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You know what's funny? I ran into this problem just now. Okay, I want to reintroduce a character. Do a search... Oh, I killed him some time ago. I'm just an enthusiast. If your job depends on this kind of stuff, you should learn to go back and check.

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23 minutes ago, Anduin said:

You know what's funny? I ran into this problem just now. Okay, I want to reintroduce a character. Do a search... Oh, I killed him some time ago. I'm just an enthusiast. If your job depends on this kind of stuff, you should learn to go back and check.

That's exactly why the stories I write come out more like soap operas. Oops, I killed that guy, um, okay, but he had a twin brother. Wait, I said earlier he was an only child, so it's a secret twin brother...who studied him for years with the intent of taking over his life. Yes! Problem solved!

I mostly write for myself so I can totally get away with crazy shit like that. I don't think I'd like writing something people would pay to read because then I'd get called out on my insanity. 

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The VC Andrews ghostwriter did that a lot. Garden of Shadows which he wrote has so many things different from Flowers in the Attic. Sure he's a ghostwriter. But wouldn't he have had to read it and take notes? Apparently not. In the Ruby series Ruby's mom is named Gabrielle for the first five books but then in the sixth book which is her telling the story suddenly she's Gabriel. 

The Babysitters Club series managed to have that despite the infamous chapter two which showed up in almost every book detail each girl, their looks, family, club and also info dumps on clients too and Ann M. Martin saying there was a book bible. Yet somehow Mary Anne's dead mother managed to show up in Stacey's Choice when Stacey lined up moms and others to help out her mom when she was sick while Stacey was in school and had to go to NYC for her promotion dinner in her dad's honor; the winner of Little Miss Stoneybrook which is for kids like 6-8 year somehow ends up a classmate for the 13 year old babysitters later, ages of siblings and clients' kids wrong at times, changing the names of Mary Anne's late mother and Kristy's stepsiblings mother's and stepfather's names among others. Although maybe that's four of the girls' dads ended up being named John/Jack/John/Jonathan.

How hard is it to remember details? If they don't have a master list or book bible then they should have one and if they do how are their still mistakes? Don't they check? Doesn't the editor catch them? 

Edited by andromeda331
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On 8/19/2020 at 6:37 PM, DearEvette said:

I think it was Nalini Singh, an author who writes several long running Urban Fantasy and Paranormal romance series, who spoke about the very extensive and intricate bible she keeps on her characters for her series. And I believe her.  Her characters in her books are from every race and background all over the world.  In her Psy/Changeling series, there is a character who first appears in about the second book as a fairly minor-ish character and there is a throwaway line about him that as you read you wouldn't even pick it up it was so throw away.  Fast forward to book #12 and he is a huge, major character and that tiny little throw away line from book 2 becomes a huge plot point in his book. It wasn't til I went back and re-read from the start that I picked up on the little line and realized it's significance.  I love stuff like that.

I ADORE Nalini Singh! And she's so AWESOME and GRACIOUS in real life, as well! Yes, I did meet her! I think I mentioned that upthread, or somewhere.

But one of her more recent Psy/Changeling stories were about characters I don't give a fig about, and wanted stories from other characters. I'm selfish that way, but I understand and respect Nalini will write for who she thinks will advance the stories.

On 8/19/2020 at 6:37 PM, DearEvette said:

It sounds like you have some pretty good luck with your in-person meetings with authors?  That is cool. 

I have been so fortunate in the meeting in person with the authors I read and whose stories I love. Anne Stuart writes such dark stories, but in real life? has the sweetest voice and demeanor. Linda Howard has the funniest stories about her dog, that I'm constantly asking her to use them in future books! And she told me that the character of Midas, the "fuzz bucket" of a Golden Retrieve puppy in Open Season, was based on one she'd had years before. The behavior of the dog with regard to looking at the hero as he took "her" seat in the car in Troublemaker, was definitely based on her first doggie.

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On 8/19/2020 at 8:44 PM, Mabinogia said:

That's exactly why the stories I write come out more like soap operas. Oops, I killed that guy, um, okay, but he had a twin brother. Wait, I said earlier he was an only child, so it's a secret twin brother...who studied him for years with the intent of taking over his life. Yes! Problem solved!

I mostly write for myself so I can totally get away with crazy shit like that. I don't think I'd like writing something people would pay to read because then I'd get called out on my insanity. 

"HE DOESN'T HAVE A HEAD!!!!!"

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10 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

"HE DOESN'T HAVE A HEAD!!!!!"

It is no coincidence that Soapdish is one of my favorite movies. 

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I hate Bob Woodward's books -- and not for any political reasons. His writing style is just so drab and dark and utterly joyless, which is fine if you're exposing corruption, but if you're trying to write about an actual person, well, that's not going to work. I'm specifically referring to Wired. Woodward clearly was more interested in writing about the Hollywood drug scene than trying to do a balanced and fair portrayal of John Belushi as a person. It's pretty telling that when the friends and family spoke out about how Woodward focused more on the drugs than anything else, he tried to pass the buck by saying, "Oh I wanted to, but all his family and friends ever wanted to talk about was the drugs!"

Except the whole reason they went to Woodward in the first place because they were ALREADY upset by all the exploitative drug stories that were already going around after John died, and wanted to portray him as a human being. So there's a bit of a flaw in your excuse there, Bob.

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I'm bloody sick of politics in fantasy. I get enough of that nonsense in real life. Dear authors: it's all right to focus on the adventure. Please do so.

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On 8/24/2020 at 5:53 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I hate Bob Woodward's books -- and not for any political reasons. His writing style is just so drab and dark and utterly joyless, which is fine if you're exposing corruption, but if you're trying to write about an actual person, well, that's not going to work. I'm specifically referring to Wired. Woodward clearly was more interested in writing about the Hollywood drug scene than trying to do a balanced and fair portrayal of John Belushi as a person. It's pretty telling that when the friends and family spoke out about how Woodward focused more on the drugs than anything else, he tried to pass the buck by saying, "Oh I wanted to, but all his family and friends ever wanted to talk about was the drugs!"

Except the whole reason they went to Woodward in the first place because they were ALREADY upset by all the exploitative drug stories that were already going around after John died, and wanted to portray him as a human being. So there's a bit of a flaw in your excuse there, Bob.

It shows Carl Bernstein's importance to those Watergate stories. Facts are important but so is context and the human factor.

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This might be controversial, but Sailing to Sarantium by Guy Gavriel Kay. I'd always heard it was pretty good, so I finally bought a copy. Decent opening. However, it rapidly goes downhill. The protagonist is strongarmed into doing something he doesn't want to do. Sure, it might turn out well. But the point is that he didn't want to do it. I've had some recent experience with alternately being forced and being nagged into doing things. I didn't enjoy and didn't get anything out of the experiences. I wanted him to tell everyone to fuck off and leave him alone.

If I'd read it before the middle of 2016, maybe I'd have enjoyed it. But I can't. Still, I didn't hate his style. Maybe I should try one of his other books.

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Not sure if this is an UO but I think Harriet the Spy’s friends were awful for how they read her PRIVATE journal and then hazed her just because they didn’t like what she wrote about them. Even if they were mean, everybody has unfiltered thoughts about everyone that aren’t pretty, even their own friends. They shouldn’t have read her journal in the first place. It mystifies me that she’d want them back in the end after the way they treated her.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Not sure if this is an UO but I think Harriet the Spy’s friends were awful for how they read her PRIVATE journal and then hazed her just because they didn’t like what she wrote about them. Even if they were mean, everybody has unfiltered thoughts about everyone that aren’t pretty, even their own friends. They shouldn’t have read her journal in the first place. It mystifies me that she’d want them back in the end after the way they treated her.

I agree! It seemed one of those 'they're your friends so you must forgive them straight away  and sweep it all under the rug or you alone are a bad person' deals! 

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1 hour ago, Blergh said:

I agree! It seemed one of those 'they're your friends so you must forgive them straight away  and sweep it all under the rug or you alone are a bad person' deals! 

Oh no, even worse, she was made to feel like she had to apologize to them. For what?! So she wrote crap about them in her diary, that didn’t give them the right to dump blue paint on her, etc. Maybe she was wrong to retaliate but they didn’t have to join the school bully to make her life a living hell either. More importantly: JANIE DID NOT HAVE TO READ HER DIARY IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE FUCKING CLASS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And for the record, even though Harriet apologized, neither Janie nor Sport apologized for anything at the end, let alone realized they shouldn’t have taken her journal in the first place.

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2 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Screw the Dr Suess-banners!!

So you're saying screw the Dr. Seuss estate. They're the ones pulling the book and choosing to no longer sell it.

Which, good! Naturally conservatives will yell about Seuss being "canceled" due to precious liberal sensitivities, but who cares? The Seuss estate is doing what's right, and there are loads of other Dr. Seuss books still available.

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Yes!screw the estate for being cowardly.  I'd say it of Ted if he were alive & doing the same.  But only after checking to see if the estate was holding a gun to his head.

Burning books is **never right. That's setting fire to a past that made the present possible.  The written word is testament to lived experience, wild imagination, and a witness to man's ability to evolve and grow. 

"but he has other books!!" made me lmfao, tho.  If the mob has their way, and the estate folds again, that won't be true in ten years.  

Or maybe it won't even take that long.  Boil that dust speck!!  But in essential oils, plz.

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11 hours ago, voiceover said:

Burning books is **never right.

The books aren't being burned; there won't be new editions published. The vast majority of books go out of print. Publishers can't be forced to keep their whole catalogues continually in print.

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12 hours ago, voiceover said:

Yes!screw the estate for being cowardly.  I'd say it of Ted if he were alive & doing the same.  But only after checking to see if the estate was holding a gun to his head.

Burning books is **never right. That's setting fire to a past that made the present possible.  The written word is testament to lived experience, wild imagination, and a witness to man's ability to evolve and grow. 

"but he has other books!!" made me lmfao, tho.  If the mob has their way, and the estate folds again, that won't be true in ten years.  

Or maybe it won't even take that long.  Boil that dust speck!!  But in essential oils, plz.

Look at this as good news for those that already own the books.  They will now be worth hundreds or thousands, or maybe even tens of thousands of dollars. 

I have to feel differently about people who own the rights who choose to no longer publish than publishers and bookstores censoring people who want to get their stories out.  And I never read any of these books, so I have no idea if I think they are racist or not.  The only Seuss book I ever read was Green Eggs and Ham.  Probably because I was a picky eater and my mom was desperate to do something about it.  

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I don't understand why they can't change the illustrations that are offensive and keeping making the books.  

No one is offended by the stories.  But even granting that some of the images are racist and/or offensive, it seems to be a small minority of them and I don't see why they can't be changed.  

Stories get changed and adjusted all the time, for cultural And other reasons. We arent still reading the original grimm fairy tales. If we did we'd all be mortified.  They changed the stories to make them relatable and more palatable for modern audiences.  I dont see why the same can't happen here.  Especially when it's not even the story itself but the images that are offensive.  As mentioned it's the publisher and estates decision so it's not like there is any legal reason it can't be done. 

Edited by DrSpaceman73
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On 3/3/2021 at 10:38 AM, Black Knight said:

The books aren't being burned; there won't be new editions published. The vast majority of books go out of print. Publishers can't be forced to keep their whole catalogues continually in print.

I have so many authors I love whose books have gone out of print.  If I want to get a copy I can pay $$$ for older editions or I can hope against hope my library can get it through an Interlibrary Loan.  What I can't do is force publishers to reprint them!

I don't know anyone who has any of those "cancelled" titles on their shelves.  As Dr Seuss books go most of them were relatively obscure.  The people beating their breasts over this are also people I highly doubt have ever read any of them - and likely only know Seuss from the classics that have been made into movies/TV specials.  

Edited by WinnieWinkle
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56 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

I have so many authors I love whose books have gone out of print.  If I want to get a copy I can pay $$$ for older editions or I can hope against hope my library can get it through an Interlibary Loan.  What I can't do is force publishers to reprint them!

I don't know anyone who has any of those "cancelled" titles on their shelves.  As Dr Seuss books go most of them were relatively obscure.  The people beating their breasts over this are also people I highly doubt have ever read any of them - and likely only know Seuss from the classics that have been made into movies/TV specials.  

This is exactly the case from what I've seen.

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I own a 30-year-old anthology I picked up secondhand when my kids were small that has two of them in it. I'll say that I liked the idea of McElligot's Pool and leave it at that because if you flip through the pages now there's a huge sense of "Oh, wow, that really is right there, isn't it?"

It's a business decision as much as anything. Some article I was reading pulled sales figures that showed the most popular of this particular batch of books has only sold a couple of thousand copies over the last several years. That's generally enough to make any publisher decide it's not worth continuing to carry the title, even before you get to the problematic and outdated illustrations. There are whole webstores devoted to secondhand and out of print titles if you just have to have them. But that's not even what people are frantically buying up anyway.

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43 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I own a 30-year-old anthology I picked up secondhand when my kids were small that has two of them in it. I'll say that I liked the idea of McElligot's Pool and leave it at that because if you flip through the pages now there's a huge sense of "Oh, wow, that really is right there, isn't it?"

It's a business decision as much as anything. Some article I was reading pulled sales figures that showed the most popular of this particular batch of books has only sold a couple of thousand copies over the last several years. That's generally enough to make any publisher decide it's not worth continuing to carry the title, even before you get to the problematic and outdated illustrations. There are whole webstores devoted to secondhand and out of print titles if you just have to have them. But that's not even what people are frantically buying up anyway.

Right. If I'm making several thousand different widgets every year and some start not selling much or at all, why would I continue making the non selling widgets?

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1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Right. If I'm making several thousand different widgets every year and some start not selling much or at all, why would I continue making the non selling widgets?

But why not just stop making the widgets instead of virtue signaling that you are no longer making harmful widgets?

And widgets.  I'm back in accounting class.  LOL.  I swear I spent too many minutes pondering what widgets were.

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1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But why not just stop making the widgets instead of virtue signaling that you are no longer making harmful widgets?

And widgets.  I'm back in accounting class.  LOL.  I swear I spent too many minutes pondering what widgets were.

nm

Edited by peacheslatour

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43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But why not just stop making the widgets instead of virtue signaling that you are no longer making harmful widgets?

They could have just dropped those books without saying anything but IIRC at least some of those titles had already been flagged as problematic so I think this would still have become an issue.

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15 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I don't understand why they can't change the illustrations that are offensive and keeping making the books.  

No one is offended by the stories.  But even granting that some of the images are racist and/or offensive, it seems to be a small minority of them and I don't see why they can't be changed.  

Stories get changed and adjusted all the time, for cultural And other reasons. We arent still reading the original grimm fairy tales. If we did we'd all be mortified.  They changed the stories to make them relatable and more palatable for modern audiences.  I dont see why the same can't happen here.  Especially when it's not even the story itself but the images that are offensive.  As mentioned it's the publisher and estates decision so it's not like there is any legal reason it can't be done. 

We live in a world that is becoming more and more polarized.  All or nothing, no middle ground.  What you are saying makes a lot of sense.  Have an open and honest discussion about the issues and try to come up with some sort of compromise which makes the most sense.  They could even add a page to the front of the books talking about why there were changes made to the books.  A teachable moment parents can have with their children. 

Edited by icemiser69 · Reason: spelling
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16 hours ago, WinnieWinkle said:

They could have just dropped those books without saying anything but IIRC at least some of those titles had already been flagged as problematic so I think this would still have become an issue.

I'm a cynic when it comes to corporations caving to this kind of pressure but I think they made a virtue signaling statement with these titles that weren't selling because they were worried that it would spread to the entire Seuss library. 

Cat in the Hat was already getting dragged into it.  And that would have hit them financially.

13 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

We live in a world that is becoming more and more polarized.  All or nothing, no middle ground.  What you are saying makes a lot of sense.  Have an open and honest discussion about the issues and try to come up with some sort of compromise which makes the most sense.  They could even add a page to the front of the books talking about why there were changes made to the books.  A teachable moment parents can have with their children. 

And that is why how they handled this sucked.  This was perhaps the best scenario where a conversation about the issues today could happen because there was a history there where the author came down on a messy mix of both the right and wrong side of history during WWII era but they also had some children's books, like the Sneeches, were they could say "this is my rebuttal" to your argument against Dr Seuss.

I'm not sure a warning page would really do anything or be a compromise for the simple reason that is more of a trigger warning or a bone to appease the forming mob than a teachable moment.  If the parent is the type to have a teachable moment then they will see the problem in the content or look through it before reading it with the kid. 

I'd be more inclined to the idea of changing the art and adding an explanation page as a teachable moment if they also published the book under "Theo LeSieg" which was Suess' pen name when he wrote the book and someone else illustrated it.  But again, they would never do that because they want the money Suess' name brings so they are willing to stop printing books that don't sell, because they would have any way for lack of sales, and then virtue signal that they did it because they assessed them problematic.

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On 8/24/2019 at 10:30 AM, Homily said:

Yeah I never got the Amy hate that was certainly prevalent back when I was a kid and discovering Little Women for the first time.  Yes she got to marry the prize guy (not that there was a lot of competition) but only after Jo turned him down and all of them grew up a bit more and moved on with their lives.  Amy was a pretty normal kid really and turned out to be a nice woman.

The only Judy Blume books I liked were the Fudge books.  I couldn't stand her books aimed at tween girls - even when I was a tween girl.

I was too old to read any Judy Blume books at the right age by the time they came out, but I recently read the Fudge books as a sixty something adult, and I thought they were hysterically funny. 

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14 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I was too old to read any Judy Blume books at the right age by the time they came out, but I recently read the Fudge books as a sixty something adult, and I thought they were hysterically funny. 

Oh, god, I remember those books, too! Yeah, I loved them as a kid, they were hilarious. 

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59 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I was too old to read any Judy Blume books at the right age by the time they came out, but I recently read the Fudge books as a sixty something adult, and I thought they were hysterically funny. 

Same with me.  I read the Fudge books because I stumbled onto the TV show (it starred Eve Plumb as the mother) and enjoyed that so went looking for the books.  Prior to that my only experience with Judy Blume was as a librarian when I had to explain to to the children's librarian that just because a book was written by Judy Blume that didn't mean it belonged in the children's section - she moved Forever to YA after I got her to check the reviews!

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On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2021 at 2:04 PM, WinnieWinkle said:

I don't know anyone who has any of those "cancelled" titles on their shelves.  As Dr Seuss books go most of them were relatively obscure. 

To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street and If I Ran The Zoo aren't his most well-known titles, but they aren't obscure.  I know people who have/did have one or the other at some point in their lives.  The other titles are pretty obscure.  I worked in a bookstore for 11 years, and don't think that I saw any of the others at all.

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Just saw a comment about Tana French’s Dublin Murder Squad books. The first two books were good. The third, I enjoyed, but the fourth was just freaking dull. So dull that in the middle of the big interview scene with the murderer, I put it down and picked up something else, and then forgot to finish it until like a week later. It was just bad.

I can see how the first two books could be made into standalone movies, but a series? I think there are better books out there.

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On 1/19/2021 at 8:16 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Not sure if this is an UO but I think Harriet the Spy’s friends were awful for how they read her PRIVATE journal and then hazed her just because they didn’t like what she wrote about them. Even if they were mean, everybody has unfiltered thoughts about everyone that aren’t pretty, even their own friends. They shouldn’t have read her journal in the first place. It mystifies me that she’d want them back in the end after the way they treated her.

This. I like Harriet but I never liked how her "friends" treated her after they read her private journal. It was a total invasion of her privacy and so wrong how she had to run after them and ask THEIR forgiveness. I also don't think that Harriet was being mean per se, in her writing, I think she just wrote her perceptions of what she saw, and thought, unfiltered. I wish that she had found friends that treated her better also.

On 3/3/2021 at 8:08 AM, Katy M said:

Look at this as good news for those that already own the books.  They will now be worth hundreds or thousands, or maybe even tens of thousands of dollars. 

I have to feel differently about people who own the rights who choose to no longer publish than publishers and bookstores censoring people who want to get their stories out.  And I never read any of these books, so I have no idea if I think they are racist or not.  The only Seuss book I ever read was Green Eggs and Ham.  Probably because I was a picky eater and my mom was desperate to do something about it.  

Did Sam-I-Am cure you? 😀

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1 hour ago, susannah said:

Did Sam-I-Am cure you? 😀

Ha ha.  Not sure, but I am less picky than I was as a child.  Might just be natural.

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On 2/21/2016 at 6:41 AM, GreekGeek said:

While we're on the subject of dystopias, Ira Levin, best known for "Rosemary's Baby" and "The Stepford Wives," wrote a very underrated novel of the future called "This Perfect Day."

 

On 2/21/2016 at 11:20 AM, SmithW6079 said:

I loved "This Perfect Day" (although I thought the ending was a little weak). There's a society where conformity and inoffensiveness are run amok.

 

On 2/29/2016 at 11:28 AM, Pepper Mostly said:

I still have my beat up copy of This Perfect Day that I probably bought at the drugstore or Woolworth's or someplace, and re read from time to time. Agree that it is underrated, its a fave of mine. "thank Uni" shudder.

I dredged up these old posts to comment.

I also loved This Perfect Day. It could be a marvelous movie, too, IMHO. It’s been a while since I re-read it, but I do every once in a while.

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