects of his character get ignored thanks to the showrunner's obsession with keeping Iris out of it, etc. Their crossover episodes barely feel like Supergirl or Flash episodes while I think with Oliver it's clear that he's important. He's usually the one leading whether it's an Arrow episode or not.

I thought the Arrow flashforwards were about a future that was set in stone and the only thing s8 and the crossover needed to do was fill in the blanks. You guys seem to harbor some hope though. Fingers crossed that they change it and Oliver doesn't die.

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From the Smallville panel at MegaCon Orlando yesterday...

Edited by tv echo

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No Smallville. I'm sorry, but that brings up memories of wasted time and the worst Lois Lane ever. Teri Hatcher could have have played Lois the same way she portrayed her character on Desperate Housewives, and that still would have been better than Erica Durnace.

In regard to Arrow . . . maybe the final season takes place before Mia's birth, with Felicity staying behind in the cabin? I dunno.

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Last night's Supergirl season finale apparently also served to set up COIE - I didn't watch, but here's two media recaps...

https://ew.com/recap/supergirl-season-4-finale/

Quote

Elsewhere, a portal opens to disgorge the Monitor, who greets a Green Martian who’s been trapped for too long, a phantom to his people, who’s there to avenge himself against J’onn J’onzz, the brother who wronged him.

Finally, Lena apparently left Lex’s body where it fell, which is deliciously cold, but the Monitor arrives to work some kind of magic over him.

https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/05/19/supergirl-season-4-finale-crisis-on-infinite-earths-set-up/

Quote

As the events of the episode conclude, The Monitor (LaMonica Garrett) shows up speaking to a mysterious figure. He tells the figure that he's been trapped for too long and a phantom fo his people and that it's now his time to avenge himself against hs brother. The hooded figure? A Martian and the brother who wronged him none other than J'onn. Then, after that, The Monitor is seen visiting Shelly Island -- and Lex Luthor's body.

Edited by tv echo
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Hee! The Monitor stopped by LOT to catch the show they put on at Heyworld. He didn’t like the planned stuff but did enjoy watching the evil Tabitha interrupt and fight Sara while a dragon flew around. We also learned he’s a fan of popcorn. 

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I said on Reddit that he's probably tweeting too. "These fools are needed to deal with the crisis? Someone's playing a cosmic joke. #DemLegends"

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1 minute ago, Miss Dee said:

I said on Reddit that he's probably tweeting too. "These fools are needed to deal with the crisis? Someone's playing a cosmic joke. #DemLegends"

Joke's on him because the Legends can solve the Crisis all on their own. At the very least I expect them to come up with the battle plan since they've already used a version of it back in season 1.

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MarkHB

This thread is specifically for discussion of Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and speculation and spoilers directly pertaining to them.  Full rules for the thread are here; please read them.  Off-topic posts may be removed.

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