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The Rewatch Topic: What We Missed the First Time Through, Now that We Know What We Know

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I waited for the series to finish and then started a rewatch. I’m only through three episodes so far but it’s definitely interesting to see stuff I overlooked the first time. 

Season 1 “you can’t just kill people” Cassie is kind of hilarious to see, knowing that she ends up rather frequently drilling holes in people’s heads with small arms ammunition.

I was surprised there were so many scientists in the Project Splinter think tank, there’s a good dozen of them. I only remember Adler and Lasky as the extra intellectuals. I guess the rest of them got killed off along the way.

1x02 - Mentally Divergent - Jennifer talks about being primary. Pallid Man gives her the trippy tea, she sees The Witness, though they don’t yet say who that is.

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Season 1 Cassie was so adorably naive. In 1.02 she even lectured Cole about not hitting any more cops when she picked him up at JD Peoples.

She was also a nicer person. I never really grasped why she became so passive agressive (to the point where it became annoying) in the second season.

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Ooh. Love this topic!  As you know, I’m on a re-rewatch lol. I’ll definitely have to keep track of things for here. So far, though, I can say that I also found it somewhat hilarious that Cassi is all “no kill” in the beginning and them in the last season she shoved that spear through a guys neck. 

As for season two Cassie- she was forced to go to the future where she didn’t belong and learn to survive there. And without Cole. I think it would harden anyone. She learned to cope with it eventually, thankfully! 

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I’m excited about this thread! I also started a rewatch but had to pause it because of a work conference. Can’t wait to get back to it!

I could understand Cassie’s reaction to being thrown into the future and having to survive. I could even understand to an extent why she took it out on Cole, though he did what had to be done. I just really didn’t like it or her much for a chunk of season 2. But that’s okay - I don’t always have to agree with the way a character behaves to still think the character is great. 

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I was thinking maybe I would like to re-watch this from the beginning, but realized I don't know how. Are there dvds that you have to buy? Neither Syfy channel, Comcast nor Netflix seem to have it available.

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1 minute ago, AngelKitty said:

I was thinking maybe I would like to re-watch this from the beginning, but realized I don't know how. Are there dvds that you have to buy? Neither Syfy channel, Comcast nor Netflix seem to have it available.

DVDs or Hulu streaming subscription. Amazon has it to stream too, but it's not part of the prime video package, you have to pay extra -- but it's still cheaper than buying the DVDs.

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Thank you for the info. I'll have to give it some thought since I'm really trying not to spend any more money on my viewing pleasure. 

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5 hours ago, AngelKitty said:

I was thinking maybe I would like to re-watch this from the beginning, but realized I don't know how. Are there dvds that you have to buy? Neither Syfy channel, Comcast nor Netflix seem to have it available.

Hulu has everything but the final season.

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In the episode "The Keys" when Cassie asks Cole what he thinks happens to him when its all over beyond his not existing, and he says "A better me in a better place," and he's thinking about the Keys. And then that's what happens. Starting literally in the Keys and then ultimately with Cassie at the house of cedar and pine [and in my mind later with a baby Athan and other children :)].

Though I would argue that the Cole even in season 1 was a good man.

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Cole as we knew him throughout the series was very much a person created by his circumstances. Cole when Jones found him was little more then a wild animal.

I'm glad the suicide mission tendencies wore off during season 1, though. 

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Doing my own re-watch now. I'm still curious about how the timeline changed from season 1 to season 2 and how the loop resets.

Anyway, I didn't realize that Olivia described herself as "a thing in a box" all the way back in season 1! And that Jennifer said "Climb the steps, ring the bell" too! And that Jones said she'd "take my last breath here (at the machine)." 

ETA - I've been commenting as I watched, hence the disjointed additions. All this takes place in episode 11 - Shonin

Edited by Jaded Sapphire · Reason: Mentioned the episode number

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16 minutes ago, Aliferously said:

Re watched the Cassandra Complex yesterday.

I found "The Cassandra Complex" an interesting episode in retrospect for how Cole lied about assassinating the Haitian doctor -- he knew Cassie would get worked up about him killing people. I wonder if he ever eventually confessed about that, because season 4 Cassie would not only have understood, she probably would've beaten him to pulling the trigger.

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1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

I found "The Cassandra Complex" an interesting episode in retrospect for how Cole lied about assassinating the Haitian doctor -- he knew Cassie would get worked up about him killing people. I wonder if he ever eventually confessed about that, because season 4 Cassie would not only have understood, she probably would've beaten him to pulling the trigger.

I think you're absolutely right about how Cassie would have dealt with Henri later in the series. 

And though Cold didn't confess to the killing, the Tall Man ratted him out in the Night Room, I think. 

Edited by bethy

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Man, that hug between Cole and Cassie in the CDC office in "Tomorrow." You could tell there was something deeper going on with Cassie in that scene even the first time you watched it--she says as much--but to know now that she'd been sent back to complete her cycle, loving Cole and believing/knowing that Cole would sacrifice himself to save them all? Ooph. 

Cassie has seen the very end of the story, and Cole is still at the very beginning of it. So good. 

Also, had she called Cole "James" up to that point in the first season? I feel like she hadn't.

Edited by bethy
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There are a lot of callbacks and echoes of phrases throughout the series. I think my favorite is when Athan's Splinter vest fritzes out at the beginning of S3 Ep 9 and he laments: "Well, that's unfortunate."

And in Part 1 of the finale, once Athan's vest finally stops working, Cole looks down in almost the exact same tone: "Well, that's unfortunate."

They both also echo one another in their words to Jennifer. It's fascinating watching a show where the writers actually remember what they wrote!

Edited by jmonique
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10 hours ago, bethy said:

Man, that hug between Cole and Cassie in the CDC office in "Tomorrow." You could tell there was something deeper going on with Cassie in that scene even the first time you watched it--she says as much--but to know now that she'd been sent back to complete her cycle, loving Cole and believing/knowing that Cole would sacrifice himself to save them all? Ooph. 

Cassie has seen the very end of the story, and Cole is still at the very beginning of it. So good. 

Also, had she called Cole "James" up to that point in the first season? I feel like she hadn't.

 

I think that’s the scene I am most looking forward to rewatching. That’s not only fantastic writing but amazing acting. Also, I noticed the more frequent usage of “James” in the finale, so that was deliberate as well. So, so good!

Life has gotten a bit in the way of my rewatch, but hopefully ‘ can squeeze a few episodes in throughout this week!

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I think she only uses his first name when she really wants to get through to him. 

Pretty sure everyday random conversation is always Cole, though.

Yes, Tall Man threw him under a bus about what happened to Henri. I think that's what caused the strife while they were trapped up there anyway. I can't remember the exact conversation either though.

Speaking of the Night Room, in the finale (as Olivia finally at long last perishes of hypothermia) there's dialogue referring to the skeleton as a she. I don't know if that was something new or I missed the reference the first five million times I've seen this episode. 

Edited by Aliferously · Reason: added Night Room question

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3 hours ago, Aliferously said:

I think she only uses his first name when she really wants to get through to him. 

Pretty sure everyday random conversation is always Cole, though.

Yes, Tall Man threw him under a bus about what happened to Henri. I think that's what caused the strife while they were trapped up there anyway. I can't remember the exact conversation either though.

Speaking of the Night Room, in the finale (as Olivia finally at long last perishes of hypothermia) there's dialogue referring to the skeleton as a she. I don't know if that was something new or I missed the reference the first five million times I've seen this episode. 

 

They definitely did not reveal the gender in the earlier episodes. 

 

ETA: just watched the scene in Tomorrow. Cassie said she thought Cole had been erased. Obviously, we all thought that meant erased because they had stopped the virus,   Ut she meant literally and fully erased. I also looked for a ring, and there wasn’t one. That doesn’t surprise me, but they really seemed to make a point to have her left finger very visible in that scene. 

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The Chechnya episodes are not my favourite season 1 moments (Because that's a really long way to travel to make sure she wouldn't find him there). There was no ring, I'm really sure.

Too bad the ring probably got lost in the foils of Time, though.

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1 hour ago, Aliferously said:

The Chechnya episodes are not my favourite season 1 moments (Because that's a really long way to travel to make sure she wouldn't find him there). There was no ring, I'm really sure.

Too bad the ring probably got lost in the foils of Time, though.

No.  No ring.  I looked.  She probably took it off and put it somewhere else since she had to finish her cycle and knew he hadn't proposed yet.  He would've noticed it and may have had rippling effects since he would want her to have a "full life" or, whatever she could before she died.  

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I had been in a holding pattern and unable to continue my rewatch. Lot of plot point first-mentions that I totally didn't notice the first time through. Watched Atari, Deacon mentions the Daughters!

Night Room: Boy, this episode really gave out a lot of information. Most didn't make sense at the time, but a lot of it adds up. We got some of Jones's backstory: marriage, baby blanket with Hannah's name on it, her failed pre-Cole time travel subjects. First mention of The Witness by Pallid Man, referred to as a "him" -- PM doesn't know it's Olivia. That ended up being news to a lot of people. And obviously, the source of the plague, Olivia's desiccated corpse. Pallid Man also makes mention of a snake eating its own tail.

You all were right, Pallid Man rats Cole out to Cassie about Henri. I'm pretty sure she got over being mad about it. Hilariously, Pallid Man tries the tactic with Jennifer, telling her that Cole killed her father, but it backfired as she only laughed maniacally about it and thinks it's awesome.

Jennifer first meeting Cassie was hilarious, "Quick question: who's THIS bitch?" Interesting bit of foreshadowing when Jennifer was ranting about not liking doctors, "Always saying my name, 'Jennifer, Jennifer,' but never specifying WHICH ONE." And Cassie's quiet little, "Wow."

Also interesting talk between Cassie and Cole about how she doesn't like how her life is surrounded by death now, she just wants to heal people and doesn't want to be like him.

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The Red Forest: Hey, it's Ari Millen from Orphan Black as the whistle blower guy! And look, there's Olivia! Doing the first of her many, many, MANY Red Forest hypnosis monologues. I remember being super-uninterested in her as a character in the first couple of seasons but now I find her fascinating.

The Keys: It's mentioned during the Operation Troy briefing that Olivia's corpse was excavated in the Himalayas in the '80s.

Yesterday: Oh no, here we are with Elena and Sam (my son!). I wasn't interested in this plot the first time, still not. But we get more Jones backstory with Spearhead. Colonel Foster mentions her dead daughter, kind of twisting the knife a bit, so to speak. 

Tomorrow: Hell yeah, this episode. Cassie and Jennifer after they've been returned to where they started. They know everything already but have to keep quiet. Well, Cassie does, anyway. Jennifer stands outside the quarantine area, raving like a lunatic (about Daughters!). I love that when Cole starts babbling about Chechnya, Cassie's all, "That feels like a million years ago." I forgot Laskey got popped in this episode when they raided Spearhead for the core. He shows back up in season 2 when they reset the timeline.

Divine Move: We get our first look at the Daughters, led by Old Jennifer. She tells Ramse that he's a good friend, "Not yet, but you will be." The Messengers are first mentioned here.

Shonin: Olivia gets a name, finally. Until now, she had just been "Striking Woman." Seeing her happyish and smiling in this episode is kind of freaky. Lot of stuff in here that later episodes call back to: Olivia says that her father had big plans for her, that she was "a thing in a box." Jennifer gets hauled into Olivia's house in Virginia, ranting, "climb the steps, ring the bell." Looks like Olivia purposely planted the Daughters idea in Jennifer's head, telling her she can be a daughter again.

Paradox: Boy, this was a good one. 2015 Jones, pregnant with Hannah, Cole's mother, contemplating abortion, but changes her mind when she meets the big and little Coles? The episode's title isn't just about Cole interacting with his younger self anymore. Not to mention Matthew having heard of the Army of the 12 Monkeys because Marion/Hannah was afraid of them.

Arms of Mine: Here come The Messengers. Infants in 2015, Olivia stands in a room full of 12 babies, one of which is her mother. This happens a lot on this show.

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6 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Not to mention Matthew having heard of the Army of the 12 Monkeys because Marion/Hannah was afraid of them.

And Matthew says that Hannah left James with him because she couldn't protect him. Then she dies in James's arms saying the only thing she could do was protect him one last time. Gah.

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On 7/19/2018 at 12:21 AM, kariyaki said:

Divine Move: We get our first look at the Daughters, led by Old Jennifer. She tells Ramse that he's a good friend, "Not yet, but you will be." The Messengers are first mentioned here.

I've been thinking about that line a bunch since Season 2 resets a bunch of stuff and there's a big deal about Ramse being dead originally. I think the line works on 2 levels. If Ramse had died when he was 'supposed' to, his last act would have been to help Cole save Cassie, hence being a good friend. It also works with what the timeline is changed to where his last act is to help Cole save the world by taking Titan.

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Did we ever find out why the plants turned red in the bar in the episode after Cole came back from Chechnya ("Tomorrow," I think) and in the asylum when they were they were trying to save Tommy Crawford from being paradoxed in "One Hundred Years"? I'm assuming because Athan showed up there, right, because they do that around the Witness? But I don't remember a definitive answer. 

Also, everytime I start a season 2 rewatch I think about poor Cassie and the shock that she went through getting thrown into 2043 coming on the heels of seeing Aaron die , and I start with a lot of sympathy for her and then she opens her mouth, and I’m all: 

giphy.gif

Edited by bethy
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Plants turn red when near the effects of a time machine or paradox event.

I'm on season 2, I forgot how much rage was going through Cassie for most of it. Wow.

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I like that in episode two Jennifer uses the word Primary.  Hee!

Also, the episode where they are in Haiti, iI forgot how dark it was.    Hoping to get a few more episodes in this weekend., because it’s not the show you can watch while folding laundry or  checking email.

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So, late to the party on this one, but I just finished watching the series and knew that it deserved an immediate re-watch now that I know how it all plays out.  It's obviously one of the most brilliantly realised (no, I correct myself, THE most brilliantly realised) time travel stories ever told on television.

I just re-watched "Tomorrow," from Season 1, and oh-my-God, the Cassie who dies in Cole's arms at the CDC is the Cassie that got sent back in the finale!  She has the grey streak in her hair.  So she has lived the entire series, and knows about her transition to 2043, and Athan, and finding out that Cole is the demon.  And she already proclaimed that, "I have murdered 7 billion people, and I won't make it 7 billion and 1." And then she did what needed to be done, and accepted that he had to eliminate himself from existence, and she went back to her timeline.  And then she saw James for what she thinks is the last time ever, and he didn't know any of this and she couldn't tell him.  

But she does say "I don't want to be alone when I . . . "  And Cole thinks she means that she doesn't want to die alone.  But I think she meant that she doesn't want to be alone when he erases himself and the timeline resets.  

I'm still crying now, like, 10 minutes later, because it's all so sad and satisfying.  Wow.  I wonder what they told the actors before they filmed that scene, because it played out perfectly.

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Yeah can feel the intimacy when Cassie call him James. The only problem with the scene is how the scene works now that Cassie unleashes the virus in 2018 and it's 2017, and also the bit about the red forest part.

 

Also is great to see how incredulous Cassie is at the thought of killing billions to save one person, and I think Aaron knew that deep down Cassie didn't truly love him. Contrast that with S4 Cassie who is constantly tempted by the red forest, and seriously considers living with Cole in a doomed world instead of resetting time.

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7 billion for One...just watched it get mentioned (for the first time) in the season one finale.  

And based on the opening of These Arms of Mine...are we sure Cole/Cassidy weren't already romantically involved by then?  Because I'm starting to think they were hooking up by the end of season one.

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They certainly have feeling towards each at this point and might be in love with each, but the season 2 timeloop episode Cassie makes it clear why she can't be be with Cole because she can't deal with losing him if they succeed in their mission. She only goes all in when she believe that they're safe in 1959.

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'Kay, so here's a thought.

I just re-watched "Brothers" from Season Three, where Cole kills Ramse, and then read some comments about it that people made when it first aired.  And it caused me to think again about Cole-Ramse and Ramse-Sam.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Sam is about the same age when Ramse first finds him as Cole is when Ramse first takes on the role of his big brother.  And I also don't think it's a coincidence that they look alike (in fact, when Ramse says goodbye to adult Sam, the first time I watched the scene, I was distracted by how similar adult Sam looked to Cole; I was wondering if it was really Aaron Stanford under those bandages).

Someone pointed out how, when Ramse is saying goodbye to Sam, he says "you're the only thing in my life I don't hate myself for," and what does this have to say about his relationship with his "brother."  Well, we know that Cole at the beginning of the show is absolutely oozing self-hatred and recrimination for the things he's had to do to survive.  So much so that he willingly throws himself into what he believes is a suicide mission, with the vague hope that he can make his past transgressions go away.  And Ramse, as the older brother who basically raised him from age six, and helped make him what he is, has to know that.

So I'm wondering if Ramse's somewhat fanatical devotion to Sam is an attempt, maybe subconsciously, to atone for the mistakes he made with Cole.  People are always ragging on Ramse about how he's willing to sacrifice the world for a son he's known for a few days.  In a way, it makes more sense if he sees Sam as a chance to atone for what he thinks he did to Cole.  A chance to save his "brother" from becoming the self-loathing, suicidal asshole he seems to be, thanks to Ramse's influence.

Somehow, in Ramse's mind (conscious or sub-conscious), Cole and Sam are the same person, and Sam is his do-over.

Just a thought.  

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2 hours ago, MostlyC said:

I didn't remember Deacon and Cassie being so obviously close.  What a smack in the face for Cole.

It was really one-sided closeness, as Cassie was way less into Deacon than he was into her.

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'Kay, another random thought, that I might be turning into a hypothesis.

Just re-watched the Season Three episode, either "Nature" or "Nurture," where Cole is pointing a gun at his son and can't pull the trigger.  And his son is played by the same actor who played little James in the first season.   Again, I'm not sure it's a coincidence.

Maybe, the whole series is about saving Cole.  Time knows that, in order to be fixed, Cole needs to be erased.  But Time likes Cole the way he is (throwback to "Lullaby" -- "Time likes Jones the way she is.")  So Time is trying to figure out a way to fix itself, and still keep Cole.

I'm gonna keep this theory in mind as I re-watch the rest of the series.

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On 8/1/2018 at 7:55 PM, MostlyC said:

7 billion for One...just watched it get mentioned (for the first time) in the season one finale.  

And based on the opening of These Arms of Mine...are we sure Cole/Cassidy weren't already romantically involved by then?  Because I'm starting to think they were hooking up by the end of season one.

I don't think Cole and Cassie were hooking up. In season 2 when Deacon says he knew his days with Cassie were over when Cole got back, Cole says, "It was never like that." I think they were in love with each other, but that they weren't having sex. 

22 hours ago, mtmjr said:

'Kay, so here's a thought.

I just re-watched "Brothers" from Season Three, where Cole kills Ramse, and then read some comments about it that people made when it first aired.  And it caused me to think again about Cole-Ramse and Ramse-Sam.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Sam is about the same age when Ramse first finds him as Cole is when Ramse first takes on the role of his big brother.  And I also don't think it's a coincidence that they look alike (in fact, when Ramse says goodbye to adult Sam, the first time I watched the scene, I was distracted by how similar adult Sam looked to Cole; I was wondering if it was really Aaron Stanford under those bandages).

Someone pointed out how, when Ramse is saying goodbye to Sam, he says "you're the only thing in my life I don't hate myself for," and what does this have to say about his relationship with his "brother."  Well, we know that Cole at the beginning of the show is absolutely oozing self-hatred and recrimination for the things he's had to do to survive.  So much so that he willingly throws himself into what he believes is a suicide mission, with the vague hope that he can make his past transgressions go away.  And Ramse, as the older brother who basically raised him from age six, and helped make him what he is, has to know that.

So I'm wondering if Ramse's somewhat fanatical devotion to Sam is an attempt, maybe subconsciously, to atone for the mistakes he made with Cole.  People are always ragging on Ramse about how he's willing to sacrifice the world for a son he's known for a few days.  In a way, it makes more sense if he sees Sam as a chance to atone for what he thinks he did to Cole.  A chance to save his "brother" from becoming the self-loathing, suicidal asshole he seems to be, thanks to Ramse's influence.

Somehow, in Ramse's mind (conscious or sub-conscious), Cole and Sam are the same person, and Sam is his do-over.

Just a thought.  

I think this is really interesting. Ramse told Cole he was turning them in - when Cole tried to break them out of the facility after Jones found them initially - to save Cole's soul. I do think Ramse felt some guilt and responsibility about the way Cole turned out pre-Jones. Sam as a do-over for Cole makes a kind of sense to me. Though it's too bad Ramse's do-over would have involved not saving the world. :)

20 hours ago, kariyaki said:

It was really one-sided closeness, as Cassie was way less into Deacon than he was into her.

It may have been one-sided romantically, but I think she felt a connection to Deacon because of the way he helped her when she first got to 2043. To me it was a kind of brothers-in-arms, boot-camp-survivor closeness. She'd been through a LOT with him and knew she could trust him with her life. 

Edited by bethy · Reason: Vague pronoun reference

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9 minutes ago, bethy said:

I don't think they were hooking up. In season 2 when Deacon says he knew his days with Cassie were over when Cole got back, Cole says, "It was never like that." I think they were in love with each other, but that they weren't having sex.

Not regularly, but Deacon and Cassie did sleep together once. It came up during the scene where he was telling her how he had a crush on her as a kid when he saw her on TV all the time.

Quote

Deacon: So I just wanted to say... that I, um... that, uh... you mean a lot...
Cassie: Deacon. Stop. It was just one night.
Deacon: You came to me.
Cassie: Because we were trapped out there, surrounded by scavs. My respirator had a hole in it, and--
Deacon: Oh.
Cassie: Look, that part of me is long gone. It has to be. That's the only way I can do this.
Deacon: Got it. I will say this: you finally fit in around this place.

ETA: And I just realized you meant Cole and Cassie which-- yeah, I agree, they didn't do it until they were stuck in the '50s and he knocked her up.

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13 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

ETA: And I just realized you meant Cole and Cassie which-- yeah, I agree, they didn't do it until they were stuck in the '50s and he knocked her up.

I've edited my post to make my pronoun usage clearer. :)

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On 8/16/2018 at 3:34 AM, wanderingnettle said:

Talking of rewatching  - If anyone is looking to buy the Blu-rays there's more detail (as much as we know so far) about them here:

https://projectsplinter.com/2018/08/13/12-monkeys-season-3-and-4-blu-ray-details/

I've pre-ordered season 4 and bought season 1.  I'll get 2 and 3 as soon as I can.  I would be rewatching all of them again now, but there's actually a lot of streaming things on Netflix and Hulu that I'm watching.  But, I love reading everyone's comments so I hope others continue to rewatch and comment!

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In the pilot Cole mentioned that Cassie was a oldest child so that would implied that Cassie had siblings so it's kind of weird that Cassie was totally okay with never seeing them again in 1959, and also leaving them dead in the plague.

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I know that they never hark back to that (other then meeting her mom), but I wonder about that too. 

It seemed very much like a divorced single mother situation, really. 

Maybe they were half or step siblings and she's wasn't close to them to begin with.

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Just watched season 1 "Divine Move" where Ramse talks to old Jennifer in 2043.  She says to him that they have to undo everything they've done, undo everything Cole's done!  It was RIGHT THERE!!!

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Rewatching season 2, some of it doesn't really make a lot of sense, especially in the grand scheme of things.  In "Lullaby" when they go back to 2020 to kill Jones, they keep experiencing a Groundhog Day like event, and can't break the cycle until they save Hannah without Jones knowing.  In a way, given who Hannah is, it makes sense they have to save her, but Jennifer says something like "Maybe Time LIKES time travel!" which we know isn't the case.  I wish they had found a different way to save Hannah without it seeming like Time itself has an agenda.  Season 2 (from my recollection) is the only season that gives Time an agenda like this.  I'm also not a fan of the finale "Memory of Tomorrow."  Cole using the tea to transport his conscience back to the past makes no sense, especially since no one ever does this ever again (except the Witness, but she's using the splinter radiation or something to do it and she can project her conscience into anyone, not just herself).  And related to that, in "Meltdown" the Witness takes control of Cassie to sabotage the Machine, but for what purpose?  Just so that Olivia would end up raising Sam so she can get to Ramse later??  And what was the whole point of the Messengers??  If Titan can destroy time itself, paradoxing Primaries wasn't necessary, or was it all a rouse to send back Olivia mother?  Or is Titan a backup plan?

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