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S01.E06: Cherry

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4 hours ago, Court said:

What I mean was that she planted it on the farm to point to one of the migrant workers. So she's protecting her precious Amma. She knows what the sherrif thinks about the suspect already so it fits within that narrative. 

Oh! Okay. 

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2 hours ago, izabella said:

Thank you for digging that up!  Now I'm thinking the sheriff put the bike in the pond and lied for Adora.

Oooooh, baby!!

I love this theory....bc wouldn't the sheriff just do something like that?  I feel like he's in love with Adora.

And there's nothing he wouldn't do for her.

LOVE. IT.

(eeeeeeee!!)

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9 hours ago, izabella said:

He did?  I must have missed that because all I heard was Adora tell the cops that her workers found it, but nothing about John Keene.  Do you remember what scene it was that John Keene was mentioned in connection with the bike?

My memory is about as reliable as Camille's.  I'm working my way through rewatching, so I'll make a note when/if I come across it.

ETA  Never mind--Accidental Martyr has cleared it up.

 

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

I'm not sure whether it was ever stated on the show how old Camille was exactly when Marian died (or Marian for that matter), but she read to me as pre-teen or very young teen. Roughly the same age Amma, an eight grader, is now. She actaully reads younger than Amma, but I think that's more to do with Amma's personality. So, 12 or 13 would be my guess. 

So I guess we can't judge by Adora's grief.  I don't recall seeing Camille noticing her mother's crying in Marian's room--wait a minute.  There was that scene where Marian had a seizure while she was lying on the bed with Camille.  I'll have to go back and watch that again, although it's hard to tell Camille's age because the same actress plays young Camille at various ages, apparently, and the chopped-off hair is a total washout imo as to figuring out how old Camille is.  If Camille's memory is to be believed, she had long hair at the time of her 16th birthday.

Edited by Mothra

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Thanks for the discussion of the low sound. I have been wondering if it's because I'm over 40 that I'm watching with the CC - glad to know it's not just me.

A friend of mine in college told me that one reason she was so frustrated with her rural town was because of all the drug use, which she admitted was because the teenagers had nothing better to do on weekend nights. So I totally buy the drug use here.

I am fascinated by the town, but sick to death of the Crellins. I'm hopeful that the resolution of the murder will make me say, wow, I have to go back and watch this again - it was so deep! I'm doubtful though. I feel like in two weeks, I'm going to be right back where the Twin Peaks finale deposited me last summer. At least this was fewer episodes.

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16 hours ago, Accidental Martyr said:

Here’s the dialogue:

Sheriff: But you're gonna be goin' home tomorrow.

Dick: Oh, yeah? Why is that?

Sheriff: Mexican worker at the hog farm ID'ed Keene as the guy who dumped the bike in the lagoon.

https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=sharp-objects-2018&episode=s01e06

Wow.  What a treasure--a script!  Thank you thank you thank you!

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On 8/14/2018 at 3:37 PM, Beezella said:

I am wondering where the rehab center is. Is it near Wind Gap, or closer to where Camille works? (Forget which "Big" town.)

On rewatch, I answered my own question. As Richard is entering the building you can see the name St. Louis Rehab.

This show has really gotten under my skin. I have watched each episode at least twice, and like another poster said, maybe will have to watch it all over again after it has ended. One thing I caught on rewatch is shortly before Marian died, she mentioned that maybe after you died, your ghost might want to hang around for awhile just to see what happens. (Shiver!)

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The last scene with Camille in bed and Amma touching her naked back, and Adora looking from the door and Marion saying "it's not safe here for you" was extra creepy to me.

 

Camille literally need's to go back to St.Louis to her boss who is the only parent and a loving person to her.

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On 17/08/2018 at 2:53 PM, Buttless said:

I thought she probably implied to Richard that Camille is so crazy, she probably had something to do with the death of the girl she was confined with in psychiatric care. And thats also maybe why he was checking her out. He's known Camille a week, and his job is literally to check out unusual seeming things, as detective.  I really dont see this as a breech on his relationship with Camille, because they hardly have one and he's just doing his job.  Cutting is one thing.  Cutting your entire body up with words by the time your 30 is another , and points to severe trauma that she's sustained. He's sensitive enough to catch on that she was upset when he was joking with her about what Adora said to him, on Calhoun Day and seemed concerned about Camille. This is also a guy who has strong feelings for abused animals, so I dont see him rejecting Camille. Although honestly? She needs some intensive therapy in order to deal with all of it, her whole life.  I thin Dick can intuit that there's something hinky with Adora.  Im sure as a cop, he probably can tell when someone's playing him. If not, hes a dolt.

Thank you. It was very clear to me Richard was totally doing his job when he was investigating what happened in Camille's past. He knows he has to go deep into the history of the city and his inhabitants if he wants to get to the bottom if this. Whatever happened to Adora and Cammile helped shape what the city is today. And it may very well be related to the crimes. Good detective work, Richard!

That said, he's definitely falling for Camille,  so of course there are selfish reasons too. I just don't think they're bad reasons. I believe he really wants to help her. I hope his actions don't upset Camille, though. He's the only good thing is her life now. Apart from her boss, who seems to care for her, even if his actions are misleaded. 

I never watch an episode more than once. Too disturbing for me. Thank God for this board, or I'd never find out about words, fams and house layouts..

Edited by maddie965
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On 8/16/2018 at 11:51 PM, TattleTeeny said:

Not saying that's it’s my, or all girls', way of thinking or that it’s sound reasoning (I’m still close friends with my high-school female friends to this day, in fact)—and what I described isn't by definition sociopathic (though maybe teenage girl brains come close sometimes--haha, I kid!); there  are tons of studies about adolescents' (particularly girls’) methods and mindsets of navigating their social environments. But this is TV, and I am talking specifically about Amma, who is fucked up, calculating, duplicitous, and quite obviously not an example of “most girls.” Also, yes, clearly she is also manipulating the boys; I didn’t say otherwise—what I said actually bolsters that sentiment.

 

The original post by Tattlrteeny (below)

Quote

I took it to mean an explanation of "popularity" as it relates to gender. 

Girls want to be popular by association (and with the guys) so they stick with a ringleader kind of girl who lays that path for them, whether or not they actually know or like her.

 

You mentioned Amma in  your post, but these quotes above made it sound like you were talking in a broader way. about gender, in general. So it sounded pretty twisted. Thanks for clarifying.

 

On 8/17/2018 at 3:09 PM, bijoux said:

How old was Anne Nash when she did it? In no way do I believe that story happened with Camille. Adora was simply parroting what she heard from Bob Nash and trying to gaslight Camille. Like, I believe Adora must sometimes tell the truth if only because of the law of averages, but I wouldn't believe her if she rold me the sky was blue. 

And talking of her, she's the perfect representation of Amma's fucked up view of interpersonal relationships. She has power over her 'friends', they all come to Calhoun's Day and sip alcohol on her porch (they do what she wants), but they gossip about here right there as well (they don't like her). Alan on the other hand, mostly sticks up for her, limpidly though it may be, and takes her sexual favors when she feels like granting them. 

Adora was sitting there , drinking, waiting for Camille to come home so she could hurt her. So she may have been somewhat high, may have confused Camille with one of the victim girls because they were tomboys , just like Camille. None of the victims were that  young. They were the same age or a year or two younger than Amma, who's 13. So Adora, in addition to all that, is off her rocker. Dont know if it's deliberate or not with her, actually; but shes a lying, manipulative, gaslighting bitch to Camille, so it really doesnt matter to me, as a viewer. She's not redeemable in this story. Unless  you go outside the bounds of this world. and believe the  makers would puull some 'Camille's an unreliable narrator!' story on us in teh last act. And that would just piss everyone off, because absolutely nothing points to that  in this story, so far.

Adora and Amma are cut from the same cloth. Its clear to me that Adora has very strong strains of sociopathy from her behavior; it is that beyond the pale.  Camille does not. Addiction and cutting dont point to sociopathy. She's obviously a caring person, to give a shit about Amma, because most people when confronted with the kind og bulling straight-up meanness of Amma, would at least be cautious around her. If it were me, and she stuvk that lollipop in my hair and twirled it, like she did with Camille, Id have done everything to stop myself from backhanding that little bitch. There's no way Id of let my guard down with her again, and that's a healthy response. Camille just stomps off and cries, like she's 14. She's stuck there by trauma, in the emotional reactions of a 14 year old. She's like that when she goes to Richard too. It's hard to watch. So Camille had a far worse life than Amma, but is not a mean, manipulative and cold person, like her, and her mother.

 

On 8/18/2018 at 3:41 PM, Stephanie23 said:

The last scene with Camille in bed and Amma touching her naked back, and Adora looking from the door and Marion saying "it's not safe here for you" was extra creepy to me.

 

Camille literally need's to go back to St.Louis to her boss who is the only parent and a loving person to her.

Ive changed my view somewhat on her editor, as I went ack and saw he did give her a chance to take an out, when he said, 'Do it , if you can.' But of course, he did put the pressure on her, And he did at like he knew what was best for her. which ia completer b.s.

 

On 8/18/2018 at 10:19 PM, maddie965 said:

Thank you. It was very clear to me Richard was totally doing his job when he was investigating what happened in Camille's past. He knows he has to go deep into the history of the city and his inhabitants if he wants to get to the bottom if this. Whatever happened to Adora and Cammile helped shape what the city is today. And it may very well be related to the crimes. Good detective work, Richard!

That said, he's definitely falling for Camille,  so of course there are selfish reasons too. I just don't think they're bad reasons. I believe he really wants to help her. I hope his actions don't upset Camille, though. He's the only good thing is her life now. Apart from her boss, who seems to care for her, even if his actions are misleaded. 

I never watch an episode more than once. Too disturbing for me. Thank God for this board, or I'd never find out about words, fams and house layouts..

 

To think that he would have the utmost respect for Camille, whom he just met, and put his job second, is weird.  This isnt some fantasy romance story , where its love at first sight and the man is so besotted  that he's living in a delusion , while here's Camille, throwing up these massive red flags every time theyre together.

But. It doesnt play it totally straight either, by having this detective never suspect that Camille is a drug addict.  He can see she hits the bottle hard, already.  So he sees this woman who never even rolls up her long sleeved dark shirts, no matter that its hot, and she never shows her feet, either...As a cop, he's going to assume she's shooting up or has a godawful rash under there.  And even if he's falling for her , and she shows up at his door for a booty call, he is not going to have sex with her without seeing her bare arms, at least.

So which way are they going to play this 'romance' with them?  Is he going to go against type (as a detective), and  be even more in love when he sees her extensive words on her body, because he cares for her so much?  Or is he going to think shes nuts, or a broken beyond repair person?

IMO, if they stick with reality, the relationship will stall out when he sees her scarring. The perception of Camille is that she's 'crazy' because of the scarring. The truth is that she's not at all, and this is a coping mechanism to severe trauma. As a cop, I doubt highly that he would pursue someone who others presume is unbalanced, on sight. And those scars are not going to be hidden forever,from friends and colleagues . That then throws his judgment into question. I think he'll pussy out of this relationship, if it's headed this way.  They've only known each other a week.   [Not sure what i hit to make it underline/ error]

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12 hours ago, Buttless said:

The original post by Tattlrteeny (below)

You mentioned Amma in  your post, but these quotes above made it sound like you were talking in a broader way. about gender, in general. So it sounded pretty twisted. Thanks for clarifying.

You're not wrong; I was indeed talking in a broader sense, and not just about Amma and her crew. This should go without saying, but it by no means applies to all adolescent girls' mindsets, but there's more than enough literature out there (plus a ton of bad Lifetime movies, haha!) about this kind of thing (not to mention true-crime cases where this shit went completely off the rails). It may be illogical to an adult (even a female adult) but it's common enough not to be considered "twisted" for teen girls (and even grown women) to view certain interpersonal relationships in a manner that feels competitive and even treacherous to navigate.

Doesn't mean that Amma is not crazy, just that her take on the differences in boys' and girls' behavior is not what makes her that way. And of course, because this is fictional TV, Amma's quirks and diabolical traits are amplified for dramatic effect and to move the story along. But her ideas about gender and friendship are rooted in reality.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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On 8/13/2018 at 2:36 PM, teddysmom said:

Just read a good review of this episode on Vulture.com.  Reminded me of a few things.

How many times can you watch Beaches before you stop crying. FFS you know she's going to die. It's not even that good a movie.   Now I know why I don't attend the yearly lunch with old high school friends - "they're building that I 69 expansion so the Mexicans can walk up here and kill us".   

Maybe Camille could explain what feminism is to these nitwits. 

I genuinely laughed at your post, but I think the point is that these women use Beaches as an excuse to cry about the misery in their own lives. Gossip of one woman possibly leaving her husband, another's husband not wanting another child, etc. Plus throw in their Stepword-wife quality, and that awful talk about motherhood (trying to convince themselves they're better) I think they don't allow themselves to show much real emotion about real stuff elsewhere in their lives.

In other words, they're not really any happier than Camille, they just express it much differently.

Oh, and put me down for losing it every single time Sally Field has her big freakout post-funeral in Steel Magnolias. Not a movie I watch regularly, per se, but have seen at least 5 or 6 times. 

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1 hour ago, TattleTeeny said:

it's common enough not to be considered "twisted" for teen girls (and even grown women) to view certain interpersonal relationships in a manner that feels competitive and even treacherous to navigate.

I think not enough has been made of the competitive nature of the relationships among Amma and her friends.  Even girls who are besties often envy each other over relative attractiveness to boys, and Amma's self-assurance (John Keene "likes" and "wants" her despite his behavior toward her that we've seen) not only attracts her girl-friends but also makes them hate her a little.  And I wonder if that envy/hate enters into Adora's dislike of Camille--if Adora believes Camille is "uppity" for forsaking life as a matron in Wind Gap for a career, while Adora wants to control everything?

I have been thinking that the identity of Camille's father isn't important, but I wonder if it matters whether Adora was married to him or not.  We've heard nothing, as far as I can remember, about a first husband, and Adora certainly has nothing good to say about the man, which might mean that he abandoned her.  We've also heard nothing (again, as far as I can remember) about Adora's parents.  I assume she inherited everything from them, and she had no siblings, but I wonder how her own mother treated her, especially if she found herself pregnant and unwed.  She told Camille that she thought Camille would "save" her, that Camille's innocent love was going to make her life good.  How is it that a baby was able to disappoint her mother?  A newborn?  "I never loved you."  Not even as a baby?  If there was no husband, maybe the birth of Camille "ruined" Adora just as Camille has "ruined" herself with her scars.

Does Jackie know the story surrounding Camille's birth, and who her father is?  Jackie clearly knows more than she's telling.  I can't help suspecting something not quite right about Marian's death, and maybe Camille being made to feel responsible somehow, when maybe it was Adora's action or lack of action that led to Marian's death.  Epilepsy used to be considered shameful, largely because of the lack of control when the sufferer had a seizure.  It's hard to appear ladylike if you are seizing, and it can happen in public places.  People don't generally die from seizures alone, and the IV pole in Marian's room indicates something else, I think, like infection.

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8 hours ago, Mothra said:

We've also heard nothing (again, as far as I can remember) about Adora's parents.

Jackie hinted Adora's mother wasn't very kind (2nd ep after the funeral) and Alan just told Camille in this ep that Joya (the names in this family!) was a cold, harsh person and that Camille acts like her. And given Camille has Adora's maiden name, I don't think there was a marriage. So yeah, Adora managed to have an out of wedlock child in this small town and still keep her Queen Bee status. She's got some power, probably mostly economic. 

Having a father might have really helped Camille. I know it's just ancedotal, but some of the most confident, grounded women I know had really good relationships with their dads. 

It just struck me, but what Anne's father said, that he was "happier" she was just killed and not raped, must of have hit home with Camille. I'll need to rewatch to see if Adams reacted to that comment. In my opinion death is not preferable to rape, but I guess I can understand his thinking.

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12 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

It just struck me, but what Anne's father said, that he was "happier" she was just killed and not raped, must of have hit home with Camille. I'll need to rewatch to see if Adams reacted to that comment. In my opinion death is not preferable to rape, but I guess I can understand his thinking.

Maybe he was saying, given that she was killed, he's glad she wasn't ALSO raped first? That's very reasonable. But if he's saying he'd rather have her dead than alive and having been raped, then that's really messed up. I know some people think that way, but I wouldn't think you'd say that about your daughter who is actually dead. I would think you'd be willing to make almost any deal with the universe to have her back, even if it meant she had been hurt in some way. 

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Didn't he also take it back straight away, saying it was a dumb thing to say and not true, or am I making that up? It sounded to me like he was trying to find solace in something, but realized it was senseless. 

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On 8/17/2018 at 12:22 AM, Buttless said:

There are no "magical Negros" in real life.

Kind of the point, isn't it?  I'm glad you said this; I think "magical Negroes" are what some white people would like to believe, with absolutely no basis in fact.  It's not that Gayla is perfect; it's that she's not allowed to be human, with human failings, in the minds of the white people she works for.  This kind of thinking holds minority people back because it's based on unrealistic assumptions.  There are magical disabled people, too.  I find that denying sexuality to the "magical" minorities is central to the definition.

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On 8/14/2018 at 12:46 PM, Mothra said:

I wonder if Becky was raped.  She is the only black cheerleader.  It looked to me that all the football players were white--in itself unusual, I think.  I wonder if racism protected Becky?

Racism has never protected black women from rape/sexual assault, just like misogyny has never protected women from sexual assault- women of color deal with both. 

Edited- I realized my response could come off as attacking you, that wasn’t my intention. I enjoy many of your posts across several boards. I just wanted to point out that thinking black people (especially black women) were inferior beings never stopped a man who wanted to rape a black woman from doing so (see years of chattel slavery and the forced breeding/enslavement of your own children that was rapant in US history). If anything racism makes black women easier targets because they do not have the social value of their white counter parts. 

The politics of this town seem to be fucked to the hills- I can see any minorities who had a chance to leave doing so for better opportunities, save a few families who stayed for one reason or another. 

Becky may have been spared (or not) for a variety of reasons- her parents may have forbid her for socializing with the football team off school property for fear something like that would happen. 

Edited by Scarlett45
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On 8/20/2018 at 11:06 AM, Mothra said:

Kind of the point, isn't it?  I'm glad you said this; I think "magical Negroes" are what some white people would like to believe, with absolutely no basis in fact.  It's not that Gayla is perfect; it's that she's not allowed to be human, with human failings, in the minds of the white people she works for.  This kind of thinking holds minority people back because it's based on unrealistic assumptions.  There are magical disabled people, too.  I find that denying sexuality to the "magical" minorities is central to the definition.

Very insightful. It’s another way to “other” a group (i.e. the magical disabled person), but rather than in an aggressive demeaning way (you’re sub human) it’s in a passive aggressive demeaning way “well you are just so ABOVE the human qualities we value (like sexuality) you can exist to make the white characters better”. It’s quite fascinating. Most of us are going to have an obvious knee jerk reaction to the violence of treating a minority group as sub human, but the “magical trope” affects us on a more subtle psychological level. 

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7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Racism has never protected black women from rape/sexual assault, just like misogyny has never protected women from sexual assault- women of color deal with both. 

Edited- I realized my response could come off as attacking you, that wasn’t my intention. I enjoy many of your posts across several boards. I just wanted to point out that thinking black people (especially black women) were inferior beings never stopped a man who wanted to rape a black woman from doing so (see years of chattel slavery and the forced breeding/enslavement of your own children that was rapant in US history). If anything racism makes black women easier targets because they do not have the social value of their white counter parts. 

The politics of this town seem to be fucked to the hills- I can see any minorities who had a chance to leave doing so for better opportunities, save a few families who stayed for one reason or another. 

Becky may have been spared (or not) for a variety of reasons- her parents may have forbid her for socializing with the football team off school property for fear something like that would happen. 

I absolutely take your point (and I enjoy your posts, too!).  I wasn't questioning the vulnerability of Becky to sexual attack, but rather whether--since this seems to have been a ritualized initiation rather than something the perpetrators saw as a criminal act--if that makes any sense--Becky was "valued" enough to make her "worthy" of the honor.  There was apparently no attempt to cover up the rapes, the boys depending on some kind of social contract with the cheerleader elite to protect them.  Even as adults, they were protected if we see Camille's response to the offered apology as a typical response.  I think it would be precisely the black woman's history of sexual abuse, especially in the south, that would somehow protect Becky--could the football players depend on someone who might be outside their social world to honor the unspoken contract?  And would they value a black cheerleader enough to make her part of the ritual rape?

I think I recall Becky's mentioning, or maybe it was Camille talking to Becky, something about mistreatment of Becky from the other cheerleaders, that Camille was the only one who was decent to her.  I wonder if she was seen by the football players the same way the cheerleaders saw her, as an outsider.

In any case, I need to keep telling myself that it's fiction!

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2 hours ago, Mothra said:

There was apparently no attempt to cover up the rapes, the boys depending on some kind of social contract with the cheerleader elite to protect them. 

 

2 hours ago, Mothra said:

could the football players depend on someone who might be outside their social world to honor the unspoken contract?  And would they value a black cheerleader enough to make her part of the ritual rape?

Ah I understand what you’re saying now. Given the social history of black women in the south, there is no way a black teenage girl could be convinced that being gang raped by a group of white teen boys was an “honor”- not ever. She may know that her parents couldn’t protect her if she was attacked (due to politics etc) but because of the racial/social hierarchy she couldn’t be manipulated into “going along” with the train as a mark of social acceptance. Nor would she think it would make her more popular.

 

On a less extreme level its like how black children are aware of racism and racial violence at the age of 4-5 in a way most white children just are not. 

 

It seems that the perpetrators of rape use rape culture and a lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves (much less society) that they aren’t really rapists “well I thought she wanted it cause she did xyz even though she was screaming no and asking me to stop.”- hence the man that apologized to Camille. Becky wasn’t as vulnerable to those mental gymnastics as an outsider in the social circle. 

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