S03.E20: The Prom

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; All lovely, touching beyond belief and yet still plenty of action and funny stuff, works better when you have an emotional investment in the series. The music especially is excellent plus the wedding sequence must have sent many a Bangler's heart aflutter. The class protector award and scene where Joyce has 'The Talk' with Angel are just wonderful.

The Bad; Again, could only be bettered if it had

Spoiler

Dawn

and Faith in it. In truth the devil dogs do look rather stupid but who cares, this is genius.

Best line; Buffy; "Giles we get it, miles to go before we sleep" (somehow I can't imagine Robert Frost being quoted on Charmed)

Character death; Does the guy at the menswear shop live or die?

Shot; No but Buffy uses her crossbow to good effect.

Tied up; Only Tucker

Knocked out; For once everyone stays conscious

Women good/men bad; Tucker wants to kill everyone at the prom because he couldn't get a date. JERK! Anya meanwhile has after a 1000 years of avenging men's wrongs nothing but contempt for them. But still wants to go to the Prom with one.

Jeez!; Tucker feeds his pets on cow brains, yuck! Probably not as cruel as making them watch all those prom videos.

Kinky dinky; Anya; "I know you find me attractive, I've seen you looking at my breasts" Xander; "Nothing personal but when a guy does that it just means his eyes are open" Wes thinks Cordy in her prom dress is 'hot'. He's not wrong.

Calling Captain Subtext; Will and Buffy in each other's arms on her bed.

Guantanamo Bay; What exactly do they do with Tucker? Turn him over to the police on charges of Hellhound raising?

Spoiler

Where's Dawn? Nowhere to be seen this week but you figure one day she might have the same talk with Spike or The Immortal that Joyce has with Angel.

What the fanficcers manipulated; pictures of bride Buffy often combined with pictures of bride Echo from Dollhouse as a Fuffer's delight

Questions and observations; We'll never see Tucker again (although he might always show up in season 8?) but of course he's 

Spoiler

Andrew the Nerd's brother.

Buffy dislikes Kool and the Gang's 'Celebration'? For shame! Even Oz gets all teary at 'We are family'. Everyone looks dynamite in their prom gear and the relationship with Giles and Buffy has such a resonance. Looking at Alexis in his tux you could imagine him being James Bond. Buffy writes 'Buffy and Angel 4ever' in her homework book. Sorry Spuffers, I think that settles it. The scene where Cordy and Xander meet at the prom is so great, you finally know she's forgiven him. According to Jonathon thanks to Buffy this year's class of SDH has the lowest mortality rate ever. I don't know if anyone counted but what must the rest of them have been like? As we see the end of the Buffy/Angel romance we see the beginning of Anya/Xander. Wes very much part of the group now and get's to dance with Cordy. Love to know a little more about Jonathon's date, was she from his therapy group? Poor Giles is the only one left stag for the evening. You wonder what Faith is doing across town, she must know the Prom is occurring?

Is the guy who wins the class clown award the one referred to in

Spoiler

Conversations with Dead People as going insane?

Marks out of 10, 10/10 Buffy on such a roll.

[lembergwatcher]

While visiting Angel's mansion Joyce very clearly defined what was wrong with almost all of the Buffyverse relationships: the current as of S.03 (Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz)

and the future ones (Xander/Anya, Buffy/Spike)

 

Quote

I don't have to tell you that you and Buffy are from different worlds.

Whether we like it or not, but humans on one side, and vampires, half-beasts and demons on the other just don't belong together. None of those relationships could ever work (no matter what the writers did to have us believe otherwise). JMO.

[Halting Hex]

Yeah, Joss may have seen it as a metaphor for accepting inter-racial dating, but in practice, inter-racial and inter-species are little bit different, after all.

And it would be nice if Angel could use that 241 years of unlife experience and reach a conclusion on his own without needing Joyce (or the Mayor last episode) to come spell it out for him.  Heck, as noted before, Buffy could see the problems before they even started dating or before she knew he was a vampire, even

Quote

BUFFY:  Angel?  I can just see him in a relationship:  "Hi, Honey.  You're in grave danger.  I'll see you next month." —Angel

A pity it took three years for the lesson to seep it.  (Well, not from a dramatic standpoint, but even so.)

[lembergwatcher]

47 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Yeah, Joss may have seen it as a metaphor for accepting inter-racial dating, but in practice, inter-racial and inter-species are little bit different, after all.

And it would be nice if Angel could use that 241 years of unlife experience and reach a conclusion on his own without needing Joyce (or the Mayor last episode) to come spell it out for him.  Heck, as noted before, Buffy could see the problems before they even started dating or before she knew he was a vampire, even

A pity it took three years for the lesson to seep it.  (Well, not from a dramatic standpoint, but even so.)

Let's face it: Joss is not good with metaphors. For seeing Bangel like that makes the whole concept of slaying meaningless.

[lembergwatcher]

And one more truly landmark moment:

Quote

Jonathan: We have one more award to give out. Is Buffy Summers here tonight? Did she, um...
  The crowd turns and finds her. She looks nervous at the attention.
Jonathan: This is actually a new category. First time ever. I guess there were a lot of write-in ballots, and, um, the prom committee asked me to read this. "We're not good friends. Most of us never found the time to get to know you, but that doesn't mean we haven't noticed you. We don't talk about it much, but it's no secret that Sunnydale High isn't really like other high schools. A lot of weird stuff happens here."
Crowd outbursts: Zombies! Hyena people! Snyder! (laughter)
Jonathan: "But, whenever there was a problem or something creepy happened, you seemed to show up and stop it. Most of the people here have been saved by you, or helped by you at one time or another. We're proud to say that the Class of '99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history." (applause from the crowd) "And we know at least part of that is because of you.  So the senior class, offers its thanks, and gives you, uh, this."
  Jonathan produces a multicolored, glittering, miniature umbrella with a small metal plaque attached to the shaft.
Jonathan: It's from all of us, and it has written here, "Buffy Summers, Class Protector."
  The crowd breaks into sustained applause and cheering. Buffy walks to the stage and takes her award.

Somehow, the Class of '99 turned out to be not that stupid, and moreover everyone knows things are not what they seem at Sunnydale High. General acknowledgement that they need protection only confirms there's at least one group among Sunnydale's residents not totally oblivious to all the things Hellmouth-y.
 

 

One episode later they'll get further evidence that the supernatural forces do exist. The Scoobies approaching their classmates and other graduates on the matter means that somehow they know the other kids will

believe the situation is dire. Not all of them fell towards the end of the battle. Many survived and lived to tell the tale. At least some of those veterans went to UC Sunnydale (or knew someone studying here - like we'll see with Percy). So what's the point of Maggie's boys sneaking around and everyone else acting like the presence of supernatural evil in town is such a biiiiiiiiiiiiiig secret? Do we have another case of whedonesque amnesia, i. e. someone let the monks out a little earlier? Rule # 2, guys: if you want "a great twist to get the plot rolling" and you don't know how, use an amnesia or some other form of "divine intervention" as a magic stick to make the things you want look like either it has always been that way (Buffy's Dawn) or it has never happened (Angel's Connor)

Edited August 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Yeah, I love Buffy getting her umbrella, too, but it does undercut the whole "works alone and unacknowledged" deal.  I mean, it's only been two episodes since we saw Nancy glaring at Buffy and being all "I don't see what makes her so special"…did somebody not get the One Girl in All the World pamphlet, then?  Either Buffy's Destiny is her special burden, or it's an Open Secret…you can't really play it both ways, IMO.

And, much as I don't want to see the average Sunnydaler as preternaturally stupid (given that Willow and Xander and Cordelia were all "average Sunnydale students" for most of their lives) and so I like the idea of the class of '99 taking up the fight, once clued in, I twitch a little at S3's conceit that the death toll is so high that it's pretty much a joke and the kids have been stepping over corpses their entire lives.

I mean, in The Harvest, Willow had to go back 60 years to find a series of murders so notable that it might indicate the Master arriving in town.  And it doesn't make much sense for Mayor Wilkins to have gone to such measures to keep the supernatural undercover (via Chief Bob and Snyder and others such as them) if people dying is such a joke that the school newspaper has an obituary section (Earshot), or "everybody knows" that "it's no secret that Sunnydale High isn't really like other high schools."  And it's because of Buffy that "the Class of '99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history".  Because at this point I'm wondering why people still live there, at all.

It's one thing for Willow to joke about "our high mortality rate" in Go Fish because a) Willow's in the loop and b) there's probably been a spike in Hellmouth-related activity lately, resulting the arrival of both Buffy and more vampires.  And Larry's remark about "not have so many mysterious deaths" in Anne could be a once-off, specifically referring to the events of Go Fish.  (Which would resonate even more among the athletic community, of course.)

But to act as though there's death after death after death and it's been this way for year after year after year seems to make a joke of the series premise in ways I'd rather it didn't.  And so, as nice of a moment as this is for Buffy, personally, I almost count it as a strike against Buffy, as a series.  But JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎22‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 2:26 PM, Halting Hex said:

Yeah, I love Buffy getting her umbrella, too, but it does undercut the whole "works alone and unacknowledged" deal.  I mean, it's only been two episodes since we saw Nancy glaring at Buffy and being all "I don't see what makes her so special"…did somebody not get the One Girl in All the World pamphlet, then?  Either Buffy's Destiny is her special burden, or it's an Open Secret…you can't really play it both ways, IMO.

And, much as I don't want to see the average Sunnydaler as preternaturally stupid (given that Willow and Xander and Cordelia were all "average Sunnydale students" for most of their lives) and so I like the idea of the class of '99 taking up the fight, once clued in, I twitch a little at S3's conceit that the death toll is so high that it's pretty much a joke and the kids have been stepping over corpses their entire lives.

I mean, in The Harvest, Willow had to go back 60 years to find a series of murders so notable that it might indicate the Master arriving in town.  And it doesn't make much sense for Mayor Wilkins to have gone to such measures to keep the supernatural undercover (via Chief Bob and Snyder and others such as them) if people dying is such a joke that the school newspaper has an obituary section (Earshot), or "everybody knows" that "it's no secret that Sunnydale High isn't really like other high schools."  And it's because of Buffy that "the Class of '99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history".  Because at this point I'm wondering why people still live there, at all.

It's one thing for Willow to joke about "our high mortality rate" in Go Fish because a) Willow's in the loop and b) there's probably been a spike in Hellmouth-related activity lately, resulting the arrival of both Buffy and more vampires.  And Larry's remark about "not have so many mysterious deaths" in Anne could be a once-off, specifically referring to the events of Go Fish.  (Which would resonate even more among the athletic community, of course.)

But to act as though there's death after death after death and it's been this way for year after year after year seems to make a joke of the series premise in ways I'd rather it didn't.  And so, as nice of a moment as this is for Buffy, personally, I almost count it as a strike against Buffy, as a series.  But JMO.

I always took it that the Hellmouth gradually became more active as the Ascension neared, perhaps raising the Master as a consequence? And SD has plenty of benefits for its' people meaning folks still go there, probably the Mayor's doing, like people still flooded to New York during its' Fort Apache phase or LA in the early 80s when there seemed to be a serial killer on every street corner. 

[Halting Hex]

So it's only because my podcasters have paired this episode and Choices (paving the way to cover Graduation Day as a pair) that I now realize that the sweet X/C arc in them (the squabbling at the dress shop, culminating in Xander eventually buying her the dress and "it looks it good on you"/"Well, duh") is set up by the W/X conversation after Xander and Cordy fought on-campus early in Choices.  ("I can't help it; it's my nature"/"Well, maybe you need a better nature").

So, basically, Xander showed character growth because Willow told him not to be such a dick to Cordelia, and he (eventually) listened.  Willow, standing up for Cordelia.  What a long, strange road it's been…

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So it's only because my podcasters have paired this episode and Choices (paving the way to cover Graduation Day as a pair) that I now realize that the sweet X/C arc in them (the squabbling at the dress shop, culminating in Xander eventually buying her the dress and "it looks it good on you"/"Well, duh") is set up by the W/X conversation after Xander and Cordy fought on-campus early in Choices.  ("I can't help it; it's my nature"/"Well, maybe you need a better nature").

So, basically, Xander showed character growth because Willow told him not to be such a dick to Cordelia, and he (eventually) listened.  Willow, standing up for Cordelia.  What a long, strange road it's been…

So interesting to see them interact on Angel later?

[lembergwatcher]

Many things could have been different if Xander had the guts to tell the "former vengeance demon", disgiused as some annoying young lady, to fuck off. Or if the rest of the Scoobs didn't act so OOC and took matters into their own hands.

Quote

Hello, I'm Anya. I've been a vengeance demon for nearly 1118 years, slaughtering, torturing, maiming and doin' other nasty thinngs to both men and women (and don't I have an ounce of remorse for it). I've granted a stupid wish that turned Sunnydale into bizarro-world overrun by ruthless monsters and left Willow, Xander and many others literally dead. I've lost my powers eventually but that didn't stop me from tricking Willow into helping me with a spell to retrive my amulet, thus transporting Willow's vampire doppelganger from alternate dimension to an unsuspecting Sunnydale (having some people killed and putting Xander's friends' lives at risk as a result). And what was the dolt's response when I approached him not long after the whole deal, prior to the Prom? He agreed to pick me as his friggin' prom date!  And how did his stupid friends from that pathetic Scooby Gang react? They took it as a fucking joke! Guilty as hell, free as a bird, alive and well - that's me! I loooove my life, you know. I even love livin' in this stupid world filled with stupid people eager to give me a pass despite everything I've done to them.

Would somebody tell me what was so bleeding funny about Xander spending the entire Prom night listening to hellbitch's gruesome stories involving blood and gore told in a casual way? Did the writers hate Xander so damn much? What was I supposed to think about one of my favorite characters? Yes, there were She-Mantis and Inca Mummy Girl before, but nobody had a clue what was behind their disguise at first. With Anya it was totally different: Xander and the rest knew who she was, yet they decided to act as if nothing mattered. And the reason for everyone to adopt such an attitude (aside from lobotomy) was... ?

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Would somebody tell me what was so bleeding funny about Xander spending the entire Prom night listening to hellbitch's gruesome stories involving blood and gore told in a casual way?

But he doesn't.  Anya begins by babbling on about her vengeance-filled past, but that's clearly because she's nervous (and Xander feels trapped and is regretting his choice, as seen in his being glad to see Wesley, even), but once the couples settle in on the dance floor, Anya feels at home and stops with the remembrances of slaughters past.  We end the episode with her calm ("this isn't bad") and Xander at ease.

Spoiler

 

And in the next episode, she no longer luxuriates in the idea of death and gore; instead she shares important information with the Scoobies about the Ascension she witnessed, and then she tries to get Xander to leave with her, for his own safety.  And she's clearly developed feelings for him.  That's character growth; Anya's S3 arc is very well-handled.

Her arc thereafter…well, that's another story.  But let's not rewrite this episode because of it, I say.

 

[lembergwatcher]

My FAQ concerning The Prom is: do Bangel fans hate Joyce for telling Angel to back off with the same passion as Xander for telling The Lie™?  

Spoiler

And btw what would Buffy do if she learned about J/A conversation prior to Angel's announcement about his decision to break up?

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

My FAQ concerning The Prom is: do Bangel fans hate Joyce for telling Angel to back off with the same passion as Xander for telling The Lie™?  

  Hide contents

And btw what would Buffy do if she learned about J/A conversation prior to Angel's announcement about his decision to break up?

I don't think so, there was no deception on Joyce's part. 

[lembergwatcher]

Sneaking behind Buffy's back without saying a word? Not a deception, of course. As a loving and caring mother Joyce just wanted a better life for her only daughter. But then one must also admit that what Xander said in Becoming, Part 2 wasn't a "deception" either. The guy was saving mankind's collective ass - including Buffy's. Either hate both Xander and Joyce or accept each of them did what they did for the best of reasons.

[Halting Hex]

Well, a certain segment of B/A fandom claims that Xander only did what he did because he wanted Buffy, carnally.  (Despite already his having a girlfriend, and declaring his love for Coma!Willow in that same episode.)  Presumably, they don't think that Joyce has that sort of motive for wanting to break up Buffy+Angel 4eva!

At least, not unless they've gotten into some of Joe's more exotic fanfic archives…

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Sneaking behind Buffy's back without saying a word? Not a deception, of course. As a loving and caring mother Joyce just wanted a better life for her only daughter. But then one must also admit that what Xander said in Becoming, Part 2 wasn't a "deception" either. The guy was saving mankind's collective ass - including Buffy's. Either hate both Xander and Joyce or accept each of them did what they did for the best of reasons.

I hate neither, I appreciate both for what they did, much like Giles with the Acathla issue or Buffy hiding Angel's return. 

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, a certain segment of B/A fandom claims that Xander only did what he did because he wanted Buffy, carnally.  (Despite already his having a girlfriend, and declaring his love for Coma!Willow in that same episode.)  Presumably, they don't think that Joyce has that sort of motive for wanting to break up Buffy+Angel 4eva!

At least, not unless they've gotten into some of Joe's more exotic fanfic archives…

They both loved her (in a different way) and did what they thought what was best for her. Remember she lied to them too for their own sake?

[lembergwatcher]

Two "million dollar questions" regarding 3.20.

1. Why does 1000-plus-something-years-old x-vengeance demon even have to consider wasting time with a bunch of kids on the dancefloor? Shouldn't she seek ways and means to get her powers back? 

Spoiler

Ain't it funny how she was able to use her connections in the demon world in search of an answers regarding The First four years later, but couldn't use those same connections to solve her little problem. Anyway, the beginning of Xanya was as stupid as the entire history of this shitty 'ship.

2. What could Xander have been possibly doing since he was obviously a fifth wheel during Buffy/Willow constant socializing?  Did he have friends of his own? Did he learn to play guitar or attend the chess club? And why should he of all people be at that stupid prom?

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Why does 1000-plus-something-years-old x-vengeance demon even have to consider wasting time with a bunch of kids on the dancefloor?

Anya herself explains this when Xander asks her:

Quote

ANYA: You know, this happens to be all your fault. 
XANDER: My fault? 
ANYA: You were unfaithful to Cordelia so I took on the guise of a twelfth-grader to tempt her with the Wish. When I lost my powers I got stuck in this persona, and now I have all these feelings. I don't understand it. I don't like it. All I know is I really want to go to this dance and I want someone to go with me. 

Simple enough.  As for regaining her powers, she tried, it didn't work, and presumably Willow isn't going to be helping her with any spells any time soon.

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

2. What could Xander have been possibly doing since he was obviously a fifth wheel during Buffy/Willow constant socializing? 

Fourth wheel.  Buffy's (soon-to-be-ex-) boyfriend isn't really one for these daytime hangouts, what with not going to school, not to mention the whole "bursting into flame" issue.  Xander doesn't look to be pushed out of the group dynamic, even if he's not getting any smoochies, I wouldn't say.

Heck, even Willow's own "taciturn man" doesn't exactly dominate the conversation, not to mention that he's often away with his band, anyhow.  The Three Musketeers are still the Three Musketeers.

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

And why should he of all people be at that stupid prom?

It's a big school event, people want to feel included.  No big surprise.

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Anya herself explains this when Xander asks her:

The thing is I don't buy her explanations - much like anything else she says.  Xander doesn't buy the whole "Angel has a soul - he's good guy now" concept most of the time, why should he believe the "I lost my powers and now I really-really want to go to this dance" bullshit? Did Anya tell the Scoobs about the reasons she's lost her powers, i.e. the Wish in Doppelgangland, since Xander doesn't ask any more questions on the matter (everyone seems to have their Wishverse-related memories erased after Giles destroyed the pendant)?

 

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

As for regaining her powers, she tried, it didn't work, and presumably Willow isn't going to be helping her with any spells any time soon.

What kind of Hellmouth is this when the only super-powered person available happens to be the 18-years-old nervous schoolgirl? No other competent mages or wiccas around? How about Sunnydale's large demon community? Isn't she supposed to have some, you know, valuable social connections among certain circles of the town's populace? Instead of wasting her time on Xander, who's of no help to her, shouldn't Lady Hellbitch be searching local demon bars or trying to seduce/bribe Willy? I don't believe for a second the powerful demon with 1118 years of "working experience" can give up so easily and go with the flow stuck in the horny schoolgirl's persona. Shouldn't (former) vengeance demons be a little less conformist?

 

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

The Three Musketeers are still the Three Musketeers.

The Two and a Half Musketeers. Most of the time. Neither Deadboy nor Wolfboy are the parts of the original Scooby Gang - hence I don't care much whether they are around or not. I do understand Xander has no place on the sacred grounds of Buffy's and Willow's bedrooms anymore, but he's usually nowhere to be found when the two of them socialize on school property either.

[Halting Hex]

15 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Xander doesn't buy the whole "Angel has a soul - he's good guy now" concept most of the time, why should he believe the "I lost my powers and now I really-really want to go to this dance" bullshit?

Because Angel, even when ensouled, still has a mass-murdering demon inside of him, straining to break free.  As Angel said when he was choking Willow in Innocence, "I am Angel! At last!"  The soul restrains that guy; it doesn't erase him.

Whereas Anya is now 100% human.  Her complete recall of and seeming fondness for her demonic past aside.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Good point. Although being 100% human doesn't equate being harmless, and who could know it better than our Xander (hello, Dr. Weirick, Fritz, Eric, Ethan and Mrs. Post)? 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:25 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Two "million dollar questions" regarding 3.20.

1. Why does 1000-plus-something-years-old x-vengeance demon even have to consider wasting time with a bunch of kids on the dancefloor? Shouldn't she seek ways and means to get her powers back? 

  Hide contents

Ain't it funny how she was able to use her connections in the demon world in search of an answers regarding The First four years later, but couldn't use those same connections to solve her little problem. Anyway, the beginning of Xanya was as stupid as the entire history of this shitty 'ship.

2. What could Xander have been possibly doing since he was obviously a fifth wheel during Buffy/Willow constant socializing?  Did he have friends of his own? Did he learn to play guitar or attend the chess club? And why should he of all people be at that stupid prom?

1. Because Anya is not Anyanka, her transformation is physical but also mental and that affects her more and more over time

2. The Scoobs WERE Xander's social life to a great extent, hence his feelings in The Zeppo 

Spoiler

and his eagerness to reform the gang in The Freshman?

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because Anya is not Anyanka, her transformation is physical but also mental and that affects her more and more over time

Well, I agree with "mental" transformation.

Spoiler

She becomes unbearably annoying and a little bit insane.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:54 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Well, I agree with "mental" transformation.

  Hide contents

She becomes unbearably annoying and a little bit insane.

Irksome yes, especially to Willow. Insane, yes. Adorable, yes. 

[Halting Hex]

Watching another video reviewer's look at this one, and I spotted something on the notebook Buffy was doodling on:

Besides the "Buffy&Angel 4Ever" that occupies most of the shot, below that we see that Buffy has simply written her name, and it only dawned on me this time what this is.  What else do teenage girls write in their notebooks?  That's right, their (hypothetical) married name, so they can imagine their future!

I mean, were Buffy dating Xander, this notebook would probably have doodles reading "Buffy Harris", "Buffy S. Harris", "Mrs. Buffy Summers-Harris" and maybe, if she decides she's the Alpha (Slayer privilege at work!), "Xander Summers".  But since we've never heard Angel's last name (he must have had one, back in Ireland in his human days at least), all we get is "Buffy" looking IMO so lost and forlorn down there.

More importantly, forgetting about what we know about Angel, the lack of any doodlings invoking his surname shows that Buffy doesn't know it, that he's never talked about his human life enough for Buffy to ask basic questions.  (Does she even know where he's from in Ireland, I wonder?)  Not a very healthy relationship, I'm thinking.

Moving onto Buffy's "wedding" in that episode, we notice that the church is completely empty behind the couple.  (Sorry I couldn't find a screencap.  But I did learn that Buffy's wearing Vera Wang, if that helps.)  But since this is Angel's nightmare (ending in Buffy burning up in the daylight), what does the absence of Giles, Willow, Xander, Oz, Cordy, and Joyce say about this scene?  (I can understand Joss skimping on the extras, but you're already paying ASH/Aly/Nick/Seth/CC/Kristine for this one…might as well get your money's worth.)  

Is it that Angel fears Buffy's family and friends would reject him?  Well, then you should have done a better job of trying to mend fences, dick.

Or is it that Angel just doesn't give a shit whether Buffy's family and friends are part of their life together?  Don't be such a dick, dick.

However, we do get a clue that contradicts this later in the episode, but it's buried because IMO David fails to communicate nonverbally, IMO.

Quote

BUFFY: Don't what? Don't love you? I'm sorry. You know what? I didn't know that I got a choice in that. I'm never gonna change. I can't change. I want my life to be with you. 
ANGEL: I don't. 
BUFFY: You don't want to be with me?

Now, since we have the liberty of looking back (and since we saw the Angel/Joyce scene that Buffy didn't), we can realize that Angel isn't saying he doesn't want Buffy (it's only been ten episodes since he was telling her in Amends that he wanted her so badly he didn't care if he'd lose his soul again), but that he doesn't want Buffy wasting her life on him.  But Buffy, understandably, misses this nuance and so does the reactor I'm watching (and so, probably, did a good part of the audience) because David just goes blank-faced here.  I'm not saying he has to be full-on about to say "no, I meant-", but complete stoicism leaves too many of the viewers as confused as Buffy is, IMO.  Not the best choice.

And then, of course, we come to the climax, with Buffy getting her "toy surprise", the Class Protector umbrella.  Nice to see that Jonathan is out of therapy so quickly, I suppose.  Although I'd like to think you get more of a suspension for bringing a sniper rifle to the bell tower, claims of "suicide" aside.  Snyder, you big softy, you.  

Spoiler

But hey, Jonny was in therapy long enough to get a world-altering spell dumped into his lap, so he probably figured he'd gotten all he needed out of it.  I wonder, was he planning Superstar even here?  Were thoughts of twin-rape already dancing through his brain? Hmm.

And then Angel shows up to dance with Buffy even though he broke up with her just a few days ago. Dump the girl and get to take her to Prom.  Wow, that's really a case of having your cake and eating it too, isn't it?  

Hope he doesn't have a hotel room reserved for later (hey, he's still broken up, how happy can he really be, right?), but I don't know…Dear Forehead seems to be pretty heavy on the hutzpah here, I'm just saying.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Or is it that Angel just doesn't give a shit whether Buffy's family and friends are part of their life together?  Don't be such a dick, dick.

This would be my guess. 

Spoiler

It appears that Spike's not the only vampire who prefers Buffy separated from friends and family. 

 

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

And then, of course, we come to the climax, with Buffy getting her "toy surprise", the Class Protector umbrella.  Nice to see that Jonathan is out of therapy so quickly, I suppose.  Although I'd like to think you get more of a suspension for bringing a sniper rifle to the bell tower, claims of "suicide" aside.  Snyder, you big softy, you.  

Not only is he at the prom, he comes w/ a date. Either she was part of his group therapy or she hadn't heard that he brought the rifle to campus. I am bothered by him being in the final dance scene. You have Buffy and Angel, then close by is Willow and Oz, then ... Jonathan and date. No Xander dancing close by his friends. I always found that jarring. Unless he and Cordy are dancing together on the side while Wesley and Anya stand next to each other in uncomfortable silence. Then I'd allow it. 

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Either [Jonathan's date] was part of his group therapy or she hadn't heard that he brought the rifle to campus.

Or Xander was right in Innocence about how the girls like to look at the big guns…

As penis metaphors go, apparently it beats a '57 Bel Air convertible.  Pity.

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I am bothered by him being in the final dance scene. You have Buffy and Angel, then close by is Willow and Oz, then ... Jonathan and date. No Xander dancing close by his friends. I always found that jarring.

Well, me too. And something tells me Xander's absence was no coincidence.  To be fair I don't quite understand what's he doing here, with these people, after The Zeppo, Consequences and Enemies?..

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

You have Buffy and Angel, then close by is Willow and Oz, then ... Jonathan and date. No Xander dancing close by his friends. I always found that jarring.

Well, maybe Anya is uncomfortable dancing so close to the only people in the room who know about her demonic past.  And Xander humors her, since it's just for one night, after all. 

Spoiler

Yes, yes, I know.  But Xander doesn't, not at this point.  Let's enjoy the innocence, shall we?

And he probably knows that Willow is still uncomfortable around Anya (that whole tricking her into summoning Vamp!Willow bit still stings, no doubt), so he's keeping a discreet distance.

[lembergwatcher]

On 1/29/2019 at 8:01 PM, Halting Hex said:

But since we've never heard Angel's last name

Apart from Liam's last name, I'd be more than happy to learn Joyce's maiden name and why she doesn't use it after divorse, Drusilla's human name and Snyder's first name. I'd like to see Ira Rosenberg and Casa Rosenberg's exterior in the daylight either.

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Snyder's first name

"R." , per the name plate on his desk.  😉

[lembergwatcher]

"R"?

"R" could stand for a lot of names: Robert, Reginald, Richard, Rupert, Randall, Rhett, Rephael, Rafael, Ronald, Rowan, Roger e.t.c.  A wide choice, I must say.

[Halting Hex]

Or maybe it's just "R." and the Snyders were just extremely pithy.  Or extremely unimaginative.  Or both. 🙂

[VCRTracking]

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Giles: Angel's not taking you, is he?
Buffy: Angel's leaving me. He's leaving town.
Giles: Oh, Buffy, I'm sorry. I don't really know what to say. Um, I understand that this sort of thing requires ice cream of some kind?
Buffy: Ice cream will come. First, I want to take out psycho boy.
Giles: You sure?
Buffy: The great thing about being a Slayer, kicking ass is comfort food.

There's something ironic (or should I say cynical?) about the fact that it's Giles of all people who has to comfort Buffy over her breakup with Angel. And, of course, our Tweed Boy gives her sympathy, because screw moral, screw logic and screw plot consistency. Is this the same Giles who scolded Buffy in Revelations, decided to spend some time away from his Slayer in Lovers Walk or pointed a crossbow at Dear Forehead in Amends? Poor Jenny, she must be rolling in her grave...

[Halting Hex]

Well, Giles wants to see Buffy happy.  Whether it's because keeping his Slayer functional is his duty (technically Wesley's duty now, but Giles doesn't trust Wes to handle Buffy) or whether it's because he's madly in love with Buffy, as some 'shippers think, or anywhere between the two. 

He's shown that he's capable of putting away his own feelings to help her, from defending the use of the Restoration spell in Becoming Part 1, to answering Buffy's questions about Forehead's possible return in Beauty & the Beasts, to researching the First Evil to save Angel from its torments in Amends.  None of this is the dedication to pure vengeance that Enyos and Jana might prefer, but despite the emotional outbursts you cite above, it is the dedication to the bigger picture/Buffy's happiness that Giles has been fairly consistent about, for over the past year. 

A little ice cream, a few words of comfort, a dance at the Prom, and then back to the Library for hot sweaty sex inside the book cage…hardly inconsistent with the G-Man's general pattern here, IMO.  One could argue that it's emotionally abusive for Buffy to ask Giles to put aside his feelings this way (I believe I've written pretty much exactly that re B&tB) but it doesn't change the fact that Giles has been able to do just that, and so his behavior here is in keeping with his general response to Buffy's continuing corpse fetish, posters' own preferences aside.  

Even if Angel did steal his dance and Giles had to go home and masturbate listen to Bay City Rollers instead, anyway.

[lembergwatcher]

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

it is the dedication to the bigger picture/Buffy's happiness that Giles has been fairly consistent about

I appreciate Giles' dedication to Buffy's happiness here, but I expect some dedication to justice for Jenny either.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said:

I appreciate Giles' dedication to Buffy's happiness here, but I expect some dedication to justice for Jenny either.

The man who killed Jenny doesn't exist once Willow restores his soul. 

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The man who killed Jenny doesn't exist once Willow restores his soul. 

If he doesn't exist the whole Angel's "redemption" arc has zero sense.

[Halting Hex]

The demon is always there;  Liam may be driving the car 98% of the time, but the fangs don't go away.

Spoiler

Except once.  And Angel promptly throws that away because he'd rather have his superpowers than trust Buffy to take care of herself, the asshole.  (Saw a Bangel relationship vid, a classic tearjerker, and was amazed at how triggered I was by the IWRY footage, seeing as I rarely watch that episode.  I'm talking clenched-fist, shaking-with-impotent-rage anger.  To put Buffy through that, after all she's endured for him…)

And if Angel's claims in Forgiving are to be believed, he's capable of some very cruel things, even with the soul.  Although Gunn and Fred stopped him before things got too far out of control, thankfully.

[lembergwatcher]

One thing I do appreciate is Giles' patience in the face of Buffy's insensitivity. 

Revelations: Giles openly scolds his Slayer for hiding Angel. He reminds her about the torment he suffered at the hands of Buffy's ex-lover while Buffy is totally unable to either say "I'm sorry" or express sympathy for her Watcher and his sacrifice in other way. Seems like his words have no effect on her whatsoever. Buffy goes after Lagos just to bribe Giles ("Here's your dead demon so STFU and stop looking at me like that!") therefore she can feel good about herself and not to think hiding a monster is not a right thing to do, after all.   

Lovers Walk: Giles asks Buffy whether she will continue seeing Angel and her answer is "yes". It's almost like saying "Screw you, Tweed Boy and screw your dead Gypsy girlfriend. I'll be seeing Angel no matter what, because he's good now!" Yes, Forehead is "good" now and the main proof we have are Buffy's words. Dunno what bugs me the most: Buffy's arrogance or lack of proper response from G-Man?..

Amends: Buffy almost makes Giles go along with her efforts to save Angel from The First. Giles obeys even though the pain of losing Jenny can't go away that fast. Buffy gets her boyfriend back soon afterwards. Angel is a "good man" from now on, Bangel fans pee their pants in delight

Spoiler

and Jenny's name is never mentioned again throughout the next 100 eps of Buffy or 122 eps of Angel. Like she's never existed.

The Prom: Buffy's looking for sympathy after Angel decided to call it quits and tells Giles about Bangel fans' worst nightmare. And our Tweed Boy, without further ado, turns into Support-o-Guy. Jenny? Acathla? Hours of torture? Hundreds of people murdered in cold blood during the past year? Fuck it. Buffy's happiness is the only thing that really matters.

Like I said, Rupert's loyalty to his Slayer is something that has to be appreciated but sometimes acceptance and support of anything the person does or says do the said person no good in the long run.

[Halting Hex]

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy goes after Lagos just to bribe Giles

Well, she and Faith had already been charged with that task by Gwendolyn Post, Mrs.  It's not surprising that being an obedient Slayer is the only thing Buffy can think to offer to repair the relationship.  Okay, maybe a nice blowjob, but still. I mean, she's in this whole mess because she believes that Angel deserves another chance, so it would be hypocritical of her to turn on him now.

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Giles asks Buffy whether she will continue seeing Angel and her answer is "yes".

Giles doesn't get to decide Buffy's life.  Indeed, if he had unilateral authority, he wouldn't have had to ask the question, would he?

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Yes, Forehead is "good" now and the main proof we have are Buffy's words.

Well, also the part where "he saved [Willow] from a horrible flamey death", which you could argue was authorial convenience, but even so.  Willow still isn't dead, which I consider a good thing.

Although even if it's to be believed that Angel's status is now re-set to status quo ante boinkage, it does seem to me that there should be a deeper discussion about Angel having a whole wide Buffy-distant world in which to make amends, to prevent any recurrence.  Buffy's giving her word about her future abstinence is the part I'd be side-eyeing here.  I mean, I'm sure she has the best of intentions, but (to quote the Mayor) she's "a blossoming young girl" and flowers do tend to open up.

So unless the gang is going to pony up and buy Faith a nice strap-on…

(Hey, Faith's got enough trouble making rent!  A little support from the support system, that's all she asks.)

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy almost makes Giles go along with her efforts to save Angel from The First. Giles obeys even though the pain of losing Jenny can't go away that fast.

Actually Giles was won over, however reluctantly, by Angel's visit.  And, part of being a Watcher is dealing with supernatural menaces; it's proper for Giles to put his own feelings aside, no matter how painful they might be.

The part of Amends that makes me cringe is Xander getting the "Hanukkah spirit" and helping out, despite having made an excellent case in Act I (and going all the way back to Becoming, Part 1) that being all "come home, all is forgiven" is ridiculous.  It's still bizarre that Xander has less of an objection to Buffy/Angel post-Angelus than before, I'm just saying.

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Spoiler

and Jenny's name is never mentioned again throughout the next 100 eps of Buffy or 122 eps of Angel. Like she's never existed.

Spoiler

Well, it did get mentioned in the early drafts of Empty Places, but they changed their mind on that.  Which I think I approve of, tbh.  I do like that ASH is IMO pretty clearly remembering Jenny when he's praising Buffy for her coping skills at the end of Wild at Heart, but that's not specified in the script and it's true that Jenny's name goes unsaid.

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

The Prom: Buffy's looking for sympathy after Angel decided to call it quits…And our Tweed Boy, without further ado, turns into Support-o-Guy. Jenny? Acathla? Hours of torture? Hundreds of people murdered in cold blood during the past year? Fuck it.

The time for Giles to raise those objections would have been earlier in the season, when he had to deal with Angel's return and Buffy's ongoing interest in him.  Now that the re-relationship has been going on for months, hearing that it's over is cause for celebration, not carping.  Giles simply has the class not to say "I told you so!" to Buffy's face and to make sure that his Slayer remains fully functional.  He can break out the champagne in private, later.

Indeed, he may actually have done so, as being drunk might do a bit to explain his "18 is legal, go for it, bro!" dubious advice to Wesley.  Perhaps a sober Giles might be a little less willing to encourage the pursuit of Barely Legal Hot Cordy Ass…but hey, Rupert just had his dream come true, so why should Wesley suffer, right?

Spoiler

Perhaps the truly bizarre thing is that nobody scored any after Prom, as the events of Graduation Day 1 (Willoz), Graduation Day 2 (Wes/Cordy), The Harsh Light of Ripping off a Better Episode (Xanya) and Angel's continued soulfulness attest.  Four couples and no action?  Any more Proms like this and the local Hyatt is going to have to close up shop… 😞

Maybe Jonathan kept them going, I guess.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Giles doesn't get to decide Buffy's life.

Of course, he doesn't. Although it's kinda funny how Bangel goes from private issue when everything's relatively alright to everybody's pain in the ass when things spin out of control.

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

It's still bizarre that Xander has less of an objection to Buffy/Angel post-Angelus than before, I'm just saying.

I think Xander simply has no choice here. Either he tolerates Angel's existence or his friendship with Buffy (and Willow) goes bye-bye.

[lembergwatcher]

I always wondered who was Larry's prom date. And whether the SHS prom committee was open-minded enough to allow Larry to take the date of his choice or Larry and the other guy had some kind of "anti-prom" like Jack and Ethan from Dawson's Creek?

[Halting Hex]

Depends how much pull Larry's grandma (setting him up with guys, per Earshot) has with the School Board, I guess.

Snyder seemed a bit terrified of the Board in an earlier ep, but my $ is on Nana Blaisdell.

[DisneyBoy]

I rather liked this episode, though I expected the reunion with Angel at the end and the slow dance. That's pretty cliche but it worked. I like that the show took a few episodes to set up Angel's departure. This is my first watch through the show so I don't know what's to come, only that Angel got a spin-off.

The hellhounds thing was pretty half-baked. Usually they put a little bit more effort into explaining why high school kids do the evil that they do. He raised hellhounds just because he didn't have a date to the prom? That felt pretty lazy. Same with the inserted flashback to his rejection.

I rather enjoyed Wesley and Cordelia. I wonder if they ever revisit them as a couple. I guess I'll have to keep watching and find out. I thought it was kind of strange to introduce the idea of Cordelia losing all her money so late in the season though. Was it just done so that Xander could have his white knight moment by buying her the dress? And exactly how expensive was that dress that Cordelia, after apparently working at the store for at least a few weeks, still couldn't afford it? I suppose it's possible that she was budgeting her paychecks to put money away for tuition and saving for the dress incrementally, but if she was really being that sensible then she probably just wouldn't have cared about some dress she'd wear for one night.

The moment with the umbrella and the class recognizing Buffy as their protector could have really been cheesy, but I thought it really worked.

I didn't quite understand all the hoopla about prom being the happiest night of your life, but then I never understood that hype back when I was in HS either.

Edited December 3, 2019 by DisneyBoy

[lembergwatcher]

On 11/30/2019 at 10:52 AM, DisneyBoy said:

I'd rather liked this episode, though I expected the reunion with Angel at the end and the slow dance. That's pretty cliche but it worked.

So you say Xander became "problematic" for you because of what he said and did (in the possessed state) in The Pack, but you're OK with the idea of Buffy and Angel dating after all the atrocities soulless Angel commited during the second half of the second season? Angel is not in the least bit problematic for you? Breaking with Buffy is one of the best things Angel has ever done IMO.

On 11/30/2019 at 10:52 AM, DisneyBoy said:

I didn't quite understand all the hoopla about prom being the happiest night of your life, but then I never understood that hype back when I was in HS either.

I'm totally with you here. Numerous cliches are among the series' weaknesses, I must say. Be it "librarians know nothing about sex" (S.02E.17 Passion), "girls like guys with cars" (S.03E.13 The Zeppo) or "prom is the happiest night of every high schooler's life" expressed in this particular episode. If there's no hoopla with the prom night, part of the episode's plot just won't work. If proms are not a big deal than Tucker doesn't have to unleash all those hellhounds on account of his hurt pride and can find something better to do - just like Xander isn't obliged to pick up an unrepentant mass murderer ex-demon Anya as his prom date. He can simply stay at home. But since neither Tucker nor Xander can find some normal girls to accompany them (because good girls just don't fall for guys like those two according to writers), and prom is such a wonderful and larger than life event, one has no choice but to tear all the other students apart, and the other must listen to Anya's stories about her "glory days" as a vengeance demon.  

[DisneyBoy]

9 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

So you say Xander became "problematic" for you because of what he said and did (in the possessed state) in The Pack, but you're OK with the idea of Buffy and Angel dating after all the atrocities soulless Angel commited during the second half of the second season? Angel is not in the least bit problematic for you? Breaking with Buffy is one of the best things Angel has ever done IMO

Hey! I didn't realize people were responding to my post. Thanks for taking the time 🙂

Oh I am totally not cosigning Buffy and Angel's relationship after the atrocities season 2, LOL. I accepted Buffy and Angel as a sort of formulaic star-crossed lovers thing. There's not really much to them as individuals, so I don't see them as real people as much as just your standard cardboard cutout female lead and bad boy boyfriend. The show wants us to care about them because they look pretty together, but you're absolutely right: he's spent centuries murdering and devouring human beings, and it's laughable for a teenage girl like Buffy to look the other way on that just because he tries to protect her a little bit and got screwed out of having a life because he was bitten at a young age. If she's even semi intelligent, and takes her duties as a Slayer seriously, she shouldn't be giving him a second glance knowing what he's capable of based on what she's seeing other vampires do.

The sheer fact that he murdered Giles' girlfriend should have put the axe in their whole relationship. Giles has repeatedly shown loyalty towards Buffy and gone out of his way to be nice to her family and friends. From what little I've seen of the other Watchers on the show, keeping in mind I'm only at season 4 right now, something tells me they're not often as involved or as paternal as Giles has been. Buffy is very lucky to have him, and him looking the other way on Buffy dating Angel is probably the most loving thing he could possibly ever do. He seems to understand that she is lonely and wants a dreamy sexy older boyfriend, so why not let her have that experience rather than arguing with her about it and pushing her away and making her choose. He seems to acknowledge that she's just a kid and has to make her own mistakes, but from where I stand, Buffy taking care of Angel and feeling sorry for herself that she can't have sex with him again spits on the fact that she should be loyal to Giles enough to tell Angel to fend for himself and stay the hell away from her and everybody else.

I think the bigger problem is that the show really likes its monsters, and wants you to look beyond the obvious logic problems just so that they can stay on the show longer. A character like Spike is clearly a bad guy, and yet I'm having fun watching him and looking the other way on the fact that none of the characters should ever tolerate him or chat with him or work with him. Again, I'm only on season 4, but I know he shows up as a love interest for Buffy in "Once More, With Feeling" so I'm kind of wondering how the show manages to make them palatable as a couple, beyond the actor's obvious charisma.

It actually sort of bothers me that the other Slayers on the show who are so matter-of-fact about killing vampires are sometimes shaded in a negative light, as opposed to Buffy who's supposed to be more human for trying to see the humanity in Angel specifically, but never any of the other vampires. It's extremely selective. It just hammers home the point that if you're hot, you got plenty of second chances in life because people are attracted to you. In my mind, Buffy should be trying to kill every single vampire as quickly as possible, no exceptions. But then the show wouldn't have much dramatic potential, would it?

Since you brought up Xander, I also think that there's a huge contrast in how they portray the two characters. Both men have similar physiques and dark features, but Xander is shown to be insecure, constantly babbling, trying to be funny, and a bit of a baby when it comes to the way women treat him.. Angel on the other hand keeps his mouth mostly shut, is constantly just listening to Buffy babbling, and very rarely if ever smiles. He was kind of your typical GQ underwear model stereotype. What's ironic though, is that Angel often comes off better than Xander. Xander is a good guy and doesn't go around hurting people, but maybe that makes his missteps (whether or not they are spell-induced) all the more glaring. As opposed to Angel, who has a laundry list of sins, so as soon as he's being nice to someone it's like a special moment that makes you go "awwwww - maybe there's some good to him! When can we see more of it? I hope things turn out all right for him!"

I think it just brings it back to the whole conversation of why women chase bad boys. They always think that they can change or fix them. Angel is a perfect example of this. He is largely a nice guy over the course of the show, until Angelus is unleashed and then he's terrible...and to Buffy's credit she accepts pretty quickly that she must kill him. Of course the show drags this out for the second half of the second season, which in my mind was way too long. Trap him and kill him and end it and stop stalling! But no, because he's a handsome love interest and may possibly still be redeemed, let's let him live and make Buffy feel conflicted and let other people die in the meantime. And then when he comes back for season three, she spends a hell of a lot of time helping him out and hoping that they can make it work somehow. Was she expecting to never sleep with him again for the rest of her life? Was she never going to be haunted by the sins he'd committed?

I just watched the season four episode where Buffy gets seduced by that college guy who uses the same vulnerable act with all the girls on campus. I think that episode hammers home exactly why I have problems with both Xander and Angel. The show has made Angel a kind of manipulative character by making us feel sorry for him and never giving him quirks because he's just supposed to be tall, dark, silent and sexy. Then there's Xander, who's very human and fleshed out, but also has a certain level of aggression to him that makes him repellent. It's like Angel knows how to act and behave to seduce and be intriguing to Buffy (aka the manipulative bad boy schtick), and Xander doesn't, but they make his humanity so grating that you can't like him either as a love interest. If they had dialed down Xander's annoying habits just a little, I would have liked him a lot more and rooted for him a lot more.

I think that's why I so enjoyed Cordelia and Xander as a couple. They both forced the other to shut up and act on their attraction...and I had hoped in time if they stayed a couple, they'd be able to work out some of their insecurities and be better off for it. And even if they didn't, at least they both were being awful to each other and that was certainly more entertaining than watching Xander purposefully ignore Willow's feelings for him or bitterly throwing jabs at Buffy for not returning his feelings. As long as they were both behaving a bit like jerks, Cordelia and Xander deserved each other. That relationship made them both much more palatable. Alas.

Breaking things off with Buffy was definitely the best move Angel could have made, and showed him to be worthy of her affections. I think the problem with vampires in general is that they are inherently selfish. If they really don't want to hurt other people because they realize what they're doing is wrong, then suicide or trying to find a cure are the options they should spend their time pursuing. Instead, we tend to see vampires sort of hanging around, moping and being all emo and self-pitying, or hooking up with very much alive women who could absolutely have better options for their lives than someone undead. And of course it plays mind games with these gals, because of the aforementioned attraction to bad boys and wanting to fix them. Her relationship with Angel was doomed from the start and Buffy knew that. And yet she and the show went ahead with it. And frankly I'm not really sure what we the audience or Buffy learned from the whole thing. It's not like she's a better or different person because of her experiences with Angel. And someone as pretty as Buffy could have easily had any other kind of boyfriend in high school she wanted, so I'm kind of baffled at the shallowness of it all.

I think it's also noteworthy that the show never cured Angel of being a vampire and brought him back to life for real (again, no spoilers please!), because something tells me if there was a curse that could manage to restore his soul, there was probably some other spell somewhere that could free him of the vampire thing and let him keep that soul and keep living. I mean they're making up the mythology as they go so there's no reason why Joss couldn't have just made Angel a real boy Pinocchio Style and then continued on with the character. Except for the big fact that a huge part of his appeal as a character was the fact that he was damned and a vampire and the problems that created. I think that all points to my reasons for being bored with Angel. He's just not an interesting person. You take away the vampire angle and then what would he be? Buffy's 25 year old boyfriend? What are you going to do with him then? Have him get a job in accounting, rent an apartment for them to share and adopt a puppy? Maybe the show could have gone in that direction, but the show loves its monsters, so Angel had to stay a monster.

As for comparing Xander and Angel and them being problematic, I also have to point out that the show gave Xander a beat of wanting to rape Buffy for not being attracted to him, and I don't remember them doing the same thing with Angel or Angelus. Angelus certainly taunted Buffy about the fact that she had slept with him, but he wasn't looking to rape her from what I recall. Xander as a hyena probably would have raped Buffy the way that scene was going. Once you see that side of someone, it's hard to unsee it.

9 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

If proms are not a big deal than Tucker doesn't have to unleash all those hellhounds on account of his hurt pride and can find something better to do - just like Xander isn't obliged to pick up an unrepentant mass murderer ex-demon Anya as his prom date.

LOL yeah it's clear they're exploring Anya as a love interest more because of the possible stories it could lead to than the logic of it. Xander has already seen what happens in pretty much every relationship involving a demonic person, and yet here he is willingly spending time with a woman who spent an eternity punishing men. Xander is not so stupid as to think he's a perfect man. He knows he's flawed. So it seems only a matter of time before he does something that pisses her off, and she gets back her evil mojo just like Angelus did and turns into a whole freaking nightmare.

But if they didn't go down this road, there wouldn't be a show, so I'm just going to look the other way on it and try to enjoy the ride.

...on a personal note, I never understood the logic behind the hoopla regarding prom. In essence, it's supposed to be a big party to celebrate that you finished school, not some public coming out for couples to show off that they're together and suggesting to the community that they're going to get engaged and get married or something, right? And it certainly isn't some big "Lose Your Virginity!" event. Teachers go out of their way to chaperone the hell out of the whole thing to make sure kids aren't going off and fooling around, and yet everybody knows that the pressure is on these kids to fool around if they're going to make the most of the real prom experience. It just doesn't make any sense to me, LOL. I mean, I remember guys scrambling to ask girls to be their date and all of this panic about not having someone to share photos with or sit in a limo next to. It just felt random and completely inane. It's not like any of these people who got prom dates necessarily even liked the person they went with. It's not a given that you have sex with your prom date or that you end up marrying them...so who cares?

But that's reality. I think maybe I have to lay the blame at TV and Movies' feet for making prom the equivalent of a wedding ceremony for the third act of their films and season finales of their TV shows.

Man this is a long post. I'll stop here 😁

[lembergwatcher]

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

If she's even semi intelligent, and takes her duties as a Slayer seriously, she shouldn't be giving him a second glance knowing what he's capable of based on what she's seeing other vampires do.

Yeah, you are 100% right. The thing is Buffy has never been an intellectual of the gang (she tried to stake a zombie in Dead Man's Party) and she herself admitted it in Helpless: "Before I becamethe Slayer I was... well I don't want to say shallow, but... let's just say a certain person who shall remain nameless, let's call her "Spordelia", looked like a classical philosopher next to me". And she let her feelings cloud her judgement far too often. 

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

The sheer fact that he murdered Giles' girlfriend should have put the axe in their whole relationship.

True, but Buffy/Angel shippers were the largest and most influential group among the fandom. And team Whedon cared more about ratings than plot consistency. And don't forget David Boreanaz was the female audience's erotic dream back than 😁

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Giles has repeatedly shown loyalty towards Buffy and gone out of his way to be nice to her family and friends. [...] Buffy is very lucky to have him, and him looking the other way on Buffy dating Angel is probably the most loving thing he could possibly ever do. He seems to understand that she is lonely and wants a dreamy sexy older boyfriend, so why not let her have that experience rather than arguing with her about it and pushing her away and making her choose. He seems to acknowledge that she's just a kid and has to make her own mistakes

Well... But Giles isn't really Buffy's liberal daddy. And Angel is clearly not some ordinary older guy his young "daughter" is in love with. He's a Watcher and she's his Slayer. Things that are OK or even loving between father and daughter are not always right between the Watcher and the Slayer. Letting a young girl make her own mistakes is normal if by "mistakes" we mean getting drunk at a party/losing virginity too early/getting pregnant/dropping out of college/marrying too soon. Tolerance for the things that can cause havoc/kill a lot of people (that what Buffy/Angel little love affair, blessed by Giles himself in season 2, ultimately led to) is unacceptable for someone is Giles' position. 

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

but Xander is shown to be insecure

Angel is a deeply insecure character too. He just hides it better than others. Just remember this exchange between him and Buffy from season 2's Some Assembly Required:

Quote

Buffy: Love makes you do the wacky.

Angel: What?

Buffy: Crazy stuff.

Angel: Oh. Crazy, like a two-hundred-and-forty-one-year-old being jealous of a high school junior?

Buffy: Are you fessing up?

Angel: I've thought about it. Maybe it bothers me a little.

Buffy: I don't love Xander.

Angel: Yeah, but he's in your life. He gets to be there when I can't. Take your classes, eat your meals, hear your jokes and complaints. He gets to see you in the sunlight.

Buffy: I don't look that good in direct light.

Spoiler

If you wanna know how jealous/insecure Angel can be, watch the spin-off - especially two final seasons.

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I also have to point out that the show gave Xander a beat of wanting to rape Buffy for not being attracted to him, and I don't remember them doing the same thing with Angel or Angelus. Angelus certainly taunted Buffy about the fact that she had slept with him, but he wasn't looking to rape her from what I recall. Xander as a hyena probably would have raped Buffy the way that scene was going. Once you see that side of someone, it's hard to unsee it.

1. Hyena!Xander tried to rape Buffy because he was possessed by an evil animalistic spirit, not because Buffy wasn't attracted to him. And I do not remember Buffy making it clear she wasn't interested in Xander that way as of The Pack (her semi-drunk mumbling in Witch doesn't count since she was under Catherine's spell). Xander asked her out in the first season's finale which means he had some hopes regarding Buffy. And if we do bring up Possessed!Xander's actions, why not bring up Willow's attempt to kill Buffy in Bad Eggs when Willow & the rest of the SHS (and even Buffy's mother herself) were under control of mommy Bezoar? 

2. Angelus was looking to rape, torture and kill Buffy from the get-go. He just wanted her to be the last one to die, wanted her to witness all her friends' and loved ones gruesome deaths first. Yes, Angel didn't jump on Buffy the way Hyena!Xander did, he just killed Jenny, killed Buffy's fellow student Theresa and many other people, tried to kill all Buffy's friends, orchestrated Kendra's murder and attempt to kill Joyce, tortured Giles for hours for pleasure and tried to destroy the world on two separate occasions. That makes him a little bit more problematic than Xander, I'd say.

3. But Buffy did eventually unsee the murderous demonic side of her first love Angel. She's forgiven him after he returned from whatever hell dimension at the beginning of the third season and made everyone else forgive him. Welcome home, Angel, boyo, all is forgiven. Buffy even dated (!) Angel from Amends til The Prom like nothing's happened.

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

What's ironic though, is that Angel often comes off better than Xander.

He doesn't. The fandom (and the writers) just liked him more and chose to turn a blind eye on his dark side for the most part.

Spoiler

In fact, Angel's assholism often created more problems than any display of immaturity on Xander's behalf. But... no spoilers 😉

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Xander is a good guy and doesn't go around hurting people, but maybe that makes his missteps (whether or not they are spell-induced) all the more glaring. As opposed to Angel, who has a laundry list of sins, so as soon as he's being nice to someone it's like a special moment that makes you go "awwwww - maybe there's some good to him! When can we see more of it? I hope things turn out all right for him!"

That's one way to look at it. From where I stand these are the double standards when we have one set of rules for Xander and another one for all the other characters. We see every single one of Xander's flaws but choose to ignore worse things commited by Angel, Buffy or someone else in the Buffyverse.

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Then there's Xander, who's very human and fleshed out, but also has a certain level of aggression to him that makes him repellent.

An interesting observation. Although there are lots of moments throughout the show that require Xander to respond in more or less agressive way, but he doesn't. I, for my part, think he should've been more agressive while trying to tell Anya he wasn't interested in her as a prom date.

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I think that's why I so enjoyed Cordelia and Xander as a couple.

You belong to the vast majority of Buffy fans who like that couple. As for me, I don't like them together at all. I still don't understand all that hoopla surrounding Xander/Cordelia or Willow/Oz. Maybe that's because I have always been in favor of Xander and Willow getting together and living happily ever after, who knows...

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Xander has already seen what happens in pretty much every relationship involving a demonic person, and yet here he is willingly spending time with a woman who spent an eternity punishing men. Xander is not so stupid as to think he's a perfect man. He knows he's flawed.

I couldn't agree more. But the plot requires him to display an abominable level of SS (suicidal stupidity). Because otherwise the plot won't work. There's no way in hell some normal girls can accept Xander's offer and be his prom dates. 'Cause girls love only "cool guys" (like Angel or Oz) - that's what Joss Whedon & his writing team are tryin' to tell us. And Xander is definitely not cool the way most people understand it. So the guy simply has no choice. He says it himself: "It's either Anya or the sock puppet of love for this boy". Well, if I were him, I would've chosen the sock puppet of love. And, as you yourself so eloquently put it, because of the hoopla regarding prom, options like "not going and staying at home" or "going to the movies/rock concert instead" aren't even considered.

Edited December 4, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

16 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Thanks for taking the time

You are welcome 🙂