S04.E08: Pangs

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; The siege of Fort Giles and Buffy's cooking preparations are both excellent. Love Buffy's stetson hat (foreshadowing?) and the Xander digging scene plus the Angel lurking scenes. Favourite though has to be the Scooby cavalry riding to the rescue.

The Bad; In all the dodgy lessons I've learnt from Buffy perhaps the most disturbing is the idea that when threatened by the vengeful spirit of a wronged Native American tribe the solution is to wipe them out entirely so you don't have to worry about them any more.

Best line; Spike; "You won, alright? You came in and killed them and took their land....The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons and you massacred them. End of story". Of course Spike is a Victorian, the days when (as Blackadder the 4th put it) "You saw a bloke in a grass skirt you shot him and nicked his country"

Character death; The priest, the professor, the poor guy captured by the vamps. Buffy kills Hus.

Shot; Buffy hit by an arrow as is Spike

Tied up; Spike to the chair

Women good/men bad; Harmony smartens herself up and kicks Spike out, about time too! Whenever you get the die-hard Spikettes I always think they resemble Harmony a lot more than Buffy or Dru.

Jeez!; The poor priest! Hung and has his ear cut off not to mention the professor having her throat slit. Spike considers pictures of famine victims funny, not surprising from a soulless vamp but amazed they left it in. Angel snapping the warrior's neck is also pretty cringeworthy.

Kinky dinky; Anya get's turned on by Xander performing manual labour. Buffy comments that imaginary Xander is 'quite the machine' (she should talk!). Anya also likes the idea of playing nurse for Xander as indeed does Buffy for

Spoiler

Riley later and fantasises about doing so in uniform chained between Spike and Angel. 

and for Angel in both seasons 2 and 3. Xander proposes sex with Anya at the end of the ep by commenting that his syphilis has cleared up. Buffy says she likes her men 'evil',

Spoiler

in Get It Done we find out why.

Calling Captain Subtext; Spike compares his inability to kill as akin to being neutered, do we need any more evidence that to vamps biting equals sex? Buffy observes that Xander looks quite Village People. Well, he's been a soldier, construction worker, cowboy, leather clad vamp and this ep is filled with native Americans. Just sailor and cop to go really?

Guantanamo Bay; The Scoobies are quite prepared to let Spike broil

Scoobies to the ER; Poor Xander getting syphilis amongst other diseases
 

Spoiler

Where's Dawn? Presumably gone to Aunt Arlenes with Joyce. Arlene must be Joyce's sister rather than Hanks?

Questions and observations; Xander has previously been working at Hot-Dog-on-a stick which is where Snyder suggested Buffy work in season 3. He gives the rest of the Scoobs freebies as will Buff

Spoiler

at the DMP.

Giles and Angel have put their differences behind them. Anya doesn't seem to have met Angel before despite them having been in the same room together in Dopplegangland and The Prom. Buffy seems to have an inkling that Angel is near, her vamp sense or something stronger? Buffy comments how one person can make a difference, certainly Dopplegangland proves that. Asian Joe has obviously survived the events of Harsh Light of Day and is in the stands at the ceremony. Sunnydale has been around since 1812 so before the Mayor was around. Still plenty of Anya and Will tension. Why does Riley cam-up his face but not his neck? Xander refers to Anya as his girlfriend. Note the sign saying US Army over Angel's head when Riley is talking to Buffy. Hus rather reminds me of an old ep of the TV series Kolchak;The Night Stalker which apparently inspired the X-files. In fairness to Custer he was actually a lot more sympathetic to the Native Americans than most.

Marks out of 10; 9/10 I really like this one, perhaps one of the strongest of season 4

[Halting Hex]

On 8/6/2018 at 1:51 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander has previously been working at Hot-Dog-on-a stick which is where Snyder suggested Buffy work in season 3.

I spent a good decade after seeing these episodes assuming that Hot Dog on a Stick was as fictional as Happy Burger (Faith, Hope & Trick) or a latter-season fast food chain.  

But, in fact, it's a completely real restaurant chain.  Huh.  "Do you have what it takes to wear the stripes?"

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I spent a good decade after seeing these episodes assuming that Hot Dog on a Stick was as fictional as Happy Burger (Faith, Hope & Trick) or a latter-season fast food chain.  

But, in fact, it's a completely real restaurant chain.  Huh.  "Do you have what it takes to wear the stripes?"

How about the DMP and Breadsticks?

[illdoc]

10 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

How about the DMP and Breadsticks

Is the Espresso Pump real?

[lembergwatcher]

Someone had to tell the Scoobies that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to "Hostile Subterrestrials" like Spike...

[Halting Hex]

That's actually an interesting question; can a vampire be considered a "person", legally?  There's BtVS/Law & Order cross-over fic where the Scoobs go a-slaying in NYC and Jack McCoy wants to prosecute Buffy because the vampire she slayed was still a resident of New York County (Manhattan) and shouldn't be discriminated against due to his physiological differences.  (And, of course, Jack would rather prosecute the vamp for his crimes than encourage vigilantism.)

Still, the gang isn't always so strict about playing by the rules. 

Spoiler

As they'll prove by turning Ethan Rayne over to the Initiative, four episodes hence.

[lembergwatcher]

On 24.08.2018 at 2:03 AM, Halting Hex said:

That's actually an interesting question; can a vampire be considered a "person", legally? 

After amending legislation they can be considered "citizens with sanguinary issues".

[wendyg]

Would a vampire *want* to be considered a person, legally? True, it would mean they could rent homes, get driver's licenses and passports, seek gainful employment, pay taxes, and get married. On the flip side...

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 12:03 AM, Halting Hex said:

That's actually an interesting question; can a vampire be considered a "person", legally?  There's BtVS/Law & Order cross-over fic where the Scoobs go a-slaying in NYC and Jack McCoy wants to prosecute Buffy because the vampire she slayed was still a resident of New York County (Manhattan) and shouldn't be discriminated against due to his physiological differences.  (And, of course, Jack would rather prosecute the vamp for his crimes than encourage vigilantism.)

Still, the gang isn't always so strict about playing by the rules. 

  Hide contents

As they'll prove by turning Ethan Rayne over to the Initiative, four episodes hence.

Buffy shouldn't worry, Kate Lochley is his ADA. 

On ‎29‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:24 AM, wendyg said:

Would a vampire *want* to be considered a person, legally? True, it would mean they could rent homes, get driver's licenses and passports, seek gainful employment, pay taxes, and get married. On the flip side...

A lot of Buffy alumni in the various L&O franchises over the years, MT's first job as a baby. Very useful if you're playing Six Degrees of Bufferation. 

 Reading Buffy Wiki it points out that all the female characters in this ep show sympathy for Hus whilst it's all the males just want to wipe them out?

[Halting Hex]

On 9/1/2018 at 2:56 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Reading Buffy Wiki it points out that all the female characters in this ep show sympathy for Hus whilst it's all the males just want to wipe them out?

I'm not sure if Anya shows "sympathy for Hus", specifically; it seems more that she gets twitchy when Xander goes to the "you don't talk to vengeance demons, you kill them!' place, for good and obvious reasons.  And every bit of "sympathy" that Buffy shows seems to mostly be for Willow's sake; take Willow out of the equation, and Buffy's as much on the "kill him!" train as Spike, IMO.

Basically, it seems as though the breakdown is this:

Kill, kill, it's self-defense, who cares about his issues?:  everybody but the Jewish girl.

Um, maybe we could try a not-kill solution (such as Buffy did only last episode):  the Jewish girl.

Which, considering that the episode comes down on the side of tolerating genocide, rather makes me unwell.  Yes, silly Jew thinking that wiping out an entire culture is bad…where does Willow get that politically-correct nonsense from, I ask you?  And of course Willow takes enormous amounts of crap for this, from Giles claiming she lacks a level head to all the Xander-fen who insist Willow is risking Xander's life for her SJW cause (that bitch!)  and she eventually comes around to the "slay first, feel bad later" position, which doesn't interfere with the Ritual Sacrifice dinner, because Buffy's Domestic Goddess issues are more important than genocide, apparently.

Of course, since this episode informs us that Willow somehow didn't tell Buffy about Spike trying to eat her and being stopped by his chip (srs, wtf????) and features Willow apparently feeling bad about "outing" Spike's "manliness" issues ("he had trouble performing"), it's no surprise that Willow is treated as a cartoon so Spike (unrepentant serial killer) can end up as the Voice of Truth.  Feh.  Feh a lot.

Meantime, we are introduced to a capable and intelligent female professional, in Dr. Gerhardt.  Only to see her be bloodily butchered by the 1/4 hour mark.  Yes, we have murderous violence against a female academic…in the same episode where Angel "rescues" the gang by…snapping necks.  Probably just a coincidence, but ugh.

Liam Duke pointed out that they probably had Hus turn into the bear so Buffy (after all the talk of white-on-Native murder and other crimes) wouldn't be seen killing an actual Native American.  That makes sense. 

(Although it still doesn't make "you made a bear!" anything close to funny.  I mean, why is Spike scared of a bear?  Is the bear going to maul Spike and cause him to bleed to death?  Er, no, remember that Spike's undead and all, okay, Jane?)

And on the "what do you mean, Anya 'never met' Angel?" continuity error front, I only just realized that not only does this contradict Döppelgängland, but that Anya danced, what, twenty feet away from Angel at the Prom?  Sheesh.

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Which, considering that the episode comes down on the side of tolerating genocide, rather makes me unwell.  Yes, silly Jew thinking that wiping out an entire culture is bad…where does Willow get that politically-correct nonsense from, I ask you?

I can't imagine ultra-progressive SJW/equality champion Joss Whedon allowing a genocide-tolerating episode in his show. Just cannot imagine it. At all.

Also:

• I could never understand why Native Americans waging brutal tribal wars, taking each other's land, pillaging, looting and raping for centuries is somehow OK, but only if white people do something like that it's called genocide;
• I really don't know what does the Thanksgiving Day have to do with Chumash people and California? Chumash Indians have a history of conflicts with Spaniards and Mexicans (see Chumash revolt of 1824) AFAIK, but Jane Espenson is too PC to mention that since her fellow Americans are supposed to be the "devils" while Mexicans are "innocent angels" (no relation to Dear Forehead). Even though war between Mexican Federal Government and Native Mexicans continues to this day in some areas of the country (see Chiapas conflict). Next time try to direct your righteous anger at all guilty parties, Will. For example, write a letter to King of Spain and President of Mexico.  Or maybe I miss something and there was another Chumash genocide in California after 1850?;
• I don't understand why do Dr. Gerhardt, Father Gabriel and Xander have to become targets of Hus & his buddies' "justified" rage over issues that happened loooong before the priest, the Zeppo and female academic were born, i.e. why do they have to pay for the crimes they didn't commit?;
• Yeah, Xander's life could have been Willow's top priority at that moment. Righting the past wrongs could wait.
  Spoiler

  Willow's obsession with "social justice" while Xander was dying from mystical disease is somehow worse than his lack of interest in Willow's emotional state in the following episode. At least from my POV.

   
• I don't think the purpose of the episode was to bash Willow, but rather to remind the audience about the "white guilt" as modern America's fetish;
• And yes, I understand Willow's motives since she sure has to know the history of her nation and therefore have some sympathy for other persecuted communities elsewhere. There probably were some Holocaust survivors in the Rosenberg family, but unfortunately that was never mentioned in the show.

But the bicycle ride was cool. Although I don't get how in the world could Xander be sick, weak and dying for the first half of an ep and then miraculously become strong enough to participate in the aforementioned ride/climatic battle? Was it due to Willow's magic mojo or some Zeppo-healing? Perhaps Jane didn't follow the show's party line and thought Xander wasn't that ordinary, after all. 

Spoiler

Watching how the guy survived the encounter with Olaf the Troll ["God"] without so much as a brain concussion in Triangle only strengthened my suspicion.

Edited June 19, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I could never understand why Native Americans waging brutal tribal wars, taking each other's land, pillaging, looting and raping for centuries is somehow OK, but only if white people do something like that it's called genocide;

Because the natives didn't do such damage to the other tribes' populations, whereas the Europeans completely wiped out certain tribes (such as the Chumash) and uprooted and confined others to "reservations" which to this day are not exactly well-treated by the government.  Total extermination = genocide.  Hitler would have to tip a peaked Hugo Boss cap towards the Spanish wrt their utter expungement of the Chumash.

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I really don't know what does the Thanksgiving Day have to do with Chumash people and California?

Nothing directly, but it's not as if Europeans hadn't had devastating effects on Native populations elsewhere, going back to Columbus and the Taino.  Remember, when Verazzano discovered New York Harbor (and the Narrows that bears his name), the signal fires were so thick along the coastline that he could find no place to land.  Flash forward a few decades and it was a largely vacant Manhattan Island that Peter Minuit conned the remaining natives out of in exchange for $24 worth of beads.  (Yes, Wall Street was built on the site of the original financial swindle.  Appropriate.)  The people didn't go and move to Oklahoma or anything; they died.

Now, originally the "settlers" might not have planned on using germ warfare against the Natives (although they certainly knew of its efficacy; as the European History teacher in Welcome to the Hellmouth is teaching, the Black Plague spread across Europe because the Mongols catapulted infected corpses onto Genoese trading ships during the siege of Theodosia).  It's thought that diseases that killed so many across what later became New England originally were transmitted by a Native who had been taken captive by the French and later escaped; the diseases spread along the trading network the French had built from Massachusetts up to the Gaspé peninsula in Quebec.

Quote

The fury of the contagion began no later than 1617 and continued unabated until 1619, and may have continued in population pockets for years after that.[as] The sweep of the devastation was enormous. The coastal Abenaki as far north as the Kennebec were nearly wiped out. Due south on Cape Cod the three villages there numbered 100 by 1621, whereas Champlain estimated that two of them contained between 650–800. On the coast between those villages and the Kennebec there was nothing but devastation. Where Champlain and Smith found almost continual habitation and agriculture, there was nothing but empty land. The Agawam on Cape Ann were decimated, the Pawtucket (near modern Lowell, Massachusetts) were almost totally destroyed. The Pennacook, Massachuset and Pokanoket were nearly annihilated.

-Wikipedia

Tisquantum ("Squanto") had been out of the country during this, which no doubt contributed to his survival. (He had been conned by Thomas Hunt in 1614 into sailing to Spain as part of a "Trade Mission" from the Nauset tribe; once at sea, Hunt confined the natives and sold them as slaves on arrival in Spain. Tisquantum eventually escaped to England and returned home, finding himself in local politics among the disease-ravaged remnants of the Nauset.)  He was able to use his European experience to negotiate peace between the Nauset and the newly-settled Plymouth colony, but had the diseases not reduced the Nauset, none of the "Thanksgiving" events would have been possible.

But of course, European destruction of the Natives was rarely the result of mere "happy accidents".  Perhaps the most infamous was the use of smallpox-infected blankets by Jeffery Amherst (later Baron Amherst) against the united Native forces during Pontiac's War (the Western portion of the Seven Years' [aka "French and Indian"] War in America):

Quote

One of the most infamous and well documented issues during Pontiac's War was the use of biological warfare against the Native Americans. The suggestion was posed by Amherst himself in letters to Colonel Henry Bouquet.[24] Amherst, having learned that smallpox had broken out among the garrison at Fort Pitt, and after learning of the loss of his forts at Venango, Le Boeuf and Presqu'Isle, wrote to Colonel Bouquet:[25]

Quote

"Could it not be contrived to send the small pox among the disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them."

Bouquet, who was already marching to relieve Fort Pitt, agreed with this suggestion in a postscript when he responded to Amherst just days later on 13 July 1763:[1]

Quote

"P.S. I will try to inocculate [sic] the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard's Method, and hunt them with English Dogs. Supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine."

In response, also in a postscript, Amherst replied:[1]

Quote

"P.S. You will Do well to try to Innoculate [sic] the Indians by means of Blankets, as well as to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race. I should be very glad your Scheme for Hunting them Down by Dogs could take Effect, but England is at too great a Distance to think of that at present."

Yes, spreading smallpox wasn't doing enough to "extirpate the vermin", so the English also considered hunting the Natives with dogs.  And they named cities (and a college) after this guy!

So Hus pretty much has a case.  And while it might not be the Scoobs' specific ancestors who exterminated Hus's specific tribe in Sunnydale, it was part and parcel of a general European strategy;  I can understand why Hus wouldn't feel a need to put too fine a point on things in this instance.

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I don't understand why do Dr. Gerhardt, Father Gabriel and Xander have to become targets of Hus & his buddies' "justified" rage over issues that happened loooong before the priest, the Zeppo and female academic were born, i.e. why do they have to pay for the crimes they didn't commit?

Gerhardt's "Cultural Center" presumably excused or even celebrated the extermination of the Chumash, reducing Hus's people to "history".  The Catholic Church was the "moral authority" that provided the impetus/justification/excuse for the slaughter.  Xander is the schmuck who violated the tribe's resting place.  All logical targets, albeit continuing the theme of Vengeance being excessively destructive and ultimately immoral, going back to Innocence.  (And so Ms. Anya might not take offense quite so easily;  she's been on the other end of the [metaphorical] ceremonial knife herself, not so long ago.)

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I can't imagine ultra-progressive SJW/equality champion Joss Whedon allowing a genocide-tolerating episode in his show. Just cannot imagine it. At all.

Joss can be a hypocrite, as apparently his marital history shows.  The moral of the story is clear:  "You won.  Get over it", to quote everybody's new buddy, Spike.   Joss/Jane toss a few crumbs of acknowledgement towards the past crimes, but ultimately it's deemed an irrelevant distraction from a holiday celebrating family, food, and the NFL.  (The part where for decades the first NFL game of the day was played in Pontiac MI is nicely ironic, I suppose.)  I guess we know where Joss comes down on the issue of reparations, huh?  And the reason he wasn't joining Shailene Woodley, et al, at Standing Rock?

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I don't think the purpose of the episode was to bash Willow, but rather to remind the audience about the "white guilt" as modern America's fetish

Yeah, but Willow gets to be the lucky girl who embodies "political correctness", which is apparently the true villain of the episode.  She is criticized by everyone in the room, 5-against-Jew, and eventually folds and betrays her principles.  Yay?

(That's what she gets for diming Spike out, I suppose.  Snitches get [moral] stitches and such.)

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Yeah, Xander's life could have been Willow's top priority at that moment.

There's nothing to say it wasn't; she and Giles are pursuing separate research tracks and neither pays off before events (Hus attacking, Buffy stumbling on the solution by accident) make the whole argument moot.  Giles never finds a method of killing Hus (whom Buffy has already failed at slaying, remember) only to have Willow be all, "No, you can't save Xander if it means killing the spirit!  Keep going!".  No more than Willow found a binding spell, only to have Giles and Spike shout her down with "If we don't kill him now, he'll just keep coming back.  We need to solve this permanently and Xander will simply have to take his chances."  To accuse either Giles or Willow of being "uncaring guy" about Xander's health is "a radical interpretation of the text", IMO.

But…since Buffy ultimately does use lethal force against the Chumash (helpfully reduced to an animal, to hide the genocide issue in the most racist manner possible), this makes the men "right" and Willow "wrong" in the audience's eyes.  So it's easy to assume she's on #TeamLetXanderDieAlready when she's certainly not.

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Although I don't get how in the world could Xander be sick, weak and dying for the first half of an ep and then miraculously become strong enough to participate in the aforementioned ride/climatic battle?

Because while smallpox and syphilis are certainly not fun to have, they don't actually kill you immediately.  Xander's "suffering" is only there to inflame the audience against That Silly Willow, when in fact he's still perfectly combat-ready (even playing a crucial role in Hus's death) and it's Anya who freaks the Guerreros out, Xander's nowhere-near-imminent demise not even visible to those not in the know.   Sigh.

On the subject of the episode's other mistreated woman, I guess that Doctor Gerhardt's being butchered is ultimately irrelevant to the issue, which is that IMO Angel should never be allowed to be "heroic" by snapping necks.  Gerhardt's death merely throws the Jenny-shaped shadow into relief, but it's always there, I'd say.

To [mis]quote Led Zeppelin, that's a "whole lotta JMOOOOOO…"

Edited June 19, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

it's not as if Europeans hadn't had devastating effects on Native populations elsewhere, going back to Columbus and the Taino.

Everybody did it, not just Europeans. Every single conqueror in history. Ancient Assyrians, medieval Mongols. Not exactly "European" type, I'd say. Ottoman Turks and North African pirates slaughtered & enslaved thousands of white Europeans from 1300s until 1700s. Not to mention the fate of significant part of modern Turkey's Armenian and Greek population in the early 1900s. Or decades of war and genocide against black people in Sudan by their Arab government. So Europeans are very far from being the only bad guys here.

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Because the natives didn't do such damage to the other tribes' populations,

They did. Modern academics just don't like to mention it. Very little is known about people who inhabited Andean mountainous region in South America before Incas came because they were wiped out quite significantly. And there were many Indian tribes who assisted Spanish conquistadors in taking down Incan Empire because Incan rule was brutal and they hated it.

Maybe, non-Europeans couldn't exterminate others to such an extent their European counterparts could, but they did it anyway. OTOH medieval Afghanistan was a totally different place before the (non-European) invaders came and literally destroyed everything.

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Yeah, but Willow gets to be the lucky girl who embodies "political correctness", which is apparently the true villain of the episode.  She is criticized by everyone in the room, 5-against-Jew

I don't remember anyone pointing out Willow's etnicity as a factor in her being wrong or right on some issues. They didn't criticize her because she was Jew. You're egaggerating here.

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

and eventually folds and betrays her principles

No. She helps her beloved Buffy. She saves Buffy's little ass. Buffy is her friend and Hus picked up the wrong targets for his vengeance (go south, boy). Buffy or Hus? Seems kinda obvious to me...

Edited June 19, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm not sure if Anya shows "sympathy for Hus", specifically; it seems more that she gets twitchy when Xander goes to the "you don't talk to vengeance demons, you kill them!' place, for good and obvious reasons.  And every bit of "sympathy" that Buffy shows seems to mostly be for Willow's sake; take Willow out of the equation, and Buffy's as much on the "kill him!" train as Spike, IMO.

Basically, it seems as though the breakdown is this:

Kill, kill, it's self-defense, who cares about his issues?:  everybody but the Jewish girl.

Um, maybe we could try a not-kill solution (such as Buffy did only last episode):  the Jewish girl.

Which, considering that the episode comes down on the side of tolerating genocide, rather makes me unwell.  Yes, silly Jew thinking that wiping out an entire culture is bad…where does Willow get that politically-correct nonsense from, I ask you?  And of course Willow takes enormous amounts of crap for this, from Giles claiming she lacks a level head to all the Xander-fen who insist Willow is risking Xander's life for her SJW cause (that bitch!)  and she eventually comes around to the "slay first, feel bad later" position, which doesn't interfere with the Ritual Sacrifice dinner, because Buffy's Domestic Goddess issues are more important than genocide, apparently.

Of course, since this episode informs us that Willow somehow didn't tell Buffy about Spike trying to eat her and being stopped by his chip (srs, wtf????) and features Willow apparently feeling bad about "outing" Spike's "manliness" issues ("he had trouble performing"), it's no surprise that Willow is treated as a cartoon so Spike (unrepentant serial killer) can end up as the Voice of Truth.  Feh.  Feh a lot.

Meantime, we are introduced to a capable and intelligent female professional, in Dr. Gerhardt.  Only to see her be bloodily butchered by the 1/4 hour mark.  Yes, we have murderous violence against a female academic…in the same episode where Angel "rescues" the gang by…snapping necks.  Probably just a coincidence, but ugh.

Liam Duke pointed out that they probably had Hus turn into the bear so Buffy (after all the talk of white-on-Native murder and other crimes) wouldn't be seen killing an actual Native American.  That makes sense. 

(Although it still doesn't make "you made a bear!" anything close to funny.  I mean, why is Spike scared of a bear?  Is the bear going to maul Spike and cause him to bleed to death?  Er, no, remember that Spike's undead and all, okay, Jane?)

And on the "what do you mean, Anya 'never met' Angel?" continuity error front, I only just realized that not only does this contradict Döppelgängland, but that Anya danced, what, twenty feet away from Angel at the Prom?  Sheesh.

I think the difference between the Native American inter-tribal conflicts and the Colonial conflicts was essentially technology and we were supposed to be a civilizing element. The problem with Hus is he is fixated on vengeance and that is self destructive, just like Jenny and her gypsy curse.  

[Halting Hex]

31 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Everybody did it, not just Europeans.

But we're discussing what Europeans did to Native Americans, and whether Hus is justified in seeking vengeance.  Your initial argument was that his rage was misplaced because the depredations against the Chumash were carried out Spanish/Mexican invaders, and our heroes are of Germanic extraction, largely.  I simply noted that Anglo-Saxons were hardly innocent in these conflicts, so the "hey, wrong whiteys, fella!" criticism of Hus felt unmerited.

31 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

They didn't criticize her because she was Jew.

And I never said they did.  I just noted that due to Willow's heritage, her being cast as the "politically correct" SJW who can't "get over it" had uncomfortable resonances for me.

Just as I never said that Angel waded into the Chumash going, "you like vengeance, huh, guys?  Well, let me show you what I do to vengeful types!  Say 'hi' to the mean teacher for me!" before he made with the neck-snappage.  Its just that the juxtaposition of Angel and the neck-snaps and the bloody death of a female academic triggered a few memories that I feel Passion-ately about.  Intentionally or not.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

To put things in another perspective, imagine if Willow had (by accident or intent) summoned a Golem which was wreaking havoc among the local German immigrant population (none of whom were actual ex-Nazis, but still…) and the Scoobs were telling her "get over it".  I don't think Joss would have been willing to run that up the flagpole and see who (stiff-arm) salutes, so why is it okay to do the same to the Natives?  (Especially with Willow, ironically, cast as Hus's primary defender.)

The difference, of course, is that everyone knows how to stop a Golem:  you erase the first letter from the אמת ("truth") on its forehead, leaving מת ("death") in its place.  How very Jewish, creating a Creature of Vengeance that can be stopped by the mighty power of editing.  Nerds! 😉

[lembergwatcher]

27 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Your initial argument was that his rage was misplaced because the depredations against the Chumash were carried out Spanish/Mexican invaders, and our heroes are of Germanic extraction, largely. I simply noted that Anglo-Saxons were hardly innocent in these conflicts, so the "hey, wrong whiteys, fella!" criticism of Hus felt unmerited.

My main point is that Willow's righteous anger is misplaced, first and foremost. And while Anglo-Saxons do have their fair share of crimes commited against Natives, I don't think it's historically accurate to blame them for things that happened in another part of the country, under literally another authority, i.e. suffering of Chumash people. If Espenson wanted to bash WASPs for the atrocities against Indians, she could have picked up Cherokee or Sioux as an example of how bad the "white devils" are.

Speaking of Anglo-Saxons. Giles and Spike are the only "pure" Anglo-Saxons among the main characters in the episode. Anya is Scandinavian although one might argue vikings did some nasty things to Native Americans too when they got there long before Columbus. As for Buffy and Xander we know nothing about their heritage. They may be Anglo-Saxon but they may be Scotch-Irish either.    

[Halting Hex]

35 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

As for Buffy and Xander we know nothing about their heritage. They may be Anglo-Saxon but they may be Scotch-Irish either

Yes, that's why I called the gang "Germanic" but only "largely".  Xander especially has always seemed to have a touch of the Hibernian about him, IMO.  (Even though Nick's last name is actually "Schultz".  And of course SMG is ethnically Jewish where Buffy's as Anglo as Kristy Swanson.) But I think the point still holds.

As for it being the wrong tribe, the show is already set in Sunnydale and Thanksgiving is a national holiday, so I personally don't have any trouble with a critique of national policy toward the natives, even if these particular crimes were committed under a previous regime.  (Whose descendants, such as Dean Guerrero and Father Gabriel, may still be around and in authority and being targeted for it.)

After all, it's not as if the USA fought the Mexican War and acquired California just to make the West a safer place for puppies, after all.  Our own imperial motives leave us less able to blame the other imperialists, I'd say.  Take the land in order to expand slavery, get stuck with the blame for other people's genocidal tendencies.  That's how it goes, sometimes.  Even without the "this being Sunnydale and all" element.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

5 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

After all, it's not as if the USA fought the Mexican War and acquired California just to make the West a safer place for puppies, after all.  Our own imperial motives leave us less able to blame the other imperialists, I'd say. Take the land in order to expand slavery

Well, American intentions weren't totally pure all of the time, but still better than, say, European powers. I tell you this as non-American, btw ☺️

State of California entered the Union in 1850 as a free state, i.e. no slavery. So...

As for the penultimate sentence, by that logic Allied powers had to let Nazis walk away free after WW2 because of their own imperial motives, atrocities and stuff commited in the past.

13 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Yes, that's why I called the gang "Germanic"

Are Scots and Irish actually Germanic?

17 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

As for it being the wrong tribe, the show is already set in Sunnydale and Thanksgiving is a national holiday, so I personally don't have any trouble with a critique of national policy toward the natives

That was probably the whole point of an episode. And who could articulate that point better than our Willow who's voted the best Buffyverse character in many polls? If Xander started ranting and raving about national policy towards the natives, everyone would have dismissed it. In the mouth of Willow OTOH those points are much more solid, I'd say.

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

State of California entered the Union in 1850 as a free state, i.e. no slavery. So...

Yes, but only due to the Compromise of 1850.  Under the previous Missouri Compromise (1820), Southern California would have been slave territory.  The 1850 revision allowed a unified free Golden State, but in exchange, most of the rest of newly-acquired lands were now open to slavery, including the future states of Nevada and Utah.  (What became Arizona and New Mexico was already south of the Missouri Compromise line.)

With most of the Louisiana Purchase (1803) north of the Missouri line, the South was looking towards southern expansion to keep the parity in the Senate.  Southern interests were eyeing more of Mexico than the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo provided for, and eyes were also cast towards Cuba and other Caribbean territories.  William Walker's 1851 attempt to conquer Nicaragua with a private army was also part of the "Caribbean-as-Southern-lake" concept.  (The failure of these attempts increased pressure to allow slavery in the "free" territories, leading to the Kansas-Nebraska act, "popular sovereignty", and "Bloody Kansas", complete with dueling constitutions and legislatures.)

Of course, all of this goes back to the initial incursion into Spanish/Mexican lands, the settlement of Texas by slave-owning Americans, and the subsequent War for Texas Independence.  Indeed, some in the South said that Texas was big enough to make three or four states, but the Texians, having gained their independence as a unit, had no interest in being chopped into parcels as a condition of admission to the Union.  So the only boundary change was the "what do you Mexicans mean our southern border is the Nueces River? It's the Rio Grande! Get off our land, Pedro!" land grab that provoked the Mexican War in the first place.

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

by that logic Allied powers had to let Nazis walk away free after WW2 because of their own imperial motives, atrocities and stuff commited in the past.

Certainly not "had to", but we were not really in such a position to be on our Nürnberg high horse, given our own experiments in population-purification.  But "to the victor go the spoils", and one of the spoils is getting sweep the Chumash under the table, I guess.

(Just as the Belgians' legitimate quibble about the German violation of their neutrality in both wars loses a bit of its lustre once you get a squint of that lovely collection of Congolese arms [and I don't mean guns] that King Leopold acquired back in the day.  A lecture from Brussels on not taking advantage of weaker countries is about as appropriate as Veruca going on about respecting existing relationships, I'd say.   Which doesn't make the repeated "pivot on Sedan" tactics any more respectful of diplomatic agreements, but still.)

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Are Scots and Irish actually Germanic?

No, that's why I said "Germanic, largely".  The Gaelic parts would be the non-Germanic minor elements of the (hypothetical) Summers/Harris DNA.

[mmecorday]

This was on Comet last night. Before it aired there was a disclaimer that the episode contained outdated cultural depictions of Native Americans. Whatever slang term Spike used to refer to Native Americans was censored.

[Halting Hex]

Really?  You can't even say "the I-word" any more?  I mean, it's not derogatory, it's just historically inaccurate.

Spike also calls Hus "Chief", but given that the Chumash have been completely exterminated, it would appear that he's correct in assuming Hus to be at the top of the leadership structure.

Of all the things to object to in this episode (see above), that wouldn't even make my list.  JMO.