S05.E11: The Dark Year

[CooperTV]

Quote

 As Clarke races to save Abby, she learns more about the trials and tribulations Wonkru faced in the bunker, and the impossible decisions they were forced to make in the dark year.

Promos

 

The advanced premiere is at SDCC July 18th.

[ottoDbusdriver]

In the ultimate TV crossover, we finally find out what happened during the year that Damien Darhk joined Wonkru in the bunker.  </sarcasm>

[Paloma]

So now we are supposed to feel sorry for Octavia because she "had" to murder people in cold blood in order to force them to become cannibals? Sorry, but no--she is not redeemable at all.

[Fireball]

52 minutes ago, Paloma said:

So now we are supposed to feel sorry for Octavia because she "had" to murder people in cold blood in order to force them to become cannibals? Sorry, but no--she is not redeemable at all.

Oh but you know it's not Octavia's fault; it's Kane's because he didn't have a better idea! "note sarcasm"

ETA: just watched some more of the episode... I guess it's Abby's fault. She's the one who pushed Octavia to kill people. 

Also Madi is impressed with what Octavia did?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Fireball

[Lady Calypso]

*gasp*

THEY'RE...CANNIBALS?!?! NO WAY! WHAT A SURPRISE!

Ok, but that was the most unsurprising reveal they've had yet. The only surprise to it was Abby pushing for Octavia to murder people for the cause. I get it; they were all in a tough position and needed to survive. It doesn't mean that Octavia is still redeemable after all that she's done after that. So yeah, this flashback portion got me to feel for her in that moment, because it was between a rock and a hard place. But Octavia chose her path for many years after that. They started cannibalizing 2 years into Praimfaya.

Also, to point out: 400'ish of the original Wonkru died, but several of them died before the cannibalism started. Are we to believe that they either made people conceive so the older people could be sacrificed for this cause? Or are we supposed to fanwank that 300'ish people were cannibalized to feed 800+ others? Because the idea of babies being born for cannibalism with the older folk is just as disturbing. 

I'm glad Madi pointed out the hypocrisy with Clarke. Yes Clarke, you really are no hero. She keeps telling Madi no, so obviously we're going to see her turn on her surrogate mother soon enough, and it's gonna be a betrayal for Clarke. That's what happens when you try to baby a teenager, especially one who is now a Commander. And honestly, I think I could easily be on Madi's side. 

Spacekru needs their own flashback episode. Maybe next season? I love each and every one of their dynamics. More of them for next season, please! I loved Bellamy turning the tables on Octavia by calling them "his family". This is what you get, Octavia, for being a cannibalistic dictator. 

No surprise on the Shaw/Raven romantic front. Though now I'm not so sure he'll survive the season. It depends if Jason Rothenberg wants Raven to have some happiness. 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

No surprise on the Shaw/Raven romantic front. Though now I'm not so sure he'll survive the season. It depends if Jason Rothenberg wants Raven to have some happiness

Doubt it.. He's a blk guy and the few we've had all died cept for miller... and it brings Raven happiness.. And nothing gets to make Raven happy for long... As for Bellamy and O... I haven't watched this epi.. But seeing as the poison he slipped her a while back could have easily killed her.. He's attempted a coup.. He sided with the guy who killed her man Lincoln... He stopped being her Family a while ago... I woulda ended him myself as soon as I was healthy... I'll prob read recaps and check the message boards until the season is over then binge everything I haven't seen yet... 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Ok, but that was the most unsurprising reveal they've had yet. The only surprise to it was Abby pushing for Octavia to murder people for the cause. I get it; they were all in a tough position and needed to survive. It doesn't mean that Octavia is still redeemable after all that she's done after that. So yeah, this flashback portion got me to feel for her in that moment, because it was between a rock and a hard place. But Octavia chose her path for many years after that. They started cannibalizing 2 years into Praimfaya.

But they likely think it makes Octavia redeemable.  What I'm finding the most difficult to overcome with Octavia is that she is making the "hard" choices but she is much more likely to avoid anything that affects her personally. Do everything possible to avoid putting Kane or Bellamy in the pit.  Did she plead and beg her other followers to take an out to avoid that fate?  Why didn't she just shoot Kane in the head to make the others eat.  Instead she kills a half dozen nameless Wonkru to force Kane to her will.

This show used to get some credit for making the "no one is safe" choice.  No more.  I think this episode would have been a lot more effective if the season started with Jaha MIA and no one really explaining what happened to him,  And then reveal ultimately, for his one episode, that Jaha refused to eat people and Octavia ultimately shot him in the head for it.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, to point out: 400'ish of the original Wonkru died, but several of them died before the cannibalism started. Are we to believe that they either made people conceive so the older people could be sacrificed for this cause? Or are we supposed to fanwank that 300'ish people were cannibalized to feed 800+ others? Because the idea of babies being born for cannibalism with the older folk is just as disturbing. 

I am not going to google my way into figuring out how many people have to die to keep a population of 800 alive if 10% of their diet for 3 years needs to be protein.  Or did I hear it was a one year problem until they got the soybeans growing again and by the end of that year people got used to cannibalism and it had become part of Wonkru's traditions/religion.

I got the sense that not many went to the pits before the Dark Year.  Abbie basically said the rate of people that died in the pits wouldn't sustain them but that society would basically collapse and the crime rate would rise once they implemented cannibalism and that should up the death rate enough to feed everyone.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm glad Madi pointed out the hypocrisy with Clarke. Yes Clarke, you really are no hero. She keeps telling Madi no, so obviously we're going to see her turn on her surrogate mother soon enough, and it's gonna be a betrayal for Clarke. That's what happens when you try to baby a teenager, especially one who is now a Commander. And honestly, I think I could easily be on Madi's side. 

That seemed more like Madi saying that Clarke had always been the hero but never got credit for it but isn't acting like a hero now.  I think they are getting too heavy handed with Madi is Clarke's person, Octavia cares only about Wonkru, and Bellamy puts Spacekru first because they each spent six years in that group.  its like they think it makes everyone on equal footing and all their actions understandable and forgivable.  I'm finding I have almost no one to root for.

[ottoDbusdriver]

At least we get confirmation that Madi has Lexa's memories.  Can't wait for that discussion once Clarke realizes what that includes.

Was there a sale on ice cube trays in the bunker ? Because all those human meat servings were perfect cubes. 

Better question, who was doing the cooking ?  Where was the sommelier to recommend the best pairing with human meat ?  No fava beans or a nice Cianti available ?
And what was the turnaround time from losing in the fighting pits to being served up with a lovely vegetable broth side dish ? Was it in fact 2 days like that one guy mentioned ?

Even better question -- who was on dishwashing duty ?  Because those trays, bowls and glasses were immaculate at each and every dinner sitting in the flashbacks.

Abby's rapid detox was duller than dirt -- it was just an excuse for the flashbacks.  By the way, I'm pretty sure that's not how you pump someone's stomach -- by just rashly jamming a plastic hose down your throat.  So does Abby have no gag reflex ?  Clarke more than likely would have filled Abby's lungs with saline. 

And then Clarke pulls a Pulp Fiction and jams the needle into Abby's chest to restart her heart -- right through her clothes, she didn't even draw a 'X' on her chest.

[shireenbamfatheon]

16 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

That seemed more like Madi saying that Clarke had always been the hero but never got credit for it but isn't acting like a hero now.  I think they are getting too heavy handed with Madi is Clarke's person, Octavia cares only about Wonkru, and Bellamy puts Spacekru first because they each spent six years in that group.  its like they think it makes everyone on equal footing and all their actions understandable and forgivable.  I'm finding I have almost no one to root for.

1

Which is such BS because Clarke constantly gets credit for her achievements, even if they're done on the backs of other people's work. She got credit for defeating Anya's army, Jasper and Monty literally used "what would Clarke do?" as a mantra in Mt. Weather to rebel against the MM, she got credit for Mt. Weather and was given the title Wanheda, Bellamy told her she'd saved the world because she pushed a lever while Raven broke her body and mind to do the actual work and saved her ass in the virtual world, and then there was everyone from Spacekru stressing how grateful they were for her saving their lives. If there's anyone who doesn't get credit it's Monty and Raven. 

I swear the way this show treats its characters of color is so ugly at times. Lexa is hailed as some revolutionary pacifist all of a sudden in a world where Lincoln existed, Octavia is constantly infantilized like she's not a twenty-something woman making her own choices, while she keeps physically and mentally abusing and manipulating her brother, and Clarke is the Underappreciated Savior of Humanity while Raven and Monty are relegated to sidekicks. 

[ketose]

They actually only ate human meat for one "dark year" while healthy plants were grown to replace the dying ones, at least from the story.

Those practically raw meat cubes were the most unappetizing way to present human flesh. One would hope after they got full compliance that it ended up getting cooked into a stew or something.

Supposedly, Octavia had to kill Wonkru non-eaters to get Kane to eat. For some reason, he's a leader now. Unfortunately, he may have decided to sell out Octavia because of that.

If Madi has all the memories of previous commanders, doesn't she have some of Clarke's memories as well. That could be awkward.

Also, the word in Trig for "pilot" is apparently "Maverick." I guess the love of Top Gun transcends the end of the world.

[Isazouzi]

Vincent or whatever his name is would have loved the Dark Year.

[UNOSEZ]

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I swear the way this show treats its characters of color is so ugly at times. Lexa is hailed as some revolutionary pacifist all of a sudden in a world where Lincoln existed, Octavia is constantly infantilized like she's not a twenty-something woman making her own choices, while she keeps physically and mentally abusing and manipulating her brother, and Clarke is the Underappreciated Savior of Humanity while Raven and Monty are relegated to sidekicks. 

Mannnnn..... I like the show.. Seen all the episodes... Other than the last two( I'm waiting for the season to end.. Then I'll binge cuz watching everyone hate Octavia is a bit of a drag) but I've consistently given this show the side eye after they killed Welles a noble... Capable and smart dude with some random little girl,  had his "best friend" try and protect that little (white)  girl and then forced us to endure the cliche not that was Finn.. With his rougish antics and heart of gold and other girlfriend who he cheated on like a week after getting to earth... Then they had Monty follow Jasper's self-indulgent ass damn near everywhere.. Turned Lincoln into the noble Savage who saves the super precious (white)  girl had anya as a powerful warrior and then decided we needed Lexa( tho I think dichen lachmann had to commit somewhere else so they had to scramble abd lexa was pretty awesome)  had Pike and Monty's mom be pretty one note ( seriously Monty had to kill his own mother and jasper was still bitching more than him)... They did all right with Jaha.. He had his ups and Downs but was pretty consistent and logical even if I didn't love all his moves... Miller has been ok... Gaia as well( maybe if seemingly every person she's followed wasn't a white woman it wouldnt feel so off)... Indra is basically a mammy to Octavia.. But her mannerisms are so robotic and focused that at least it's a diff spin on it... And Then.. There's Raven who... My God does the show like to punish ( she's the bonnie Bennett of this universe)  I'm scared because the show did something you rarely see on TV in general and the cw specifically... An interracial relationship that doesn't involve white folks.. But Shaw is a black dude and the pilot if the ship.. And Raven has never been happy for more than 47 seconds at a time so not looking good Shaw 

[Lady Calypso]

7 hours ago, ketose said:

They actually only ate human meat for one "dark year" while healthy plants were grown to replace the dying ones, at least from the story.

I hope that's the case, but the fact that they keep up with their cannibal mantra makes me pause and wonder "but what if they never stopped?" I think they likely stopped after the year, but there's always that "what if" now in the back of my mind until they say for sure. 

I think they also should have maybe had Octavia shoot Jaha in the head and not have him die 43 days into Praimfaya. I also think they should have had a much lower population than what they say, since they will never ever reference the 800+ people in theory. They should have had it down to 400, because at this rate, with all their 800 people marching to the Valley, they could take down everyone there in their sleep. Prisonkru is outnumbered by a lot. 

[Sakura12]

So we all guessed cannibalism from the beginning. They made us wait until the third to last episode to reveal it was cannibalism. Even with it being Abby's idea doesn't make it shocking. Shes a doctor she would know they need protein to survive. 

However what an unappealing way to serve it. We know they have fire at least cook it a bit. I was thinking they continued eating the meat help with disposing of the dead. Plus they still say their cannibal mantra when eating. 

Madi thinks that Octavia forcing her people to eat the dead that died because she decided they committed a crime is noble? I guess she forgot that O tried to murder her without even fighting her. 

I don't care about the 6 year relationships because I didn't see it. So who exactly are we supposed to be rooting for? They are all terrible people. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Sakura12

[UNOSEZ]

35 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't care about the 6 year relationships because I didn't see it. So who exactly are we supposed to be rooting for? They are all terrible people. 

I'm rooting for what I've always been rooting for... WAR. all this bs intrigue and backstabbing and hypocrisy from damn near everyone ( except maybe Raven)  wouldn't have needed to be.. If after prisonkru (did exactly what you'd expect a bunch of gun-wielding prisoners to do)  and betrayed Bellamy and Clarke.. If right then everyone just said.. Ok we'll just fight..  I woulda enjoyed this more.. Instead we get spacekru and Queen Clarke disgusted by what's happened to Wonkru.. We get them undermining Octavia from the jump we get Octavia trying to stamp them out.. We get Clarke and Bellamy fighting for a peace they have no earthly reason to expect is attainable and to that are willing to kill cooper and Octavia... This so far has been a disaster and made everyone ( cept Raven And maybe Indra)  look bad

So I choose war and a return to the show I loved next season.. After this nightmare is done

[Sakura12]

Clarke and Bellamy are not part of Octavia's cult. So they really have no loyalty to person she's become. They have no reason to listen to her, she is not their leader. She's also given them no reason to trust her. She's broken every deal she's made with them. All because she wants to stay on top. 

I'd say it's more Queen Octavia then Queen Clarke. Clarke's off doing her own thing without caring about ruling over anyone. They've all been betraying each other left and right for their new "families". I just get the impression that Clark cares about Madi and Bellamy cares about Spacekru. While I don't get the impression O really cares about her people as people. She only cares that they see her as the ruler of them all. 

[Paloma]

11 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Was there a sale on ice cube trays in the bunker ? Because all those human meat servings were perfect cubes. 

Better question, who was doing the cooking ?  Where was the sommelier to recommend the best pairing with human meat ?  No fava beans or a nice Cianti available ?
And what was the turnaround time from losing in the fighting pits to being served up with a lovely vegetable broth side dish ? Was it in fact 2 days like that one guy mentioned ?

Even better question -- who was on dishwashing duty ?  Because those trays, bowls and glasses were immaculate at each and every dinner sitting in the flashbacks.

I love these questions. And on a somewhat more serious note, where did they get all the water for this dishwashing and why wasn't there also a water shortage?

I'm also confused about the timelines of the fighting pits and how they were used. I remember in a previous episode that there was an argument between Grounders (or between Grounders and those from the Ark) over a stolen blanket. The one whom the blanket was stolen from wanted punishment, and Octavia initially said "Just give the blanket back" because she wanted to keep the peace. But I am blurry on the details of what happened after--did Indra or someone else say there had to be punishment to keep order, and did that lead directly to the establishment of the fighting pit? Also (and I don't think this was ever addressed in the show), what type of crimes did people get thrown in the pit for? I suspect it was not just for serious crimes like murder and treason, but being forced to fight to the death is immoral if for petty crimes. And did they even have trials, or was everyone who was accused just assumed guilty? What about children--were they thrown into the pit for typical childish misbehavior or even more serious misbehavior like hitting another child? Also, even if just adults were forced to fight, it was clearly an unfair system because some would be trained fighters while others would not be--and there would likely be big differences in physical size and strength.

So, in light of all this, if the "fights to the death" (or until Octavia decides if you should live or die) began early on, even before the Dark Year, then Octavia loses any remaining sympathy I might have had for her moral quandary.  Apparently (after the initial "Just give back the blanket") she refused to consider degrees of guilt and justice or any form of punishment other than fighting to the death.  

[jennblevins]

Congratulations, I guess, show — you did something that no other TV show has done since Millennium* in the 1990’s, you made me feel queasy based on visuals alone. 

Did they really only intend to grow only one source of plant protein the entire time they were in the bunker?  Shouldn’t they have had access to the same algae the space-based survivors did?

 

* Or possibly The X-Files; regardless, it was a close-up shot of someone eating an egg-salad sandwich with their mouth open. 

[marcee]

None of this makes any sense. Sure the people who choose to starve would starve slowly and it would be awful... but hell, maybe they'd last the year. And even if they didn't, "healthy" protein-eating people would still commit crimes, would still go into the pits and would still "give themselves for all". I don't understand why Abby insisted Octavia force them to eat (other than plot). And if Abby remembers the horror of watching her friends slowly starve, surely Kane remembers it too - and he's still choosing not to eat. Stupid stupid stupid. And the triple backstabs are getting old. Why, oh why, couldn't Octavia allow Wonkru to subsist on fungus? At least they're outside! They should be thrilled to be outside and have an unlimited (albeit tasteless) food option. I really like this show, but some of the plot stupidity just pulls me right out of the story. I wish Abby died.

The end.

[Nay]

I see a lot of people online whining about how the meat was raw cubes,  it damn sure looked like Aspic/meat jelly to me, which would be best way to get every bit of goodness/protein out of a single body. 

I loved Bell bring the sass and the swerve around Miller was pretty awesome.  

[hertolo]

That was dull, hope the finale will be better.

[Taryn74]

6 minutes ago, Nay said:

I see a lot of people online whining about how the meat was raw cubes,  it damn sure looked like Aspic/meat jelly to me, which would be best way to get every bit of goodness/protein out of a single body. 

Oh I bet you're right!  I remember thinking at first it looked mighty gelatinous, and it's not like they had blood dripping down their chins or anything when they'd take a bite.  It definitely didn't act like raw meat.

[xtwheeler]

How did the first guy Octavia shot have a brother? I thought Ms. UnderTheFloorboards was the only second child/sibling in her generation (and probably several before). He looked of a similar age. 

[Sakura12]

9 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

How did the first guy Octavia shot have a brother? I thought Ms. UnderTheFloorboards was the only second child/sibling in her generation (and probably several before). He looked of a similar age. 

I'm assuming that guy was a grounder from one of the clans. They could have as many kids as they wanted. 

[AudienceofOne]

Hey, Wonkru are cannibals. Nobody saw that coming!

This episode just made me bang my head against the wall. Instead of milking the season for this "shocking" "reveal" in episode 11, they should have had all of this in the first two. Forget the flashbacks that help us understand characters at the end of the season - show us who they are at the beginning of the season and then we won't spent 10 episodes eye-rolling them. This goes especially for Abby. Everything she said to Octavia in this episode was absolutely right. Her assessment was correct, her recommendations were right. That doesn't make it any less horrific and that's the point. We could have had 11 episodes where we can see the psychological impact these decisions have even when they're technically the right decisions. Instead it's been "Abby's a junkie now, isn't she terrible!"

Also, by spending some time on each of the three groups before they got back into each other's spheres would have stopped this:

10 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't care about the 6 year relationships because I didn't see it. So who exactly are we supposed to be rooting for? They are all terrible people. 

When Bellamy says "I'm trying to get back to my family", who does he mean? Oh, he means Spacekru. He may have had six years with these people and only a few months on the surface with the others. But we haven't. We've had four years of him with the others and two minutes with these new relationships.

8 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I cannot stand looking at Octavia any longer, though in this episode she at least got some material to play with and not just be a kid throwing a tantrum.

If they'd put this "reveal" in episode 2, I would have been much more forgiving of her behaviour. I still think she's a perpetual teen playing dictator but at least I'd understand why she was so determined to get to the valley and away from the horror of the bunker.

6 hours ago, jennblevins said:

Did they really only intend to grow only one source of plant protein the entire time they were in the bunker?  Shouldn’t they have had access to the same algae the space-based survivors did?

This is one of the few things this show has said that didn't bother me. They went into the bunker in a hurry. They had no time for serious planning. All their protein would have to be plant based and I doubt they had a lot of available protein crops on hand. I can't remember where they got the algae but I thought that either Monty took it with him to space or it was already there.

4 hours ago, marcee said:

None of this makes any sense. Sure the people who choose to starve would starve slowly and it would be awful... but hell, maybe they'd last the year. And even if they didn't, "healthy" protein-eating people would still commit crimes, would still go into the pits and would still "give themselves for all". I don't understand why Abby insisted Octavia force them to eat (other than plot).

This makes perfect sense to me and I agree with Abby. It's brutal and horrific but she was right. Watching their friends and families starve to death would be shockingly demoralising and by the end their bodies would be so emaciated and so degraded they couldn't be harvested. If they're choosing to die anyway, then they should die now so they can be eaten. Brutal but 100% right.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

However what an unappealing way to serve it. We know they have fire at least cook it a bit. I was thinking they continued eating the meat help with disposing of the dead. Plus they still say their cannibal mantra when eating. 

I think they kept eating the meat after the year too.  Not just the mantra but the anvils that led everyone to guess in the first place, like being upset that bodies were being left behind.  I've been assuming Bellamy was fed people when he poisoned Octavia because she said the mantra.  But then I started thinking that he should have been able to identify meat and wonder where it came from.

I do so want  Bellamy's finding out to have that dawning realization. 

BTW, why are they acting like six days of rations means you drop dead on day seven.  I guess its only Bellamy that is doing that.  But confirmation of the cannibalism does add a piece to the story.  Octavia burning they plants doesn't mean they start starving in six days.  It means that they restart the pit fights or start barbequing Prisonkru on day seven.  Octavia knows that six days of rations isn't six days before they begin starving.

I think a someone from Prisonkru roasting on a spit is going to be the thing that gets Clarke and Kane a pass from Spacekru on deciding to not pick Octavia's side .

I wonder if it was a happy accident or waiting for it to snow that ended up with the convenience of it being Winter in the Valley all of a sudden in the cannibal episode.  Can the Valley sustain hundreds of people in Winter or are they going to have to stick with the Dohner party stuff for a little while longer.

[ramble]

Fair warning - I’m an unabashed Octavia fan so if you hate her you probably want to skip ahead. 

Here’s something I’m surprised to say, I agree with Madi. Octavia took the cannibalism on herself, forcing others, so that the others would not feel as guilty. Kane’s self righteous blather makes me wish he’d been a meat cube so I’d never hear him again. I have been over Abby for a long time and her most recent whining hasn’t helped but I appreciated her owning up to her part in things. Bellamy’s six years in space apparently trump all the prior years and Octavia being his sister. His high moral superiority, when he’s never bothered to find out what happened in the bunker, makes me want to punch him in his pretty face. I find it annoying to hear people who are alive continuously complain about what Octavia did to keep them alive. And I still don’t give a flying fig about the new Kriminalkru (or whatever they call themselves.) 

Edited July 26, 2018 by ramble

[ketose]

15 hours ago, Paloma said:

I love these questions. And on a somewhat more serious note, where did they get all the water for this dishwashing and why wasn't there also a water shortage?

I'm also confused about the timelines of the fighting pits and how they were used. I remember in a previous episode that there was an argument between Grounders (or between Grounders and those from the Ark) over a stolen blanket. The one whom the blanket was stolen from wanted punishment, and Octavia initially said "Just give the blanket back" because she wanted to keep the peace. But I am blurry on the details of what happened after--did Indra or someone else say there had to be punishment to keep order, and did that lead directly to the establishment of the fighting pit? Also (and I don't think this was ever addressed in the show), what type of crimes did people get thrown in the pit for? I suspect it was not just for serious crimes like murder and treason, but being forced to fight to the death is immoral if for petty crimes. And did they even have trials, or was everyone who was accused just assumed guilty? What about children--were they thrown into the pit for typical childish misbehavior or even more serious misbehavior like hitting another child? Also, even if just adults were forced to fight, it was clearly an unfair system because some would be trained fighters while others would not be--and there would likely be big differences in physical size and strength.

So, in light of all this, if the "fights to the death" (or until Octavia decides if you should live or die) began early on, even before the Dark Year, then Octavia loses any remaining sympathy I might have had for her moral quandary.  Apparently (after the initial "Just give back the blanket") she refused to consider degrees of guilt and justice or any form of punishment other than fighting to the death.  

It was Jaha who explained that Octavia needed to act in the interest of the community. He told her point blank that he spaced Octavia's mother because what she did endangered the Arc. That's why Octavia decided that if you acted against the interests of Wonkru, you fought other criminals to the death. I assume if there were disputes, they were also "settled" in the pit.

 

10 hours ago, marcee said:

None of this makes any sense. Sure the people who choose to starve would starve slowly and it would be awful... but hell, maybe they'd last the year. And even if they didn't, "healthy" protein-eating people would still commit crimes, would still go into the pits and would still "give themselves for all". I don't understand why Abby insisted Octavia force them to eat (other than plot). And if Abby remembers the horror of watching her friends slowly starve, surely Kane remembers it too - and he's still choosing not to eat. Stupid stupid stupid. And the triple backstabs are getting old. Why, oh why, couldn't Octavia allow Wonkru to subsist on fungus? At least they're outside! They should be thrilled to be outside and have an unlimited (albeit tasteless) food option. I really like this show, but some of the plot stupidity just pulls me right out of the story. I wish Abby died.

The end.

Outside? They were trapped in there. They had to be dug out by the prisoners. Plus, that fungus was probably toxic.

I totally get the "full compliance" part. Except for maybe Vinson, if you were presented with a cube of human flesh, you wouldn't eat it. It would either be a moral issue or disgust. Either way, if Kane and other people chose not to eat, more people would eventually find themselves reaching a point where they couldn't commit to cannibalism every day. The worst part would be that one group would be morally superior, not being cannibals and the others would be viewed as immoral. Those who didn't eat who started starving would eventually get priority on what little plant protein was left and there would be two groups of people.

I think Abby and Octavia needed to do what they did. If you don't eat, you die. Kane could have taken a stand by shooting himself in the head, but he decided to be public about his new found moral superiority. Octavia simply accelerated the point that if you don't eat, you die. Except in her case, you don't die weeks later of horrible malnutrition, you die immediately because you are not Wonkru.

 

10 hours ago, Nay said:

I see a lot of people online whining about how the meat was raw cubes,  it damn sure looked like Aspic/meat jelly to me, which would be best way to get every bit of goodness/protein out of a single body. 

I loved Bell bring the sass and the swerve around Miller was pretty awesome.  

If it's meat jelly, you can still put it in a bowl and heat it up with some low-protein vegetables.

[SourK]

I feel like they're trying to sell the idea that Octavia is so determined to bring her people to the valley because it will retroactively make up for all their suffering, but I'd have an easier time going along with it if she hadn't also rejected several perfectly good solutions that don't involve a bunch of her own guys getting killed. Part of me is wondering if she wants them all to get killed in battle so that they can have warrior's deaths instead of wasting away from lack of food or something, but I don't know.

One thing that seems a little weird to me: I know the show has turned Kane into the Wise Man of Peace, and I'm fine with that. I've always liked him and I like the actor's performance. However. Back in season one, he was the guy who was all about making a hard sacrifice so "our people" could survive -- just as much as Abby if not more. I know he wants things to be better on the ground, but clearly they're not, so I'm a little bit... disbelieving, I guess, that all of his pragmatism has left him over the course of this show, even though I acknowledge that they have at least given him a consistent character arc.

On 7/24/2018 at 11:56 PM, ketose said:

Those practically raw meat cubes were the most unappetizing way to present human flesh. One would hope after they got full compliance that it ended up getting cooked into a stew or something.

 

I actually didn't find the food cubes that gross. I would kind of prefer them to look totally alien, because it makes it less like people. I think what's hard about this situation is not that they're eating people per se, but that these are people they know and would have had conversations with only the day before -- and, as someone mentioned above, there are people who are having to chop up the bodies and cook them, which is the worst possible job I can imagine. To me, that isn't conveyed super well -- it feels more like an abstract debate over cannibalism in principle which I think takes away from the horror and the moral dilemma.

On 7/24/2018 at 9:44 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Spacekru needs their own flashback episode. Maybe next season? I love each and every one of their dynamics. More of them for next season, please!

Me, too. Spacekru is, for me, the most interesting six year group, partly because we're able to see how close they've all become, and because it's knitting in some characters who seemed like they were on the margins before.

17 hours ago, Paloma said:

I'm also confused about the timelines of the fighting pits and how they were used.

The impression I got was that during year one a bunch of arguments broke out, including the blanket one, and Octavia started off being very reasonable about it. Then, when people tried to seize control of the food, she went on her Blood Queen "You are wonkru or you are an enemy of wonkru" killing spree and, from that point forward, the fighting pits were their justice system, and anyone who committed a crime against wonkru, no matter what it was, got tossed in the pit. (I also get the impression that Octavia was the law, so there wasn't really a trial -- it was just her personal judgement). So, the pits were there to maintain order, and then it just ended up being handy that there were a bunch of dead bodies.

At least, that's what I think happened. Not totally sure.

7 hours ago, ramble said:

Here’s something I’m surprised to say, I agree with Madi. Octavia took the cannibalism on herself, forcing others, so that the others would not feel as guilty.

I think this is an interesting argument, and it convinces me a little bit more than the other arguments offered in the episode. By "forcing" people to be cannibals, she carried the weight of that choice for them so they could feel like they're good people but still get to survive. The comparison to some of the stuff Clarke's done, I think, makes sense in that respect, especially as the show's tried to position Clarke's choices.

(FWIW, I was also inclined to think Octavia was right when she said when people got hungry enough they'd crack, and I think the show had Abby tell that story about how the people who refused to be cannibals on the Arc never recovered just to force the issue so Octavia had to do something right away, but fine.)

[Isazouzi]

9 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

This makes perfect sense to me and I agree with Abby. It's brutal and horrific but she was right. Watching their friends and families starve to death would be shockingly demoralising and by the end their bodies would be so emaciated and so degraded they couldn't be harvested. If they're choosing to die anyway, then they should die now so they can be eaten. Brutal but 100% right.

Totally agree with you.

9 hours ago, ramble said:

Here’s something I’m surprised to say, I agree with Madi. Octavia took the cannibalism on herself, forcing others, so that the others would not feel as guilty.

Exactly. Madi is right. Octavia took away Wonkru's choice, to take away their guilt as well. Deep down, Kane is right, you always have a choice, even if death is the only other option. But few people will see things that way with a gun to their head, which is why Wonkru will always be able to say that they had no choice, that Octavia forced them to eat human flesh.  She took away their burden. I find this incredibly noble, and totally what a good leader should do. Even if it totally broke her.

48 minutes ago, SourK said:

I feel like they're trying to sell the idea that Octavia is so determined to bring her people to the valley because it will retroactively make up for all their suffering, but I'd have an easier time going along with it if she hadn't also rejected several perfectly good solutions that don't involve a bunch of her own guys getting killed.

 

Now, the problem is indeed that she keeps taking away their choices, even when it's not necessary anymore. That's where I'm having a hard time following her too.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

19 hours ago, Paloma said:

I'm also confused about the timelines of the fighting pits and how they were used.

The impression I got was that during year one a bunch of arguments broke out, including the blanket one, and Octavia started off being very reasonable about it. Then, when people tried to seize control of the food, she went on her Blood Queen "You are wonkru or you are an enemy of wonkru" killing spree and, from that point forward, the fighting pits were their justice system, and anyone who committed a crime against wonkru, no matter what it was, got tossed in the pit. (I also get the impression that Octavia was the law, so there wasn't really a trial -- it was just her personal judgement). So, the pits were there to maintain order, and then it just ended up being handy that there were a bunch of dead bodies.

Thanks for the reminder about the attempt to seize control of the food and that leading to "You are wonkru or you are an enemy of wonkru" and the fighting pits. But that reminds me of another thing that bothered me about Octavia's killing people to force them to be cannibals. According to Octavia's definition, anyone sent to the fighting pits was an enemy and a criminal, yet when she was trying to convince people to eat their dead bodies she made these noble statements about not wanting their deaths to be in vain--as if they were warriors fighting for a good cause, or even just good people sacrificing themselves for the common good. To me that was the writers trying to make Octavia look better, and it didn't work because the only reason so many people were dead was her extreme version of justice.

[Sakura12]

I understand some of the choices Octavia had to make and I know they are not easy choices. However she then takes it further then she has too. The fighting pits were for punishment and to cull the population. The last one standing wins their freedom. Then we saw Kane win and Octavia change the rules because she didn't like the person that won. She decided Kane had to fight again. 

She's changing rules and taking away their choices when she doesn't have too. Because she wants to keep control. Again I will say they are all being stupid and selfish, it's just Clarke, Bellamy and even Indra are being selfish and stupid for the people they care about while Octavia is doing it for Octavia. She doesn't care how many people die as long she can rule over everyone. 

Monty said he could grow plants topside. If they wanted to get away from the bunker they could go anywhere they have a whole world to start growing plants. Once the plants are there the animals will show up too. It might be hard at first but they've all been through much worse. 

Mccreary is not that smart and isn't planning ahead. He has no farmers. So prisonkru will probably starve eventually when they destroy the land they have. While they could be farming somewhere far away and building a society. 

[marcee]

6 hours ago, ketose said:

Outside? They were trapped in there. They had to be dug out by the prisoners. Plus, that fungus was probably toxic.

I'm talking about after they were free. Monty figured out how to use his fungus to grow real food and Octavia burned it all to the ground. If you could excuse everything she did to survive down in the bunker all that time, I might be able to agree with you - but once she took away their choice to stay peacefully and eat the Monty-grown goodies or fight for the valley, she appeared much less redeemable, to me. At this point, everyone should be relieved just to be outside, out of the bunker. They could use the debris to rebuild and use the bunker-farm to sustain... and maybe trade with the valley people or eventually make peace with them. Instead, she burned it all to the ground because she wanted to get her way - even if her way destroys the valley and/or kills half her people. Selfish and stupid.

[shireenbamfatheon]

5 hours ago, SourK said:

I feel like they're trying to sell the idea that Octavia is so determined to bring her people to the valley because it will retroactively make up for all their suffering, but I'd have an easier time going along with it if she hadn't also rejected several perfectly good solutions that don't involve a bunch of her own guys getting killed.

 

Yeah, it seems taking the valley is the only hope Octavia has of justifying every bad thing she's done, which is why I hope she loses the war rather than for them to come up with a solution that has them peacefully co-existing. The problem with Octavia is that she has never owned up to her mistakes, and rather than to seek redemption or show remorse, she just moves on and pretends she never did something bad e.g. going from beating up her own brother, threatening to kill him multiple times, and putting Lincoln's death on him in season four, to their sibling moment at the end of that season, or killing innocent people as Skyrippa and then deciding she wanted to try her hand at a peaceful life with Ilyan, while looking down on Echo for being a murderer. Or her constant attempts at gaslighting Bellamy this season because he no longer bows down to her. Even the war for the valley is less about providing her people with a good life and more about her trying to hold on to her sanity. Octavia, like always, is in "ME, ME, ME" mode. Losing the valley would absolutely destroy her because she's only one tiny step away from a mental breakdown. She's Azula at the end of ATLA. I hope the showrunner can see past his love for the actress and have her character arc come to its logical conclusion.

On another note, Spacekru has the only post-six year relationships I buy. I love that they've been allowed smaller moments to show how close they've become e.g. like Murphy and Raven teasing each other, Monty telling Echo she's the only one who likes her algae, Emori comforting Echo, Bellamy and Monty's big brother-little brother relationship, Harper advising everyone etc. This show could just be about Spacekru and Kane + Diyoza going on adventures and I'd be ok with that. By contrast, I have no idea why Miller is more loyal to Octavia than anyone else. They never had a close relationship on the ground, but he had an entire arc where he collaborated with Kane in bringing down Pike. Why is he siding with a tyrant this time when he opposed another? And regarding Clarke and Madi, their relationship has been extremely dysfunctional in the present, with Clarke treating Madi not so much as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of better times. 

[Paloma]

17 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

On another note, Spacekru has the only post-six year relationships I buy. I love that they've been allowed smaller moments to show how close they've become e.g. like Murphy and Raven teasing each other, Monty telling Echo she's the only one who likes her algae, Emori comforting Echo, Bellamy and Monty's big brother-little brother relationship, Harper advising everyone etc.

I liked those moments also, as well as the radio conversation between Bellamy and Echo in grounder language (i.e., her language). I don't remember if Bellamy tried to learn that language at all before the 6-year period in space, but the fact that he seemed fairly fluent now indicated that he cared enough about her to learn the language--especially considering that she understood English before (at least to some extent) so it wasn't totally necessary for him to learn her language.

[Efzee]

Octavia seemed more normal in the flashbacks than she did the 43 days in (in the first or second ep of the season). Odd. Guess they really wanted us to sympathize with her, especially when her eyes filled up with tears and those stupid people of hers just wouldn't eat the human flesh...

Can't believe no one, not even Kane in his newfound wisdom, considered maybe just telling people the truth. How about explaining to them what would happen if they didn't eat (other than "you'll starve") and then, if they still refused, shoot them. I get why she didn't shoot Kane instead of WanKru; having him give in persuades the like minded and apparently lots of people suddenly respected him, but killing him would have made him a martyr. It's even possible the others would have followed suit if it hadn't been Kane but the person Octavia was aiming a gun at that had given in. As long as someone else of the refusers gave in first, then it would be easier for the rest to follow. Just like none of them thought of walking away despite their disgust, until Kane got up and went against Octavia when the suggestion was first made.

But if you want people to eat people, at the very least make it not look like they're actually eating cubes of people! How about making some thin slices rather than a hunk of meat or whatever it was supposed to be? Also, it looked like raw meat? That does not sound like a good idea.

I was disappointed with this episode but mostly with Abby's reveal. We all knew it was cannibalism during the dark year and I'd expected more for her to turn to addiction. Sure, she was already on the pills for her headaches, but the implication is that she wanted to numb herself because she was the driving force behind the cannibalism. I was expecting her to have been forced by Octavia (or, to make it juicier, Kane - which would have also explained why he was still with her when they were clearly opposed on the cannibalism) to slice and dice the dead bodies, as she would have the know-how of what would be safe to eat and what would be necessary to get their protein. And that we'd, you know, get to see that in a flashback. Wouldn't have to be gorier than the worms in the dead/living bodies from earlier eps.

Someone upthread wondered about reproduction/eating children/old people, but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen even one child. Or were there a couple training with Maddi? Anyway, nowhere near enough the numbers you'd expect when there's nothing to do but eat and sleep, because working out/fighting would require more sustenance.

[Sakura12]

Only the people from the Arc can't have children. So some should've been born to people from other kru's. Especially if there is not much else to do down there. 

There were some kids training with Madi but they all looked to be her age or older. I didn't see any that looked 5 or younger. They haven't mentioned if any kids were born in that time.

[Paloma]

30 minutes ago, Efzee said:

But if you want people to eat people, at the very least make it not look like they're actually eating cubes of people! How about making some thin slices rather than a hunk of meat or whatever it was supposed to be? Also, it looked like raw meat? That does not sound like a good idea.

I was disappointed with this episode but mostly with Abby's reveal. We all knew it was cannibalism during the dark year and I'd expected more for her to turn to addiction. Sure, she was already on the pills for her headaches, but the implication is that she wanted to numb herself because she was the driving force behind the cannibalism. I was expecting her to have been forced by Octavia (or, to make it juicier, Kane - which would have also explained why he was still with her when they were clearly opposed on the cannibalism) to slice and dice the dead bodies, as she would have the know-how of what would be safe to eat and what would be necessary to get their protein. And that we'd, you know, get to see that in a flashback. Wouldn't have to be gorier than the worms in the dead/living bodies from earlier eps.

Someone upthread wondered about reproduction/eating children/old people, but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen even one child. Or were there a couple training with Maddi? Anyway, nowhere near enough the numbers you'd expect when there's nothing to do but eat and sleep, because working out/fighting would require more sustenance.

I could probably eat thin slices, LOL, since I love tuna and salmon sashimi. Well, maybe only if I didn't know the source of the thin slices.

I agree, it would have been more compelling (and believable) if Abby had to participate in the preparation of the bodies.

I did see at least a couple of children in the dining room when the cannibalism began--probably elementary school age. But growing children would need a lot of balanced nutrition to survive or at least develop normally, so aside from the boy Jaha was taking care before he died, it seems unlikely more than a couple kids made it to the end. Assuming there were a few in the beginning and they died, either from malnutrition or in the pits (though I sure hope it wasn't the latter), were they eaten?

[Efzee]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Only the people from the Arc can't have children. So some should've been born to people from other kru's. Especially if there is not much else to do down there. 

There were some kids training with Madi but they all looked to be her age or older. I didn't see any that looked 5 or younger. They haven't mentioned if any kids were born in that time.

Has it ever been stated the people from the Ark are infertile? Or is that just an assumption because no one ever got pregnant? Because if so, the whole "we're the last of the human race"-argument that's been made several times this season makes no sense either.

[AudienceofOne]

3 minutes ago, Efzee said:

Has it ever been stated the people from the Ark are infertile? Or is that just an assumption because no one ever got pregnant? Because if so, the whole "we're the last of the human race"-argument that's been made several times this season makes no sense either.

We had quite a detailed conversation about this at the beginning of this season in terms of trying to quantify the bunker's population. It's never been stated, but we speculate all the Arkers have some kind of implanted birth control that can get removed when they want to have a child. Something like a futuristic Implanon. If they didn't, there'd be way more accidents than just Bellamy's mother. Contraceptive implants make the most sense.

[ketose]

7 hours ago, marcee said:

I'm talking about after they were free. Monty figured out how to use his fungus to grow real food and Octavia burned it all to the ground. If you could excuse everything she did to survive down in the bunker all that time, I might be able to agree with you - but once she took away their choice to stay peacefully and eat the Monty-grown goodies or fight for the valley, she appeared much less redeemable, to me. At this point, everyone should be relieved just to be outside, out of the bunker. They could use the debris to rebuild and use the bunker-farm to sustain... and maybe trade with the valley people or eventually make peace with them. Instead, she burned it all to the ground because she wanted to get her way - even if her way destroys the valley and/or kills half her people. Selfish and stupid.

I missed that when I read it earlier. The problem is that Octavia probably felt betrayed by the whole hydroponics thing. Monty even said it would be some time before the barren land looked like the valley. She felt entitled to the valley because her people suffered so much in the bunker. Even if she decided to take a chance on Monty's plan, McCreary might find the codes for the missiles and decide to blow Wonkru away for the hell of it anyway.

 

4 minutes ago, Efzee said:

Has it ever been stated the people from the Ark are infertile? Or is that just an assumption because no one ever got pregnant? Because if so, the whole "we're the last of the human race"-argument that's been made several times this season makes no sense either.

The people from the Arc may just have some long-lasting implanted birth control.

[thuganomics85]

So, The Dark Year reveal is finally here and.... yep, it is cannibalism.  Figured it was going in that direction.  Makes sense in a twisted, only option kind of way, but that might have been the most unappealing way they could do it with those cubes.  They really needed Hannibal Lector there to spice things up!

But, really, I guess the big thing was finding out that the reason Octavia is now the way she is is that some were refusing to eat (thanks to Kane), and she and Abby decided that it was up to them to force everyone to get in line by basically saying "If you don't eat, you're going to get shot!"  And then the show used this to say that Octavia did this to help her people by taking away any choice and they could live with knowing that they were forced to commit these acts.  I guess it makes sense and I do think it started out that way, but I still think the Octavia now has gone past all of that, and it's become less about her people and more about her.  Everything from changing the fighting pit rules just because she didn't like Kane to burning down Monty's algae farm, no longer shows a leader who is forced to make hard choices for the good of the people, but one who is doing what she can to stay on top.  We'll see how these final two episode play out and if I'll change my mind.

Clarke though, is just being an idiot.  She's clearly picked the losing side, but is so desperate to protect Abby and Madi, that she is throwing in with McCreary (even though he'd probably dispose of all of them, if he does win.)  Glad Madi called her out on that, although Madi herself isn't impressing me if her whole plan was just to start stabbing people.  No long-term thinkers here, I see.

Echo, Murphy, Raven, and Emori continue to be the best.

Either Diyoza and Kane just betrayed everyone or this is all going to be part of the plan.

The word "family" is getting dropped so much this season, that I'm waiting for Vin Diesel and the rest of the Fast & the Furious clan to show up and demand they quit stealing their act.

[Efzee]

13 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

We had quite a detailed conversation about this at the beginning of this season in terms of trying to quantify the bunker's population. It's never been stated, but we speculate all the Arkers have some kind of implanted birth control that can get removed when they want to have a child. Something like a futuristic Implanon. If they didn't, there'd be way more accidents than just Bellamy's mother. Contraceptive implants make the most sense.

 

13 hours ago, ketose said:

The people from the Arc may just have some long-lasting implanted birth control.

That's got to be some really advanced birth control then, considering the longest working (reversible/temporary) there currently is works up to 12 years. Assuming all girls get an implant upon reaching puberty, let's say 12 years old, then Clarke's should already be defective since we know she was a few days shy of her 18th birthday in the pilot and we just had a 6-year time jump and that's not counting the time spent on the ground in the first few seasons (a few months to a year, tops?). They better make sure Abby survives or none of the women's implants can be removed as she's the only actual doctor left... and I hope for the girls'/women's sake that nothing bad happens once those implants reach their expiration date but aren't removed.

Octavia is lucky she didn't get pregnant with Lincoln's or Ilian's (?) baby, seeing as how she wouldn't have been given an implant due to no one being aware of her until she was 16 or so and I doubt they decided to give her an implant right before locking her up.

[Paloma]

43 minutes ago, Efzee said:

That's got to be some really advanced birth control then,

This is just another (bad) example of pretty TV people being able to have sex without worry about b.c. or consequences of not using it. 

[shireenbamfatheon]

On 26/7/2018 at 5:21 PM, Paloma said:

I liked those moments also, as well as the radio conversation between Bellamy and Echo in grounder language (i.e., her language). I don't remember if Bellamy tried to learn that language at all before the 6-year period in space, but the fact that he seemed fairly fluent now indicated that he cared enough about her to learn the language--especially considering that she understood English before (at least to some extent) so it wasn't totally necessary for him to learn her language.

 

 

I loved that scene. I think I pressed rewind thrice just to see them interact in Trigesdasleng. When Echo and Bellamy first met in season two, I thought they had amazing chemistry, but when she betrayed him it soured me on her for a long time. So I'm surprised to see how much I love them as a couple this season. Once Echo's attached to someone, she becomes fully loyal, which Bellamy needs after Octavia and Clarke's constant betrayals, and Bellamy, despite becoming more level-headed this season, still operates a great deal with his heart, which helps balance out her pragmatism. They just seem like such a mature pairing compared to everyone else on the show. 

[Rabithed]

Am I the only one holding out for a Murphy/Raven love match?  I’ve never been a fan of Emori and I thought Murphy looked a bit put out watching Shaw joking with Raven. I like Shaw but I’m not sure how long he is going to last. 

The Clarke character has always annoyed me and this season isn’t helping to change that. Terrible storyline there. She’s just mumbling the same thing every episode. “Madi, Listen to me, this is very important,I’m doing this for you!” Madi, Listen to me, this is very inportant”, blah blah blah. 

[AudienceofOne]

32 minutes ago, Rabithed said:

Am I the only one holding out for a Murphy/Raven love match?  I’ve never been a fan of Emori and I thought Murphy looked a bit put out watching Shaw joking with Raven. I like Shaw but I’m not sure how long he is going to last. 

The Clarke character has always annoyed me and this season isn’t helping to change that. Terrible storyline there. She’s just mumbling the same thing every episode. “Madi, Listen to me, this is very important,I’m doing this for you!” Madi, Listen to me, this is very inportant”, blah blah blah. 

I used to like Clarke but they have no idea what to do with her this season. She's in some sort of narrative holding pattern. I've also never had much of a problem with her acting but she's terrible this season. I think that's because the actor doesn't know WTH her character is doing anything either. 

[Paloma]

32 minutes ago, Rabithed said:

Am I the only one holding out for a Murphy/Raven love match?

I hope not, because it would send the wrong message to have Raven fall in love with the guy who shot her and left her with lifelong pain. (Sort of like Octavia falling in love with the guy who kidnapped her and kept her tied up--though in that case I guess his intention was good, to save her?) However, I don't mind them developing a friendship, as long as what he did isn't forgotten.

[ketose]

I think Murphy has tried to kill almost everyone but Emori. His dating options are limited.

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, Rabithed said:

 I thought Murphy looked a bit put out watching Shaw joking with Raven.

I think he was reacting to Raven bringing up her limp/leg.  He still feels guilty over that.