S04.E08: Episode 8

[ComeWhatMay]

2 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

[Ross] has always struck me as the inconsistent one who wanted the best of both worlds - Demelza and Elizabeth.  And it was his arrogance and selfishness that led to Valentine's conception and Elizabeth's eventual death, some six years later.  To me, Ross was the wishywashy one.  To me, he is a patronizing, slightly bigoted and over-privileged rapist.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes. What would Ross have said to Valentine and George at Elizabeth's grave that George would wish to hear? Does he have designs on making some claim on Valentine now? Glad Demelza stopped him. Time and place applies to him too. George and Elizabeth were lovely during their brief time together with Ursula.

[taanja]

10 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I loved when Ross asked George, “You have everything.  What more do you want?”  Because George is an addict, his addiction is More.  He will never be satisfied because all he wants is more, more, more.  Yuk.

He's got a great big hole right through the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, ComeWhatMay said:

What would Ross have said to Valentine and George at Elizabeth's grave that George would wish to hear? Does he have designs on making some claim on Valentine now? Glad Demelza stopped him. Time and place applies to him too.

Ross is bad about not thinking beyond what feels right to Ross in the moment.  Like when he wanted to sit in attendance at Adderley's bedside even knowing it would have likely meant arrest or worse for both of them had anyone definitively been able to place them together, Ross isn't seeing that his presence at Elizabeth's grave or being where anyone might do a quick compare and contrast of Ross and Valentine is only likely to rile George again.  Legally, Ross has no claim to Valentine and never will.  George and Elizabeth were married at the time of Valentine's birth, so under English law he's George's son in every way that matters in their world.  Even if Ross wanted to pull a George and print up handbills gossiping that he fathered Valentine, that wouldn't change.  The best thing he can do for the foreseeable future is stay away from both of them.  So Ross being Ross of course it takes Demelza to point that out.

[TigerLynx]

Elizabeth would have been considered a "catch" and was probably a toast her debutante season in London.  She was beautiful, from a good family, knew how to behave, etc.  It's not surprising she had more than one suiter.

I wanted to smack Geoffrey Charles for his "She wasn't a Warleggan.  She was a Poldark."  Me, "No you dolt.  She was a Chenoweth.  She married a Poldark and a Warleggan."  Elizabeth left two young children behind who are Warleggans.  Does Geoffrey Charles give damn about his brother and sister?  He seemed awfully happy discussing how his dead mother was a Poldark.

I really like the idea of Demezla taking Ross to a taxidermist.  He should be seen, and not heard.

[BookThief]

21 hours ago, TiredMe said:

I thought I was watching a rerun in the beginning when I saw Francs and Agatha. I actually picked up my remote and pressed info. Lol

I know! I was sure I was watching a new episode, but I rewound a few times to see if I had missed an obvious "X years earlier" screen at the beginning.

What was with the weird look Drake gave Morwenna right after their wedding (when she went to kiss him)?

[Ohwell]

13 minutes ago, BookThief said:

What was with the weird look Drake gave Morwenna right after their wedding (when she went to kiss him)?

I think he was surprised that she kissed him, given that she had previously indicated that she didn't want any physical involvement--ok, sex--as a result of being married to and abused by that pig of a husband.   Drake just wanted her to be his wife even without having sex, and I think after that kiss he realized that she does, in fact, want to be a wife in every way.   It still might take a while for her to fully recover from what she's been through, but that's what I took away from that scene.  

[Neurochick]

Drake was shocked Morwenna kissed him, after all she told him that carnal love disgusted her, because of the monster she was married to.

[Neurochick]

10 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I will miss Elizabeth and what she represents.  Too often the main female characters in historical dramas end up being "not like other girls" like Demelza.  They display character traits that mark them as more modern for the times in an often misguided attempt for modern viewers/readers to relate.  Elizabeth was a traditional female of her time and I was fascinated by how she went about trying to make a life for herself and her children by staying in the confines of her role.    Elizabeth did the best that she could as a poor lady of good breeding.  She had to sacrifice love for security, but she did try to make both of her marriages work when she did not have to.  Most marriages of the time in their class were business arrangements.  Many couples led separate lives usually after the wife produced the heir.  The Warleggans owned (or were entrusted with) enough homes that Elizabeth could have lived away from George.  But, she chose to try to be a good wife to George, a man she married out of necessity.  

I don’t get what’s so great about Elizabeth being a traditional female of her time, at a time where women had no rights.  That’s akin to watching a movie about slavery, where the slave just lets the master beat them.  

[BookThief]

7 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I think he was surprised that she kissed him, given that she had previously indicated that she didn't want any physical involvement--ok, sex--as a result of being married to and abused by that pig of a husband.   Drake just wanted her to be his wife even without having sex, and I think after that kiss he realized that she does, in fact, want to be a wife in every way.   It still might take a while for her to fully recover from what she's been through, but that's what I took away from that scene.  

 

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Drake was shocked Morwenna kissed him, after all she told him that carnal love disgusted her, because of the monster she was married to.

That's what my initial reaction was, but then he seemed disappointed and not surprised. Maybe it was just a poor acting choice or came out different than he expected.

[Ohwell]

6 minutes ago, BookThief said:

That's what my initial reaction was, but then he seemed disappointed and not surprised. Maybe it was just a poor acting choice or came out different than he expected.

Maybe poor acting, but I think he was surprised that she kissed him.  There was nothing for him to be disappointed about because they had just gotten married, which is what he wanted.  

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ohwell

[MissL]

I was wondering if anyone else caught the moment when George let Ross go see Elizabeth and he said something like "yes, yes go see what we have brought her to."  For a second I thought he'd somehow now figured out that she did something to herself in order to have the baby early.   But now I don't know because I don't think he'd let Valentine hold his hand if he still thought he was Ross' kid.  He did say something about how their daughter looks nothing like her mother so..the dads looks come out on top with Elizabeth? I don't know.  Maybe he just thought she got upset and went into labor early  because of their fight.

[Moxie Cat]

20 hours ago, voiceover said:

There's a lot of costume trivia on IMDb about the dresses used in Austen (& other period) dramas being redone and swapped around. Morwenna's wedding dress, jacket, & bonnet pinged something -- it's niggling, but I'm sure I've seen it on another actress, in another story.

It looked like it fell right out of the 1995 Colin Firth "Pride and Prejudice."

19 hours ago, Hyla said:

I don't know why, but I find Morwenna and Drake very endearing and am glad they found happiness. (Though it did seem a bit soon after Elizabeth's death).

The problem was that the foliage around the church was very green and everyone was wearing spring/summery clothes. That scene would actually make sense, then, if the wedding was supposed to be a few months after Elizabeth's death (November/December) - then it wouldn't have seemed soon. But a large point was made during this episode of getting Drake and Morwenna married as quickly as possible - so why would they have waited 4-5 months?

Thank GOD Morwenna and Drake are finally married. I am so tired of that storyline. The chase through the woods: WTF? Is that in the books? Like these guys would really have let dogs kill or maim the recent widow of a local reverend? Or any woman? Seriously. 

More Caroline and Dwight, please....I never get tired of them. Dwight is the unsung hero of this show. It could be called "Enys" instead of "Poldark," as far as I'm concerned.

Not. Enough. Verity. One opening scene and a line at the end does not cut it.

And George. Jack Farthing was absolutely the standout in the episode. As horrible as George is, he has managed to make me see, every so often, how damaged and insecure George really is. Complex characters are always more interesting. 

And one final note: I don't care how old Garrick and Horace are, or that after 20 years it doesn't make any sense that these dogs are still running around. I hope they are immortal.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Moxie Cat

[Mrs Shibbles]

I must have missed who fathered Ursula earlier in the season.  I know Elizabeth wanted to secure her marriage and future for Valentine, but I didn’t realize George was not Ursula’s father.   Was Ross the father again??

[Moxie Cat]

George was Ursula's father....why do you think he wasn't?

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

I must have missed who fathered Ursula earlier in the season.  I know Elizabeth wanted to secure her marriage and future for Valentine, but I didn’t realize George was not Ursula’s father.   Was Ross the father again??

No there was a short scene where Elizabeth was starting to undress George in their bedroom in one of the episodes this season.  

[Hyla]

41 minutes ago, MissL said:

I was wondering if anyone else caught the moment when George let Ross go see Elizabeth and he said something like "yes, yes go see what we have brought her to."  For a second I thought he'd somehow now figured out that she did something to herself in order to have the baby early.   But now I don't know because I don't think he'd let Valentine hold his hand if he still thought he was Ross' kid.  He did say something about how their daughter looks nothing like her mother so..the dads looks come out on top with Elizabeth? I don't know.  Maybe he just thought she got upset and went into labor early  because of their fight.

I was wondering about that too. It was after Dr. Enys found the bottle, so I thought he must have told George what had happened.

But, I think you're right that he may have been blaming the feud between himself and Ross for contributing to her plight.

(Of course, as others have said above, it was his nasty behavior towards and withdrawal from Valentine that were causing the most stress on their marriage. Would a better man than George (pretty much anyone since he is among the worst of the worst) have been able to maintain a happy family in that era if his suspicians had been confirmed? Would Elizabeth have had to go to equal lengths to protect Valentine from Ross if the situation had been reversed?)

I love how Elizabeth was at least able to buy harmony between George and her two younger children. The scene where Valentine took his father's hand and then when they were standing together by the grave implied they would be close in their shared grief and memories for a time. And of course George will dote on little Ursula.

Without Elizabeth to reign him in any longer, George is going to be very dangerous indeed in both large and extremely petty ways.

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I wanted to smack Geoffrey Charles for his "She wasn't a Warleggan.  She was a Poldark."  Me, "No you dolt.  She was a Chenoweth.  She married a Poldark and a Warleggan."  Elizabeth left two young children behind who are Warleggans.  Does Geoffrey Charles give damn about his brother and sister?  He seemed awfully happy discussing how his dead mother was a Poldark.

I thought it was strange he wasn't at his mother's graveside with George and Valentine.

Naming Elizabeth a Poldark I think was meant to be the ultimate compliment by Verity - that she was all that was grand and good and noble in their opinion. Though, I agree it doesn't make much sense

[screenaddict]

Ross and Demelza have driven me nuts this season. Every time they'd get it together, one of them would have to try to spoil things. Let's bring up Hugh! Let's keep the flowers that slimy Monk Adderley sent! Let's do everything in our power to take two steps back for every step forward in the marriage.

And yet, my stone cold little heart was touched at the end. I want them to be happy.

Dwight and Caroline need a spinoff series.

[dubbel zout]

15 minutes ago, Hyla said:

I thought it was strange he wasn't at his mother's graveside with George and Valentine.

Geoffrey Charles and George have never been on the greatest terms; I can see why GC stayed away.

[Magnumfangirl]

In the dog chase scene, Harry Harry says something like "we'll get you, you Methody!"  So I thought he was actually chasing Drake or Sam because Morwenna isn't Methodist.  

[Zella]

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

 

I wanted to smack Geoffrey Charles for his "She wasn't a Warleggan.  She was a Poldark."  Me, "No you dolt.  She was a Chenoweth.  She married a Poldark and a Warleggan."  Elizabeth left two young children behind who are Warleggans.  Does Geoffrey Charles give damn about his brother and sister?  He seemed awfully happy discussing how his dead mother was a Poldark.

 

That bothered me too. I know they meant it as a compliment, but I felt it ignored Elizabeth's dynamic and identity in the family. The Poldarks tend to be a passionate people, given to really grand and/or boneheaded decisions made in the heat of the moment. This is basically Ross in a nutshell, but it is true of other family members too. Even Verity, who probably is the most sensible Poldark, in her romance with Blighty seemed very Poldark-ian. Elizabeth was always less guided by her emotions and more deliberate and traditional in her values and decisions than the Poldarks. 

[MostlyC]

I think, that back in the days of yore, it was customary for a a woman to be buried next to her first husband.  So for George not to do so was a kind of slap in the face to the Poldarks.

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don’t get what’s so great about Elizabeth being a traditional female of her time, at a time where women had no rights.  That’s akin to watching a movie about slavery, where the slave just lets the master beat them.  

Just me personally, but I find historical fiction that deals with those historical issues more interesting than female characters who are specifically designed to break the mold. That's not to say those non-traditional characters can't be fun or that people like them didn't exist or that the opposite results in feel-good stories, but I often find those un-traditional female characters exceptionally unrealistic. (Primarily because nobody ever really treats them like the oddities they would have been.) It's not great those things happened to women then (or even now for that matter), but it is refreshing to me when stories try to take an honest look at it.

Unlike Demelza or Caroline or Verity, Elizabeth's story is about as un-fairy-tale as it gets. I think that makes for a more complex and thought-provoking and ultimately realistic narrative, and I found the way she negotiated what was a lot of disappointment interesting. It was sometimes very hard to root for Elizabeth and the decisions she made, but I always understood why she made them and I always respected her pragmatism. And less on a historical side, but I think Elizabeth's character demonstrated far more growth than a lot of the female characters--or, for that matter, the male characters.

Of course, different strokes for different folks. :)

Edited November 20, 2018 by Zella

[Popples]

22 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

I think, that back in the days of yore, it was customary for a a woman to be buried next to her first husband.  So for George not to do so was a kind of slap in the face to the Poldarks.

Ugh, does that mean Morwenna has to be buried next to Oswald? 

[MostlyC]

Well, Ossie had a wife before her, so who knows what the rules are for that....

[ScoobieDoobs]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

And less on a historical side, but I think Elizabeth's character demonstrated far more growth than a lot of the female characters--or, for that matter, the male characters.

 

Idk, Elizabeth was all over the place.  Yeah, she looked horrified at the way George threw Morwenna out.  Uh, but why?  It wasn't exactly out of his character.  She seemed to sometimes think she could tame his cruelty & monstrousness & his obsession with Ross.  And yet she knew she couldn't.  That's really why she was taking that stuff that led to her death.

Did Elizabeth "grow" as a character?  Sorta, but I never took to her.  Must say, I hated Heida when this show started & thought she was a shitty actress.  But she really grew on me.  She was good in this ep.  Still, I didn't have any feeling of sadness at Elizabeth's death.  That must say something about this character.  I was only thinking how her death will definitely leave a big hole for the next season.

A smiling Morwenna kinda freaked me out.  Has it been mentioned before that Drake is a terrible actor?  

Edited November 20, 2018 by ScoobieDoobs

[voiceover]

11 hours ago, taanja said:

He's got a great big hole right through the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.

Aha.  Well said, Doc.

[Pestilentia]

Quote

I don’t get what’s so great about Elizabeth being a traditional female of her time, at a time where women had no rights. That’s akin to watching a movie about slavery, where the slave just lets the master beat them.  

Because it is accurate.  

You are watching a period drama after all, not a show set in 2018. 

History cannot be whitewashed because it offends current sensibilities- we want our historical fiction to be factual. Otherwise what's the point of getting the dresses and the home furnishings right and even the right breed of trendy dog for Caroline? If we want the pretty parts to reflect what really existed at the time then we have to accept the ugly, too.

Otherwise you are watching fantasy.

[Zella]

4 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Idk, Elizabeth was all over the place.  Yeah, she looked horrified at the way George threw Morwenna out.  Uh, but why?  It wasn't exactly out of his character.  She seemed to sometimes think she could tame his cruelty & monstrousness & his obsession with Ross.  And yet she knew she couldn't.  That's really why she was taking that stuff that led to her death.

Did Elizabeth "grow" as a character?  Sorta, but I never took to her.  Must say, I hated Heida when this show started & thought she was a shitty actress.  But she really grew on me.  She was good in this ep.  Still, I didn't have any feeling of sadness at Elizabeth's death.  That must say something about this character.  I was only thinking how her death will definitely leave a big hole for the next season.

A smiling Morwenna kinda freaked me out.  Has it been mentioned before that Drake is a terrible actor?  

 

I don't think all the changes have to be positive for a character to grow. As i mentioned in my original post, not everything she did was good. But Elizabeth went from a very passive character to one who was a much more active author of her own fortune, and in that sense,  she definitely grew.  Season 1 Elizabeth would never have went to see the quack doctor or lied to George on a Bible about Valentine because she couldn't even run her own household. 

Hahaha Drake is is a terrible actor! I think Morwenna is too. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Zella

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

Hahaha Drake is is a terrible actor! I think Morwenna is too. 

Without their matching eyebrows they might not have any stage presence at all.

I agree with your  (and Pestilentia's) posts about Elizabeth.  I found her character interesting from the first.  Last night's flash back and Ross's speech about how the three men had all wanted her, brought her full circle for me.  In the very first episode we saw how heartbroken, thrilled and deeply regretful she was to find out Ross was still alive.  We've all had "what might have been" regrets, and I never blamed her for marrying Francis, particularly while Elizabeth was still under the thumb of her mother.  Later on, I loved seeing her make a man out of Francis and I think she was on her way to making a much better man out of George. 

Seeing women live under the constraints of the past never makes me think less of them, on the contrary,  in many ways they had to be smarter and more resourceful than women of today in order to get things done, make a good life for their children, and live their own best lives.  Considering how many of them had to suffer through the death of a child, it's a miracle of strength  they kept gong at all.

[Ohwell]

27 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Later on, I loved seeing her make a man out of Francis and I think she was on her way to making a much better man out of George.

I don't agree that Elizabeth was on her way to making a much better man out of George.  I think she was on the way to making him easier to live with for her and her children, but as far as dealing with other people, he will still be the same little rat bastard that he's always been.

[dubbel zout]

12 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

as far as dealing with other people, [George] will still be the same little rat bastard that he's always been.

I agree; Elizabeth's entreaties just made George sneakier about his plans. He didn't mention them to her anymore.

[Ohiopirate02]

14 hours ago, MissL said:

I was wondering if anyone else caught the moment when George let Ross go see Elizabeth and he said something like "yes, yes go see what we have brought her to."  For a second I thought he'd somehow now figured out that she did something to herself in order to have the baby early.   But now I don't know because I don't think he'd let Valentine hold his hand if he still thought he was Ross' kid.  He did say something about how their daughter looks nothing like her mother so..the dads looks come out on top with Elizabeth? I don't know.  Maybe he just thought she got upset and went into labor early  because of their fight.

I took that very truthful statement by George differently.  George does not suspect Elizabeth of hastening this birth, he actually has no clue what she had done.  Childbirth at the time was always a risky proposition for both the mother and the baby.  I took George's statement as his realization that all his machinations against Ross and Francis were ultimately pointless.  Yes George "won" Elizabeth from Ross, but at what cost.  He is admitting that he should have spent the last few years enjoying being married to the woman he loved instead of trying to constantly stick it to Ross.  Obviously, there is no way George and Ross can ever be friends, but they could have been cordial to each other.  I think that George will start to let go of his need to destroy the whole Poldark family.  

[Ohwell]

19 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I think that George will start to let go of his need to destroy the whole Poldark family. 

Judging by the look on his face at the end, I'm thinking just the opposite.  He's got nothing to lose now so he'll go full bore against the Poldarks.  At some point he might change, but that's where he is right now. 

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I think that George will start to let go of his need to destroy the whole Poldark family. 

Judging by the look on his face at the end, I'm thinking just the opposite.  He's got nothing to lose now so he'll go full bore against the Poldarks.  At some point he might change, but that's where he is right now. 

He's getting a knighthood (presumably), and that will put him at a higher social standing than Ross at last. I agree George will double down in trying to destroy Ross. I can't ever see George letting go of his resentment of Ross. It's a huge part of what makes him George Warleggan.

[Driad]

If Elizabeth's baby was due in December and she wanted George to think it was born early, why didn't she tell George it was due in January?  She could probably have fooled even the doctors if she lied about the date of her last cycle.  

[taanja]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

Aha.  Well said, Doc.

Doc Holliday is my spirit animal...

[CTrent29]

18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don’t get what’s so great about Elizabeth being a traditional female of her time, at a time where women had no rights.  That’s akin to watching a movie about slavery, where the slave just lets the master beat them.  

There is nothing bad or good about Elizabeth being a traditional female of the late 18th century.  She was just one.  That's all.  And if I must be honest, I also regard Demelza as a traditional wife, despite Debbie Horsfield's attempts to "modernize" her.  She kept Ross' name.  She never had her own profession, let alone property.  The only time she took care of his property and business interests were when he was away.  Elizabeth or any other wife would have done the same.  Both women usually supported their husbands, unless the latter did something to make them disagree with the men.  Demelza had a more extroverted personality, but I don't feel that made her more "modern" or superior to Elizabeth.  Nor do I see the need to condemn Elizabeth because she was a more reserved personality.  I'm a reserved personality.  I do not regard myself as inferior to those women who are more inclined to display their emotions.  Nor do I feel superior to them.  

 

Quote

Idk, Elizabeth was all over the place.  Yeah, she looked horrified at the way George threw Morwenna out.  Uh, but why?  It wasn't exactly out of his character.  She seemed to sometimes think she could tame his cruelty & monstrousness & his obsession with Ross.  And yet she knew she couldn't.  That's really why she was taking that stuff that led to her death.

 

I disagree.  Elizabeth's use of the potion was a way to convince George that giving premature birth was common with her.  And she wanted to convince him of this to erase his suspicions about Valentine's birth and end this obsession of Ross.  And all of this came about, because Ross thought he had the right to prevent her from marrying George.  When he failed to convince Elizabeth to end the engagement, he forced himself on her, leading to Valentine's conception.  

 

In his own way, I believe Ross was also a monster.

Edited November 20, 2018 by CTrent29

[nodorothyparker]

4 hours ago, Driad said:

If Elizabeth's baby was due in December and she wanted George to think it was born early, why didn't she tell George it was due in January?  She could probably have fooled even the doctors if she lied about the date of her last cycle.  

That's what Ross suggested she do a million years ago in their meetup in the church and it's what she originally intended to do.  She wanted to delay announcing her pregnancy for as long as possible to make it easier to fudge her dates.  But then she fainted in public at the charity hospital dedication and both George and Dwight as a doctor kept pressing her on her health and could she possibly be pregnant and I guess we're to think she couldn't make her math work on the fly in admitting to it.  

[NeenerNeener]

5 hours ago, Driad said:

If Elizabeth's baby was due in December and she wanted George to think it was born early, why didn't she tell George it was due in January?  She could probably have fooled even the doctors if she lied about the date of her last cycle.  

Or, made up some excuse that she had to be on two months bed rest to make sure she didn't faint and "deliver early" again. She could probably have faked out both Dwight and Choake about how delicate she may or may not have been.

 

At some point we're going to have a massive time jump and start focusing on the offspring as teenagers, aren't we? And then I'm expecting a Romeo-and-Juliet thing with Jeremy and Ursula, and a Mayor-of-Candor storyline with Clowance and Valentine. Of course, I haven't read the books so I don't know if any of this stuff happened in the books; I just know how tv shows usually go.

[Nolefan]

I thought it was really rich of Ross to tear into George with his “what more did he want” speech when in my opinion Ross is as bad as George. Just like George, Ross has been stewing over Demelza and Hugh, yet George is the bad guy because he is suspicious (and rightly so) of Elizabeth and Ross?  I am guessing if Demelza had become pregnant after her encounter with Hugh, and Ross wasn’t sure if he was the father or not, Ross would have handled it the same way, if not worse, than George. As shown in the flashback, Ross had everything (all the women wanted to be with him, and all the men wanted to be him), but he chose to be shipped to America, and I am pretty sure the reason why is his weird hero complex. I am also putting 95 percent of the blame on Ross for Elizabeth’s death. In my opinion, Ross never loved Elizabeth. He is just incapable of losing to anyone else. Elizabeth had moved on with both Francis and then George, but it was Ross, not Elizabeth, who could not let go. Because of this, Ross (married to another woman) took advantage of Elizabeth (or at worse forced himself on her) when he stormed to her home that night, resulting in Valentine. Elizabeth was then left to deal with the consequences, while Ross goes home to his wife. Instead of staying out of Elizabeth’s life, he continued to insert himself because of his hero complex, whether it be by helping Geoffrey Charles and Morwenna or giving Elizabeth stupid advice about having George’s baby prematurely. Then, Elizabeth dies, and as someone posted above, has the nerve to  force himself into another man’s home to see his dying wife? I am with those who are in the hate Ross camp.

[TigerLynx]

23 hours ago, MissL said:

I was wondering if anyone else caught the moment when George let Ross go see Elizabeth and he said something like "yes, yes go see what we have brought her to."  For a second I thought he'd somehow now figured out that she did something to herself in order to have the baby early.   But now I don't know because I don't think he'd let Valentine hold his hand if he still thought he was Ross' kid.  He did say something about how their daughter looks nothing like her mother so..the dads looks come out on top with Elizabeth? I don't know.  Maybe he just thought she got upset and went into labor early  because of their fight.

I wondered about it to.  The irony is, the three men who supposedly loved Elizabeth, ruined her life.  Francis left her in debt, Ross raped her, and George's jealousy drove Elizabeth to do something that cost her her life.

9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Without their matching eyebrows they might not have any stage presence at all.

I agree with your  (and Pestilentia's) posts about Elizabeth.  I found her character interesting from the first.  Last night's flash back and Ross's speech about how the three men had all wanted her, brought her full circle for me.  In the very first episode we saw how heartbroken, thrilled and deeply regretful she was to find out Ross was still alive.  We've all had "what might have been" regrets, and I never blamed her for marrying Francis, particularly while Elizabeth was still under the thumb of her mother.  Later on, I loved seeing her make a man out of Francis and I think she was on her way to making a much better man out of George. 

Seeing women live under the constraints of the past never makes me think less of them, on the contrary,  in many ways they had to be smarter and more resourceful than women of today in order to get things done, make a good life for their children, and live their own best lives.  Considering how many of them had to suffer through the death of a child, it's a miracle of strength  they kept gong at all.

Elizabeth being a traditional woman who had to navigate circumstances she never expected to find herself in, is why I find her interesting.  Elizabeth played by the rules of her society, and it constantly bit her in the ass.  Women were expected to marry, have children, and be good wives.  Despite George being an ass 99.9% of the time, Elizabeth still tried to support her husband and give him good advice.  Elizabeth did everything she could to insure her children's futures to.  I'm so glad I live in 2018.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Nolefan said:

I thought it was really rich of Ross to tear into George with his “what more did he want” speech when in my opinion Ross is as bad as George. Just like George, Ross has been stewing over Demelza and Hugh, yet George is the bad guy because he is suspicious (and rightly so) of Elizabeth and Ross?

Ross hasn't tried to ruin Hugh and everyone connected to him at every turn the way George has with Ross and his family. Ross has been an ass about Hugh, no doubt, but he's not sending dogs after terrified women or trying to bankrupt Hugh's business.

[Nolefan]

13 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Ross hasn't tried to ruin Hugh and everyone connected to him at every turn the way George has with Ross and his family. Ross has been an ass about Hugh, no doubt, but he's not sending dogs after terrified women or trying to bankrupt Hugh's business.

Maybe, but at least you know what you are going to get when dealing with George. Maybe Ross’ charm and/or good looks allows him to treat the women in his life like doormats, and the women seem almost bizarrely ok with it. The worst Ross has got from Demelza is a side eye with respect to his years of pining over Elizabeth, his night with Elizabeth, and his child with Elizabeth. And Elizabeth just welcomes Ross back into her life after the one night affair that left her with his child. I don’t know if the show is attempting to show some girl power by showing women are stronger or more mature than men by putting up with their bad behavior. But by making Ross out to be some sort of hero it almost feel like the show is sending some unintended message that women should just shut up and put up with this bad behavior. Or maybe it is supposed to show women had no choice but to do this in those times.

[NeenerNeener]

On 11/19/2018 at 8:39 PM, MissL said:

He did say something about how their daughter looks nothing like her mother so..t

My first thought was that Ursula looks like George, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe she looks so much like Elizabeth that it's breaking George's heart all over again, so he has to convince himself that she doesn't look like her mother at all. It's a subtle bit of acting that could go either way.

I'm with those folks who said they never thought they'd feel sorry for George Warleggen. Bravo, Jack Farthing.

Edited November 22, 2018 by NeenerNeener

[Neurochick]

I still don’t feel sorry for George.  I think it’s been twice that he’s encouraged some man to see if they could have sex with Demelza, even if by force.  Yuk.

[Rap541]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:27 AM, HunterHunted said:

Whereas, George has repeatedly insinuated to multiple people in society that Demelza is a low class slattern who will fuck anyone.

Well, isn't that pretty much what *Ross* thinks? 

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:26 PM, Driad said:

Ross is decorative but tedious. "Chicken for supper? When it died, did you think of Hugh?" If I were Demelza, I'd be thinking of a cleaver and a taxidermist. "Ross is so pretty ands quiet now."

Honestly he's been annoying as fuck about this. Really Ross, if you want to play the "I'm now righteously flinging your dead lover in your face" game, then remember that there's a reason it's awkward that Valentine Warleggan looks like you.. its because you fucked Elizabeth, you took a lover, you committed adultery. I mean, show some fucking self awareness.

 

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:45 PM, voiceover said:

I do credit Ross for finally saying to George what the audience has been thinking these past months: What more do you want??

George wants Ross to acknowledge him as an equal. Thats what this has always been about. Ross even superficially understands that this is the real problem - that he was an utter shit to George when they were children, the way children can be, treating George like shit beneath his shoes because George was lower class and Ross found him grating and had the position to get away with it. Ross is too proud to acknowledge this with a real apology - and George is probably too enraged/constantly fearful that Ross is right, that he is just jumped up trash, to ever accept such an apology. But that's what George want. 

That Ross fucked his wife and probably got her with child is also pretty fucking insulting, all things considered. Ross should recall that people commit murder over less. Hell, if Hugh hadn't just died anyway, Ross would have killed him. 

[peaceknit]

I never read the book, but love the series. During the final scenes with Drake and Morwenna, it seemed to me that they would be the type of people who would emigrate to America during that time, and I'm wondering if they did in future. That would surely keep them out of the clutches of George and give them a fresh life.

[Ohwell]

9 minutes ago, peaceknit said:

I never read the book, but love the series. During the final scenes with Drake and Morwenna, it seemed to me that they would be the type of people who would emigrate to America during that time, and I'm wondering if they did in future. That would surely keep them out of the clutches of George and give them a fresh life.

I haven't read the book either, but I agree that it would be far better for them to just go to America.  If they stay in Cornwall, I can see them building a nice little home and George having his henchman burning it down, or even worse, trying to harm Morwenna, yet again.

So, Ross was a meanie to George when they were young.  (I don't know of any adults who weren't bullied by someone as a child.)  But they're adults now, and George needs to get over the past and stop being an evil bastard to those who have done him no wrong, like Drake for instance.   

[Rap541]

21 hours ago, Ohwell said:

So, Ross was a meanie to George when they were young.  (I don't know of any adults who weren't bullied by someone as a child.)  But they're adults now, and George needs to get over the past and stop being an evil bastard to those who have done him no wrong, like Drake for instance.   

Far be it for me to defend George, but you do want to put the issue in the proper time frame. Ross bullied George when they were boys in boarding school because George was a commoner, a boy whose grandpa was a blacksmith who made good while Ross, by dint of his birth, was "above" George.

George and the Warleggans in general are constantly reminded that they are common trash and any misstep will send them back to the trash pile while the Poldarks of the world can get their various misdeeds excused and whitewashed - Ross was sent to America to avoid jail, and has repeatedly broken the law. Francis lost the family fortune by gambling but they're still *born* better and do laud that in George's face. And the society they live in backs that view. Ross, by his birth status, can afford to be an eccentric who is kind to the lowly. If someone of George's birth pulled half of Ross's shit, the nobles would band together to make that upstart was *ground down to the dirt he came from*.

I mean, I am not endorsing George being an utter shit to the common folk but the reality is that George is conforming to what he thinks and believes the upper class is like and he's mostly not wrong - it's Ross with his liberal leanings and kindness to common folk that's the weirdo here.

As for Drake - George goes after Drake because Drake was playing taunting games with the frogs that Ross heartily endorsed because Ross as a child enjoyed tormenting George with frogs and was amused that Drake and Geoffrey Charles were taunting George in a way that expressly reminded George that he was a piece of shit piece of trash that was never going to be born as well as one Ross Poldark. Now did George vastly overreact? Oh yes. Did Ross gleefully endorse treating George in a way that reminded George how Ross and the Poldarks were up here and George and the Warleggans were down there? Oh yes. 

George has always needed to grow the fuck up, but Ross suffers from that flaw as well. 

[Ohwell]

20 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

As for Drake - George goes after Drake because Drake was playing taunting games with the frogs that Ross heartily endorsed because Ross as a child enjoyed tormenting George with frogs and was amused that Drake and Geoffrey Charles were taunting George in a way that expressly reminded George that he was a piece of shit piece of trash that was never going to be born as well as one Ross Poldark. Now did George vastly overreact? Oh yes. Did Ross gleefully endorse treating George in a way that reminded George how Ross and the Poldarks were up here and George and the Warleggans were down there? Oh yes. 

I forgot about Drake and the frogs, but even that didn't warrant George having his henchman burn Drake's house down.   And poor Morwenna gets drawn into it.

I don't know what circumstances would have warranted calling for a duel, but if George can do that, he should just have a duel with Ross and settle this feud once and for all.  I could at least respect him for that.  But we all know that won't happen because George is a coward.