S03.E09: The Wish

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; All of it! Just wonderful! Great reveal of Anya the demon and the action sequences especially

The Bad; Surely in vamp-dominated Sunnydale people would prefer to let their kids drive home from SDH?

Best line; Buffy; "Your logic is not like our earth logic"

Character death; Everyone except Giles, Larry, Harmony and Oz. But then thankfully they're all alive again. Cordy's death is particularly disturbing. Of course the obvious question is what about all the people who died in the proper Buffyverse? It would have been a nice touch if Jenny, Jessie and Principle Flutie were still alive at SDH, if Nancy was actually Theresa from Phases. And of course if Buffy never died in the Master's pool then Kendra is still alive too

Shot; VampXander is hit by Buffy's crossbow

Tied up; Angel in chains

Knocked out; Giles and Oz

Women good/men bad; If anything with Vampwillow we see female-kind at it's worse. The way Harmony and co treat Cordy is horrible, you really feel for her but I guess it's revenge for her 'Sheep' speech.

Kinky dinky; Where do you begin? PVC-clad VampWillow plays no-safety-word S&M sex games with 'Puppy' whilst leather-clad vampXander watches. Buffy thinks the hero worship that everyone shows her in Sunnydale is a 'get in my pants thing'.

Calling Captain Subtext; vampWillow has obvious lesbian overtones (her killing of both Cordy and the Master's victim is almost akin to snuff). However she still digs Xander and Angel so it's still more than likely she's bi rather than gay.

Guantanamo Bay; Plenty of torture but only by the bad guys

Questions and observations Staggeringly brilliant in every way and anyone who doesn't think so should be locked up as a danger to themselves and others. Great ending too, cool, touching and funny, wonderful music. Plus Jonathon AND Larry, great.

What is the Mayor doing in Master dominated Sunnydale? 

Spoiler

And the Initiative?

Where are Darla and Luke, killed by the White Hat's? Where are Hank and Joyce? Who is the Watcher Giles talks to on the telephone?

Spoiler

Wesley?

Sam Zebuto (Kendra's Watcher)? Gwendoline Post? Giles refers to demonic activity in Cleveland which will be referenced in

Spoiler

Chosen as Giles says there's a 2nd Hellmouth there (presumably inactive?)

We always knew Buffy was an exceptional Slayer and that the Watcher's found her late but here we see that without Giles and the Scoobies' help she ends up battle-hardened, emotionally cut off and with the Slayer death-wish, just like all the others. Interesting to compare 'The Wish' Buffy with Faith (and what's happening to her in the Wishverse?) And here's Anya, no sign as yet that she'll

Spoiler

become a major character and appear in the opening credits.

Now, where does the Wishverse lie in the continuity of things? I figure it's a dead end, a right angle to the real time-stream that stops dead at the moment Giles smashes the pendant. Of course what happens if the Wishverse had continued? Well with all respect to Kendra I don't see her lasting that long leaving it to Faith to defeat The Master. So that would mean that 

Spoiler

Dawn is Faith's sister (a little more Gothy/Avril Lavigne?),

Giles her Watcher, a grieving Joyce and Hank surrogate parents to both LeHane girls and Larry, Oz, Harmony and Amy as the Scoobygang? Would that make Spike the

Spoiler

PTB's souled-vamp champion, just try picturing him and Doyle as a team.

Interesting to wonder, huh? Once read a great fanfic called 'Backwardsworld' where all the Scoobys are vamps but this meant that the valiant Darla was the Slayer and The Mayor, a human Spike and Dru, 

Spoiler

Adam, Glory and the Nerds

were all good guys and made up her alternate Scooby Gang. It says a lot for the depth of character Joss gives his villains that the concept actually worked really well, that they all could have been heroes if things had taken a different path.

Actually Cordy has dated Jonathon before or at least let him buy her a muffin at the Bronze in Inca Mummy Girl. We hear the gang go on about how Faith has become more and more distant since the events of Revelations, Buffy has sympathy for her and we later see she wouldn't have been too different to her under other circumstances. You have to agree with Oz turning Will down, he's right as to her motivations. You note that although things are bad in SD the Harvest wasn't the end of the world it was advertised to be, the rest of the world goes on pretty much unaffected. How do they dispose of all the demon bodies they leave lying around? Legend has it there's a girl looking just like Faith amongst the prisoners at the Factory. Eliza Dushku however has stated at a convention that this definitely isn't her, she wasn't even on set that day. Popular explanation is that this is her stand in/stunt double earning some spare cash as an extra.

10/10 and a whole lot more

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

I remember hearing about this episode before it aired and I was very excited about it. Nightmare Sunnydale with Willow and Xander as vampires was a great idea. Nowadays though, I do think it's also an episode that is kind of silly and sort of campy in its conceit despite its darkness. At least sometimes, I find Willow and Xander involuntarily ridiculous in their leather outfits and behavior.

 

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VampWillow is much better when used comedically in Doppelgangland, as opposed to the dark terror that she is supposed to represent here.

 

Buffy being a hardened and emotional cut off slayer just by never coming to Sunnydale is also not entirely believable. They went to that extreme for a reason, but let's be real: When Buffy was called, she was still a normal teenager and she still had her Mom to ground her, even if she didn't come to Sunnydale. And what horrible things supposedly happened to her that she is so hardened, when she has had her fair share of traumatic experiences in Sunnydale as well?  I don't find it believable that she would become this version of herself in only three years - even if she didn't have a friend group.

 

Anya's introduction was fun. Watching the episode for the first time, I never would have believed that

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such a minor one-off character would eventually turn into such a prominent character later on. Though I do think they had to rewrite her and retcon her later on, as she acts all clueless about humans later on, but here she has no trouble fitting in as a highschool student, with no problems relating to Cordelia.

 

One thing that has to be acknowledged for this episode is the fantastic score by Christophe Beck,  "Slayer Elegy" and "Blood Machine", in particular.

 

Charisma Carpenter looks great in the episode. It's kind of a shame that she is killed halfway through. It would have been great if this had been a full Cordelia episode. Her death scene is pretty jarring though.

Later eps sort of play the whole concept more for laughs, contrasting the Willow we know and love with this very different version but it's still brilliant, how unsettling is the torture scene? In Passion Willow says she wanted a puppy but not like this!  Apparently AH loved the costume so much she wore it for Halloween. I think CC's death halfway through was a dramatic necessity, we kept expecting her to be the heroine with her knowledge of the real world to be able to set things right, when she abruptly dies Psycho style halfway through we just think 'Damn! How are we going to fix it now?'

The Buffy in this world may have lost Hank and Joyce and will 

Spoiler

never have Dawn, she'll be Faith's sister. 

3 years of never ending combat without her friends and family to support her would drive anyone to the edge, even soldiers in combat get occasional leave, she doesn't, she's the one and only.

I always think it's a shame that they never used this ep as an opportunity to bring Pike back, if only for a cameo or mention. Or if her Watcher was Gwendoline Post? As for Anya I figure her fitting in at SDH was part of her demon powers, once her necklace is broken she's just that awkward girl from Sweden again (similar conundrum with Cameron in The Sarah Connor Chronicles).   

[Halting Hex]

Sooooo…Wish!Oz and Wish!Larry…dating? Or just good friends?  Discuss. ;)

I always say that Vamp!Xander is a better Spike than Spike, so nicely and casually thuggish.  But, of course 

Spoiler

he doesn't stick around long enough to get emasculated and discover his inner drama queen.  Subject him to a chipping (is the Initiative operational in this Sunnydale?  Seems unlikely) and maybe he'll devolve into a whiny little vamp-bitch, too.  But Buffy slays him, so we'll never know.

Nicole Bilderback, the blood machine victim, was apparently a Cordette in the unaired pilot.  Huh, I'll have to check that out, again.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Sooooo…Wish!Oz and Wish!Larry…dating? Or just good friends?  Discuss. ;)

I always say that Vamp!Xander is a better Spike than Spike, so nicely and casually thuggish.  But, of course 

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he doesn't stick around long enough to get emasculated and discover his inner drama queen.  Subject him to a chipping (is the Initiative operational in this Sunnydale?  Seems unlikely) and maybe he'll devolve into a whiny little vamp-bitch, too.  But Buffy slays him, so we'll never know.

Nicole Bilderback, the blood machine victim, was apparently a Cordette in the unaired pilot.  Huh, I'll have to check that out, again.

Yeah that would be a pairing although we don't even know if Larry is out in the Wishverse? He wouldn't have had Xander to have the talk with. 

[Loandbehold]

My favorite episode of the series. I'm a sucker for AU and time travel stories and this AU story breaks several tropes. Due credit to Marti Noxon for this episode. Usually, the person sent to the AU either has a job to do there and become the hero, or they have to learn something about themself that they take back w/ them. But, while Cordy does mention Buffy to Giles, she is killed soon thereafter. She doesn't remember the epiphany (that life in the 'Dale was better b/c Buffy came there) and Giles is too late to save the AU Scoobies. (The Master is still alive, along w/ a number of vamps, so I don't think Larry, Oz and other students actually made it out of the factory.) Which makes this a "What if" episode for the audience. And I love it. I prefer Vamp!Willow scary and unpredictable rather than more cartoony. Torturing Angel is never not fun. Wishverse Buffy's introduction is great. And, I loved the signs in the SHS hallways, including the Winter Brunch. And, we culminate in the Ballet O' Death. On top of that, Giles' fatalistic optimism as he breaks Anya's jewel (not like that). 

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

My favorite episode of the series. I'm a sucker for AU and time travel stories and this AU story breaks several tropes. Due credit to Marti Noxon for this episode. Usually, the person sent to the AU either has a job to do there and become the hero, or they have to learn something about themself that they take back w/ them. But, while Cordy does mention Buffy to Giles, she is killed soon thereafter. She doesn't remember the epiphany (that life in the 'Dale was better b/c Buffy came there) and Giles is too late to save the AU Scoobies. (The Master is still alive, along w/ a number of vamps, so I don't think Larry, Oz and other students actually made it out of the factory.) Which makes this a "What if" episode for the audience. And I love it. I prefer Vamp!Willow scary and unpredictable rather than more cartoony. Torturing Angel is never not fun. Wishverse Buffy's introduction is great. And, I loved the signs in the SHS hallways, including the Winter Brunch. And, we culminate in the Ballet O' Death. On top of that, Giles' fatalistic optimism as he breaks Anya's jewel (not like that). 

Yeah, most shows do an alternate reality ep in their time but I think Buffy does it better than most. She was so popular there actually was a vampWillow cartoon for a while;

https://e-hentai.org/s/648c0134f0/251154-2

And yes, I too love the desperate, out of his depth Giles claiming victory with his act of faith, essentially bluffing on a pair of 8s.  

[Halting Hex]

17 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

(The Master is still alive, along w/ a number of vamps, so I don't think Larry, Oz and other students actually made it out of the factory.)

I believe that the universe ends when Giles breaks the jewel, so while the White Hats suddenly become non-existent (along with everyone else still in the factory), they are spared any potentially-gruesome fates.

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Willow and Anya are able to (accidentally) summon Vamp!Willow in Döppelgängland because their spell intersected this dimension's timeline before Giles ended it, grabbing Vamp!Willow before Wish!Oz can stake her.  A few seconds later and there'd be nobody left to bring over, Wish!Giles having ended that timeline and restored the "better world" of the main one.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I believe that the universe ends when Giles breaks the jewel, so while the White Hats suddenly become non-existent (along with everyone else still in the factory), they are spared any potentially-gruesome fates.

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Willow and Anya are able to (accidentally) summon Vamp!Willow in Döppelgängland because their spell intersected this dimension's timeline before Giles ended it, grabbing Vamp!Willow before Wish!Oz can stake her.  A few seconds later and there'd be nobody left to bring over, Wish!Giles having ended that timeline and restored the "better world" of the main one.

Yeah, that's how I saw it but I also figure many would have escaped in the confusion and Buffy distracting the Master to form Faith's Scooby Gang. 

[wendyg]

I think it's clear that Kendra was a relatively weak member of the Slayer line. Without Buffy to work with, she might have died sooner.

[Halting Hex]

Well, let's remember that Kendra dies because Buffy's busy tapdancing around with Angel ("Is it me, or is your heart just not in this?") rather than vigorously attacking him, giving Drusilla and her crew a chance to take advantage of the diversion and attack the Library.  ("And you fall for it, every single time!")  A more focused Blitzkrieg!Buffy as we see here, might not have allowed herself to be decoyed away that away.

Of course, Angel couldn't have been the issue (as Puppy's still all in chains here) and with the Master walking around, Buffy probably never died and Kendra hasn't been called yet.  So we're going AU from an AU, which is aways away from the "real" world, I'd think.

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Kendra would have been the next in line though. Who knows if Faith had ever been called if Buffy had not ended up in Sunnydale.

Honestly there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast logic to the Slayer line, I sometimes wonder if the Council lost their ability to predict the new Slayer due to

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Robin Wood keeping the Slayer emergency kit from his mother?

10 hours ago, wendyg said:

I think it's clear that Kendra was a relatively weak member of the Slayer line. Without Buffy to work with, she might have died sooner.

I don't think she's weak, she's a great and heroic fighter but she's the ordinary Slayer, destined to do her duty and die in order to protect the world, Buffy and Faith are the exceptional. 

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, let's remember that Kendra dies because Buffy's busy tapdancing around with Angel ("Is it me, or is your heart just not in this?") rather than vigorously attacking him, giving Drusilla and her crew a chance to take advantage of the diversion and attack the Library.  ("And you fall for it, every single time!")  A more focused Blitzkrieg!Buffy as we see here, might not have allowed herself to be decoyed away that away.

Of course, Angel couldn't have been the issue (as Puppy's still all in chains here) and with the Master walking around, Buffy probably never died and Kendra hasn't been called yet.  So we're going AU from an AU, which is aways away from the "real" world, I'd think.

That's not fair, she made a judgement call and that's what you're forced to do in such situations. If Buffy hadn't come who knows what atrocity Angelus might have committed in revenge for her no-show? 

[Dee]

Buffy and Faith aren't exceptional. They just happened to benefit from a support system Kendra never had the privilege of accessing.

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Dee said:

Buffy and Faith aren't exceptional. They just happened to benefit from a support system Kendra never had the privilege of accessing.

Yes and no, the council obviously found Faith longer than Buffy but Buffy was always the exceptional slayer, she won't conform as they expect her too, including having her scoobies. Neither will Faith but in a different way, Faith was more of a lone wolf warrior rather than the council's instrument. Hence she lasted longer than poor Kendra but ultimately is heading the same way.  

[Spartan Girl]

Poor Cordy.  I really felt for her this episode.  Yeah, it was wrong that she blamed Buffy for indirectly causing all her problems, but she was upset and I couldn't really blame her for wanting nothing to do with the Scooby gang anymore.

I did not feel sorry for Xander.  Cordy told him they were done, so what did he expect?  That he'd actually win her back by bombarding her with all those not-so-contrite "let's laugh it off as a joke" phone calls?  And his whole "That was the last time we were going to kiss so it's all their fault for trying to rescue us" joke was so beyond douchey,  So IMHO, he doesn't have the right to play the "screw her for not taking me back" card.

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Poor Cordy.  I really felt for her this episode.  Yeah, it was wrong that she blamed Buffy for indirectly causing all her problems, but she was upset and I couldn't really blame her for wanting nothing to do with the Scooby gang anymore.

I did not feel sorry for Xander.  Cordy told him they were done, so what did he expect?  That he'd actually win her back by bombarding her with all those not-so-contrite "let's laugh it off as a joke" phone calls?  And his whole "That was the last time we were going to kiss so it's all their fault for trying to rescue us" joke was so beyond douchey,  So IMHO, he doesn't have the right to play the "screw her for not taking me back" card.

Buffy makes the same point but what choice do Xander and Willow have? They feel desperately guilty to have hurt her so and there's nothing they can really do to make her or themselves feel better? I'm almost surprised CC didn't jump on Oz for some revenge sex. We see Xander and CC eventually make up but I'd like to have seen Willow and CC do the same.  

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy makes the same point but what choice do Xander and Willow have? They feel desperately guilty to have hurt her so and there's nothing they can really do to make her or themselves feel better? I'm almost surprised CC didn't jump on Oz for some revenge sex. We see Xander and CC eventually make up but I'd like to have seen Willow and CC do the same.  

At least Willow had the grace and maturity to accept Cordy's anger. Unlike Xander, she didn't bait Cordy at every opportunity she got out of spite. And when Oz told her to back off, she backed off and didn't take the "screw him" route.

[Joe Hellandback]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

At least Willow had the grace and maturity to accept Cordy's anger. Unlike Xander, she didn't bait Cordy at every opportunity she got out of spite. And when Oz told her to back off, she backed off and didn't take the "screw him" route.

To be fair CC went after Xander ruthlessly which she didn't with Willow, sniping at one another was a tradition for Xander and CC since they were children. 

[lembergwatcher]

Wasn't happy with the development in the first part of an ep (W & X tryin' to make it up to their "significant others" was kinda pathetic, then it was Cordy goin' back to her old bitchy ways). Dunno, whether it was that necessary to leave dozens of messages or setting up the "no-touching" rule, but... JMO.

Then it was the second part. First Cordy in the bizarro world of her own making.

Then Xander and Willow in black leather. And immortal "Booored now".

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Cordelia: No. No! No way! I wish us into Bizarro Land, and you guys are still together?! I cannot win!

Of course, Cordy, you cannot win. So get over it.

And, you know, that scene when W & X  vampire selves draining Cordelia in the library is one of my favorite in the season. Sometimes payback is a bitch, Cordelia Chase.

 

In fact I always wanted Cordy to keep every memory regarding her stint in the Wishverse. Especially if she got another urge to insult "miserable" Xander Harris and

"that Willow freak he hangs with" in the  future. I wanted those memories of the fangs on her flesh to wash over her every time she opened her mouth to insult Xander. So it could be like that: "Giles! Giles! Xander and Willow are checking out my neck! I saw that! Tell 'em to stop!"

I liked the way Anya looked in that episode overall.

 

It'd be better if they kept her the cunning manipulative demon for the rest of the show

 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Loandbehold]

25 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

And, you know, that scene when W & X  vampire selves draining Cordelia in the library is one of my favorite in the season.

For me, it's also one of the sexiest scenes in the entire series. C'mon, who amongst us hasn't at least thought about a W/C/X threesome?

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Spoiler

It'd be better if they kept [Anya] the cunning manipulative demon for the rest of the show

 

Who's to say they didn't?  Maybe there was just a lot of misdirection and play-acting going on there… ;)

[lembergwatcher]

Spoiler

I'd believe in misdirection and play-acting if they showed Anya tryin' at least something to sabotage the SG from within. And undermining the Scoobies actually required getting into bed with Giles or Buffy/Willow, because Xander's place in the gang was marginalized since the end of the S.03. In other words, she could ally with Glory or become Spikey's partner in crime. Instead she thought only 'bout Xander's penis all the time... 

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

For me, it's also one of the sexiest scenes in the entire series. C'mon, who amongst us hasn't at least thought about a W/C/X threesome?

Some very sadomasochistic threesome, Cordelia being the submissive.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎25‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 6:14 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Wasn't happy with the development in the first part of an ep (W & X tryin' to make it up to their "significant others" was kinda pathetic, then it was Cordy goin' back to her old bitchy ways). Dunno, whether it was that necessary to leave dozens of messages or setting up the "no-touching" rule, but... JMO.

Then it was the second part. First Cordy in the bizarro world of her own making.

Then Xander and Willow in black leather. And immortal "Booored now".

Of course, Cordy, you cannot win. So get over it.

And, you know, that scene when W & X  vampire selves draining Cordelia in the library is one of my favorite in the season. Sometimes payback is a bitch, Cordelia Chase.

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In fact I always wanted Cordy to keep every memory regarding her stint in the Wishverse. Especially if she got another urge to insult "miserable" Xander Harris and

"that Willow freak he hangs with" in the  future. I wanted those memories of the fangs on her flesh to wash over her every time she opened her mouth to insult Xander. So it could be like that: "Giles! Giles! Xander and Willow are checking out my neck! I saw that! Tell 'em to stop!"

I liked the way Anya looked in that episode overall.

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It'd be better if they kept her the cunning manipulative demon for the rest of the show

 

 

I found that scene incredibly disturbing, akin to snuff with Giles helpless to save her.  

On ‎25‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, Loandbehold said:

For me, it's also one of the sexiest scenes in the entire series. C'mon, who amongst us hasn't at least thought about a W/C/X threesome?

Absolutely but not like THAT!

[lembergwatcher]

I like it when Buffy episodes ended like that:

[Joe Hellandback]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I like it when Buffy episodes ended like that:

I think it was Magic Jane who said fans loved to see the Scoobs happy together at the end of every ep. 

[lembergwatcher]

26 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I think it was Magic Jane who said fans loved to see the Scoobs happy together at the end of every ep. 

Therefore we saw less and less of those endings closer to the end of the show...

[Halting Hex]

Spoiler^?

It's nice that the episode starts just as happily (sort of) with the three of them at the picnic.  So the Three Musketeers reflexively fall back upon each other in situations like this.

Annoying that they have Harmony try to "humiliate" Cordelia by "setting her up" with Jonathan, which is ludicrous since Cordy already dated Jonathan in Reptile Boy, last year.

[Joe Hellandback]

42 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Spoiler^?

It's nice that the episode starts just as happily (sort of) with the three of them at the picnic.  So the Three Musketeers reflexively fall back upon each other in situations like this.

Annoying that they have Harmony try to "humiliate" Cordelia by "setting her up" with Jonathan, which is ludicrous since Cordy already dated Jonathan in Reptile Boy, last year.

To be fair, did Harmony know that?

[Halting Hex]

Liam Duke, one of my video reactors, just reached these episodes and one thing he noted was that the "riding the joy train" scene in the Bronze is rather like the "We're doomed!" tag at the end of I Robot, You Jane.  Which, nice catch.  In both cases, B/W/X are trying to be positive…but can't sustain the mood.  It's just that we get the happy smiling tag at the end here.

Meantime, Liam continues to be in love with Oz and Oz/Willow and freaks out at the sight of anything Xillow-related.  It was hilarious watching his reaction to the VampW/VampX kiss…"I thought we were done with this!"

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Even if the cards are running (mostly) his way, I'm still enjoying the anticipation of his reaction to the W/X moments in The Zeppo and Consequences.  Like pulling the wings off of a fly ;)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 8:42 PM, Halting Hex said:

Liam Duke, one of my video reactors, just reached these episodes and one thing he noted was that the "riding the joy train" scene in the Bronze is rather like the "We're doomed!" tag at the end of I Robot, You Jane.  Which, nice catch.  In both cases, B/W/X are trying to be positive…but can't sustain the mood.  It's just that we get the happy smiling tag at the end here.

Meantime, Liam continues to be in love with Oz and Oz/Willow and freaks out at the sight of anything Xillow-related.  It was hilarious watching his reaction to the VampW/VampX kiss…"I thought we were done with this!"

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Even if the cards are running (mostly) his way, I'm still enjoying the anticipation of his reaction to the W/X moments in The Zeppo and Consequences.  Like pulling the wings off of a fly 😉

Yes, I've started watching Liam too. Reactions are a great way to keep the fandom going until the new series arrives. 

[Halting Hex]

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XANDER:  Well, well, well.  Cordelia Chase, as I live and breathe.

Oh, Harris.  You liar.  You haven't done either of those since (we presume) Willow gave you the hickey of your (un)lifetime, a few years back.

What's more, it's hardly as if Vamp!Xander is planning on running a long-range con on CC here; it's what, twenty or thirty seconds before he drops the mask and pops the fangs?  No, he's just following the vampire's natural deceptive reflex; play innocent and let the humans wonder if they were wrong about you.  Just like "I don't bite" Angel in the pilot.  

Spoiler

Or Eddie [The Freshman] and Jamie [Pangs] trying to briefly bamboozle Buffy next year.

Vampires are creeps.  That's why one slays them.  Simple as that.

[lembergwatcher]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

You haven't done either of those since (we presume) Willow gave you the hickey of your (un)lifetime, a few years back.

Why do most people presume Willow was Xander's sire and not the other way around?

[illdoc]

49 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Why do most people presume Willow was Xander's sire and not the other way around?

Well, VampWillow certainly seems more ... aggressive than VampXander ("I like to watch"). Furthermore, it was Willow who was almost vamp food in "Welcome to the Hellmouth", so probably the assumption is Willow got bit first, then turned Xander. 

[Halting Hex]

Also,

Spoiler

Xander will one day go on record that he's Will-ing to die if that's what Willow wants.

 Not that VampWillow is Willow, not that he submitted to VampJesse, but IMO he'd be more acquiescent than the reverse.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/5/2020 at 5:52 PM, illdoc said:

Well, VampWillow certainly seems more ... aggressive than VampXander ("I like to watch"). Furthermore, it was Willow who was almost vamp food in "Welcome to the Hellmouth", so probably the assumption is Willow got bit first, then turned Xander. 

But without Buffy's Carpe Diem advice would Willow have ever gone with that vamp in the first place?

[Halting Hex]

Well, Jesse "prowled" his way right into Darla's path without any Buffy-shaped assistance.  Perhaps Darla brought Jesse to the lair, Luke did the siring (bamp-chicka-bamp-bamp!), Jesse turned Willow, and Xander proved incapable of resisting his heart the same way he (we presume, again) put down his "bud"?

But Jesse was going to be "nothing more than a meal" until news of Buffy's presence got him "upgraded" to "bait".  So that doesn't track, either.  Feh.

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But without Buffy's Carpe Diem advice would Willow have ever gone with that vamp in the first place?

 

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, Jesse "prowled" his way right into Darla's path without any Buffy-shaped assistance.

Willow was a cautious girl who tried to do the right thing and (mostly) listened to what her parents said (when they were around). I doubt she would've followed Thomas without hearing Buffy's wisdom in the first place. Jesse OTOH was looking for trouble adventure because Cordy hurt his ego by rejecting him for the umpteenth time. 

[watcher1006]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:07 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

But without Buffy's Carpe Diem advice would Willow have ever gone with that vamp in the first place?

I don't worry too much about stuff like this. In a Buffy-less Sunnydale there would presumably been plenty of easy pickin's among clueless high school students.

I do wonder a bit about the boy - Colin (?) - and what part he played in the Wish-verse.

This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. I remember reading on the old tv.com site that it was Charisma Carpenter's favorite episode of BtVS. In addition to the breakup aftermath of Cordelia and Xander, they also had the great scene between Oz and Willow, where Willow camps out by Oz's locker and when they finally come face to face. Oz delivers his totally believable speech to Willow along the lines of: "You can leave me alone. I need to sort things out. The only reason for us to talk is to make you feel better. That's not my problem" (I don't have the exact lines but this is close.)

Anya as a vengeance demon in this episode feels more threatening here than she does later in the Seasons 6-7 when she goes back to that existence. The only time she comes close to this is at the beginning of the Season 7 episode "Selfless"

I feel that the Master, having risen successfully, is also more menacing here than in the whole arc of Season 1.

Finally, I remember being totally unsettled by the battle scene where the core characters kill each other, capped off by the Master breaking Buffy's neck. It shows the degree to which Buffy depends on her team of supporting players in the "normal" reality.

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

It shows the degree to which Buffy depends on her team of supporting players in the "normal" reality.

From the teaser:

Quote

XANDER:  So tell us, [Buffy], how do you deal?
BUFFY:  I have you guys.

Nice job of spotlighting the theme of the episode, right up front.

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I don't worry too much about stuff like this. In a Buffy-less Sunnydale there would presumably been plenty of easy pickin's among clueless high school students.

I do wonder a bit about the boy - Colin (?) - and what part he played in the Wish-verse.

This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. I remember reading on the old tv.com site that it was Charisma Carpenter's favorite episode of BtVS. In addition to the breakup aftermath of Cordelia and Xander, they also had the great scene between Oz and Willow, where Willow camps out by Oz's locker and when they finally come face to face. Oz delivers his totally believable speech to Willow along the lines of: "You can leave me alone. I need to sort things out. The only reason for us to talk is to make you feel better. That's not my problem" (I don't have the exact lines but this is close.)

 

  Reveal spoiler

Anya as a vengeance demon in this episode feels more threatening here than she does later in the Seasons 6-7 when she goes back to that existence. The only time she comes close to this is at the beginning of the Season 7 episode "Selfless"

 

I feel that the Master, having risen successfully, is also more menacing here than in the whole arc of Season 1.

Finally, I remember being totally unsettled by the battle scene where the core characters kill each other, capped off by the Master breaking Buffy's neck. It shows the degree to which Buffy depends on her team of supporting players in the "normal" reality.

That's actually a good point, in the Wishverse the Anointed could be anyone, not just Colin. I wonder if Buffy maybe met him on the way to Sunnydale?

[Loandbehold]

20 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I do wonder a bit about the boy - Colin (?) - and what part he played in the Wish-verse.

 

20 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I feel that the Master, having risen successfully, is also more menacing here than in the whole arc of Season 1.

It's because the Harvest succeeded and allowed the Master to rise that Colin wasn't needed. So that prophecy went *poof*. Not to mention that the actor looked like he was sixteen by this time. 

 

20 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

This is one of my favorite episodes of the series.

It's my favorite. 

 

20 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

they also had the great scene between Oz and Willow, where Willow camps out by Oz's locker and when they finally come face to face. Oz delivers his totally believable speech to Willow along the lines of: "You can leave me alone. I need to sort things out. The only reason for us to talk is to make you feel better. That's not my problem" (I don't have the exact lines but this is close.)

You definitely have the gist of the scene. This was probably my favorite Willow-Oz scene. I liked Oz when he was with Buffy, Xander, or Cordelia, but not with Willow. He was too perfect with her. But this scene was excellent.

20 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Finally, I remember being totally unsettled by the battle scene where the core characters kill each other, capped off by the Master breaking Buffy's neck. It shows the degree to which Buffy depends on her team of supporting players in the "normal" reality.

The Ballet o' Death is awesome. Shockingly awesome. As was Cordy's "death" scene (sexiest scene in the entire series - a threesome!). [Although Joe Hellandback strongly disagrees with this viewpoint.] And Vamp!Willow playing w/ Puppy!Angel. So much to love in this episode.

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/25/2020 at 8:59 PM, Loandbehold said:

I liked Oz when he was with Buffy, Xander, or Cordelia, but not with Willow. He was too perfect with her. But this scene was excellent.

Exactly. The aforementioned scene was good, but

Spoiler

W/O conversation the morning after Oz locked Veruca in his cage in Wild at Heart gives me so much moral satisfaction that it outshines every other Willoz scene throughout the three seasons of them being together.

 

[lembergwatcher]

Another thing's never occured to me until recently. It's some kind of rule for the vampires in the Buffyverse to chose a new name after being sired. It's like saying farewell to one's human self, I guess. And while Angel, Spike, Darla and countless others abandoned their human names after becoming "nasty pointy-bitey ones", Xander's and Willow's Wishverse vampiric alter egos continue to use their real (human) names for some reason. I wonder why?

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Another thing's never occured to me until recently. It's some kind of rule for the vampires in the Buffyverse to chose a new name after being sired. It's like saying farewell to one's human self, I guess. And while Angel, Spike, Darla and countless others abandoned their human names after becoming "nasty pointy-bitey ones", Xander's and Willow's Wishverse vampiric alter egos continue to use their real (human) names for some reason. I wonder why?

Maybe they just didn't have time, they'd only been vamped for 3 years? 

[illdoc]

Didn't Angel say something like "Darla was a name that didn't even exist until a hundred years after her birth, so the Master must have given it to her"?

[Halting Hex]

Yes, Spike's name derives from his preferred method of torture.  Perhaps Willow hasn't figured out a cool way to name herself "Matches", as yet?

She's a literal "fiery redhead"!  But how do you say that in a name?

[lembergwatcher]

Could've been called Ignis which (IIRC) is Latin for "fire". Or Rossa ("red" in Italian). Or Lilith (is said to have had red hair according to Jewish mythology). Or Cleopatra (is said to have used henna to bring out the redness of her hair).

[Halting Hex]

"Lilith" is good.  Reminiscent of her human name, and Jewish, too.

Spoiler

Plus, you know, the Lilith Fair music festival was not exactly lacking in "kinda gay" female fans.

 

[mmecorday]

Cordelia bounced back quickly after her impalement. I guess the rebar missed all her internal organs.

[lembergwatcher]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:34 PM, mmecorday said:

I guess the rebar missed all her internal organs.

Seems like Buffy's durability and regeneration (key Slayer characteristics) were somehow passed on to Cordelia. Dunno why did this happen though. 

Spoiler

Maybe the "Powers That Be" already had some plans for Cordy's "championship" back than.