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S02.E10: Every Potato Has a Receipt 2018.06.29

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YAY!!!  

Season 3 in Vegas, Baby!   So silly, but listening to Starship when they rode the bus out of town actually brought tears to my eyes.  I love these crazies!  

Plus, I'm an 80's gal, so it's required that I get all Verklepmt about 10 times per show.  *LOL*

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The look on Carmen's face when Bash interrupts Rhonda and Cupcake's wedding, just broke my heart. Poor girl :( I was hoping so much for them, despite the heavy subtext that maybe 

Spoiler

Bash and Florian were actually a couple? I never would have gotten that subtext from last season, it actually dawned on me after watching season 2 and reading posts on here.)

 

Also, re: Sam and Ruth, I wanted this to happen so much. It made so much more sense to me than Sam and Rhonda, or Sam and anyone else of those girls. 

 

Oh, and Arthie and Yolanda? I ship that. I soooo ship that. 

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So, Sam/Ruth might be a thing for season three. I guess I can see it. I think Ruth does do a great job directing. It's a good side job for her, and her and Sam work well together.

I think they're all but saying aloud that Bash and Florian were a couple. They're really shoving the subtext hard this season. I know they've been hinting at it for a while, especially season 1's finale, but they have made it pretty clear why Carmen's going to get her heart broken when Bash doesn't reciprocate her feelings. Speaking of, Carmen, girl, you deserve all the happiness, but it's not with Bash. Maybe this is leading up to a good storyline for her next season.

But yeah, Bash marrying Rhonda is definitely not out of any feelings on his end, or hers. So this is going to end badly for the both of them. His grief over losing Florian has led to this rash decision, and Rhonda doesn't seem to want to get married anyway.

Arthie/Yolanda? Hell to the yes. They're going to get a solid storyline for next season. Though why the show has Arthie and Yolanda's sexuality storyline more blatant and open while Bash is still in the closet is what has me a bit confused. 

Keith and Cherry are great together.

The final wrestling scene with Debbie, Sheila, and Carmen vs Kurt and Chico was badass. That was a brilliant idea to boost ratings and deal with the possible suing issue. I LOVE the two sides working together in the ring.

I really wanted Carmen to win the crown, though.

They've set up a lot of good storylines with the supporting characters. Carmen, Yolanda, Arthie, and Rhonda, in particular. 

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Obviously Florian died of AIDS-related pneumonia, thus the "decontamination" of the house, but I thought he & Bash had a physical relationship.  Which I thought then prompted Bash to practically force Britannica to marry him, in his own brand of denial.  Marry a woman = he's not gay anymore. 

I really like Yolanda added to the crew.  

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Sam and Ruth is icky. Sam has largely been abusive to her (and people in general) and is not of a nice person, even if he's a complex enough character to also have redeeming features. I hope the writers realize this and it's going to play out tragically rather than as an endgame romance.

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Thanks for all the thoughts on Florian/Bash—glad others are as unclear as I am. I couldn’t remember the nature of their relationship from season one and figured B loved F but hadn’t told him or consummated it? I did pick up the AIDS reference though. Poor B/F. I wish B hadn’t pretended to be in love with Britannica, especially after she confessed she wasn’t in love with him, but I guess there wouldn’t be a juicy storyline about it for season 3 then.

Anyway: LOVED this season, even more than the last.

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2 hours ago, TheNewJanBrady said:

Thanks for all the thoughts on Florian/Bash—glad others are as unclear as I am. I couldn’t remember the nature of their relationship from season one and figured B loved F but hadn’t told him or consummated it? I did pick up the AIDS reference though. Poor B/F. I wish B hadn’t pretended to be in love with Britannica, especially after she confessed she wasn’t in love with him, but I guess there wouldn’t be a juicy storyline about it for season 3 then.

It's possible that maybe Bash never actually made a move on Florian and this guilt is due to him not doing so. It's fun to speculate until we eventually get the answer (if we get the answer, as I don't think GLOW has been renewed for a third season).

Either way, Rhonda is going to either be pissed or heartbroken, or likely both, when she does fall in love with him and he can't provide her with that same love. It does make it worse with him lying about his feelings, which is going to get her hopes up. 

I am surprised that nobody seems to actually know about Bash's sexuality, so I wonder who the first person will be. Yolanda or Arthie, perhaps?

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I saw it as Bash saving Rhonda from a superfan who would have been legally connected to her. But he does seem to be pretty closeted.

It was probably less of an issue for two women to be together because two men together pretty much brought up the possibility of AIDS in the late 80's. 

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This was the first time we met Cupcake, right? I remember Sheila's superfan, but I couldn't place Cupcake. If he wasn't shown in a prior episode, he should have been so the proposal wouldn't have come out of nowhere. The show did a good job w/ bringing up the contract term that said the TV station owned the characters and that was from episode 2.1. 

Even though it's not going to work out, I'm glad Bash is officially married to Britannica. Sure, his name's not on the marriage license, and hers isn't her real name, but at least they now won't have to worry about immigration checking on whether the marriage is legitimate. 

I know, these are quibbles. I loved the season. I'm hoping we see Justine in Vegas, and more of Yolanda-Arthie, Sam-Ruth (but not like that - I just really enjoy the dynamic between them), Tamme-Debbie, Debbie-Bash, Malibu-Fortune Cookie (please, please, please keep them as roommates), and Sheila-Ruth. Oh, and a real storyline for Carmen aside from coming up w/ wrestling moves. I'd also like to see more of a rapprochement between Ruth and Debbie. All this to mean I really, really, really want a Season 3.

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I love this show so much. It is so great at mixing the camp of wrestling with real emotional stories about these characters. As uncomfortable as things sometimes are between Ruth and Debbie, it also feels very real.

I really hope they get a third season, because there’s so much potential with all these characters. Arthie and Yolanda are blissed out now, but what happens when Arthie’s parents find out? The tension between Sam and Ruth will continue (though I hope they continue to work well together) and Debbie’s going to struggle with being separated from her son. 

And poor Bash - I don’t think he and Florian had a romantic relationship because I think Bash is in some serious denial. And Florian’s disappearance and subsequent death brought a bunch of feelings to the surface (that Bash was in love with him) that Bash can’t handle, so he throws himself into a marriage with Rhonda that will end up being a disaster. Somehow I suspect that Carmen is going to be the first person to figure out what Bash’s deal is (well, technically second since I think Bash’s family butler knows the score. Bash’s heartbreak over Florian’s estrangement was evident when they talked).

Edited by Kostgard
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Fun finale, while setting up some interesting ideas for a potential season three (it better happen, Netflix!)  They weren't able to save the show on television, but found a way to make it to Vegas!  I can only imagine what is going to go down.

While I'm glad Rhonda won't have to end up being married to someone she barely knows, I do think her and Bash is going to end badly.  It seems pretty clear that Bash is likely closeted, and has a lot of repressed emotions that are going to cause issues.  And poor Carmen was clearly heartbroken as well.

Still not sure if they're going to go there with Ruth and Sam for good, or will this just be a phase.  As much as I enjoy their relationship, I feel like anything romantic will end badly for them.

I do hope Yolanda and Arthie work out.  I wouldn't be surprised if Arthie's parents get really upset about it, judging from what was said about them in the past.

Hope they find some way to get Justine back in.  Maybe when she turns 18, she decides to go back (or to Vegas)?

A few minor issues (mainly how characters like Carmen and Cherry seemed to get sideline this season), but overall, this is really becoming one of my favorite comedies.  And it is a rare one where I like almost all of the characters.  Really hope Netflix keeps this going.

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Loved the look on Sam’s face when Rosalie mentioned Justine’s tuition. Chavo Guerrero who played Chico was the girls’ real life trainer. Unless I’m mistaken, “Cupcake” was one if the kids from the movie “Sandlot.”

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I always think of “Cupcake” as the pizza guy from the vampire “Bad Blood” episode of The X-Files.

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The optimistic side of me says that Sam and Ruth can be quite sweet together. They both have their issues but maybe together they would become better versions of themselves. 

The more realistic side of me says Sam is an asshole and Ruth is a people pleaser and that is definitely a dynamic that can lead to unhappiness. There have been instances where Sam has been a better man because of Ruth's influence but it shouldn't be Ruth's job to make Sam a better person.  Finally and maybe most importantly Sam is Ruth's boss. Ruth loves her job and there are just so many things that can go wrong in that situation.

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5 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

The more realistic side of me says Sam is an asshole and Ruth is a people pleaser and that is definitely a dynamic that can lead to unhappiness.

I was thinking the same thing. Right now Sam's worst traits come out when he gets defensive (which doesn't take much). That combined with Ruth's inability to call people on their shit would make for a disastrous relationship. (And that's ignoring the age issue and employment situation). I could see the two growing to the point where they have a healthy relationship of some sort. (Romantic, platonic, business partners, etc...) One interesting thing is that Justine invited Ruth to the theater and to family dinner. Was that just because she likes Ruth, or is she a shipper?

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Okay, let me get this straight. The network has the rights on the characters and the format, but they decided to cancel the show and not to sell the these rights to anyone. They are just losing money on it, because Ruth didn't sleep with the network boss.

This is beyond the realm of pettiness: it's sheer stupidity. 
 

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5 hours ago, Zaku said:

Okay, let me get this straight. The network has the rights on the characters and the format, but they decided to cancel the show and not to sell the these rights to anyone. They are just losing money on it, because Ruth didn't sleep with the network boss.

I've actually heard stories of networks doing just that. They don't want to look incompetent if another network is able to make it work. I mean, how would Tom Grant justify his decision to cancel the show if it made a ton of money in syndication?

Edited by Captain Carrot
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Great finale, I really enjoyed this season.  Definitely no sophomore jinks for Glow.  Even though I no longer watch wrestling, I was initially drawn to this show because it was a "wrestling" show.  I enjoy that aspect greatly but it's the characters and the writing that keeps me coming back. 

I was surprised that Bash didn't volunteer sooner to marry Britannica.  He seems like the kind of guy who would do that, even if was open about being gay just because he'd want to help her. 

On the subject of Bash, I could easily have seen him as a wrestling announcer in the 80s and early-90s.

Chico was played by Chavo Guerrero Jr., the wrestler who has trained the actresses on how to wrestle.  He's still listed as a technical advisor in the credits.

Edited by benteen
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I LOVE this show so much.

I'm also wondering about Bash though, because I couldn't quite figure out if he's actually gay. I think so, right? Just deeply in denial? I feel like they could have made that more clear, because his reaction in the gay club could be either panic from his own denial OR just a shocked and uncomfortable reaction at realizing Florian was gay. 

I don't think they were a couple or anything, right? Just super close friends since childhood? 

I am assuming that he must be closeted, since that's definitely where the most story is with him, going forward. Even so, I think maybe a flashback with him and Florian or something could have made things clearer. 

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Bash also seemed to have this identification with wrestlers from such an early age. There was an implication that his love of wrestlers was his outlet for something he's not ready to deal with.

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19 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I've actually heard stories of networks doing just that. They don't want to look incompetent if another network is able to make it work. I mean, how would Tom Grant justify his decision to cancel the show if it made a ton of money in syndication?

If the network owned the show and the rights, and stood to make a good amount of money from a syndication deal, they would look incompetent in refusing to sell the show into syndication.  I mean, syndication is just another way for a show to be distributed outside the network system to many different markets around the country it might not otherwise be available in.  It doesn’t really say anything about the network that originally aired the show as a show can easily be unpopular in one market, but very successful in another. 

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I generally don’t get emotional during tv shows, but when Ruth found out she was going to win the crown and ziplined in? I got a little weepy. They took us through such an emotional journey with her this season, it was well earned. 

They’ve written every character extremely well, that you genuinely care for them. I thought the cameraman would turn out to be some douchebag who would use Ruth for some sex and that’s it, but glad they avoided that angle. 

I’m not a fan of putting Sam/Ruth together as he seems more like a surrogate father figure, but I have trust they won’t make it creepy. 

Bash is clearly gay. He cleaned the house due to fearing AIDS. 

 

Last song of the season was perfection. Great closing montage. 

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I just all this time have thought Bash was straight up gay. He may use code talking to his family's butler (and the family butler understood the code), and to the outside world, but I felt for sure Florian was his live-in bf, that he said "butler' as a cover story, that they had a fight or something when Florian ran off, but it wasn't about a bad check. If Florian had been just his butler Bash wouldn't have been so heartbroken that he was gone. Maybe Florian needed money, a check DID bounce, and it was a check for medical expenses but Florian didn't tell Bash. Whatever the plot details, that was the reaction of a man whose love interest had disappeared. Then the montage of lonely man - that's the guy whose husband or bf had just died and he was grieving but also angry and freaked out. It's purely speculation, but if Bash turns out to be HIV positive down the line, we'll know. Also, it would mean Florian wasn't faithful, or they brought others into their relationship, or came into the relationship without knowing. I think he fully jumped into the closet with Brittanica, but it was also because he was so damn lonely, and now he'd have someone.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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I just all this time have thought Bash was straight up gay. He may use code talking to his family's butler (and the family butler understood the code), and to the outside world, but I felt for sure Florian was his live-in bf, that he said "butler' as a cover story, that they had a fight or something when Florian ran off, but it wasn't about a bad check. If Florian had been just his butler Bash wouldn't have been so heartbroken that he was gone.

My understanding was that Bash and Florian had been friends for years before he became Bash’s butler.    So while I agree there could be more to the relationship, Bash has never tried to portray their relationship as strictly professional.  

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23 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I just all this time have thought Bash was straight up gay. He may use code talking to his family's butler (and the family butler understood the code), and to the outside world, but I felt for sure Florian was his live-in bf, that he said "butler' as a cover story, that they had a fight or something when Florian ran off, but it wasn't about a bad check. If Florian had been just his butler Bash wouldn't have been so heartbroken that he was gone. Maybe Florian needed money, a check DID bounce, and it was a check for medical expenses but Florian didn't tell Bash. Whatever the plot details, that was the reaction of a man whose love interest had disappeared. Then the montage of lonely man - that's the guy whose husband or bf had just died and he was grieving but also angry and freaked out. It's purely speculation, but if Bash turns out to be HIV positive down the line, we'll know. Also, it would mean Florian wasn't faithful, or they brought others into their relationship, or came into the relationship without knowing. I think he fully jumped into the closet with Brittanica, but it was also because he was so damn lonely, and now he'd have someone.

 

I don’t think Bash is truly aware/accepts his orientation and wasn’t in a romantic/physical relationship with Florian based on his reaction to discovering that the bar where Florian would hang out was a gay bar. I think if he were gay and aware of it and/or in a romantic relationship with Florian his reaction to “Shenanigans” would have been much different.

I think Bash is so deeply closeted he can’t even privately acknowledge the truth to himself. But discovering things about Florian (things he probably knew deep down but refused to acknowledge) brought things to a head - Florian hangs out at a gay bar. What does that say about me?? Florian died of that gay disease! Scrub it out! Scrub it out of the house so you don’t have to face it! (Yes, part of the cleaning was probably AIDS-panic, but I think Bash was also trying to scrub the gay away). Then he has to face that he’s devastated at Florian’s death. But instead of asking himself why, he throws himself into a marriage with Rhonda, declaring that he loves her even though he’s barely ever looked at her. He just saw a convenient out and took it. It will surely blow up in his face.

I didn’t pick up on the “Bash might be gay” thing last season, though I suppose I should have because the clues were there and I did wonder why this young, single, handsome man who was surrounded by scantily-clad beautiful young women never hit on or even really looked at any of them. At the time I just thought he was super-nerdy about wrestling and his nerdy enthusiasm was overriding hormones, but perhaps there was nothing to override.

Edited by Kostgard
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7 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

I don’t think Bash is truly aware/accepts his orientation and wasn’t in a romantic/physical relationship with Florian based on his reaction to discovering that the bar where Florian would hang out was a gay bar. I think if he were gay and aware of it and/or in a romantic relationship with Florian his reaction to “Shenanigans” would have been much different.

I think Bash is so deeply closeted he can’t even privately acknowledge the truth to himself. But discovering things about Florian (things he probably knew deep down but refused to acknowledge) brought things to a head - Florian hangs out at a gay bar. What does that say about me?? Florian died of that gay disease! Scrub it out! Scrub it out of the house so you don’t have to face it! (Yes, part of the cleaning was probably AIDS-panic, but I think Bash was also trying to scrub the gay away). Then he has to face that he’s devastated at Florian’s death. But instead of asking himself why, he throws himself into a marriage with Rhonda, declaring that he loves her even though he’s barely ever looked at her. He just saw a convenient out and took it. It will surely blow up in his face.

I didn’t pick up on the “Bash might be gay” thing last season, though I suppose I should have because the clues were there and I did wonder why this young, single, handsome man who was surrounded by scantily-clad beautiful young women never hit on or even really looked at any of them. At the time I just thought he was super-nerdy about wrestling and his nerdy enthusiasm was overriding hormones, but perhaps there was nothing to override.

When Bash was showing the wrestlers around his place, I was under the impression that he had wild sex parties and the girls of GLOW were just an average group of women. Then again, at the end of season 1, he put the glitter on as eye shadow. Then again, I think the original announcer for GLOW did the same.

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There are dozens of possibles for Bash's character and sexuality.  Until the writers clarify it for us, we can spin out 427 different scenarios.  Hopefully we'll have a 3rd season so we can get the lowdown.  I also hope that Justine heads to Vegas when she turns 18.  She could do PR for them.   

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Just finished this and enjoy this show overall, even though I dislike wrestling and never saw the original GLOW though, technically, think I would have been in the age range. Even as a kid, I never got into any of the '80s wrestling stuff. Thought it was stupid even when I was 7-8, which is why we didn't watch this at all until relatively recently, finishing season 1 just before season 2 was released. 

My big question is ... If KTLA "owns" the characters, how are they taking them on the road to Vegas? Stage productions would almost certainly still be out of bounds without the rights. Also, as someone else mentioned, KTLA cancelling the show but not wanting to sell their rights to someone else makes ZERO financial sense. A syndication deal would likely land a small station pretty big bucks, even if they didn't air the show themselves. 

The real GLOW, from my brief Wiki read, was set in Las Vegas, so that gets us there, but, again, hard to get past the idea that IF YOU DON'T OWN THE CHARACTERS YOU CAN'T PERFORM THEM.

I'm also a little confused about Bash's arc. I mean, obviously, he's a closeted gay man dealing with the death of his friend/love interest, and his fascination with wrestling is all part of that awakening. But like others I'm very confused about whether we are supposed to believe he and Florian had an actual relationship, or Bash was just pining for him.  I sort of thought the former, until I saw the picture of them together as kids, which doesn't read lovers to me. I'm not sure what the show WANTS us to think, not least because even watching Season 1 relatively recently, I admit I barely remembered Florian. I don't really think I'll go back and watch to see if the groundwork was laid, but this seems like a second season storyline that, don't get me wrong, could be important and work for the time period, but doesn't seem to track all that well. 

Now, I'm all for subtext, but this show doesn't seem to be doing that on any other level, spelling things out VERY clearly (see this shows lesbian storyline, as well as my nitpicks below), and the consequences here if he and Florian were romantic partners are pretty huge to the plot now that he's married another main character, vs just a closeted character seeing a friend/crush boldly come out and then be quickly felled in the most terrifying and final way possible.

Loathe the idea of Sam and Ruth getting together. I mean, Ruth is a terrible person, which I think the show has tried to backtrack on, but sleeping with your best friend's husband, twice, just because, right after she had a baby is next left awful. Debbie breaking Ruth's leg while high on coke doesn't make them "even," which I think is the show's perspective. I don't think Debbie is all that great either, nor in the right to resort to physical violence, and wasn't cheering that she did, but the whole "get over it" mentality the show seems to have for "poor Ruth's" transgression doesn't work for me. At all. 

Also I hate, hate, HATE the angry women burns all her husband's stuff or sells all her worldly goods for no money or some other completely bat-crap crazy overreaction to a divorce. In the real world, money IS important. Sure, sell the bed. Fine. But the wholesale fire sale of everything, at a time when they're struggling financially, strains not just the bonds of credulity, but also practicality. Like, most people know they need dishes and chairs and if you sell all of these, you'll have to just get new ones you can't afford. And what was supposed to be the big reveal that she kept the baby's room intact was incredibly, blindly obvious in a way that disappointed me in the show. Unless that was Debbie's way of telling us she was suicidal—and I didn't get that AT ALL—the entire thing was both dumb and then completely ignored by the show moving forward.

Lastly, as much as the show gets the cheesy '80s ensembles and general aesthetic right on so many levels, the #metoo plot line was sooo obviously a 2018 voice in a 1985 world, meant to make Maron's character a hero. The entire thing totally took me out of the show.

Edited by STOPSHOUTING
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3 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Lastly, as much as the show gets the cheesy '80s ensembles and general aesthetic right on so many levels, the #metoo plot line was sooo obviously a 2018 voice in a 1985 world, meant to make Maron's character a hero. The entire thing totally took me out of the show.

From an interview w/ Allison Brie and Betty Gilpin (I believe it's in the media thread), the show was written and filmed prior to #metoo and the Weinstein allegations coming out.

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4 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

My big question is ... If KTLA "owns" the characters, how are they taking them on the road to Vegas? Stage productions would almost certainly still be out of bounds without the rights. Also, as someone else mentioned, KTLA cancelling the show but not wanting to sell their rights to someone else makes ZERO financial sense. A syndication deal would likely land a small station pretty big bucks, even if they didn't air the show themselves. 

The real GLOW, from my brief Wiki read, was set in Las Vegas, so that gets us there, but, again, hard to get past the idea that IF YOU DON'T OWN THE CHARACTERS YOU CAN'T PERFORM THEM.

 

 

 

Glen told them they can keep performing their live shows for their fans. They just can't sell them to another network. I took it as Tom Grant being petty. He doesn't care about them performing the characters.  He just doesn't want Ruth or the show being on tv anywhere.  If they go after him for it, he can probably say they can't do the characters at all. 

Executives could do whatever they wanted back then.  Heck even with the Hollywood fallout this past year, they are still doing it to the women in country music. They can't speak up in groups like the actresses because country radio already won't sign or play them.  The guy who groped Taylor Swift already has another radio job. The original GLOW was cancelled at the height of its fame because Pia Zadora(sp?) didn't like her husband being around all the women.  Once he kicked them out of his hotel, they couldn't find another place to do the show.  No place to perform then no tv show.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a future storyline where they mention that Tom leaves or gets fired.  The new head then lets them sell the show or he puts it back on air. 

Edited by Stuffy
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21 minutes ago, Stuffy said:

Glen told them they can keep performing their live shows for their fans. They just can't sell them to another network. I took it as Tom Grant being petty. He doesn't care about them performing the characters.  He just doesn't want Ruth or the show being on tv anywhere.  If they go after him for it, he can probably say they can't do the characters at all. 

 

A live show done for free—they made a big deal about how they were pulling people off streets to get an audience, not making money on tickets—vs a Vegas headling gig for profit is a wildly different.

Edited by STOPSHOUTING

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2 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

A live show done for free—they made a big deal about how they were pulling people off streets to get an audience, not making money on tickets—vs a Vegas headling gig is a wildly different.

That was during season one when they were just trying to get the pilot done. Once the show got on the air, they got some fans.  Enough that the women charged money for autographs and pictures to raise some extra money for themselves. 

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18 hours ago, Stuffy said:

That was during season one when they were just trying to get the pilot done. Once the show got on the air, they got some fans.  Enough that the women charged money for autographs and pictures to raise some extra money for themselves. 

Still not comparable to a Vegas headline show that they are hoping to sell thousands of tickets for.  I also was wondering how this was going to work, but then realized it's a TV show so it doesn't matter.  I just hope it gets renewed and we can see it!!  I thoroughly enjoyed this season. 

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On 6/30/2018 at 6:36 AM, Landlord said:

Oh, and Arthie and Yolanda? I ship that. I soooo ship that. 

I'm not a shipper, but I do like where they've gone with that.

On 6/30/2018 at 9:31 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Arthie/Yolanda? Hell to the yes. They're going to get a solid storyline for next season. Though why the show has Arthie and Yolanda's sexuality storyline more blatant and open while Bash is still in the closet is what has me a bit confused.

Arthie's story is an awakening, and embracing who she is. From what I take of his story, Bash has never truly awakened and has shied away from his true self - his embracing his nature is a longer, more difficult story.

On 7/3/2018 at 12:23 PM, Samsnee said:

Bash is clearly gay. He cleaned the house due to fearing AIDS.

During the 80's, straight people in fear of AIDS would (among other things) refuse to eat off the same (washed and cleaned) dinnerware, refuse to touch or be touched by a person with AIDS without sterile gloves, and as was implied in the phone call, funeral parlors would refuse to take their bodies. And some doctors would refuse to treat them. So while I think Bash is gay, the cleansing of the house isn't, in my experience, evidence of that.

I love that they're going to Vegas (more glitter, more show), and that they've been "rescued" by a strip joint owner. Not sure why I like that, it just amuses me.

I do not like wrestling, and almost didn't watch this show because of it. I'm still not a fan of the "art" - but I am a fan of this show, which I've enjoyed every minute of.

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22 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

From an interview w/ Allison Brie and Betty Gilpin (I believe it's in the media thread), the show was written and filmed prior to #metoo and the Weinstein allegations coming out.

No matter when this was filmed, this was unquestionably the show's #metoo arc, even if you don't give it that name. And instead of telling us anything about Ruth, or even much about Debbie, though I think her reaction was spot on and realistic, it tried to make a hero out of the usually creepy himself, Sam. The entire season was so little about Ruth at all…She just let stuff happen to and around her.

I didn't like this season as much as the first and I read a Vanity Fair article yesterday that really clarified why for me ... This season this show that is nominally about a group of women, focused mainly on ... the men. Bash and Sam got the big storylines, Debbie's storyline was almost entirely about her ex and Ruth, our main protagonist, was relegated mostly to dodging grope-y execs or doing will-she, won't-she with others. 

The stories of the women themselves got sooo much less attention than last year. Marc Maron is fine in this role, but I simply tolerate him. I don't need to see more of his jerk persona, nor do I need a season-long redemption arc for him. I think exploring the AIDS panic of the '80s is great, but the focus on Bash does the women a disservice. We even saw the men invade the women's space more directly; appearing in their wrestling show. The only really good man the show even has is Keith, and I'd love to see more of he and Cherry. I think they were sorely lacking on this season, especially after Cherry was so central to season one.

Even the bus ride to Vegas that ended the series focused almost exclusively on couples. Is that what this show is supposed to be about now? Romance? Because I couldn't be less  interested. I mean, I don't hate seeing their personal relationships, but I'm much more invested in the women's relationships to each other, and think that's what made this show special in season one, thus somewhat less so this year. Best ep of the season, to me, was seeing the push-pull between "Welfare Queen" and her son; his mix of pride in his mother's performance and embarrassment for the character she was playing. Give me an episode like that about every one of the ladies instead of 6 on Sam and Bash. 

Edited by STOPSHOUTING
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9 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:
22 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

From an interview w/ Allison Brie and Betty Gilpin (I believe it's in the media thread), the show was written and filmed prior to #metoo and the Weinstein allegations coming out.

No matter when this was filmed, this was unquestionably the show's #metoo arc, even if you don't give it that name. And instead of telling us anything about Ruth, or even much about Debbie, though I think her reaction was spot on and realistic, it tried to make a hero out of the usually creepy himself, Sam. The entire season was so little about Ruth at all…She just let stuff happen to and around her.

Sure, we're viewing it through our current filter, so it undoubtedly reads as a #metoo arc. Doesn't make it any less real for the 80's time period (which I can personally attest to from my own experiences then, which were very similar in most respects). Imo it did tell us something about Ruth - as much as she does let stuff happen to her, and is a people pleaser to an excruciating degree, she got the hell out of there. So she does have a line where she will stand up for herself.

Sam's a multi-faceted character, whose growth in these two seasons I've appreciated a great deal. I don't find him creepy as much as an asshole most of the time - but I liked Sam's reaction. Was it heroic? I didn't think so - Sam was already pretty damned cool and caring about Ruth back in the abortion episode.  Would he have reacted differently if it had been someone other than Ruth. Quite possibly. But since it was Ruth - it seemed spot on to me. Does it make him a hero? I don't think so - sure he damaged the car (anonymously as it turned out), but he didn't confront the bastard and win the day.

But then I don't mind having the men in the story also have complicated and interesting character arcs. I'm not sure I agree that the women got less time - I found them more interesting and fleshed out than last season. I didn't feel that any of the male storylines took away from the women, but dovetailed into their stories. Mileage varies.

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48 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Sam's a multi-faceted character, whose growth in these two seasons I've appreciated a great deal. I don't find him creepy as much as an asshole most of the time - but I liked Sam's reaction. Was it heroic? I didn't think so - Sam was already pretty damned cool and caring about Ruth back in the abortion episode.  Would he have reacted differently if it had been someone other than Ruth. Quite possibly. But since it was Ruth - it seemed spot on to me. Does it make him a hero? I don't think so - sure he damaged the car (anonymously as it turned out), but he didn't confront the bastard and win the day.

I agree.  I also really appreciated that when Ruth rebuffed him during the kiss that he didn't immediately go back to jerk mode.  I think he realized he has true feelings for her and, despite her being in a relationship with someone else, he wants her to be happy.  That's why he let her co-direct and then win the crown in the finale.  I hope he still keeps a lot of his Samness.  IRL I would not want to be around him at all, but on this show I find him kind of funny. 

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Not following the complaint that it’s a “metoo” story somehow anachronistically set in the 1980s.

Rape and sexual harassment, especially in the entertainment industry, assuredly existed in the 1980s.

Jerky, misanthropic, insecure directors who still understood that the blame lies with the harasser, not the victim, surely existed in the 1980s. 

Sadly, any rape story is inherently timeless. 

So anyway. There was a brief line about what would be done with Florian’s remains, and the fact that some funeral homes wouldn’t even handle AIDS cases, and it reminded me of this story:

https://www.arktimes.com/arkansas/ruth-coker-burks-the-cemetery-angel/Content?oid=3602959

(Good luck getting through this one without tearing up.)

I think that line, and the bit with Bash having his house essentially fire-bombed, were meant as reminders that this is still the 1980s and AIDS is still basically a death sentence.

(I know everyone’s read on this has been different, but I assumed Bash had been intimate with Florian, and the house-cleaning and proposal to Britannica were desperate flailings of someone who was terrified he’d been infected, and who was rocketing headfirst into denial.)

Edited by kieyra
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33 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Not following the complaint that it’s a “metoo” story somehow anachronistically set in the 1980s.

Rape and sexual harassment, especially in the entertainment industry, assuredly existed in the 1980s.

Jerky, misanthropic, insecure directors who still understood that the blame lies with the harasser, not the victim, surely existed in the 1980s. 

Sadly, any rape story is inherently timeless. 

 

The arguement is definitely not that such things didn’t happen in the 1980s, duh. It’s that everyone, sans perhaps Debbie, is so outraged about it. That’s the anachronism. This is a normal and mostly accepted part of being in show business. The idea Ruth, a struggling actress, was shocked by it? Give me a break. And they all would have deemed Ruth hysterical for running away, not leapt to her defense. Like Debbie said, you don’t have to sleep with them, but you definitely have to let him think you might.

Particularly Sam, who seemed super OK with perving on his own actresses. The guy we’ve met? No way he’d act that way. Maybe Keith, but it wasn’t a credible character trait for Sam.

It’s an age old story, but they reacted to it in a way that felt very much like today; not 1985.

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Sexual harrassment and the casting couch were assuredly not taken for granted, nor normalized (in the sense of it wasn't shocking) nor accepted in the 1980s. There was no mechanism to address it, so people like Debbie worked out ways to manage it, because if they didn't, it became the woman's problem because that's how it was systemically. It was not "accepted and normalized" so much as "commonplace" which isn't the same thing, and there wasn't a lot people felt they could do about it. However, it was not "accepted" by decent people or even by otherwise unevolved but non-predatory types like Sam.

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7 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

The arguement is definitely not that such things didn’t happen in the 1980s, duh. It’s that everyone, sans perhaps Debbie, is so outraged about it. That’s the anachronism. This is a normal and mostly accepted part of being in show business. The idea Ruth, a struggling actress, was shocked by it? Give me a break. And they all would have deemed Ruth hysterical for running away, not leapt to her defense. Like Debbie said, you don’t have to sleep with them, but you definitely have to let him think you might.

Particularly Sam, who seemed super OK with perving on his own actresses. The guy we’ve met? No way he’d act that way. Maybe Keith, but it wasn’t a credible character trait for Sam.

It’s an age old story, but they reacted to it in a way that felt very much like today; not 1985.

 

Well, the only thing I can say is that the women I knew would tell others and give each other warnings about being alone with certain men. None of us shrugged or criticized any other women, so far as I experienced. I received and gave a number of those warnings. On the other hand, there were a few women who'd go along with it.

At the time I took it for granted that the men who didn't harass knew and didn't think anything about. However, I also knew one man who completely shunned his mentor after finding out he was a sexual harasser. My previous respect for him (the one who shunned) went sky high, and remains there to this day.

It may feel like today, but that's because it's not a new story - on any level. The only thing different today is the wide publicity and harassers getting consequences for their actions.

Edited by Clanstarling
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Exactly. It was commonplace, but not "taken for granted". It was still upsetting, shocking, and distressing when it happened. There is no woman who found herself in that situation who was blase' about it.  Debbie had - or thought she had - worked out a way to manage it, to have it both ways. But the idea that when an actress or working woman found herself in that situation she was all, "oh here is that common thing everybody accepts that happens all the time so I'll just pull out my tried and true coping strategy and move through it" is not how it was. 

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So, let me get this straight. You are saying the fact they depicted Ruth distraught for the attempted rape is a "#metoo plot line"? Are you serious? So, what is the implication here? That men had been having a rightfully free access to sex (even if the woman didn't consent) until the SJWs ruined the fun for them?

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3 hours ago, Zaku said:

So, let me get this straight. You are saying the fact they depicted Ruth distraught for the attempted rape is a "#metoo plot line"? Are you serious? So, what is the implication here? That men had been having a rightfully free access to sex (even if the woman didn't consent) until the SJWs ruined the fun for them?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Word for word. ?

The internet is fun! 

I was alive in the 1980s, but I was a kid. I do know what a women working in sports TV in the 1990s was like, though, and the number of times my (all male) bosses "joked" about how much of a raise I'd need to sleep with so-and-so for access is part of what makes me highly skeptical of the storyline.

 

11 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Exactly. It was commonplace, but not "taken for granted". It was still upsetting, shocking, and distressing when it happened. There is no woman who found herself in that situation who was blase' about it.  Debbie had - or thought she had - worked out a way to manage it, to have it both ways. But the idea that when an actress or working woman found herself in that situation she was all, "oh here is that common thing everybody accepts that happens all the time so I'll just pull out my tried and true coping strategy and move through it" is not how it was. 

I disagree with none of this. I don't think Ruth would or should be OK with it happening…I just didn't think she'd be that surprised. Heck, the entire set-up, even before she knew it was dinner in a private room, should have set off all her actress alarm bells. Take a friend or co-worker, or whatever other protective, but non-offensive, maneuver she could come up with.

I said it was a disgusting fact of life. That doesn't equal acceptance, or say it wasn't unsettling and upsetting, and definitely to be avoided if possible. Industries of ALL types had private lists circulated amongst female employees of who to avoid, and client code words to warn other women of the leches and the creeps. Heck, they often still do. Most women with any success, would have had a coping strategy, a la Debbie, and most men in positions of power within the industry, even if they weren't like that themselves, WHICH SAM HAS ALREADY SHOWED US HE WAS, would still be much more, 'Yeah, that's the dirty side of the business,' not all, 'Well, I never.' In a realistic scenario, I think the odds are they would have been way more angry that Ruth offended their boss and endangered the show. 

Sam has been commenting on all his actresses looks and " f-ablity" since the pilot, including Ruth's. He's demeaned and used them, including attempting to sleep with his own daughter at one point. Now this guy is shocked and appalled an exec would use his position to get one of "his girls" into a hotel room? For real? 

The casting couch was an open secret in Hollywood pretty much from the minute Hollywood existed and, heck, before, to Broadway and other theatre. There's a reason actress was synonymous with "whore" for hundreds of years…Not because actresses WERE whores, but because men in power EXPECTED them to be. 

Look, it's cool to agree to disagree with whether that element of the show worked for you or not. I get it. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind there. But saying I felt the handling of the scenario was anachronistic to the time is NOT AT ALL the same as endorsing the behavior. 

Bottom line: I didn't buy the way the plot line played out. I didn't need Sam to be Ruth's knight and shining armor, and turn them into a will-they, won't-they working couple. I think it was a huge misstep for the series. Other's disagree. That's cool.

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