All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[MysteryGuest]

But this is what they do.  They give you what you want, Michael (at least some people wanted that), but not in the way you expected it, by having it be AU Michael.  They're just oh so clever.  And now that we have AU Michael, I don't see any reason to dig up our Michael.  I hope that ship has sailed.  Is this a show about two brothers saving people and hunting things, or a reality show about a dysfunctional family of archangels?  I'm so over it.

I really would love to take a poll of the fandom to see just how many people tune in each week to see Lucifer, and how many tune in for Sam, Dean and Cas.  I just don't understand their fascination with him.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

  They're just oh so clever.  And now that we have AU Michael, I don't see any reason to dig up our Michael.  I

I don't understand this argument. They didn't give us Michael. Michael is still in the cage. That's my whole point. He's not dead. He's in the same place that Lucifer was. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Moved to SPN Bitterness/Unpopular Opinion.

Edited June 8, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand this argument. They didn't give us Michael. Michael is still in the cage. That's my whole point. He's not dead. He's in the same place that Lucifer was. 

They gave us Michael, just the AU version.  We know just as little about our Michael as we do about AU Michael.  I frankly don't get what the difference is.  

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They gave me what I wanted, in the least possible satisfying way. They rushed Dean into a yes for a questionable reason. Yes, *I* can reason it was about more than just saving Sam, but  they left it equivocal and wide open for Dean-hating speculation. Then they took what should've been a shining moment for Jensen and made a mockery of it with that midair fight. (Winchester Family Business is having a field day meme-ing the stills. Funny I don't see any mocking of Mark P, only Jensen). And they couldn't even give Dean the victory, letting Lucifer kick his ass before Sam saves the day and Michael takes off with his body. And then they capped it off with the cheesy freeze frame.

Well, I made fun of the flying monkey battle, so I can't really fault anyone else for doing it.  But it's certainly not Jensen's fault, so it's no reflection on him or Dean.  Haters are going to hate, no matter what, so I couldn't care less what they say.  For me, it was a very heroic moment for Dean, and it doesn't matter that he couldn't beat a souped up archangel.  Dean may be his OTV, but he's still only human.  Lucifer is an archangel hopped up on nephilim grace...I wouldn't expect Dean/Michael to win that fight.  But that doesn't make it any less heroic.  And I gotta say the freeze fame didn't bother me.  I don't understand why that's such a hot button.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They gave us Michael, just the AU version.  We know just as little about our Michael as we do about AU Michael.  I frankly don't get what the difference is.  

IMO all the AU characters are completely different entities. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. :)

Edited June 8, 2018 by catrox14

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

How will they ever know if they never try?Why would there be a need for a meatsuit if all they want to do is get his grace?  Why couldn't Rowena bind him in a spell like she did Lucifer and bleed his grace? Cut his throat with an extender angel blade. Hell, even ask him if he'd give up his grace. He just might be willing to do it.  I can come up with another 10 different ways they can use Michael for his grace.

My entire point is that it's conveniently not brought up as an option in the narrative.  

I'd say it wasn't brought up because it's far simpler to say:
1) Gabriel faked his death (which he's done multiple times)
2) Asmodeus kept him hidden using some of his mojo (he demonstrated mojo multiple times)
3) There is no fan outcry of "why would they be so stupid as to risk bringing back a 'drooling' bad guy" - especially when they could just plop Gabriel in their laps.

I think you have to do a great deal more contriving to get to our Michael than you do "hidden Gabriel who faked his death". 

I'm generally getting a sense that the use of AUMichael vs our Michael is not an equivalent trade for some.  That somehow the fact that it's Michael from the "AU" diminishes the moment.  For me, I don't have to gyrate on getting our Michael 1)back to sane and 2)back to the surface.  And I see both AUMichael and our Michael as both bad guys.   Personally, I didn't have enough interaction with our Michael for me to have any fondness for seeing him come back. 

In short, IMO getting an AUMichael so Dean could say "Yes" to an Archangel (arguably fanservice IMO), was pretty much the point of having the AU in the first place. They've already taken Lucifer out of the Cage.  Going back for another seems really foolhardy and repeatitive.   I don't think it 'came up in the narrative' because Dean saying yes to AUMichael was their goal all along.  They were always avoiding our Michael.  If I were Sam and Dean, I never would have proposed it.  Bring both our Michael and our Lucifer back?  That's them undoing their prevention of the Apocalypse.   

Edited June 8, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

d say it wasn't brought up because it's far simpler to say:
1) Gabriel faked his death (which he's done multiple times)
2) Asmodeus kept him hidden using some of his mojo (he demonstrated mojo multiple times)
3) There is no fan outcry of "why would they be so stupid as to risk bringing back a 'drooling' bad guy" - especially when they could just plop Gabriel in their laps.

I never said anything about getting OG Michael to possess Dean. I have no idea where you got that from. I've been talking all along about getting Michael's grace, which doesn't require him leaving the cage at all. I think maybe you're conflating some comments with mine.

1) There is no on screen evidence that Michael is actually crazy because we haven't seen him. The only person who said Michael was crazy is Lucifer and he should be trusted why??? HE LIES. Chuck only said Michael was in no shape for a fight which was never explored. Regardless, even if Michael is a drooling mess, that doesn't mean his grace wouldn't open a rift. It's unrelated really. The point is to get his grace. Not have him possess someone. 

2)  To me, it's far more convoluted to bring back a character who already had a redemption arc, who's wings were shown burned up on the screen and even Chuck said he couldn't re make him.  He was dead in the narrative.

3) They created Asmodeus apparently only to make sure Gabriel had a place to be from whence he came.  They dont' have to create another character just go back for Michael's grace.

4) There wouldn't be fan outcry for them opening the Cage because they don't necessarily have to open the Cage. Hell, someone could actually go into Hell by Billie taking them. It's not off limits just because Crowley is dead. 

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

In short, IMO getting an AUMichael so Dean could say "Yes" to an Archangel (arguably fanservice IMO), was pretty much the point of having the AU in the first place.

I thought the point of the AU was to set up Wayward Sisters which was arguably fanservice. 

 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

They've already taken Lucifer out of the Cage.  Going back for another seems really foolhardy and repeatitive.  

I completely agree taking Lucifer out of the cage yet again is repetitive but the show doesn't seem to agree with me.

 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I don't think it 'came up in the narrative' because Dean saying yes to AUMichael was their goal all along. 

I guess those little hints about a character we hadn't seen in quite a while was a clever misdirect and not at all bullshit.

 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

They were always avoiding our Michael.

Which is odd if you ask me me but nobody did so there you go.

 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

If I were Sam and Dean, I never would have proposed it.  Bring both our Michael and our Lucifer back?  That's them undoing their prevention of the Apocalypse.   

I'm sure I've posted this at least 100 times before but for posterity's or redundancy's sake ( you be the judge) I can't imagine and for that matter neither can the show, how Lucifer is the lesser of two evils. In the pitifully defined AU we only know that Lucifer was defeated somehow and there was no "paradise". Maybe that was AU Michael's plan all along and it's his skewed view of "paradise", a boring and cliche (IMO) nonpocalyptic battleground, maybe because they (Michael and Lucifer) were without their true vessels the prophecy couldn't come to fruition. We have only speculation as to what would have happened in OW if this or that happened instead of, we have even less to go by in the AU IMO>

Edited June 8, 2018 by trxr4kids

[SueB]

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I thought the point of the AU was to set up Wayward Sisters which was arguably fanservice. 

 

I completely agree taking Lucifer out of the cage yet again is repetitive but the show doesn't seem to agree with me.

 

I guess those little hints about a character we hadn't seen in quite a while was a clever misdirect and not at all bullshit.

 

Which is odd if you ask me me but nobody did so there you go.

 

I'm sure I've posted this at least 100 times before but for posterity's or redundancy's sake ( you be the judge) I can't imagine and for that matter neither can the show, how Lucifer is the lesser of two evils. In the pitifully defined AU we only know that Lucifer was defeated somehow and there was no "paradise". Maybe that was AU Michael's plan all along and it's his skewed view of "paradise", a boring and cliche (IMO) nonpocalyptic battleground, maybe because they (Michael and Lucifer) were without their true vessels the prophecy couldn't come to fruition. We have only speculation as to what would have happened in OW if this or that happened instead of, we have even less to go by in the AU IMO>

We've had the French Mistake so an AU is not a new concept.  We got 2 this year -- which I now just realized -- Balthazar's spell was hella-simple compared to the whole Archangel grace deal.  Now THERE's a potential continuity gap. 

Anyway, I digress.  Yes, they wanted to have the AU be the Wayward Sister's pilot, but there were plenty of ways to introduce that AU.  The only connection b/w the two was Kaia and again, they didn't need to have an entire season long arc for The Bad Place to work as a good setup to Wayward Sisters. Back in Sept Singer & Dabb said AUMichael was the BigBad.  By EP6 we knew he wanted to come to our world.  After Jack went to the AU, and the boys found out Mary was alive -- getting to the AU, rescuing their loved ones, and NOT letting AUMichael in were the main story drivers.  And none of that had to do with Wayward Sisters.

The only hint about OUR Michael was "a character we haven't seen in a while".  Which doesn't track with us seeing AUMichael in S13.  I guess in Dabb/Singer's head AUMichael and Michael are the same.  I don't think it was a clever misdirect, I think it was someone sloppy conflating of the two characters.

Lucifer vs Michael - I think Lucifer WAS worse than Michael (or AUMichael for that matter).  But both are "evil" and too powerful.  If you already have one out (that you didn't intend) why would you pull out the second.  The boys had thought they put Lucifer back in the cage.  Then they thought they trapped him AU world.  Yes, they let him out of the cage in S11 but not intentionally.  They thought they could simply talk to him -- look how poorly that turned out.  So, given you have Lucifer out with the potential to cause destruction and AUMichael trying to get to our world, why would you intentionally add ANOTHER evil Archangel into the mix?  In 13.21, they worked with what they had.  And in doing so they thought they trapped Lucifer again and were in the process of taking his grace.  That seems like a safer route than letting Lucifer continue to roam about and trying to work out a deal with a potentially insane Archangel.  

At the end of the day, I was okay with the speculation of them going for OUR Michael, but I think they had the boys being consistent and in-character by not introducing that potentially unstable/evil element.  

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

How will they ever know if they never try?

I don't think that's a good argument for doing something on this show.  It's kind of like in Reading Is Fundamental, when Dean started to break into the leviathan tablet, there was a huge crash of thunder or something and he asked Sam if that sounded like the Universe trying to tell him something, then he just shrugged and did it anyway.  Would have been better off leaving it alone.  I know Kevin would have appreciated it.  And, then trying to shut the gates of Hell when they had no idea if that meant that all the demons on the outside would no longere be able to be exorcised, or if all ghosts destined for Hell would just be stuck up here permanently as vengeful spirits as they had no place to go.  They  need to STOP just tring things.

 

5 hours ago, SueB said:

We've had the French Mistake so an AU is not a new concept.  We got 2 this year -- which I now just realized -- Balthazar's spell was hella-simple compared to the whole Archangel grace deal.  Now THERE's a potential continuity gap. 

I still maintain, and nobody is ever going to talk me out of this, that Balthazar's AU was a construct like Gabriel's in Changing Channels.

[trxr4kids]

16 hours ago, SueB said:

We've had the French Mistake so an AU is not a new concept.  We got 2 this year -- which I now just realized -- Balthazar's spell was hella-simple compared to the whole Archangel grace deal.  Now THERE's a potential continuity gap. 

It's a pretty glaring one IMO.

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

I still maintain, and nobody is ever going to talk me out of this, that Balthazar's AU was a construct like Gabriel's in Changing Channels.

Not trying to change your mind at all and I can see how that would a reasonable or even probable interpretation. It only doesn't work for me because iIrc it was touted as an actual AU as opposed to a construct. I'm not saying my memory isn't wrong though and I would actually prefer if it was a construct, especially since it would fit in nicely with Balthazar's MO.

 

16 hours ago, SueB said:

The only hint about OUR Michael was "a character we haven't seen in a while".  Which doesn't track with us seeing AUMichael in S13.  I guess in Dabb/Singer's head AUMichael and Michael are the same.  I don't think it was a clever misdirect, I think it was someone sloppy conflating of the two characters.

There was also a hint of something being a long time coming I think. 

It's a pretty sad state of affairs IMO when the PTB can't differentiate between separate characters in their own damn show, especially in the case of Singer.

Side note I've been sleep deprived lately and as I was writing about Singer I was thinking I should print out pictures for my great niece who is 4 & 1/2 to do with as she wishes.

ETA: I mentioned I was sleep deprived right, great, I have other great nieces and nephews and didn't mean to play favorites online unless my niece who is the mother of that particular child reads this because she's so fricking nosy, then yes I totally meant Kaitlyn is my favorite.

Edited June 8, 2018 by trxr4kids

[gonzosgirrl]

On 6/6/2018 at 5:18 PM, Katy M said:

I don't hold actors responsible for canon.  I'm sure Richard Speight wanted to work.  More than he cared about canon.  Which is fine.  The writers and showrunner are 100% responsible for canon.

From PittCon

Pretty much sums it up. We are Lucifer.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From PittCon

Pretty much sums it up. We are Lucifer.

I hope there is more context to this reply from Dick cause really? So that means Sam, Dean, Cas and Chuck, and as you said, all of us, are stupid, too, for believing what the writers seemed to be intending for us to think about Gabriel's  status from s5 to s13.  I'm sure Dick was  trying to be funny but still...

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hope there is more context to this reply from Dick cause really? So that means Sam, Dean, Cas and Chuck, and as you said, all of us, are stupid, too, for believing what the writers seemed to be intending for us to think about Gabriel's  status from s5 to s13.  I'm sure Dick was  trying to be funny but still...

I'm sure he was, but it sure does lay it out there. I know that's how I'm feeling.

[Pondlass1]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:47 AM, SueB said:

The only hint about OUR Michael was "a character we haven't seen in a while".  Which doesn't track with us seeing AUMichael in S13.  I guess in Dabb/Singer's head AUMichael and Michael are the same.  I don't think it was a clever misdirect, I think it was someone sloppy conflating of the two characters.

This is what threw us all off during our speculations - well, me anyway.  I was thinking Our World Mike all along.  Never once considered AU Mike wearing Dean.  I thought the end battle would be between the two.

I hope there are no plans for more alternate universes in future seasons, the concept is too confusing for these writers and showrunner. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Pondlass1 said:

This is what threw us all off during our speculations - well, me anyway.  I was thinking Our World Mike all along.  Never once considered AU Mike wearing Dean.  I thought the end battle would be between the two.

I hope there are no plans for more alternate universes in future seasons, the concept is too confusing for these writers and showrunner. 

 They created the Bad Place for Kaia to die in and for her evil doppelganger to come back through. I wonder if they will ever revisit that. 

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm sure he was, but it sure does lay it out there. I know that's how I'm feeling.

I don't - I feel duped! Along with angry, annoyed and shaking-my-head at the writer's/showrunner's lack of originality.

[SueB]

As I mentioned elsewhere, Dick was likely to go with a snarky ‘quip’ when asked.  That’s his way. 

And he does,IMO, have an edge to him. He doesn’t want to be asked a question he doesn’t have a great answer for.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

As I mentioned elsewhere, Dick was likely to go with a snarky ‘quip’ when asked.  That’s his way. 

And he does,IMO, have an edge to him. He doesn’t want to be asked a question he doesn’t have a great answer for.  

It's just too bad he decided to go with that one.

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I hope there is more context to this reply from Dick cause really? So that means Sam, Dean, Cas and Chuck, and as you said, all of us, are stupid, too, for believing what the writers seemed to be intending for us to think about Gabriel's  status from s5 to s13.  I'm sure Dick was  trying to be funny but still...

Did he mean Lucifer back then or Lucifer now? Because Lucifer now kinda should question whether Gabe is dead, since he wasn't before either - even with ash wing outlines and such.

And kind of an odd question, too... why would Lucifer care if Gabriel was dead. As long as Gabe was not bothering him (Lucifer), I would suspect Lucifer wouldn't care less what Gabriel did, so why would Lucifer even question it?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Did he mean Lucifer back then or Lucifer now? Because Lucifer now kinda should question whether Gabe is dead, since he wasn't before either - even with ash wing outlines and such.

And kind of an odd question, too... why would Lucifer care if Gabriel was dead. As long as Gabe was not bothering him (Lucifer), I would suspect Lucifer wouldn't care less what Gabriel did, so why would Lucifer even question it?

I'm sure the question was regarding Gabe showing up in that bar, being alive in 2018. Why wouldn't he question it, when he's the one who killed him?

Regardless though, Dick's answer implies, by extension that anyone who believed Gabriel was dead is stupid. Just the feeling I want from a show - look how stupid you are!

As for whether or not he should've questioned it after Gabriel's most recent 'death', it didn't matter much since his body was left behind in the AU, and Lucifer himself was 'dead' not so long after.

The real question is, are we stupid enough to believe that either of them are 'dead' now.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Did he mean Lucifer back then or Lucifer now? Because Lucifer now kinda should question whether Gabe is dead, since he wasn't before either - even with ash wing outlines and such.

And kind of an odd question, too... why would Lucifer care if Gabriel was dead. As long as Gabe was not bothering him (Lucifer), I would suspect Lucifer wouldn't care less what Gabriel did, so why would Lucifer even question it?

I don't see how it could have been about Lucifer now, because AFAIK, Lucifer thought he killed him back in s5. He didn't know he was alive again until he saw him in the bar. 

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Regardless though, Dick's answer implies, by extension that anyone who believed Gabriel was dead is stupid. Just the feeling I want from a show - look how stupid you are!

Again, I would lay this at the feet of the writer's. It's not his fault that there is no reasonable explanation for anything to do with Gabriel still being alive. And, if I were him, I probably couldn't be bothered to come up with some contrived explanation either.  Maybe he shouldn't have said that Lucifer was stupid, but he probably wasn't meaning that to imply that the entire audience is stupid.

[DeeDee79]

Is less effort being put into monster effects as the years go on or is it just less effective after so many seasons? I had a thought while perusing Tumblr and seeing this pic of Lenore: and it made me think of how much more impressive her teeth were in comparison to vamps shown later like Benny's: Has anyone noticed this with any of the creatures in later seasons as compared to the earlier ones? Am I just being nitpicky?

[tennisgurl]

Hello everyone! I wondered if I could ask a favor, and I wasn’t sure where to go so, here I am. I gave up on this show around season six (the plot seemed to be going in circles, and was just...weird), but I’m considering picking it up again. Only, I don’t know if I have time to watch every season I missed. My question is: should I give this another go? And, follow up, is there a way to jump back in without having to watch about a thousand episodes? Maybe just a hundred?

Most of what I know about the show now is: Something something Lucifer, something something demons and angels, something something Scooby Doo. 

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Hello everyone! I wondered if I could ask a favor, and I wasn’t sure where to go so, here I am. I gave up on this show around season six (the plot seemed to be going in circles, and was just...weird), but I’m considering picking it up again. Only, I don’t know if I have time to watch every season I missed. My question is: should I give this another go? And, follow up, is there a way to jump back in without having to watch about a thousand episodes? Maybe just a hundred?

Most of what I know about the show now is: Something something Lucifer, something something demons and angels, something something Scooby Doo. 

Hello! The following is IMO only; someone else may disagree. Seasons 6 and 7 started off so-so but ultimately both ended up being pretty good with some interesting character arcs. Seasons 8-9 were a mix of infuriating and entertaining; there were a lot of filler eps as well. Season 10 was mostly good and had a lot of great episodes sprinkled in. Season 11 was hit or miss but had more good eps than bad ones. Season 12 mostly sucked IMO and with the exception of a few episodes season 13 did as well. Were you looking for a recommendation for a specific season to jump back in?

[tennisgurl]

@DeeDee79 I think so.Or at least are there some seasons I could skip and not miss much? But, I guess where’s a good place to jump back in? 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

@DeeDee79 I think so.Or at least are there some seasons I could skip and not miss much? But, I guess where’s a good place to jump back in? 

Hmm...where did you stop watching during season 6?

Spoiler

Did you see up to the reveal of soulless Sam or beyond? 

If before I would say to start at episode 6 and finish out the season. If after I would say jump back in at episode 15. The remainder and finale of that season will definitely entice you into continuing onto season 7. For season's 8 and 9 it's hard to say because there is a running storyline throughout each season and there are a few gems but there's quite a bit of filler. I will say that season 10 largely continues a storyline that starts midway through season 9. The resolution of that storyline is a major plotline for season 11 and is resolved at the end of that season. Seasons 12 & 13 don't really have a cohesive plot; there's a lot going on and much of it isn't resolved in a satisfying way IMO.

[tennisgurl]

@DeeDee79 It was right before that when I decided to give the show up. So, do you think I could skip most of 12 and 13 and be alright? 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

@DeeDee79 It was right before that when I decided to give the show up. So, do you think I could skip most of 12 and 13 and be alright? 

IMO most definitely. From season 13 the Scooby ep is great and so is Advanced Thanatology but beyond that it's mostly forgettable. Your spec that it's mostly Lucifer focused is spot on; he's featured way too much along with another new and grating character that's thankfully gone by the end of the season. For season 12 it's 60% rage inducing and 40% sedative. 

[tennisgurl]

Thanks @DeeDee79 I really appreciate the advice :) 

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Thanks @DeeDee79 I really appreciate the advice :) 

You’re very welcome! ?

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Hello everyone! I wondered if I could ask a favor, and I wasn’t sure where to go so, here I am. I gave up on this show around season six (the plot seemed to be going in circles, and was just...weird), but I’m considering picking it up again. Only, I don’t know if I have time to watch every season I missed. My question is: should I give this another go? And, follow up, is there a way to jump back in without having to watch about a thousand episodes? Maybe just a hundred?

Most of what I know about the show now is: Something something Lucifer, something something demons and angels, something something Scooby Doo. 

IMO, s6 has some good episodes and pretty critical SLs for all the characters.   S7 is a mixed bag with good eps and a couple of big things for characters. 

IMO, s8 both good and bad and kind for the same reasons which I know is confusing. IMO there are important character beats for Sam and Dean and some new lore that has lasting impact.   S9 and s10 IMO, are good with the back half s9 bringing a major mytharc that lasts through s11.  And some of the best acting IMO of the whole show in a general sense, but that's just me.

IMO, s12 and s13 are also mixed bags with some really good individual episodes with stellar acting, but in general not my favorite seasons. S13 has one of the best episodes of the whole show, (not the Scooby ep) and a major thing happens that is intriguing for s14 IMO. 

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Hello everyone! I wondered if I could ask a favor, and I wasn’t sure where to go so, here I am. I gave up on this show around season six (the plot seemed to be going in circles, and was just...weird), but I’m considering picking it up again. Only, I don’t know if I have time to watch every season I missed. My question is: should I give this another go? And, follow up, is there a way to jump back in without having to watch about a thousand episodes? Maybe just a hundred?

Most of what I know about the show now is: Something something Lucifer, something something demons and angels, something something Scooby Doo. 

My suggestion would be to finish S6 and start S7. Sometimes just reading the episode guides gives you an idea about character points, so I would do that as you go through each season including S7. In S8, I would recommend "As Time Goes By" into "Everybody Hates Hitler" as well as the finale. I agree with others that you would want to watch some episodes in the last half of S9 and most of S10. Also, in the later seasons, important events take place in the premieres and in the last three or so episodes of each season. So I think you can get important plot/characters in each of those in all S6-S13. So jump in and see if you like it again.

[SueB]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:52 PM, tennisgurl said:

Hello everyone! I wondered if I could ask a favor, and I wasn’t sure where to go so, here I am. I gave up on this show around season six (the plot seemed to be going in circles, and was just...weird), but I’m considering picking it up again. Only, I don’t know if I have time to watch every season I missed. My question is: should I give this another go? And, follow up, is there a way to jump back in without having to watch about a thousand episodes? Maybe just a hundred?

Most of what I know about the show now is: Something something Lucifer, something something demons and angels, something something Scooby Doo. 

I savor each and every episode -- except "Man's Best Friend With Benefits" -- that's a hard pass.  

[Jeddah]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I savor each and every episode -- except "Man's Best Friend With Benefits" -- that's a hard pass.  

It’s like you read my mind! I am the exact same way.

[DittyDotDot]

On 6/29/2018 at 5:52 PM, tennisgurl said:

Hello everyone! I wondered if I could ask a favor, and I wasn’t sure where to go so, here I am. I gave up on this show around season six (the plot seemed to be going in circles, and was just...weird), but I’m considering picking it up again. Only, I don’t know if I have time to watch every season I missed. My question is: should I give this another go? And, follow up, is there a way to jump back in without having to watch about a thousand episodes? Maybe just a hundred?

Most of what I know about the show now is: Something something Lucifer, something something demons and angels, something something Scooby Doo. 

TBH, I think you could jump back in at any point and you'd be fine. The show has a standard format to it and generally makes sure to give enough exposition to keep casual viewers from being lost. I can't bring myself to skip any episodes when rewatching. Every season has a few I don't enjoy as much as others, but even the stinkers generally have some nugget in it I either love or feel I need to keep the story in place.

So, I guess it all depends on what you're wanting to see. If you're wanting to get caught up on the mythology you probably should watch the first three or four of each season, the two episodes before the winter break, the two after the break and the last four of the season--that's about 12 of the 23 episodes per season. But, if you're looking for the character development more than the plot, it's hard to skip any since the show has become more serialized, IMO, so the MotW episodes don't stand on their own as much and are as easily skipped. And, if you're looking for only one character, well then I'm not sure what to tell you. 

If it were me:

• I'd complete S6 and S7--I actually have grown to love both these seasons in retrospect, even though I was sort of meh on them at the time--but you probably could skip a couple episodes in the middle of each half of the seasons where they're just filling time until they get to the various sweeps and move the main arcs along. TBH, you could probably skip both these seasons if you're just looking to get caught up with the show currently. It seems to me that they don't refer back to these two seasons very much these days, but they are important to understanding where everyone is at at the start of S8. 
• S8-S10, IMO, has a big tonal change so you might want to just feel your way through those seasons. In many ways, S8 is a sort of reboot of the show, so you probably could jump in at this point if you're just wanting to get caught up. Personally, these are the most frustrating seasons for me to watch, but quality being subjective and all, you may find you adore them.
• S11 through S13 are very uneven, IMO, but has some very good MotW episodes that you could skip if you are only interested in the main mythology, but I actually think these are some of the best episodes of the seasons...so again, it all depends on what you're interested in. 

Hope that helps!

Edited July 8, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Whodunnit]

Random question; 

Does anyone know when Owen Mills  (sheriff Jody Mills' son) died and what he died of?

Originally, I  mean. Not when he became a zombie in 2010.

I thought it was some sort of cancer, but perhaps I misremember.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Random question; 

Does anyone know when Owen Mills  (sheriff Jody Mills' son) died and what he died of?

Originally, I  mean. Not when he became a zombie in 2010.

I thought it was some sort of cancer, but perhaps I misremember.

I can't remember it ever being stated what he died of, just that he died...hmm, Maybe I should rewatch Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid to refresh my memory?

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Random question; 

Does anyone know when Owen Mills  (sheriff Jody Mills' son) died and what he died of?

Originally, I  mean. Not when he became a zombie in 2010.

I thought it was some sort of cancer, but perhaps I misremember.

It was never stated.

[AwesomO4000]

I decided to put this here because well you'll see in a moment...

So somewhere on this board I remembered reading a question about whether there were any episodes that were beloved by both fans who leaned towards Sam and fans who leaned towards Dean, and I wanted to think on that for a bit. Of course now that I've thought about it and wanted to answer, do you think I could fine the original question and the one answer I remember? No, no I could not...

So I'm putting it here instead, I apologize for not giving credit to the original question writer or the one answer I remember, but oh well. So here are maybe some potentials? I won't be hurt if others don't agree. These are just ones I'm throwing out after considering it for a bit.

• First I agree with the question answerer's post that "In My Time of Dying" is a good choice.
• "What Is and What Never Should Be"
• "The End"
• "Changing Channels"***
• "The French Mistake"***
• "Slash Fiction" excluding the angsty end part
• "Time After Time..." (including the deleted scenes)
• "About A Boy"
• "Baby"
• "Safe House"
• "Regarding Dean" (? - well I really liked it anyway).

*** Though maybe not for those who dislike the alternate universe stuff, rather than disliking due to either Sam or Dean reasons.

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I decided to put this here because well you'll see in a moment...

So somewhere on this board I remembered reading a question about whether there were any episodes that were beloved by both fans who leaned towards Sam and fans who leaned towards Dean, and I wanted to think on that for a bit. Of course now that I've thought about it and wanted to answer, do you think I could fine the original question and the one answer I remember? No, no I could not...

So I'm putting it here instead, I apologize for not giving credit to the original question writer or the one answer I remember, but oh well. So here are maybe some potentials? I won't be hurt if others don't agree. These are just ones I'm throwing out after considering it for a bit.

• First I agree with the question answerer's post that "In My Time of Dying" is a good choice.
• "What Is and What Never Should Be"
• "The End"
• "Changing Channels"***
• "The French Mistake"***
• "Slash Fiction" excluding the angsty end part
• "Time After Time..." (including the deleted scenes)
• "About A Boy"
• "Baby"
• "Safe House"
• "Regarding Dean" (? - well I really liked it anyway).

*** Though maybe not for those who dislike the alternate universe stuff, rather than disliking due to either Sam or Dean reasons.

Interesting.  I like them both, as I've said before, and don't really care which brother gets more attention in any given epi.  But, while I personally love The End (it's in my top 5), I find The End to be a weird choice as an episode that would be beloved of especial Sam fans.  he's literally only in the teaser and the final scene.    I guess I could pretty much say the same for What Is and What Should Never because AU Sam is kind of jerky (but apparently with good reason). But I guess real Sam half saved the day until he needed saving, and AU Sam did go out to help Dean.

I would suggest, maybe

Home

The Benders

Devil's Trap

Bad Day at Black rock

No Rest for the Wicked

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Home

As a Dean-fan, I have a love/hate relationship with Home because it has Misery in it. And that character inspired a fierce hatred in me. 

Quote

The Benders

Not too enamored with this one either. 

I do believe Devil`s Trap might be a good candidate. I remember it being well-received back in the day. It certainly had the most genuine nail-biting cliffhanger because the show being renewed was a nailbiter itself. 

[BabySpinach]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do believe Devil`s Trap might be a good candidate. I remember it being well-received back in the day. It certainly had the most genuine nail-biting cliffhanger because the show being renewed was a nailbiter itself. 

It makes me nostalgic to remember how simple the show used to be, and how just a scene between two boys and their father could be so laced with tension and drama. Of course there was a YED in there somewhere, but the stakes were still objectively low (yet no less effective). Will Sam trust Dean's judgement that John is possessed? Will Sam kill his father in the name of revenge? Great stuff, and thematically consistent with the entire first season. God, narrative cohesion and emphasis on character arcs and relationships is just so great, ain't it?! 

[Pondlass1]

Season One was so good!! (Season 2 even better!!)  I binged so I could pop in the season 2 disk right away to see what happened.  I don't know how fans watching live could wait all summer to see what happened.  These brothers hooked into our hearts pretty quickly.

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Season One was so good!! (Season 2 even better!!)  I binged so I could pop in the season 2 disk right away to see what happened.  I don't know how fans watching live could wait all summer to see what happened.  These brothers hooked into our hearts pretty quickly.

Oh, it was tough! And this is coming from someone who doesn't read spoilers of any kind. I love thinking of possibilities, and then watching things unfold. It's the main reason I love dramas so much. Of course, I didn't think that either of our two stars would die - or (spoiler) - no show. ;)

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

Interesting.  I like them both, as I've said before, and don't really care which brother gets more attention in any given epi.  But, while I personally love The End (it's in my top 5), I find The End to be a weird choice as an episode that would be beloved of especial Sam fans.  he's literally only in the teaser and the final scene.    I guess I could pretty much say the same for What Is and What Should Never because AU Sam is kind of jerky (but apparently with good reason). But I guess real Sam half saved the day until he needed saving, and AU Sam did go out to help Dean.

I also like both brothers - I just happen to prefer Sam most of the time (not in seasons 4, 8, and 9 though). But for me, I often put emphasis on whether or not an episode is good as much as whether it's a Sam episode. And at least "The End" is not only good, but has "Sam" in it (even f he is possessed by Lucifer.) Even though I liked "In the Beginning" well enough (though not one of my favorites), I didn't include it because that one really didn't have Sam in it at all.

As for "What Is..." I like it especially because other Sam was kind of a jerk -although in a way, weirdly that was more Dean imagining Sam would be a jerk without hunting rather than any real reflection on Sam himself - and what a contrast that was with real Sam. This was the episode that cemented for me that yes, Sam had indeed changed by his experience with Dean over the past two seasons. It showed not only that Sam was proud of Dean and understood what he (and they) do is important, but that he wouldn't trade what they had then for anything. For me, it was just as much a turning point in Sam's story as it was Dean's. It was Sam admitting that he'd come to terms with the hunting life and his life with Dean, that he wasn't running from it anymore, and that he was not only good with it but felt a sense of fulfillment from it. That's the reason that I love it so much,

I agree about "Devil's Trap." That's probably one that's liked by fans of both brothers. Also this:

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It certainly had the most genuine nail-biting cliffhanger because the show being renewed was a nailbiter itself. 

I think I remember myself going "What?!? Noooo!!!! (imagine that in a Monica from Friends voice). And I had no idea if the show would be renewed either. It was a looong wait for the season 2 opener.

I don't know about "No Rest For the Wicked" being a favorite of mine. It was kind of depressing.

[Lemuria]

Speaking of "Devil's Trap" (an episode I loved, BTW), I wonder how many of us remember where Denny Duquette's heart came from.  I didn't watch GA but I watched to finale because it was bruited around back then that depending on what happened, JW would stay on the show or not (if Denny had lived, JDM would have joined GA).  The GA finale was one week after "Devil's Trap."  

Denny's heart came from one of two brothers who tried to pass a semi and had a head-on.  I wonder if they were driving an Impala!  lol

(I liked how very Delphic oracle the title of the SPN finale was.  You know, one of those statements that could actually have two directly opposite meanings, so that no matter which was it went the Oracle was right.  "Devil's Trap" could mean a trap for the Devil, or a trap by the Devil.  Which is what it turned out to be.)

Awesome, in "What Is...?" Dean may have thought that Sam could act like a jerk at times, but he really, really thought of himself as a total loser.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Lemuria

[AwesomO4000]

On 7/15/2018 at 7:14 PM, Lemuria said:

Awesome, in "What Is...?" Dean may have thought that Sam could act like a jerk at times, but he really, really thought of himself as a total loser.

I agree that he was just as critical of himself. After thinking about it, I found it a bit unsettling (and depressing) what Dean thought he and Sam would be like without hunting in their lives. For me it really emphasized how much John messed up Dean's thinking. I think the Sam imagining was part that also... that and Dean's kind of "thing" with institutional groups - like colleges, government workers, police, etc. (which he also got from John I bet). Not that Dean wasn't proud of Dream World Sam or anything, because he was, but I think that's pretty much a Dean default when it comes to people in those kinds of positions: thinking that they are kind of stuffy and such.

I'm not even sure that Dean wasn't at least a little right about what Sam might've been like without his growing up the way he did and without hunting in his life... which is why I think that "What Is..." is just as much a Sam episode as a Dean one. I think it shows just how much Sam had changed through the previous two seasons. When we first met Sam in season one, I might have imagined Sam being a bit like what we saw in Dean's dream world... but I don't think it really fit Sam by the time "What Is...", and how real Sam was in the episode I think illustrated that well.

Brought over from the "These Spoilers Suck..." thread - No spoilers:

15 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I dunno - do we really think Sam and Dean played with plastic army figures in the back of the Impala? Dean was old beyond his years. More like taking apart a gun or sneaking dad's beer. His brother's pulpy bloody broken face should have been the trigger.

Maybe Dean might've given them to Sam? Dean did say that he used to love them to Lucas in "Dead in the Water." He could've been lying I guess just to bond, but I don't think so. When Dean picked them up he made war sounds with the soldiers and such... and then later the soldiers had meaning in the episode I thought. Lucas was putting them around like they were protection.*** Now "Dead in the Water" wasn't written by Kripke (it was written by Sera Gamble and Raelle Tucker), but it was directed by Kim Manners, so maybe Kripke called back to the soldier as a shout out to him? Or just a call back to the green army men as a symbol of "protection"  from Dean to Sam and the car (their "home") itself. I don't know. Maybe I'm seeing stuff that isn't there, but when the army man showed up in "Swan Song" my mind went immediately back to the green army man in "Dead in the Water" and I thought of the protection angle and maybe Dean giving it to Sam and keeping it in the backseat to "watch over him."

Yeah, yeah I know... and it doesn't explain the Leggos which were just random and probably even less likely than the army men, so...

 

*** Probably TMI: I remember thinking that because I used to do that kind of thing with stuffed animals when I was a kid. And I used to put them around my sister too, to "protect" her. Weirdly my nephew did exactly the same thing when he was a kid even though he didn't know I'd done it as a kid, also.

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree that he was just as critical of himself. After thinking about it, I found it a bit unsettling (and depressing) what Dean thought he and Sam would be like without hunting in their lives. For me it really emphasized how much John messed up Dean's thinking. I think the Sam imagining was part that also... that and Dean's kind of "thing" with institutional groups - like colleges, government workers, police, etc. (which he also got from John I bet). Not that Dean wasn't proud of Dream World Sam or anything, because he was, but I think that's pretty much a Dean default when it comes to people in those kinds of positions: thinking that they are kind of stuffy and such.

I'm not even sure that Dean wasn't at least a little right about what Sam might've been like without his growing up the way he did and without hunting in his life... which is why I think that "What Is..." is just as much a Sam episode as a Dean one. I think it shows just how much Sam had changed through the previous two seasons. When we first met Sam in season one, I might have imagined Sam being a bit like what we saw in Dean's dream world... but I don't think it really fit Sam by the time "What Is...", and how real Sam was in the episode I think illustrated that well.

Yeah, it is a fascinating episode because while it might initially seem to be a legitimate AU based on a single point of departure -- this is what Sam and Dean's life would be like if Mary hadn't died -- the revelation about Dean's girlfriend being the woman in the advertisement makes it clear that it isn't. This is basically the best version of his life that Dean can imagine, and it is telling, and sad, that he really can't imagine more for himself than what we get here. 

I'm not sure that he's much more accurate on Sam, though. I think it is simply that it is easier to imagine some kind of conventionally happy life for Sam given that Sam had seemed pretty close to getting that in the actual world, so Dean's brain has no trouble coming up with "lawyer, married to Jess." But in reality, Sam's path in RL was as much a function of his upbringing as Dean's. We actually have no idea whether or not a Sam who had an ordinary childhood would have wound up being super academic or aspiring to law school, as those seem to me to be specific reactions against the upbringing he did have. In a family that didn't value those things, and was living outside the law as a matter of course, going to Stanford as a path to a legal career was classic teenage rebellion. It is quite possible that a Sam raised in very different circumstances would have wound up getting a D1 college basketball scholarship and going onto a successful career in business. Or, for that matter, rebelling in the other direction and winding up as the alcoholic ne'er do well in a family in which handsome, charming Dean earned a scholarship to West Point. We just don't know. 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe Dean might've given them to Sam? Dean did say that he used to love them to Lucas in "Dead in the Water." He could've been lying I guess just to bond, but I don't think so. When Dean picked them up he made war sounds with the soldiers and such... and then later the soldiers had meaning in the episode I thought. Lucas was putting them around like they were protection.*** Now "Dead in the Water" wasn't written by Kripke (it was written by Sera Gamble and Raelle Tucker), but it was directed by Kim Manners, so maybe Kripke called back to the soldier as a shout out to him? Or just a call back to the green army men as a symbol of "protection"  from Dean to Sam and the car (their "home") itself. I don't know. Maybe I'm seeing stuff that isn't there, but when the army man showed up in "Swan Song" my mind went immediately back to the green army man in "Dead in the Water" and I thought of the protection angle and maybe Dean giving it to Sam and keeping it in the backseat to "watch over him."

Yeah, yeah I know... and it doesn't explain the Leggos which were just random and probably even less likely than the army men, so...

 

This is one of those questions that gets to the heart of just how horrible you think John was. Even abusive parents aren't usually abusive 100 % of the time, and John clearly loved his sons in his own warped way, so I don't see any reason why little Dean couldn't have actually played with toy soldiers. 

It has also occurred to me before that we actually have a several year gap in Dean's childhood. I think, after the fire, the youngest we see the boys in flashbacks is Something Wicked, where Dean is 9 or 10 - in other words, still way too young for it to be OK that John is making him responsible for Sam, especially under those circumstances, but old enough for it to be at least barely plausible for John to do so. This kind of arrangement simply would not have been possible when Dean was five or six and Sam was an infant/toddler. Which has always left me with a lot of practical and emotional questions about what the family's life looked like in the years right after the fire.