S02.E12: Postpartum

[Anela]

From what I've read of the thread so far, I'm the only one who thinks she isn't crazy. He came up with the whole thing, and destroyed their lives. 

[Clanstarling]

6 minutes ago, Anela said:

From what I've read of the thread so far, I'm the only one who thinks she isn't crazy. He came up with the whole thing, and destroyed their lives. 

I don't think she's crazy in that she's responding as one of us might to the situation - on the other hand, it's been some time now, and her honest horror may have become a bit pathological by this point.

[Empress1]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

From what I've read of the thread so far, I'm the only one who thinks she isn't crazy. He came up with the whole thing, and destroyed their lives. 

You must not have read my posts. :) Hers is the only sane reaction from a wife that we've seen, in my opinion. I wish they'd introduced her sooner - surely not all the Commander's wives were homemakers before the fall. Shit - I'm an avid reader (just picked up something I've had on hold at the library for literally months), and someone stripping me of the right to read, leaving aside ALL the other bullshit women have to deal with in this society, would have me screaming that I hated him every single day. Like, if I had all the rights I have now except reading and writing was forbidden? I WOULD DRAG LAWMAKERS FOR FILTH.

[Anela]

On 7/4/2018 at 4:25 AM, GraceK said:

Fred is really so nice to June. He’s the only one showing her any kindness and concern.  Also, he has such a nice face and Joseph Fiennes is so sexy and attractive, and Fred really does love and desire June...why, I bet if June is nicer to him , he will just do anything she wants. Really, looking back on the whole show, he is the one who has given her any glimpse of Hannah and any glimmers of help. Maybe there’s a redemption arc for him???? ( that was sarcasm btw)

does that sound ridiculous or what? I find it really interesting that in all this discussion, Fred is not once is given half the sympathy Serena gets just because he has a penis. Serena has proven herself to be the more ruthless, sadistic, cruel and intelligent of the pair, with pretty much all of the  brains and was one of main architects of this society, yet so many of the posters here feel that because she was shut out of the end result she is a victim. Fred may be a man and wield the most “power”, but in actuality, he has consistently been the only one in that household who has actually  treated June well besides Rita and Nick.Serena and Lydia  are the only ones who have abused her. The rape was instigated by Serena and done by both Fred AND Serena. So really, Fred can be considered her ally if you break it down. Yet no one has talked about “redemption “, or “character growth” or “hidden depth “ when it comes to Fred, but are happily willing to overlook a vicious , evil harpy of a woman because why??? 

I think Serena gets verbally slaughtered much more than Fred, and yet she's the only one who has moments of humanity. Everything he does involves control and manipulation; up until she encouraged him to rape June, I was one of those who liked her at times. 

On 7/4/2018 at 10:40 AM, LordOfLotion said:

I have the impression that Lawrence got her with the eye already missing. The way he bickered with the martha over her moving his stuff around could have been anyone. She cussed loud enough for everyone to hear and dared him to try to beat her because she knew he wouldn't do it. All of the others keep their heads down and quietly go about their business.  This martha is not afraid of him the way other marthas and handmaids are afraid of their commanders.

On commanders and wives with children, I don't think they would have an opportunity to show handmaids much in a household that already had kids. That doesn't mean there aren't any. It's something else they can't address because they waste too much time needlessly dragging out some of these scenes.

 

On 7/4/2018 at 1:24 PM, Empress1 said:

That scene with June and Fred in the kitchen made me murderous with rage. Like, I was hoping June would grab a knife from the counter and slash his throat. "Is that all I get?" "Motherfucker, here's what you get!" [slash]

Yet again I wonder about the logic of "giving" every commander and wife a handmaid and ostensibly a child. Bradley Whitford is what, 60 years old? And his wife is "insane" (I say she's the only wife we've seen with sense but Gilead thinks she's insane) and hates him. Why bring a kid into that house? 

Gilead is a society in which it's socially acceptable to a) execute a 15-year-old that you forced into marriage, and b) bring a newborn to witness said execution. "Praise fucking be."

Yeah, I have a family friend who is white with black hair and brown eyes and who was married to a white man with light brown hair and blue eyes, and all three of their kids take after him. One of them has more of her body shape than his dad's (I used to babysit them and he grew up to be tall and heavy like her; her ex-husband is average height and weight), but they all have their dad's coloring.

  Reveal hidden contents

I read spoilers about the finale before I watched the episode, and if you take them into account when watching this one, his actions make a lot of sense. I think he took in a "shitty handmaid" because he knows that she's not here for ANY of this, has been through the ringer in Gilead, and has fought it as much as she can, and if he's a resister, he can trust her to flee and not turn him in for treason. If someone like Eden were his handmaid, he'd end up on the wall.

The fact that Cora was "acting out in front of company" and talking back is significant, IMO. I LOVED seeing her not give a fuck about Aunt Lydia. She was almost like "Bitch, what do you want?"

I'm only calling the baby Holly.

I loved the scenes with the sassy martha, and their bickering. 

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

You must not have read my posts. :) Hers is the only sane reaction from a wife that we've seen, in my opinion. I wish they'd introduced her sooner - surely not all the Commander's wives were homemakers before the fall. Shit - I'm an avid reader (just picked up something I've had on hold at the library for literally months), and someone stripping me of the right to read, leaving aside ALL the other bullshit women have to deal with in this society, would have me screaming that I hated him every single day. Like, if I had all the rights I have now except reading and writing was forbidden? I WOULD DRAG LAWMAKERS FOR FILTH.

I've just quoted one of them. :) And seen a couple of other posts about her. 

[Umbelina]

There were a few of us that commented early on that the wife was a sane person acting in an insane world, so seeming insane because the normal was, in reality, the insanity.

Alice in Wonderland time...

Edited July 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[deSchenke]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

The writing for Serena is all over the place. I don't buy this as organic character development. The writers are lucky that they have a great actress ho sells the hell out of it. I could almost believe it.

 

Have the gilleadians never heard of how important body contact is? I mean feed the baby from the bottle all you want, but take her clothes off and feed her on your bare chest woman. It's important for bonding and the health of the baby.

 

Seems weird that the weights are left in the pool and only the chains are removed. Seems like that would be extremely difficult under water. Also has never thought of picking up the weight and walking to the shallow end? That went through my head the second I saw it. That might not save my life in the long run, but I'd try a spiel about how god saved my life and stuff. That might just work.

 

That would have gone really great for Nick, if she was found with Isaac. Not noticing that your wife was missing? How could that be? Maybe you even helped them escape.

Plus, what good would it have done Eden?

 

 

1 hour ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

They would’ve still searched for Isaac and found Eden with him and then Nick would’ve likely been in trouble for not reporting Eden’s absence. 

 

There were only him and June in the room when Fred said Isaac hadn't shown up.  Nick could have kept his mouth shut at that moment.  Later, he could have said he thought Eden was with Rita or Serena Joy.  Maybe 8 hours later is unreasonable, but an hour or two might have made a difference.

If Eden and Isaac had a little more head start, it would be less likely they would be found.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:59 AM, watchTV said:

He has a maid with a gouged eye.

SO SO SO SO much I want to comment on but am just reading over the whole six pages here after watching last night (saved this thread until I'd finished my work like my carrot on the end of a stick) and thinking "yes, yes, yes" ... BUT my thought when I saw the maid with the gouged eye was NOT that this Commander was responsible for that ... rather that, like Emily, she had been someone in her former Gileadean life who had broken the rules and paid for it like Janine, like Emily, etc. And we know that he was responsible for the concept of the Colonies so I think we're led to believe he is unredeemably evil but I'm not sure which way they're going to go with this ... my gut reaction was that there is guilt there and that he will turn out to be a "good guy" as far as that goes (but show likes to play with us and I am sure we will get NO resolution on that until S3). 

[Miles]

37 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

There were only him and June in the room when Fred said Isaac hadn't shown up.  Nick could have kept his mouth shut at that moment.  Later, he could have said he thought Eden was with Rita or Serena Joy.  Maybe 8 hours later is unreasonable, but an hour or two might have made a difference.

If Eden and Isaac had a little more head start, it would be less likely they would be found.

They were already going to search for Isaac. He was a deserter at that point. It's unlikely that they upped their effort jsut because they knew there was an adaulteress with him.

If Eden and Issac had any brains they would have run away when Issac had off work for a few days. That's really not on Nick.

[NeenerNeener]

I never thought I could feel sorry for that little snot Eden, but that execution was just brutal to watch. And it looks like everybody pool-side felt that way too. That was really an over-reaction to their "crime", and reduces the breeding population that much more, proving that Gilead is just all about old white guys.

[Anela]

On 7/4/2018 at 5:49 PM, lesmisfits29 said:

Why does Serena hate June so much??? I get a little bit of jealousy but this is another level. She seemed so level headed a little earlier in the show and now she's just gone insane. I don't get it.

I think it's partly that her husband is obsessed with her, and also that she carried the baby that she wanted to carry herself. She also knows that baby isn't really hers or her husbands, so I think she's projecting onto her, rather than hating herself. 

A lot of the time, when a man is unfaithful - or feels something for another woman, but nothing happens - hatred is projected onto the woman. I've had it done to me (and, no, i wasn't involved with a cheater - I was hit on more than once, and he kept causing trouble - I vented about that in an older thread). I got the hatred that he should have received, because she didn't want to break up with him, and it made her feel bad about herself (which is the biggest reason I hate him). 

On 7/4/2018 at 6:06 PM, Pachengala said:

I am literally stunned by how much I find myself loving AB in this role. I’m on record, when I learned of her casting, as totally against it because she was so weak and annoying in Gilmore Girls, but holy shit she’s killed every single scene.

I want to believe in Commander Bradley Whitford but him shoving his wife into her room was really visceral and upsetting. They’re going to need to explain that if they plan to make him a hero figure. 

Finally, please @mamadrama, I have to know: is your affection for Joseph Fiennes going to survive this season intact? Because I’ve actually gotten to the point where I avert my eyes whenever he’s onscreen; that’s how much he’s repulsively inhabiting this role. 

I love her in this role, too. She isn't expected to act cutesy, and she just keeps fighting in her own ways. 

[Ashforth]

2 hours ago, Miles said:

Seems like that would be extremely difficult under water. Also has no one ever thought of picking up the weight and walking to the shallow end? That went through my head the second I saw it. That might not save my life in the long run, but I'd try a spiel about how god saved my life and stuff. That might just work.

Oh, this made me laugh and laugh. You are way too smart to be allowed to live by the powers that be in Gilead.

But really: "Praised Be! The Lord gave me the intelligence to save myself!" How would that go over?

[deSchenke]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

They were already going to search for Isaac. He was a deserter at that point. It's unlikely that they upped their effort jsut because they knew there was an adaulteress with him.

If Eden and Issac had any brains they would have run away when Issac had off work for a few days. That's really not on Nick.

 

"Guardian Isaac, he's not at his post. He never showed up for his shift this morning."

That to me does not imply that they thought Isaac was a deserter.  Perhaps he was sick, perhaps he broke a leg - who knows.  There was no alarm that he was a deserter at the point that Commander Waterford brought this up to the attention of Nick (in front of June alone).  No real alarm bells ringing until Nick reacted and stated, "we have a situation".

[Empress1]

58 minutes ago, Anela said:

I think it's partly that her husband is obsessed with her, and also that she carried the baby that she wanted to carry herself. She also knows that baby isn't really hers or her husbands, so I think she's projecting onto her, rather than hating herself. 

A lot of the time, when a man is unfaithful - or feels something for another woman, but nothing happens - hatred is projected onto the woman. I've had it done to me (and, no, i wasn't involved with a cheater - I was hit on more than once, and he kept causing trouble - I vented about that in an older thread). I got the hatred that he should have received, because she didn't want to break up with him, and it made her feel bad about herself (which is the biggest reason I hate him). 

I love her in this role, too. She isn't expected to act cutesy, and she just keeps fighting in her own ways. 

Yes, and I think this is because at the core, people cheat because they want to. The reasons for wanting to may be myriad and complex, but at the end of the day, someone who does not want to cheat will not cheat no matter what is going on in his/her relationship. And who wants to believe their SO just didn't want to be faithful to them? It's an easier pill to swallow to think that the other person seduced him, somehow "made" your SO cheat.

With June and Serena, it's complicated for Serena because Fred and Serena have been shown to have been in love once but they clearly hate each other now; Fred is clearly ... enmeshed with June in a way that is problematic for Serena (he was taking June on "dates" to Jezebel's, having sex with her outside of the ceremony); and June hates Fred. So Serena is probably like, "Well, even if Fred and I can't get back to where we were [and I think not], why is Fred mooning around after a woman who would love to kill him if she could?" How humiliating for her, you know? (Fuck Serena though.) 

And as Joel from Parenthood pointed out in Canada, this is not her child. Holly isn't Fred's either, and she was not given to them willingly. She's a stolen baby. Serena knows that in her heart (she knew it when Joel from Parenthood said it and it's even harder to face now that Holly is here), and I think it's eating at her.

[mishap]

Quote

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:15 AM, guilfoyleatpp said:

Handmaid’s Tale...DO NOT betray me the way that Walking Dead did. 

 

I thought this very thing, when I was watching THT today.   But I have not watched the most recent season of TWD  .

I was just thinking that they need to give us some hope and something to root for.  I think they will.  Emily's new commander is interesting, as is his entire household.  

[AttackTurtle]

The notion that they killed a child bride for adultery when many commanders are off visiting the brothel (from last season), was beyond fucked up. 

I don’t like to give Serena Joy any benefit of the doubt, but every once in a while, she does seem to have moments where she realizes their society has gone off the rails. Killing Eden (a child) may just have crossed a line.   Probably not.

[AnswersWanted]

12 hours ago, ferjy said:

It does soothe sometimes. I had a problem with my milk (which I found out about later, when she wasn’t gaining weight) but my daughter would suckle contentedly and fall asleep. Sometimes it’s just a comfort thing more than for food. That’s what Serena was probably hoping. It may not have worked with Serena because she’s not the birth mother. They say newborns remember their mother’s smell. Baby probably thought who the F are you? 

 

Comforting nursing is certainly possible and works for some, but in that scene I just saw it differently.

To me the baby was probably still hungry, that seemed to be a key theme throughout the episode, but Serena was sick of feeling useless because she couldn’t feed Holly solo so she hoped her dry breast could be enough and it clearly wasn’t.

 And I had no idea that I could comment so many times on a fictional TV character’s nipple, heh. 

 

11 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

I find it interesting that in an emergency, suddenly technology appears in Gilead, albeit behind closed doors. Like when June started bleeding during her pregnancy, suddenly she was strapped in and monitored by what looked like high tech equipment. I think that, like in some fascist regimes, the masses are told that technology is bad and reject it. But if it serves the aims of the upper echelon, then technology is a-ok, they just don't talk about it. Just another hypocrisy, to go along with all the others. 

I have a very hard time believing that in a society with fertility problems, where one birth is met with a massive celebration, that the inability to provide breast milk would mean that they would let a baby die. But declaring that babies must be breast fed because it's Gods will is a winning narrative for the regime. Birth control, formula, etc is what allowed women to enter the workforce, hence gave rise to women having power. Gilead is hell bent on the subjugation of women, so it makes sense that they glorify all things related to motherhood, including breastfeeding. I have no doubt that there's a back up plan for babies with bio moms what can't breastfeed. 

 

Janine’s baby was going to die if June had not convinced Serena to, illegally, intervene in her care, and then somehow wrangle it so that Janine could come in and save her daughter at the last second. 

The entire Gilead council was going to standby and do nothing while a Neonatal specialist was wasting away in her role as a Martha.

They were not going to tap her to rush in and try to save the baby, they knew that there was someone for more equipped than the personnel currently treating the child and their response was to say let it be god’s will if she lives or dies.

To me that is a society that could see a child stare to death if “god” does not bless the mother to have an adequate milk supply. 

Maybe they don’t care if someone smuggles in formula or tries to feed the child animal milk if possible, but I have seen nothing that strikes me as them having a “Plan B” in place officially. 

If they would not take the most extreme measures to save Janine’s baby, and she too was a child of a commander, in fact she could be the actual biological child of that particular commander, then the formula issue could very well fall under the same guidelines. 

I do not believe that they just say what they feel they should to the public and then do things in secret, at least not all the time.

If that were the case then we never should’ve seen Janine’s baby on the cusp of dying, or at the very least it should not have taken so many broken rules and regulations just to get her seen by the one professional who should have been involved with her emergency care from the start. 

The regime seems far more concerned with losing control than saving lives, whether that be the life of an infant it just does not seem to matter to them. 

 Gilead declared that only women could be infertile and barren, it is illegal to even state that the problem is with the men, Gilead wants to keep women under total subjugation from start to finish, without the ability to read or write or work or exist without a man by her side, keeping her under his total control whether he is her father or her brother or her husband.

Gilead is about power and control, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with fertility, it never has and it never will, not when it comes to the true group in control. 

Eden was just 15 years old, she’d just been married off, but they did not even try to see if this girl was truly fertile or not, they decided to drown her instead, potentially taking a healthy young lady out of the birthing pool that had at least 15 years of fertility ahead of her. 

15 years plus to produce children, to assist with bringing new lives into the world, instead they killed her. How many potential little lives died with her? 

IMO, Gilead was founded on totalitarian bullshit that they could feed to the masses to normalize their takeover. 

Once they succeeded, the real motives were then revealed and the lives of the children of the future seemed to fall to the bottom of the list. 

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, AttackTurtle said:

The notion that they killed a child bride for adultery when many commanders are off visiting the brothel (from last season), was beyond fucked up. 

I don’t like to give Serena Joy any benefit of the doubt, but every once in a while, she does seem to have moments where she realizes their society has gone off the rails. Killing Eden (a child) may just have crossed a line.   Probably not.

Oh, I think Serena knows the entire system is fucked up.

She probably knows that much more than most Wives.

[AnswersWanted]

I think Lawrence’s wife was aware they were living in a nightmare long before all the others, and I think that is why she’s basically barely clinging to sanity, the longer she’s been forced to live in Gilead it’s literally driving her out of her mind.

I feel greatly for the woman.

IMO, Serena is a case of too little too late.

 I think she put off and ignored all of the warning signs and now that things are starting to close in on her personally and her so-called protected status is no longer as nearly protected as she believed it could and would be, she very well may feel the need to act, but frankly I think she’s dug the hole too deep at this point. 

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I think Serena knows the entire system is fucked up.

She probably knows that much more than most Wives.

I think that’s why she’s been slowly losing her mind. She’s fixated on this baby as a coping mechanism IMO.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I think that’s why she’s been slowly losing her mind. She’s fixated on this baby as a coping mechanism IMO.

Yes, she's had a pipe dream that would make all she's enduring, and other's are enduring...worth it.

That's the only thing in the plus column for her.

She HATES:

• the uniforms and by now, especially the color teal
• not reading, no books, internet, newspapers for her now
• not working (writing/speaking/giving interviews for her
• not having any real power, except over a martha and a handmaid
• the "ceremony" with June's head knocking against her pubis.
• not having sex
• not going out to brunch or doing any of the things she looked so longingly at the Canadian women doing, kissing, going to work, having dinners out with friends, laughing, reading, seeing a play, wearing shorts, being normal
• she hates knitting
• she hates having a handmaids living in her house
• she hates her husband and that she must stay with him or die
• she hates not being able to speak her mind, hates "blessed day" bullshit
• I think she misses having intelligent conversation with other women, that's why she was so happy when she finally worked with, and talked to, June as they forged papers
• she hates having a guardian stationed in her house
• she probably hates the limited food, travel, having no TV or movies
• she hates not being able to drive herself somewhere
• she hates being ridiculed and detested by the people allowed to do that, those in Canada, and she's smart enough to know that everyone IN Gilead probably feels the same way, but can't say it.
• she hates never being shown any affection

I could probably go on.

Oh yes, Serena knows it's fucked there.  Eden's death was just the latest horrific example of that.  Could it be her final straw? 

[secnarf]

I thought the baby was crying because of colic or something. I didn’t get the impression Serena wasn’t feeding the baby, just that June’s volumes were low enough that having a continued supply of milk was in jeopardy. By the end of the episode, I thought they wanted to make the point that the kid just wanted her mom, since Holly calmed when she was with June, similar to the (IMO) utterly unrealistic/unbelievable implication with baby Charlotte earlier in the season. Still had a really hard time believing Serena’s change of heart, but it’s not like she hasn’t flipped back and forth before.

 

As for the scene with Serena attempting to ‘breastfeed’, non-nutritive sucking is a real concept, and some adoptive mothers do breastfeed their babies. The continued suckling of the breast (+/- medications such as domperidone) can stimulate milk production even in women who have not just given birth. It takes time, but it can happen. Having said that, the scene with Serena made me feel sick. She stole this baby, it wasn’t one that was willingly given up for adoption.

 

I could not really believe Isaac martyring himself. I could, however, believe Eden acting all naïve and like a lovesick teenager, thinking it is so romantic to die for true love. I always find it really hard to watch people drown – I think that must be one of the most horrible ways to die, and my uncle died from drowning, so I was sufficiently affected by the whole scene and for the first time was sad Eden won’t be around anymore. She went from annoying to mildly interesting, I just wish Nick would have shown more sense while she was alive. That would have helped a lot. I wonder how his guilt will affect him moving forward.

I know the weights at the bottom of the pool were meant to be impactful, but I was wondering why the chains weren’t still attached – it took me out of the scene, a bit.

Also – how did they test Eden for pregnancy if pregnancy tests are outlawed and only exist on the black market?

 

This episode made me wish Alexis Bledel was June. I absolutely love her.

 

21 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

Rewatching the episode and the part where he talks about losing a child is like losing a limb... he seems off in space, lost for a second.

I think he may have lost a child? Perhaps even if its a grown child that is in Canada, was executed for being gay or breaking some other Gilead law, or didn’t agree with his work and disowned him. 

Maybe this evoked a change in him? Just a thought. He seemed lost in his thoughts for a second. (These are total speculations and not based on any spoiler.)

This was my interpretation as well.

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think because of the whole "natural" thing breast milk is prized there, heck I just read that 83% of babies now get breast milk where even a few years ago it was under 10%.

That said, some babies are allergic to breast milk.  I was.  It devastated my mother, who had been trying for a baby for closing on 20 years.

 

A bit off-topic but were you allergic to breast milk or cow's milk protein? I work in a neonatal unit and have never seen a child allergic to breast milk. I have, however, seen kids with cow's milk protein allergy and the moms have to cut all dairy from their diet so cow's milk protein doesn't get into their breast milk. Unfortunately, this can have the side effect of dramatically decreasing milk production (something to do with the hormones).

Edited July 6, 2018 by secnarf

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, secnarf said:

This was my interpretation as well.

A bit off-topic but were you allergic to breast milk or cow's milk protein? I work in a neonatal unit and have never seen a child allergic to breast milk. I have, however, seen kids with cow's milk protein allergy and the moms have to cut all dairy from their diet so cow's milk protein doesn't get into their breast milk. Unfortunately, this can have the side effect of dramatically decreasing milk production (something to do with the hormones).

I was allergic to breast milk.  I think my entire life a secret part of my mother never forgave me for that, and always thought I disliked her.   My mother had wanted a baby for so long, she had Serena level of baby longing.  I was also allergic to cow's milk, and I'm pretty sure they tried other kinds of milk with me as well.  Anyway, they went through several kinds of formula for me and finally found one I could keep in.  I can't remember which it was, my mom's OB GYN was in Hollywood, he adored my mother because she came to him because she wanted to keep her baby.  Most of his clients were stars and starlets in need of help not having a baby.  Anyway, he was kind of a big deal, and I think he found a newer one in Japan or something, Soy based I think, that finally worked.

I remained allergic to cows milk as a kid, though, not to cheeses.  As an adult I can have it, I just rarely want to.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

6 minutes ago, secnarf said:

 

A bit off-topic but were you allergic to breast milk or cow's milk protein? I work in a neonatal unit and have never seen a child allergic to breast milk. I have, however, seen kids with cow's milk protein allergy and the moms have to cut all dairy from their diet so cow's milk protein doesn't get into their breast milk. Unfortunately, this can have the side effect of dramatically decreasing milk production (something to do with the hormones).

Anecdotal, but my aunt was allergic to breast milk and she eventually died from starvation. She was born in 1943 and was the youngest of (then) 12 children. My grandmother tried to feed her over and over again, but the breast milk made her VERY sick. (Like anaphylactic sick, not acid reflux sick). We live in kind of an isolated part of the country and even now it takes an hour to get to the closest hospital. My grandmother tried goat's milk, because it's slightly better than cow milk on an infant, and supplementing with syrup and stuff, but Patricia just couldn't handle it. Nana begged the doctors to help her, but there weren't any specialists around at the time. Patricia died of starvation at 4 months old. Later, with the advent of WIC and the soy milk and other types of formula that have been helpful to those with allergies, Nana was confident that Patricia could have been saved. Back then, though, nobody knew what to do. (Incidentally, infant mortality is high in our family. I also lost a child. He was 2 months old when he died of cardiac arrest in his sleep. Today would have been his 8th birthday.)

[NoSpam]

22 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Today would have been his 8th birthday.)

I'm so terribly sorry for your loss.

[Ashforth]

@mamadrama sending you all the love in the world.

[guilfoyleatpp]

@mamadrama...hugs to you and your family and happy birthday to your sweet angel. 

13 hours ago, TexasGal said:

Adding to the formula discussion, maybe it's due to the really low birth rates, but it seems like if one of the handmaids turned out to have a great supply of milk, wouldn't they try to set up some kind of nurse maid situation if they don't use formula?

Kudos to whoever coined Commander Lemon-Lyman (I tried to find out again but can't!), I will think of him as that forever.  Unless he turns out to be completely horrible, and taints my swoony memories of Josh too much.

Some women do oversupply milk, but there's also a belief that breastfeeding acts as natural birth control. I don't know of studies that prove it is, and I know a couple of women who became pregnant while they were breastfeeding under the belief that it was at least more difficult, and one woman who was told specifically by her doctor to stop breastfeeding her nearly two year old if she wanted to get pregnant again. And she did and she did the next month. 

Gilead would not want to "waste" a fertile woman in this way. They're all about the vessel, it seems, and less concerned with either party once it's out of the uterus. 

Reminds me of somethings I've heard before...I can't recall now. 

[numbnut]

I think Elizabeth Moss's nose is trying to get an Emmy nod. That thing is getting way too many lingering close-ups.

On 6/27/2018 at 1:11 AM, mamadrama said:

I actually have a good feeling about this commander. I think this promo is just meant to throw us off a little. It is my hope that things will not be completely as they seem at first.

I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully he's a Resistance leader who can get this show out of its torture-porn rut.

[Ashforth]

9 minutes ago, guilfoyleatpp said:

Some women do oversupply milk, but there's also a belief that breastfeeding acts as natural birth control. I don't know of studies that prove it is, and I know a couple of women who became pregnant while they were breastfeeding under the belief that it was at least more difficult, and one woman who was told specifically by her doctor to stop breastfeeding her nearly two year old if she wanted to get pregnant again. And she did and she did the next month. 

Taking this to Small Talk.

[Miles]

4 hours ago, Ashforth said:

But really: "Praised Be! The Lord gave me the intelligence to save myself!" How would that go over?

Nonono, you are doing it wrong. "When I was under water, Jesus came to me and he said 'My child, I forgive you your sins, for you did not know what you did. It is not your time yet. Pick up the weight and walk out of the cleansing waters, so you may be reborn!'"

See, you can't say it was your idea. The lord made you do it, for he is mercyfull and bullshit. Never let on that you may have a mind of your own. All Jesus, all the time. ;)

Edited July 6, 2018 by Miles

[Miles]

3 hours ago, deSchenke said:

"Guardian Isaac, he's not at his post. He never showed up for his shift this morning."

That to me does not imply that they thought Isaac was a deserter.  Perhaps he was sick, perhaps he broke a leg - who knows.  There was no alarm that he was a deserter at the point that Commander Waterford brought this up to the attention of Nick (in front of June alone).  No real alarm bells ringing until Nick reacted and stated, "we have a situation".

Because you can just stay home at a military type job in a totalitarian regime and people would just assume you had the flu...

Nick not saying anything would maybe have bought them half an hour. But it could also have put Nick and maybe the hole household, including June and his daughter in danger. We know there are purges in Gillead, where the whole household of a commander is killed. That is what Serena and June teamed up for to prevent, when Waterford was in the hospital. Last week when the Waterfords were fighting Serena said "they'll put us both on the wall for this". They are all in danger, all of the time, especially with all the scandals the Waterford household had recently.

Again, this is on Eden and Isaac seemingly not having one braincell put together.

[Anela]

4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Anecdotal, but my aunt was allergic to breast milk and she eventually died from starvation. She was born in 1943 and was the youngest of (then) 12 children. My grandmother tried to feed her over and over again, but the breast milk made her VERY sick. (Like anaphylactic sick, not acid reflux sick). We live in kind of an isolated part of the country and even now it takes an hour to get to the closest hospital. My grandmother tried goat's milk, because it's slightly better than cow milk on an infant, and supplementing with syrup and stuff, but Patricia just couldn't handle it. Nana begged the doctors to help her, but there weren't any specialists around at the time. Patricia died of starvation at 4 months old. Later, with the advent of WIC and the soy milk and other types of formula that have been helpful to those with allergies, Nana was confident that Patricia could have been saved. Back then, though, nobody knew what to do. (Incidentally, infant mortality is high in our family. I also lost a child. He was 2 months old when he died of cardiac arrest in his sleep. Today would have been his 8th birthday.)

Oh. :( *big hugs*

[watchTV]

18 hours ago, ferjy said:

Oh, that’s an angle I didn’t think of, the sadistic commander. I thought he might be a good guy. He may not have had a choice making the colonies (maybe threats to loved ones?). Or maybe the wife is misinformed. He may take in the strays  (hence the maimed Martha). He’s a bit of a mystery at the moment. But he’s interesting and good to see something different to the usual bland commanders. I hope he’s one of the good ones. He might be feeling out Emily to see how strong she is, if he is part of the resistance and is trying to recruit her.

Yes, we don't really know what he's up to. But as someone else pointed out, why did he have to go through each traumatic thing Emily endured? This will boil down to whether he created the colonies. The labor of death.

[watchTV]

8 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

SO SO SO SO much I want to comment on but am just reading over the whole six pages here after watching last night (saved this thread until I'd finished my work like my carrot on the end of a stick) and thinking "yes, yes, yes" ... BUT my thought when I saw the maid with the gouged eye was NOT that this Commander was responsible for that ... rather that, like Emily, she had been someone in her former Gileadean life who had broken the rules and paid for it like Janine, like Emily, etc. And we know that he was responsible for the concept of the Colonies so I think we're led to believe he is unredeemably evil but I'm not sure which way they're going to go with this ... my gut reaction was that there is guilt there and that he will turn out to be a "good guy" as far as that goes (but show likes to play with us and I am sure we will get NO resolution on that until S3). 

True. Quite a few people believe she was already that way. If he did create the colonies and somehow found a conscious then good. If he does something about it, even better. Anyone suffering in that place will appreciate whatever reprieve they can get. But if he did have a hand in creating it then he needs to be held accountable.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, watchTV said:

Yes, we don't really know what he's up to. But as someone else pointed out, why did he have to go through each traumatic thing Emily endured? This will boil down to whether he created the colonies. The labor of death.

I thought it was to test her resolve. Delving so thoroughly into her past is another clue. He specifically chose her because of all she had been through and that she survived it all. I think he wanted to see her reactions to his rather brutal interrogation. 

[zobot81]

So, this new commander (Bradley) is into collecting the most rebellious "help" he can find?  That was my impression.  He knows everything about Emily's stay/torture in Gilead.  EVERYTHING.  And I'm assuming their Martha has a similarly tormented history in Gilead -- her eye is just like Janine's.  And she curses like a sailor.

I also noticed the art.  The art in their home is a huge flag to me that the family unit clings to true liberty.  Modern art is usually an indication of a more progressive home...which is pure conjecture on my part, or else from personal experience, or at least it comes from some sort of a mild bias.  Either way, I think Emily's new arc is very, very, VERY interesting.

[dleighg]

4 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

Modern art is usually an indication of a more progressive home...which is pure conjecture on my part, or else from personal experience, or at least it comes from some sort of a mild bias

I totally agree. This is not a go-along-to-get-along kind of guy. 

[Baltimore Betty]

4 minutes ago, dleighg said:

I totally agree. This is not a go-along-to-get-along kind of guy. 

Now all we have to do is wait to see what his "angle" is. 

Things that could be...

1. He may be a sadist

2. He is trapped in Gilead every bit as much as anyone else and THIS Gilead is not at all what he intended.

3. He was promised more than what he has gotten and is bitter about it.  

4. Maybe he has a tunnel that leads out of Gilead in his basement.

This show always keeps us guessing.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, secnarf said:

I just wish Nick would have shown more sense while she was alive. That would have helped a lot. I wonder how his guilt will affect him moving forward.

 

I know, right? I said "NOW you're being nice to her? Too little too late, fool."

I have a question regarding the formula/breast milk discussion. Was it actually stated that there is no formula in Gilead, or is this an assumption because it wasn't offered up as an option within this household? Because I missed a specific statement about it.

I could totally see Serena Joy insisting on breast milk, because it's "the best thing for the baby" given her obsession (despite her hatred for June). And Rita would know better than to suggest it. I could also see it as a last resort in Gilead, when a baby stops thriving - for the same "best thing for the baby" belief.

Given that I was formula fed (my mother's milk didn't come in) and my kids had a combination (my milk was sparse - always), and we all grew up fine and healthy, with few allergies and bonded with our mothers -  I've never been on the breast milk only bandwagon.

It is obviously the way nature intended, and better for many reasons, but nature also killed a lot of babies by creating women who couldn't produce a lot, and babies who couldn't thrive on it, and mothers who didn't survive childbirth.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Clanstarling

[PamelaMaeSnap]

4 hours ago, ferjy said:

He specifically chose her because of all she had been through and that she survived it all

I also thought perhaps he specifically chose her because she was an ACADEMIC who survived. I wonder if rather than his doing all the homework on her history after selecting (or accepting) her as his handmaid, he found her by doing research on who might be out there (maybe a stretch, but still) ... I may very well be WAY offbase on this but I don't think this is going to be a sexual relationship (though his comment about how she's healed might prove me way wrong) ... I'm so stoked to see where this goes and wish we knew the debut date of S3 (IIRC, there was a surprisingly short gap between S1 and 2 but, as usual, I don't trust my memory) 

[PamelaMaeSnap]

21 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Given that I was formula fed (my mother's milk didn't come in) and my kids had a combination (my milk was sparse - always), and we all grew up fine and healthy, with few allergies and bonded with our mothers -  I've never been on the breast milk only bandwagon.

Ditto here ... I'm an oldie, so my mom went the formula route because that was how you did things then (like photos of her with an eight-months-pregnant stomach and a cigarette dangling from her fingers) ...

I fully intended to nurse because people (not just the LLL but I won't get started on that!) said it was best for the baby, but due to a possible combination of circumstances (she was premature so not sure my body had gotten the message it was "time," plus the fact that I was/am very boobalicious and was told later by a natal nurse that it is not uncommon for large-breasted women to have trouble nursing both because she had trouble latching on plus I produced maybe an ounce an hour attached to a pump for what seemed like 24/7), I developed raging mastitis and she was really hungry and my doctor just said "PUT HER ON FORMULA NOW!!! YOU ARE STILL A GREAT MOTHER!!!!" and she just thrived and bloomed from that point on and is a gorgeous, healthy young woman who has no negative mommy issues LOL. Cuddling her in my arms with a bottle were awesome bonding times (in fact, better in terms of being able to have close eye contact where mommy's face wasn't in excruciating pain).

If, indeed, there was no formula available or acceptable and the few Commanders' Wives who "had babies" took over, I'm actually sort of surprised that Gilead did not automatically have a wet-nurse brigade set up (if it was good enough for plantations ... SMH) ... not just the handmaid who has given birth but, perhaps, a category of Econowives who have given birth around the same time just to be safe. I could see it creating a "breeders" farm with women popping out babies and being kept "nurse-ready," especially given that fertility rates have declined.

Edited July 6, 2018 by PamelaMaeSnap

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Ditto here ... I'm an oldie, so my mom went the formula route because that was how you did things then (like photos of her with an eight-months-pregnant stomach and a cigarette dangling from her fingers) ...

I fully intended to nurse because people (not just the LLL but I won't get started on that!) said it was best for the baby, but due to a possible combination of circumstances (she was premature so not sure my body had gotten the message it was "time," plus the fact that I was/am very boobalicious and was told later by a natal nurse that it is not uncommon for large-breasted women to have trouble nursing both because she had trouble latching on plus I produced maybe an ounce an hour attached to a pump for what seemed like 24/7), I developed raging mastitis and she was really hungry and my doctor just said "PUT HER ON FORMULA NOW!!! YOU ARE STILL A GREAT MOTHER!!!!" and she just thrived and bloomed from that point on and is a gorgeous, healthy young woman who has no negative mommy issues LOL. Cuddling her in my arms with a bottle were awesome bonding times (in fact, better in terms of being able to have close eye contact where mommy's face wasn't in excruciating pain).

If, indeed, there was no formula available or acceptable and the few Commanders' Wives who "had babies" took over, I'm actually sort of surprised that Gilead did not automatically have a wet-nurse brigade set up (if it was good enough for plantations ... SMH) ... not just the handmaid who has given birth but, perhaps, a category of Econowives who have given birth around the same time just to be safe. I could see it creating a "breeders" farm with women popping out babies and being kept "nurse-ready."

Are we twins? We share the same childhood and nursing history. Except that I was the one who insisted on the formula when my child was losing weight instead of gaining.

[Miles]

7 hours ago, watchTV said:

True. Quite a few people believe she was already that way. If he did create the colonies and somehow found a conscious then good. If he does something about it, even better. Anyone suffering in that place will appreciate whatever reprieve they can get. But if he did have a hand in creating it then he needs to be held accountable.

He might have created the colonies to give people a fighting chance. After all, those are all people who were sentenced to death. They would have ended up on the wall or in a pool if not for the Colonies. Janine and Emily are alive because of him.

 

1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

4. Maybe he has a tunnel that leads out of Gilead in his basement.

A bit unlikely in Boston. :D

[AnswersWanted]

51 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

If, indeed, there was no formula available or acceptable and the few Commanders' Wives who "had babies" took over, I'm actually sort of surprised that Gilead did not automatically have a wet-nurse brigade set up (if it was good enough for plantations ... SMH) ... not just the handmaid who has given birth but, perhaps, a category of Econowives who have given birth around the same time just to be safe. I could see it creating a "breeders" farm with women popping out babies and being kept "nurse-ready," especially given that fertility rates have declined.

 

I think the Commanders in charge are incredibly ignorant, prideful, and selfish men who seem to know little to nothing about babies and their needs. 

Honestly I have serious doubts many, if any, really care one way or another. 

A select few seem, at least amongst the main heads in charge, to have ever successfully reached fatherhood. 

I see the majority of them behaving like Fred, even when he was in the presence of a distressed Holly, screaming and crying, all he cared about was finding Eden and “bringing her to justice”, he didn’t care that he was stressing out this tiny little infant who supposedly should’ve been his world and his main focus at that time. 

He cared only about the “shame” Eden’s escape would bring upon him, another woman from the Waterford household that showed defiance and a way too easy ability to haul ass out of there before he knew what was up. 

These Commanders seem wrapped up with fighting to keep Gilead from being overtaken, their main concerns appear to be keeping the “womenfolk” in line, about the war, and “building their brand”, which is why Fred is now media director.

Maybe they’ll start broadcasting GNN, Gilead Nightly News. Then they’ll just show a 24/7 live feed of the hanging wall. 

I think the majority of those left in Gilead who actually give, somewhat, of a shit about kids among the power circle are some of the wives, but of course they gave up all rights and the ability to have any say about the system, how things should work or need to change if necessary. 

They must defer to their husbands’ will, the same bunch who pop off to Jezebel’s when it suits their fancy and often force their handmaids to sleep with them outside of the ceremony. 

I actually think that if anything, if the Gilead council de decided to reevaluate the current birthing system the breeding farm idea might just be the tip of the iceberg. 

These men already treat the women like sows to be tagged, caged, beaten and abused, mutilated, and eventually slaughtered when their “time is up”, I definitely could see them taking things even further down the black hole of misery that is Gilead. 

And even still I highly doubt the focus would be on the fertility crisis at its core and future generations being produced. 

[Save Yourself]

On 05/07/2018 at 7:55 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

When what Serena is doing is likened to adoption, that is normalization. There is no comparison between the two situation and I stand by that assertion. 

I didn't make it seem like an adoptive mother couldn't take care of a baby. That would be a ridiculous assertion to make. I was objecting to Serena inserting her breast into the baby's mouth. That is an adoptive parenting thing. It is not something someone who've gone through the pains to adopt a child would do to it. That adoption  has be used to explain the situation is normalizing it. 

No one is saying that what Serena is doing is like a legal adoption, obviously she’s kidnaped the baby but it is exactly like adoption in the sense that someone other than the biological mother will be raising this baby and that a non-biological parent can do an excellent job of raising a child. With regards to your assertion about adoptive mothers not dry feeding their infants, some do as a way of bonding and comforting the baby and some even lactate - this is possible with a lot of preparation beforehand with medication, pumping and breast manipulation. I know someone who had a child recently via surrogacy and she is breastfeeding her baby.

[tennisgurl]

Guess Serena wants a cookie now that she has, behind closed doors, admitted that Holly might want milk from her actual mother, and not the crazy lady who treats her like a baby doll she wants to show off to her friends. I bet Serena is a bit salty that she never got to do her fake birthing ceremony with the other Wives. 

That being said, I do still find her compelling, and I can find some moments of sympathy for her. She got what she thought she wanted, only to realize that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be. I find seeing a woman who wanted women to have more "traditional" places in society, and only after realizing that it meant that, GASP, she was going to end up back in the metaphorical kitchen as well, to be fascinating. That being said, my sympathy for a person who commits violent treason and allows for rape and abuse to happen for her own personal gain will always only have so much sympathy from me, but I do still find her interesting. Moreso than Fred anyway, who is just a power tripping asshole. 

Poor, dumb Eden. Her and her guard boyfriend getting killed really was tragic, even knowing how dumb they acted, and makes the Gilead leadership look even dumber than Eden and Issac in a way. They were dumb kids who bought into Gilead, due to society wide brainwashing we can gather, until it affected them, but its the older, educated, Gilead leadership who executed two healthy young people who would love nothing more than to have sex and make babies and be together as Gilead husband and wife, in a society that supposedly is all based around baby making. Its shows that the Gilead leadership is less about babies, and more about them keeping their own power. 

Nick will certainly feel guilty about all of this, and how maybe if he had showed more affection for her this wouldn't have happened. But, as I've said before, its hard to blame him for not wanting to engage in a creepy forced marriage with a child bride who wants to do nothing but be his wife. I dont blame Eden, but its hard to blame him either. I blame Gilead's leadership for the whole sad mess. 

[Baltimore Betty]

6 minutes ago, Miles said:

He might have created the colonies to give people a fighting chance. After all, those are all people who were sentenced to death. They would have ended up on the wall or in a pool if not for the Colonies. Janine and Emily are alive because of him.

 

A bit unlikely in Boston. :D

One can dream.

[AnswersWanted]

20 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

One can dream.

 

Can he at least figure out a way to melt frozen garage doors?  That might prove useful in the future, you never know. 

[ferjy]

On 7/6/2018 at 10:47 AM, Clanstarling said:

Are we twins? We share the same childhood and nursing history. Except that I was the one who insisted on the formula when my child was losing weight instead of gaining.

Make it triplets.  I was in the same boat as both of you (and was a bit perturbed that my flat chested friend had NO problem nursing her baby) and the stress it caused trying to breastfeed was probably worse for the baby and me than just going to the bottle. I was initially disappointed, but it was a joy seeing my son go from lethargic and emaciated to a cheerful chubby tot. Also nice that my husband could take a few night shifts to feed the baby (“Your turn to bond, Honey.”) so I could get a few hours sleep and feel human again. 

I was surprised there were no wet nurses too. Maybe not for every handmaid since the norm was to keep the handmaid around until the baby was weaned (convenient that Serena was able to defy the rule, I might add) but surely June wasn’t the only handmaid to have milk supply problems. Or what if a handmaid died during birth? No backup plan?

Edited July 7, 2018 by ferjy

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I also thought perhaps he specifically chose her because she was an ACADEMIC who survived. I wonder if rather than his doing all the homework on her history after selecting (or accepting) her as his handmaid, he found her by doing research on who might be out there (maybe a stretch, but still) ... I may very well be WAY offbase on this but I don't think this is going to be a sexual relationship (though his comment about how she's healed might prove me way wrong) ... I'm so stoked to see where this goes and wish we knew the debut date of S3 (IIRC, there was a surprisingly short gap between S1 and 2 but, as usual, I don't trust my memory) 

Good point. There does seem to be something afoot. I hope we’re all rewarded with a decent storyline and that he’s not just sadistic and another power hungry male fulfilling his sick fantasies (poor Emily!)

[chaifan]

Everyone is focusing on Commander Lawrence as the creator of the colonies, but I'm actually more interested in Aunt Lydia's description of him - the architect of Gilead's economy.  I would love for them to give us at least some explanations of how there is an economy - it seems that all major corporations and industries no longer exist.  There's some farming, agriculture, someone's got to be making all the red and teal and grey outfits, but what else is being made in Gilead, and who is buying it?  Does Wall Street still exist, in any form?  Is there a stock market?  From all I can see, it's a pretty shit economy, is that by design or did they seriously miscalculate how things would end up?