Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little House" Series

[nodorothyparker]

I guess I see this in the same vein as the decision in the last couple of years to change the World Fantasy Awards from a bust of H.P. Lovecraft known as a "Howard" to something more innocuously fantastical.  (Note that I'm not saying Wilder and Lovecraft are exactly the same, as he could be pretty outspokenly racist even for his time in some of his works and correspondence.)  That change officially happened in 2015.  Lovecraft is still considered hugely influential in fantasy and horror fiction.  He still has tons of devotees who read and discuss his works, and his books are still widely available, as I know firsthand because my husband has a whole bookshelf of his stuff.  References to his creations can be found in music, gaming, and pop culture well beyond the genre.  The only real difference is that modern award winners who don't share his views, especially people of color, aren't being put in the uncomfortable position of having to accept an award for their achievements that looks like a man who likely wouldn't have regarded them as any more human than so many of his mythical monsters. 

While this entire subject can still stir up passionate debate among Lovecraft fans, the point is that his legacy hasn't gone anywhere.  Wilder's legacy will be fine too.  We can still read and discuss her for pages and share her books with our kids as one part of the story of America.

[Lyanna19]

What is this world coming to? 

What historical figure would measure up to today's political correctness standards?

Darwin says there are five races of mankind, the Caucasian being the superior race, I don't see anybody going nuts over what he says.

The term Indian went to native, to first nation, to indigenous, fifty years from now we will be considered racist for using any one of these terms.

Does anyone actually think Laura was racist? I never have and even when rereading her books I never get that feeling from her, maybe ma was, I say maybe, because I'm sure ma didn't even know what racist meant. As for pa, we all know he was the farthest thing from being racist, he actually spoke up when ma said something about them. And I think it utterly amazing that Laura as a little girl caught up on what her parents was saying.

All I can say is what next? 

[CherryAmes]

10 hours ago, Lyanna19 said:

Darwin says there are five races of mankind, the Caucasian being the superior race, I don't see anybody going nuts over what he says.

A lot of people completely reject what Darwin says, but not for reasons of racism I think.   Still he is a pretty polarizing figure.

I do agree with you though that I never thought of Laura herself as being racist,  If, as an adult, she reflected the general views of most of her contemporaries is that truly something that would surprise anyone?  With regard to the books themselves I don't think there is anything wrong, actually, with letting children see that the world was once a very different place. Ma wasn't shown as racist so much as fearful - and not without reason.  The way First  Nations were treated was wrong - is still wrong - but that doesn't mean that white settlers of the pioneer era had nothing to fear, even if they brought much of the violence upon themselves.  Would someone writing a story today and setting it in pioneer times never write about Indians attacking settlements?   Kidnapping children?  That would be just as wrong as writing about those times and not writing about the negative things that the government of the time were doing to the Indians, and to the duped white settlers too for that matter!

Edited July 2, 2018 by CherryAmes

[HyeChaps]

IIRC, Laura took a positive point of view about POC in a debate after she moved to Mansfield. 

[OtterMommy]

Am I the only person who thinks this Award business is no big deal?  The only reason LIW's name was on it was that she was the first person to receive it.  It could have been the Beverly Cleary Award (who, I think, was the next one to win it?  I could be wrong on that...I know she did win it, though).   LIW didn't start the award herself, and she certainly didn't fund it.  And, no, I don't see this as a step towards book banning.  The content of these books has long been known and it hasn't stopped anyone from reading them.  And, really, how many kids and casual readers even knew about this award before this announcement?  I just don't see how this is a big deal. 

[Neko]

7 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Am I the only person who thinks this Award business is no big deal?  The only reason LIW's name was on it was that she was the first person to receive it.  It could have been the Beverly Cleary Award (who, I think, was the next one to win it?  I could be wrong on that...I know she did win it, though).   LIW didn't start the award herself, and she certainly didn't fund it.  And, no, I don't see this as a step towards book banning.  The content of these books has long been known and it hasn't stopped anyone from reading them.  And, really, how many kids and casual readers even knew about this award before this announcement?  I just don't see how this is a big deal. 

Nah, I'm with you.  You can sit in the corner, with me. ;)

[nodorothyparker]

14 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Am I the only person who thinks this Award business is no big deal?  The only reason LIW's name was on it was that she was the first person to receive it.  It could have been the Beverly Cleary Award (who, I think, was the next one to win it?  I could be wrong on that...I know she did win it, though).   LIW didn't start the award herself, and she certainly didn't fund it.  And, no, I don't see this as a step towards book banning.  The content of these books has long been known and it hasn't stopped anyone from reading them.  And, really, how many kids and casual readers even knew about this award before this announcement?  I just don't see how this is a big deal. 

I'm with you too.  IIRC, Prairie Fires mentions that part of the reason she was given the award in the first place and that it was named after her was because the association never honored her for any of the individual books and felt obligated to acknowledge her in the last years of her life.  She was a runner up for the group's annual Newberry Medal for excellence with several of the books in the series but never won.  So the group made up a new award that's only been awarded sporadically over the years that most people probably never even realized existed before this.

[hendersonrocks]

I am firmly on the not-a-big-deal side of this (the award can and should be named for whoever/whatever the giving organization wants it to be named for, and thinks is appropriate, at any moment in time). Laura Ingalls Wilder isn’t being erased. This award just isn’t named after her anymore. C’est la vie.

For what it’s worth, I found this a helpful post. If I had kiddos I were reading Little House books with (as a teacher or my own), I would definitely utilize this as a resource.

http://littlehouseontheprairie.com/historical-perspective-or-racism-in-little-house-on-the-prairie/

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 7/2/2018 at 4:55 PM, OtterMommy said:

Am I the only person who thinks this Award business is no big deal?

Maybe 'big deal' is relative, but here's what bugs me; we live in a society that's more polarized than ever, whether its about race or gender, and if it isn't a big deal then why take Ingalls' name off of the award at all? Somebody decided that they cared or were offended, and it mattered enough that the foundation decided that it was easier to strike her name from the title. Most likely so that they wouldn't be accused of being sympathetic to a woman who's been dead for sixty one years, longer than I've been alive. Like many people, I had never heard of the award before this happened, and if its so obscure that half of us never knew it existed, what's been accomplished, exactly?

[wanton87]

On 9/21/2014 at 6:23 PM, Queena said:

I wonder why LIW didn't include Manly's sister Laura in Farmer Boy? Is it because she was older, and maybe married while Manly was a child?

Yes, I seem to recall reading that this was the reason that she was excluded from the books. For similar reasons, the son Perley was excluded from the books as well, because he was too young to be worth mentioning at the time the events in the book took place.

[smittykins]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Perley was even born during the Farmer Boy years. 

[CherryAmes]

Farmer Boy was supposed to be about Almanzo at the age of 9, according to Wikipedia Perley was born when Almanzo was 12.  That's a pretty big age difference and I would speculate that there may have been a few pregnancies in the the years between the two brothers that ended in miscarriage or stillbirth.  A very sad reality of the times.

[Neko]

Well, I started another re-read, and I'm determined to finish it, this time.  I have always been lukewarm on "Little House in the Big Woods".  It has a lot of good moments, but it's not one of my favorite books of the series.  That's probably because I far prefer the later Laura years, from "By the Shores of Silver Lake" on.  But, "Big Woods" has a pig's bladder balloon, so that's pretty cool.  And Cousin Charley's dumb ass getting stung by bees.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Shakma

[Snow Apple]

Living in the path of the polar vortex these past few days with -55 wind chills, of course I had to reread The Long Winter. Thank goodness I didn't have to twist hay to keep warm.

[HazelEyes4325]

35 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

Living in the path of the polar vortex these past few days with -55 wind chills, of course I had to reread The Long Winter. Thank goodness I didn't have to twist hay to keep warm.

I'm impressed you could read that in the cold!  I can only read that book in the heat of July or August!  

Someone once asked me what Seasonal Affective Disorder was like.  I told them to read The Long Winter.

[Snow Apple]

29 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

 

Someone once asked me what Seasonal Affective Disorder was like.  I told them to read The Long Winter.

Also These Happy Golden Years with the poor woman that Laura lived with while teaching. 

As a child, I thought she was so mean and scary, but now I understand it was the isolation, the winter darkness, and maybe also postpartum depression. 

[Lyanna19]

On 01/02/2019 at 6:25 PM, Snow Apple said:

Also These Happy Golden Years with the poor woman that Laura lived with while teaching. 

As a child, I thought she was so mean and scary, but now I understand it was the isolation, the winter darkness, and maybe also postpartum depression. 

Plus putting up with a young pretty girl in your house with only a blanket between beds for privacy. I can't imagine...as much as I feel/felt sympathy for Laura, if I put myself into the other womans shoes, I can emphasize.  

[CherryAmes]

On 2/1/2019 at 6:44 PM, HazelEyes4325 said:

I'm impressed you could read that in the cold!  I can only read that book in the heat of July or August!  

Same here.  That's been my "go to" book for a super hot summer day for years.  Come to think if it I don't think I have a "go to" book for a polar vortex winter day.  Gotta give that some thought :).

[Neko]

I have a feeling The Long Winter is going to disturb me more, now that I'm reading it as an adult.  The last time I read it, I think I was 14, and it didn't really hit me, how close they were to death.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Shakma

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Same here.  That's been my "go to" book for a super hot summer day for years.  Come to think if it I don't think I have a "go to" book for a polar vortex winter day.  Gotta give that some thought :).

I like Elizabeth von Arnim's The Enchanted April for cold/rainy days - some women escape the grey London weather by going to Italy for a month. (No snow where I live.) The book's in the public domain, so you can even download it for free. It was made into a wonderful 1991 movie, too.

[nodorothyparker]

On 2/1/2019 at 6:08 PM, Snow Apple said:

Living in the path of the polar vortex these past few days with -55 wind chills, of course I had to reread The Long Winter. Thank goodness I didn't have to twist hay to keep warm.

I do this too every winter for a "it could be so much worse" perspective, usually after we've been shut up a couple of snow days and I feel like I'm about to snap and throttle the kids.  Since I already know it ends okay, it usually helps back off the winter blahs at least a little.

I was an adult before it registered with me that a lot of the dullness and lethargy she's describing are the effects of malnourishment and slow starvation.  As a kid it sounds cozy with everyone huddled around the stove spending time telling stories and just being together.  You don't think so much about it being so cold inside the uninsulated house that water is freezing indoors or that they're sitting around in the dark living on tea and a couple of slices of bread a day.

[Neko]

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I do this too every winter for a "it could be so much worse" perspective, usually after we've been shut up a couple of snow days and I feel like I'm about to snap and throttle the kids.  Since I already know it ends okay, it usually helps back off the winter blahs at least a little.

I was an adult before it registered with me that a lot of the dullness and lethargy she's describing are the effects of malnourishment and slow starvation.  As a kid it sounds cozy with everyone huddled around the stove spending time telling stories and just being together.  You don't think so much about it being so cold inside the uninsulated house that water is freezing indoors or that they're sitting around in the dark living on tea and a couple of slices of bread a day.

Which undoubtedly contributed to the family's health problems, later in life.  I remember seeing a picture of Carrie as a teenager, and feeling shocked at how haggard she looked.  Mary, too, but her early illness probably added to that, as well.  Compare that to the times we are currently living in, when people still look like they're in their 20's when they're well into their 30's.  Crazy.

[proserpina65]

On ‎02‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 9:20 PM, CherryAmes said:

Same here.  That's been my "go to" book for a super hot summer day for years.  Come to think if it I don't think I have a "go to" book for a polar vortex winter day.  Gotta give that some thought :).

The Long Winter is my go to read whenever we have a big snowstorm, usually once a winter.  Haven't had a big enough one yet this year, though.

[Neko]

Re-read Little House On the Prairie.  Holy cheesballs, the racism.  I knew this book was racist when I was a kid, but it hit me even harder, as an adult.  Mrs. Scott is the worst, but Ma is no better.  I realize it must have been scary to live among Indians when you'd never met any before and didn't know their customs, or their language, but Ma hates them on sight, and can't even deal with them.  I can honestly say that this has become my least favorite book, on re-read.  It makes me uncomfortable. 😕

[Ceindreadh]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:10 PM, proserpina65 said:

The Long Winter is my go to read whenever we have a big snowstorm, usually once a winter.  Haven't had a big enough one yet this year, though.

The Long Winter is my least favourite of the series. 

Partly because I’d I’d take get to read it until years after I’d read the rest of the books - for some reason it never showed up in the local library and I only found it by chance in a second hand bookshop. 

But also because there’s so much of it written from outside Laura’s perspective that it just didn’t feel like a proper ‘little house’ book. 

(And no, I don’t feel the same way about Farmer Boy because that doesn’t jump around to different POVs)

[Homily]

12 hours ago, Shakma said:

  I realize it must have been scary to live among Indians when you'd never met any before and didn't know their customs, or their language, but Ma hates them on sight, and can't even deal with them.

Ma's attitude was very consistent with the times.  She had heard horror stories for years, no doubt, about the "wild savages".  I much prefer reading a book that honestly conveys the way things were at the time - racism and all - then a book written in the present day that puts 21st century ideals into the mouthes of people living a very different life 150 years ago.

But that said I totally agree with you about how some books make you uncomfortable!  There are some children's books I used to love that I just can't read anymore - certain Enid Blyton's as one example.  I  did not notice the racism and elitism when I first read those books but they are so jarring to me now that I won't read them again and I don't think I'd give them to a child to read either.  Books like the Little House books though I'd rather have kids read and use the things that are problematic as 'teachable moments'.  With Blyton et al - nah, not worth it.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Homily

[Neko]

I realize Ma was very much a person of her time, but I can see why some Native Americans have had issues with the book being read to their kids, today.  Wasn't there a Native American girl who cried when the book was read in her class, because of the, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" line?

So, yeah, it's a subject that definitely warrants discussion, especially if it's going to be read to young children. 

I never read any Edith Blyton.  Was she the author who wrote those "golliwog" books?

[Homily]

1 hour ago, Shakma said:

I never read any Edith Blyton.  Was she the author who wrote those "golliwog" books?

She wrote a series of books for pre-schoolers about Noddy and there definitely was a golliwog in them but I never read those.  I was deeply into the books aimed more at the "tween-ager" - the Adventure books, the Secret Seven and the Famous 5.  Anyway reading some of those books now I am amazed at what went right over my head as a child!  

[Sharpie66]

If anyone else listens to podcasts, check out Unspoiled!Book Club’s recent ep on Little House in the Big Woods. The Unspoiled! network covers things with one person familiar with the book/tv show and one newbie. 

[smittykins]

Thanks for the suggestion, @Sharpie66.

[Sharpie66]

Quick correction: even though the one experienced with the material/one newbie is how Unspoiled usually covers their shows, in this one, Natasha has read the series, just not since she was a kid, so she doesn’t remember much about it. One of the first things they discuss is the recent award renaming and why.

[catlover79]

I just put holds on Pioneer Girl and The Wilder Life from my library. The entire discussion here has intrigued me.

[catlover79]

Thanks for recommending The Wilder Life. I checked it out of the library and finished it last night. It was a lot of fun. 😊

[voiceover]

On 1/28/2019 at 12:02 AM, Neko said:

  I have always been lukewarm on "Little House in the Big Woods".  It has a lot of good moments, but it's not one of my favorite books of the series.  

Well, I get that reax: it's about *little girls, and the adventures described are *little ones (though the maple candy chapter fascinated this Midwesterner!)

But it holds a special place in my heart for Pa's most memorable line.  It's after their fun cousin departs, having diplomatically declared she liked both blue AND brown eyes.

Laura & Mary, obliged to do the chores with their "post-fun hangover" raging, get into another squabble about blue v. brown eyes, and Laura (quite rightly) smacks Mary right in the puss after the blue-eyed blonde decrees her genetic superiority.

After a spanking (IIRC) for that behavior, Laura tearfully asks her father: You don't think blue eyes are better do you?

And with a gentle smile, Pa says: "Well, Laura, my eyes are brown."

Still gets this brown-eyed girl in the feels.

[smittykins]

I’m sure it’s the 20th century perspective talking, but I’ve always felt that Mary should have gotten a stern talking-to for baiting her younger sister.

[wanton87]

I think it might have been in this same thread? But someone here a while back, mentioned that the whole brown hair/eyes vs blond hair, blue eyes, competition between Mary and Laura, was entirely made up by Laura, for the purposes of the books. I believe that the person that posted this, mentioned the publication in which Laura revealed this, but the title escapes me?

[smittykins]

I want to say that she included this scene in Pioneer Girl, but I’d have to look at it again to make sure.

[Snow Apple]

Yes, I read it was made up, but I'm sure the feeling behind Mary being the golden girl and their mother favoring her is real. Mary probably egged that rivalry on.

Mary even admitted in a later book that she was showing off with what a good girl she was and deserve to be slapped for her pride.

[wanton87]

@smittykins. Yes, I believe it was the Pioneer Girl manuscript in which it was mentioned. I have it, but haven’t even read halfway through it yet, so I haven’t come to that part yet.

@Snow Apple. It wasn’t until much later that I learned that the books; while based on the families real life, included a lot of made up events that Laura threw in, so that they would appeal more to children. Not so much fictional I suppose, as much as a lot of added filler, along with a lot of real life events being left out. A girl over at MovieChat posted that she read a book that mentioned that of the “3 Nellie’s”, one of them (I think it was the first one, Nellie Owens) was actually a nice girl that wanted to be on friendly terms with Laura. But Laura spurned her friendship.

[proserpina65]

On ‎08‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 6:37 PM, wanton87 said:

I think it might have been in this same thread? But someone here a while back, mentioned that the whole brown hair/eyes vs blond hair, blue eyes, competition between Mary and Laura, was entirely made up by Laura, for the purposes of the books. I believe that the person that posted this, mentioned the publication in which Laura revealed this, but the title escapes me?

Whether or not the incident as described was based on real life, we can still judge the actions of fictional characters.  I'm totally with Laura on that one.  Mary was a spoiled brat, at least in certain situations.

[HyeChaps]

And Ma was a bitch for bringing it up in the first place. 

[Snow Apple]

I feel bad Mary went blind but why does she always get the warmest seat in the house while the others are out there working hard and/or walking to and from school in the cold? The one time she shared was when Laura and Carrie almost got lost in the blizzard and she still made sure it was known as *her* seat.

[smittykins]

Because she’s Poor Blind St. Mary whom everyone else is supposed to sacrifice for.

[Homily]

I know people couldn't travel as easily back then of course but I've always found it odd that Laura never seems to have gone back to visit Ma or Mary in the years after Pa's death.  Was this an indication that there was an estrangement or was it just plain old lack of funds to do the trips?

[Athena]

4 hours ago, Homily said:

I know people couldn't travel as easily back then of course but I've always found it odd that Laura never seems to have gone back to visit Ma or Mary in the years after Pa's death.  Was this an indication that there was an estrangement or was it just plain old lack of funds to do the trips?

Laura's family had moved a couple times since leaving De Smet and she was living in Missouri at the time of Pa's death. From the First Four Years, Laura and Almanzo suffered a lot in their early married years. I don't think Laura had good memories of De Smet after all those hard years. Laura and Almanzo didn't have money. Even though Laura began writing for a newspaper in the 1910s, they depended on Rose financially and they all had no money after 1929 which is why they started the Little House series. 

There may have been a little estrangement, but I think money was the bigger factor.

[PennyPlain]

On 9/2/2019 at 3:42 PM, Athena said:

There may have been a little estrangement, but I think money was the bigger factor.

Agreed.  I think we have to remember that both Mary and "Ma" died before Laura started writing the Little House books.  The Wilder's may not have been starving to that point but they were far from financially secure.  I think the problem for a lot of us is we read the books that show a loving and united family and we assume that they must have remained a single unit all their lives - without looking around at most families we know and acknowledging that lots of times siblings go their separate ways and get together rarely - sometimes never.  Especially if they live any great distance.  Doesn't have to mean there was any real reason, any estrangement.  Just building your own life.  

[nodorothyparker]

Prairie Fires tells you right out of the gate that Laura hadn't seen her mother in more than 20 years when she got the news she had died and very strongly implies that for all her stern but loving portrayal of her in the series had some real issues with Caroline that surfaced periodically in Laura's farm newspaper columns.  Rose would level some of those same criticisms of being a cold unloving mother at Laura in her own work throughout her life.  Beyond that, there were a couple of issues at play.  The Wilders weren't exactly rolling in dough for quite a while after the books started to catch on (It was the Depression.) and Almanzo was in poor health a lot as they got older.  They curiously did drive back to De Smet for whatever their Pioneer or Settler Days were after everybody but Carrie and Grace were gone.

Rose was a notorious spendthrift and loved to tell people she was supporting her poor country bumpkin parents, but Prairie Fires makes it clear there was a lot of money flowing back and forth between mother and daughter to the point that the Wilders were likely supporting her at times even with a relatively successful writing career.  

[Snow Apple]

I'm going into the third week of Stay At Home. I think it's time to reread The Long Winter. LOL

[HyeChaps]

I reread it three weeks ago, then finished the series, then reread the Rose series.

Comfort food.

[smittykins]

I should pull out Pioneer Girl.