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S03.E12: Congregation / S03.E13: Abaddon's Gate

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4 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

tlsD = "that little shit Diogo"

Nice! 

I think Diogo was a lot of fun when he was bouncing against Miller. But he was not a person you want in charge of anything. 

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6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I loved how Amos gravitated to Anna almost immediately. He was truly baffled by Anna, but she's just the sort of person he always looks for, when trying to make the right decision. But man, that was a neat bit of juxtaposition between two utterly different world views:

I love the relationship between Amos and Anna.  Its a great pairing for this show.  I like that Amos understands that he has serious empathy issues and looks for someone with moral compass.  

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3 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I love the relationship between Amos and Anna.  Its a great pairing for this show.  I like that Amos understands that he has serious empathy issues and looks for someone with moral compass.  

Yes, he's like a the little bird going "are you my mother" - but instead it's "are you my moral compass?"

I love Amos.

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On 6/28/2018 at 9:09 AM, showme said:

Oh, and that Ashford is not in jail for his stupidity and the cold blooded killing of a crew member who dared to speak up.

 

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

And speaking of Bobbie -- I'm worried about her.

Figure everybody's going to get a generalized "what happened in the Ring stays in the Ring" pass/pardon.  The survival of humanity was on the line and extreme actions are understandable in extreme situations.

13 hours ago, marinw said:

I agree that Drummer needs to go back to Tycho. The issue is that she may not trust Ashford to look after the Behemoth

I think she will.  I think that's part of what the drinks at the end signaled.  If Ashford had really been the ambitious asshole she thought he was she never would have lived to get to Medbay.  While they were on opposite sides with the Ring, Drummer gets that Ashford's intentions were honorable, if incorrect.  I mean, on the face of it, Ashford has the more credible case.  Drummer's response to "Why did you do this?" kind of boils down to "Naomi's boyfriend, the guy who talks to dead people that no one else can see or hear, told us that his maybe imaginary friend told him that's what we had to do." 

Edited by johntfs
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Pretty sure Bobbi killed her female subordinate - that tends to get you shot by your military organization of choice.  Bobbi left a weapon on the floor and turned her back on the woman, which pretty much has to mean there is no chance of the woman picking up the gun again, hence: is dead. She sort of has no choice but to take up with the Roci crew.  Look at the moment she sort of slinks into the chair next to Alex - her posture is terrible, her expression not particularly good. She doesn't look happy with the choices she's made.  But that has been sort of true since she saw her own people betraying Mars, when she was back on earth. Like a line from a Mcmurty song about a character who can;t cope:

He opened up his eyes and he snapped out of the groove
He saw both sides of everything and found he could not move

I presume Holden and the Roci go through one of the gates - without supplies or ammunition or plan. Very Holden-like.

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3 minutes ago, WildPlum said:

Pretty sure Bobbi killed her female subordinate - that tends to get you shot by your military organization of choice.  Bobbi left a weapon on the floor and turned her back on the woman, which pretty much has to mean there is no chance of the woman picking up the gun again, hence: is dead. She sort of has no choice but to take up with the Roci crew.  Look at the moment she sort of slinks into the chair next to Alex - her posture is terrible, her expression not particularly good. She doesn't look happy with the choices she's made.  But that has been sort of true since she saw her own people betraying Mars, when she was back on earth. Like a line from a Mcmurty song about a character who can;t cope:

He opened up his eyes and he snapped out of the groove
He saw both sides of everything and found he could not move

I presume Holden and the Roci go through one of the gates - without supplies or ammunition or plan. Very Holden-like.

I think Bobbie's posture was as much from her bullet wound as emotion. But yes, I think her only option is with the Roci.

That's a great quote - seeing both sides of everything can indeed be paralyzing - but it can also it can be freeing.

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5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

 

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

and the Behemoth is the OPA's flag-ship.

Ah, but is it?  Fred Johnson is not a member of the OPA and has no particular love for them.  Ashford's purpose was to claim it for that organization and he did so temporarily, but technically that was an act of piracy.  So now, with the Behemoth back under Drummer's / Johnson's control, Ashford in the sickbar sickbay and tlsD squashed like the bug he was, I don't think the OPA have any claim on it.

I do get the impression that all the inners (Earth, Mars) think Belter ⇔ OPA, but that is not, in fact, the case.

 

It's been a while since the episodes in which Team Roci were on Fred Johnson's space station but I sure got the impressions that Fred had cast aside his Earth citizenship and was working to create a new belter nation -- the Outer Planets Alliance.  There are other people working toward that same goal who do not necessarily share Fred's morals or perspective.  There are some who resent an "earther" (the "Butcher of Anderson Station" in particular) having a leading role in the OPA.  Anderson Dawes is one who thinks he has more of a right to leadership in the OPA than Fred and that's how he justifies kidnapping the proto-molecule scientist from Fred's space station.  He would have taken Fred nukes if he could have gotten his hands on them but he settled for the scientist.  The only reason that Drummer (who is strictly Team Johnson) allowed Ashford on board the Behemoth -- knowing that he takes his marching orders from Dawes -- is that Johnson must have told her to do and to accept him as her second-in-command.  I interpreted that as Dawes and Johnson putting their power-struggle for leadership of the OPA on hold in the face of the present crisis.

ETA:

23 minutes ago, WildPlum said:

Pretty sure Bobbi killed her female subordinate - that tends to get you shot by your military organization of choice. 

It wasn't clear to me if the woman Bobbie fought hand-to-hand (I don't recall Bobbie shooting her) was dead or just unconscious, but actually I hope she's dead.  If so, then there is no one alive who will testify that Bobbie sided with Team Roci in that fire-fight.  The Martians sent three soldiers to stop the broadcast.  They had to go in un-armored because that little shit Diogo stole their gear.  All three got shot/injured in the fight and only Bobbie survived (and whoops, thank goodness they failed in their assignment because that broadcast and the powering-down of the spaceships that resulted from it are the only reason ANYONE in the solar system is left alive.)  So if the woman Bobbie fought ended up dying as a result, I can imagine a scenario wherein Bobbie is given a purple heart for the wound she took in battle and then quietly allowed an honorable discharge.  If that woman survives to tell the tale of turn-coat Bobbie -- well that might end up being a problem.  So I really hope she died.

Edited by WatchrTina

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I am all for Holden/Naomi/Drummer going all Sense8 finale in the future, and just embracing an OT3 situation. I can totally get into that. 

I would be down with that, but my first thought was that it would probably end with Drummer just kicking Holden out of the bed, and having Naomi all to herself.

My second thought was that watch that be the time that Proto-Miller decides to break his "I only come out when you are alone" rule, and in the middle of that epic threesome, Holden looks up and just sees Proto-Miller in front of the bed, staring like a Proto-Creep!

Whatever direction they do go though, I really do like the bond between Drummer and Naomi, with the former all "Fine, so what if your boyfriend is taking advice from an invisible dead guy?  I trust you, so I'll back you to the end!", and the latter dropping a fucking elevator to save her comrade.  While I liked the surprise of it, I almost wish we saw Naomi's reaction when she heard what Drummer was planning.  I can just see Holden zipping up and being "Yeah, I think Drummer is going to buy us more time", and Naomi just being "What?!  Fuck that shit!  Out of may!", shoving Holden aside, and begin working on the panel.

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When I first saw the scene with Bobbie and her subordinates I thought she would be okay with her superiors. She was the ranking officer. Her orders were to stop the broadcast. When she realised she knew the people behind the broadcast she decided to achieve her orders through negotiation. The other two attacked without giving her a chance and Bobbie was defending herself when she killed the other marine. Plus if she was the only survivor she could claim they were both killed by Amos. Not that she would. She is too straightforward and honest.

Hopefully we'll get a bit more clarity next season as to whether she was kicked out of the marines or if she realised she just didn't belong there anymore.

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This is quote from the Expanse discussion board on Reddit and, much as I hate to admit it, they have a point.

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I hate to give him credit, but Diogo accidentally saved the day. If he hadn't stolen the Martian power armor, Bobbie and her squad of assholes would have made short work of Amos and Alex and Co, and probably would have caught up with Holden's team soon after as well.

So...thanks I guess?

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“Now I know why you don’t need to carry a gun.”

Awesome moment. Naomi is such an incredible character. I honestly didn't know how much I could love a character until I met her. I loved everything about her this episode.

Also, there’s something to be said about keeping a couple apart for most of the entire season because all the Jim/Naomi moments were beautiful.

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“I still don’t understand what you see.”

Lol. So Drummer was probably talking about Jim’s “visions” of Miller but her delivery and Naomi’s pursed lips in response made it sound like “I still don’t understand what you see [romantically] in this dude.”
The leap to self-annihilation to save the human race went a bit too fast for me. Also detonating that bomb was a stupid idea and I’m disappointed that Ashford (sp?) who so far has come across as (pirate!) savvy, would conclude that. And had that Martian scientist that was coming up with all those ‘bright’ ideas even been established before this episode?

 

On 28/06/2018 at 6:13 AM, marinw said:

Since the civilization is dead, I guess they have no Prime Directive to enforce. Great job not interfering with the development of another civilization!

That's kind of typical for most civilisations. Romans didn't care about the prime directive when they invaded Brittanica, Europeans didn't care when they carved up Africa, etc, etc. 

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Ah, but is it?  Fred Johnson is not a member of the OPA and has no particular love for them.  

Yes, he is and yes, he does. It was established in Season 1 that he cast his lot with the OPA after the UNN made him the Butcher. 

He and Anderson Dawes are sort of frenemies. They're both working for the common good of the Belt, even though they don't agree on their methods.

 

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I know, right? I remember actually liking his character at some point, and then he became a little shit (or maybe he always was one, and his shit-itude shifted into the the "ding dong the little shit is dead!" range.

Agree on all points, and loved "tlsD tm @Netfoot.

tlsD is awesome.

I also liked Diogo in season 1/early season 2. I thought his uncle's death was tragic, and I loved the scenes with Miller, his way of helping Miller lose his self-hatred. But from the moment he helped Dawes steal the protomolecule scientist (where is that ticking time bomb of a monster now anyway?), he became #tlsD.

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26 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I sure got the impressions that Fred had cast aside his Earth citizenship and was working to create a new belter nation -- the Outer Planets Alliance.  There are other people working toward that same goal who do not necessarily share Fred's morals or perspective.  There are some who resent an "earther" (the "Butcher of Anderson Station" in particular) having a leading role in the OPA.  Anderson Dawes is one who thinks he has more of a right to leadership in the OPA than Fred and that's how he justifies kidnapping the proto-molecule scientist from Fred's space station.

My understanding of the situation is that the OPA is a more hard-line, militant group than most average belters.  I think Dawes is more IRA and Johnson is more Sinn Féin.

Johnson may have given up his Earth citizenship, but that doesn't automatically make him OPA.  Dawes on the other hand, not only wants independence, but he supports violence as the way to achieve it.  Which is why Ashford was sent: To gain possession of the biggest warship in Known Space.  For political reasons, and also to have the firepower for the war that Dawes wants.

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1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

It wasn't clear to me if the woman Bobbie fought hand-to-hand (I don't recall Bobbie shooting her) was dead or just unconscious, but actually I hope she's dead.  If so, then there is no one alive who will testify that Bobbie sided with Team Roci in that fire-fight.  The Martians sent three soldiers to stop the broadcast.  They had to go in un-armored because that little shit Diogo stole their gear.  All three got shot/injured in the fight and only Bobbie survived (and whoops, thank goodness they failed in their assignment because that broadcast and the powering-down of the spaceships that resulted from it are the only reason ANYONE in the solar system is left alive.)  So if the woman Bobbie fought ended up dying as a result, I can imagine a scenario wherein Bobbie is given a purple heart for the wound she took in battle and then quietly allowed an honorable discharge.  If that woman survives to tell the tale of turn-coat Bobbie -- well that might end up being a problem.  So I really hope she died.

Yeah, I was going to say (before the Reddit comment) thank goodness tlsD stole the armor or Bobbie and her marines would have stopped the transmission.  So, good job, Diogo?  I don't think the other female marine was dead, it looked to me like Bobbie just knocked her out. In any case Bobbie is too honorable to let Amos or anyone take the blame. She would undoubtably admit to helping the Roci boys and accept the consequences. 

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This episode did highlight something that kinds of bugs me - "Naomi the Super Engineer" able to fix anything in minutes, or maybe half an hour, tops. It is very convenient for the plot, but it's sort of annoying that she can fix any mechanical, electrical or "software" based system. Granted she knows the Roci by now and she'd had some time (the period of time is unstated) with the Behemoth, so at  least they were systems she had some familiarity with.

Also (as someone who is a scientist) - scientists come out of the show all looking like megalomaniacs in varying shades of blind/bad. The guy on the UN ship this episode, the two scientists working for Mao, one on Ceres, the other on Ganymede with the kids.

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9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

By my count Diogo has been called a "little shit" on this board about a dozen times. Seldom does one see such a unanimity of opinion in a discussion board.  :)

 

Which is crazy cause when he popped up last season, I loved the little bugger. He played off Miller so well "Star Helix!" Then he joined up with Andersen officially, helped kidnap Cortazar, and well......The Little Shit Diogo was born.

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yes, he's like a the little bird going "are you my mother" - but instead it's "are you my moral compass?"

I love Amos.

I guess he needed someone new to act as his guiding light. Naomi showed him in probably the worst way that humans are flawed, and that even the ones you think you know can turn around and surprise you.  I think he's been looking for a new compass for a while. Prax was good, but he of course was never meant to stay with the Roci (I would have liked a shot of him and Mei, though. Did they go back to Ganymede?)

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I would be down with that, but my first thought was that it would probably end with Drummer just kicking Holden out of the bed, and having Naomi all to herself.

My second thought was that watch that be the time that Proto-Miller decides to break his "I only come out when you are alone" rule, and in the middle of that epic threesome, Holden looks up and just sees Proto-Miller in front of the bed, staring like a Proto-Creep!

Whatever direction they do go though, I really do like the bond between Drummer and Naomi, with the former all "Fine, so what if your boyfriend is taking advice from an invisible dead guy?  I trust you, so I'll back you to the end!", and the latter dropping a fucking elevator to save her comrade.  While I liked the surprise of it, I almost wish we saw Naomi's reaction when she heard what Drummer was planning.  I can just see Holden zipping up and being "Yeah, I think Drummer is going to buy us more time", and Naomi just being "What?!  Fuck that shit!  Out of may!", shoving Holden aside, and begin working on the panel.

Oh yeah, Drummer would definitely be in that relationship for Naomi, and may god have mercy on Jim if he ever made Naomi cry. 

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1 hour ago, WildPlum said:

"Naomi the Super Engineer" able to fix anything in minutes, or maybe half an hour, tops. It is very convenient for the plot, but it's sort of annoying that she can fix any mechanical, electrical or "software" based system.

 

Every element of a story is plot convenient, by definition. Naomi’s competence was established in the early episodes when she single-handedly kept the damaged Cant shuttle afloat and the crew alive – and given actual textual basis for it (she literally gives her resume when she's being interrogated by the MCRN Donnager, so it's not just some hand-wavey unexplained skillset). Is the Protomolecule selecting Holden as its Messiah/Messenger based on what amounts to a two-day interaction with Miller equally as annoying? Or the OPA salvaging the Nauvoo in time for this expedition when its spin generator became vital?  Or Clarissa Mao just happening to have switched sides and be on the bridge, near Ashford and unrestrained when she was needed to kick ass? 

Edited by ursula
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I think we have to give kudos to the actor playing tlsD.  He did his job and made us all hate him.

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1 hour ago, WildPlum said:

"Naomi the Super Engineer" able to fix anything in minutes, or maybe half an hour,

She wasn't fixing anything in minutes or half an hour. Unless you imagine that it took half an hour for a paralysed Drummer to strap herself into those mechanical braces. Which is actually a good point. There's no episode this season where an echo of "Belter ingenuity at its finest" hasn't been sounded. If Drummer, who's mostly a soldier, can finagle her way mechanically, I imagine that Naomi whose skillset is machines would be more than competent. 

25 minutes ago, ursula said:

she literally gives her resume when she's being interrogated by the MCRN Donnager, so it's not just some hand-wavey unexplained skillset

^THIS. 

The insinuation that Naomi is a Mary Sue because she's competent at the work she's supposed to be competent at is grating and also frustrating. We cry for female representation - competent female characters, women in STEM, etc and you get a Woman of Colour that is both - and immediately start dragging her down. Odd how the accusations of hyper-competence are never levelled on male characters. 

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20 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The insinuation that Naomi is a Mary Sue because she's competent at the work she's supposed to be competent at is grating and also frustrating. We cry for female representation - competent female characters, women in STEM, etc and you get a Woman of Colour that is both - and immediately start dragging her down.

Belters generally, given the environment they live in, should be expected to have more than average competence in technological fields.  I think that Dominique Tipper's youthful appearance might be misleading, but then the Belter life might result in a younger appearance.  

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Odd how the accusations of hyper-competence are never levelled on male characters. 

Sorry, but I beg to differ.  You should hear my rant on Steve McGarrett!

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5 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

. The other two attacked without giving her a chance and Bobbie was defending herself when she killed the other marine. Plus if she was the only survivor she could claim they were both killed by Amos. Not that she would. She is too straightforward and honest.

Yes, I just rewatched and Bobbie tells them to stand down while she talked to Alex.  They didn't.  I also agree that Bobbie would tell the truth about what happened and let the chips fall where they may.  Being as on she's on the Roci at the end, she may have left the MCRN.

49 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

 I think that Dominique Tipper's youthful appearance might be misleading

Though this is true, I think that when DT has to play an engineering scene, she adjusts her body/expressions to be more confident with what she's doing.  I think the series is doing a decent job portraying stretches of time to get things done.   I was actually thinking while watching for the second time how competent in general most of the main characters are; or at least the ones who spend a good deal of time in space.   Which of course you really should be; your life depends on it.   I'm thinking of Drummer hooking herself up to the mech (though she needed Naomi's help at the end); Ashford keying in a code (as Captain, he would have it, but still, he knew what to do) to remove Melba's suppressor.  Usually we are treated to scenes of people flailing or wasting time and then afterwards there's a debate about shouldn't so and so know how to do that?  So I don't find Naomi's competence to be too much.

2 hours ago, WildPlum said:

The guy on the UN ship this episode, the two scientists working for Mao, one on Ceres, the other on Ganymede with the kids.

I didn't think the UN "hey it's Jeffrey Spender from X-Files" scientist came off looking badly.  He was looking for answers and proposed a plan; the wrong plan, but it was thought out.  Ultimately he helped convince the Thomas Prince captain to power down.  They are all in a crisis situation where a lot of co-workers, people with additional knowledge and input, are dead or seriously injured; in that situation sometimes you make your best educated guess and take a leap of faith.  Then of course we had Prax, who's a good guy.

We have seen some bad science types as you say but they were surgically altered to not have consciences.

I laughed when, after Anna stopped Amos shooting Melba, he offers to instead tamper with the autodoc because it would be less painful.  Heh.  The show does do a good job with unexpected pairings.  Kudos to the casting people.

Oh and the matter of fact way Amos tells Anna as she's sitting by a patient "he's dead" when he's going to get some food.  LOL.  I love the deadpan stuff.

One odd point for me was the random group of people we see panicking.  They're all together in some kind of bay watching Anna's transmission.  I kept thinking why don't they leave?  Do they want to go somewhere to sit down?  Then when they're pushing and shoving trying to do....something??  Were they locked in?  Too many to get out?  It was just odd.

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I think we have to give kudos to the actor playing tlsD.  He did his job and made us all hate him

Hee, definitely.  The last character I remember being so universally disliked was Zach on The Strain.    I did at least used to like Diogo; Zach was awful from the beginning.

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Three points . . .

1.  They sure weren't kidding when they titled this The Expanse, were they?

2.  I think Amos is more morally developed than people here realize.  Now and then he has these, "I told you so" moments. 

One of the more intriguing themes of the show is that Amos is developing before our eyes.  E.g., his dynamic with Naomi is surely different now, and it was great to watch the friendship between him and Pax begin and grow.  I'll have to watch again, but I think in his sick-bay scene with Anna when she stays a moment with the dead guy, Amos sort of turns away and rolls his eyes as he says, "I'll bring you back some food."

3. It's the little subtle details and nuances that make this show great, like Amos' facial expression above.  And note his choice of words.  iirc, with Alex it's "grub" but with Anna it's "food."

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1 hour ago, raven said:

I think that when DT has to play an engineering scene, she adjusts her body/expressions to be more confident with what she's doing.

Sure.  But what I was commenting on is when someone is presented as having a string of qualifications that would take 20 years to acquire, but they appear to be 30 years old.  I have no issue with DT's performance - quite the opposite.  In this case, I hand-wave that despite her appearance, she is old enough to have acquired the skill-set, and looks young for her age thanks to the therapeutic value of living in low-G environments.

And yes, the Belters should be highly competent in engineering matters, since, as you say, their lived lives depend upon it.

1 hour ago, raven said:

I did at least used to like Diogo;

I think most viewers did, initially.   That's why I'm with @Haleth.  He made us love him, and then he made us hate him.  To switch us around like that?  A fair degree of talent must be involved!

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45 minutes ago, JZL said:

Three points . . .

1.  They sure weren't kidding when they titled this The Expanse, were they?

2.  I think Amos is more morally developed than people here realize.  Now and then he has these, "I told you so" moments. 

One of the more intriguing themes of the show is that Amos is developing before our eyes.  E.g., his dynamic with Naomi is surely different now, and it was great to watch the friendship between him and Pax begin and grow.  I'll have to watch again, but I think in his sick-bay scene with Anna when she stays a moment with the dead guy, Amos sort of turns away and rolls his eyes as he says, "I'll bring you back some food."

3. It's the little subtle details and nuances that make this show great, like Amos' facial expression above.  And note his choice of words.  iirc, with Alex it's "grub" but with Anna it's "food."

I think it's more that Amos is more morally developed than HE realizes. He keeps looking for a moral compass, but he's actually got a fairly decent one, even if he's deadly practical in some areas.

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That was one of the best finales I've seen in some time. Especially as it might have been meant as a show finale. Too many of those have had weak tacked-on endings just to finalize the show. Things here would have wrapped up nicely. You all know I’m disappointed at Ashford left alive at the end ;-D but I’m glad to see Miller will probably be back next season, even if only in a The Proto and Mr. Holden theme.

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4 hours ago, WildPlum said:

 "Naomi the Super Engineer" able to fix anything in minutes, or maybe half an hour

She's the Scotty of the Roci!

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1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I think it's more that Amos is more morally developed than HE realizes. He keeps looking for a moral compass, but he's actually got a fairly decent one, even if he's deadly practical in some areas.

Good point.  One could say he has the moral compass of one who has known true evil.

Anna is almost his mirror image. 

----------

I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but at the very end, what about that liquid effect as the Roci (and Holden) passed through the ring?  Something came at Holden in just that instant.  Was that Proto-Miller diving into Holden's head to come along for "the ride"?

Edited by JZL
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3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

But what I was commenting on is when someone is presented as having a string of qualifications that would take 20 years to acquire, but they appear to be 30 years old.  

That's not how real life technical skillsets work. Excluding USA's exploitative college system, a college degree in Engineering is 5 years. A diploma in Technology is 4 years or less. That's placing fresh engineers and technicians at the 21-23 age bracket. And most of the 'hard' skills are picked on the job. On an, for example, oil rig, the lower cadre of technicians - the guys who actually get their hands dirty - are the youngest. The older you stay on the job, the more you travel up - into the office and the administrative duties. Experience isn't even sure a huge adavantage this day and age because of how quickly technology becomes obsolete. The young guys end up teaching the old hands the job. 

 

Tl Dr, but if all this applies to 21st century Earth technology, multiply that exponentially to get 30th (?) Century Belter technology where a child probably learns how to finagle with air / water filters as a matter of survival. 30-odd year old Tipper was perfectly cast for the role.

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2 hours ago, JZL said:

 

I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but at the very end, what about that liquid effect as the Roci (and Holden) passed through the ring?  Something came at Holden in just that instant.  Was that Proto-Miller diving into Holden's head to come along for "the ride"?

That's how I took it. He's possessed him! 

?

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14 hours ago, johntfs said:

 While they were on opposite sides with the Ring, Drummer gets that Ashford's intentions were honorable, if incorrect.  I mean, on the face of it, Ashford has the more credible case.  Drummer's response to "Why did you do this?" kind of boils down to "Naomi's boyfriend, the guy who talks to dead people that no one else can see or hear, told us that his maybe imaginary friend told him that's what we had to do." 

 

Did not Ashford believe Holden too at the end there and hence his response to the ring station? When Kolvoord on the UN ship tells him about the Ring's response to their nuke, Ashord connects it to what Holden tells him - Burned whole solar systems like they were cauterizing a wound - and that's why he decides to destroy the Ring.

So in essence both Ashford and Drummer believed Holden about what the Ring can do. Their response was different. Ashford wanted to destroy the ring to protect humankind and Drummer agreed with Holden that not attacking and powering down was the right way to go.

2 hours ago, ursula said:

That's not how real life technical skillsets work. Excluding USA's exploitative college system, a college degree in Engineering is 5 years. A diploma in Technology is 4 years or less. That's placing fresh engineers and technicians at the 21-23 age bracket. And most of the 'hard' skills are picked on the job. On an, for example, oil rig, the lower cadre of technicians - the guys who actually get their hands dirty - are the youngest. The older you stay on the job, the more you travel up - into the office and the administrative duties. Experience isn't even sure a huge adavantage this day and age because of how quickly technology becomes obsolete. The young guys end up teaching the old hands the job.

Tl Dr, but if all this applies to 21st century Earth technology, multiply that exponentially to get 30th (?) Century Belter technology where a child probably learns how to finagle with air / water filters as a matter of survival. 30-odd year old Tipper was perfectly cast for the role.

Yeah, where I am from, we enter college at 16, an engineering degree takes 4 years (Diploma 3 years or less), a master's 2 years and Ph.D about 4 -5 years. By the time we are 28, we are more or less done. Government jobs here actually have an age restriction where if you are above 35, you can't apply for a lot of engineering positions.

Also, this has not been explained on the show, but I think with all the advances in healthcare, the characters are actually a lot older. I think Chrisjen is supposed to be very old and as the books progress the characters age but it's not physically as evident.

So who knows Naomi maybe in her mid thirties or hitting forty. She got her degrees, ran with the OPA for a while, had a kid, met Amos sometime, was in the Canterbury for a while etc. All of the Roci crew have a ton of backstory that the show has not yet scratched.

Watch Diego turn up again next season. He looks like the running gag of the show. No matter what happens to him - getting spaced, arrested, or crushed by an elevator - Diego makes it. I am thinking his power armor protects him ?

I hope we see more of Mars next season. Not impressed with the Martian marines apart from Bobbie. We have seen conflict between earth officials and Belter factions so it would be nice to explore more of Mars. But I am guessing with the rings appearing we are going to get a 'blood soaked gold rush' as all the factions go exploring.

Curious about the status of the Roci. I am guessing they are not going to get paid for the Roci Documentary. And now Bobbie - who killed a marine - is with them. I guess they are going to continue being outlaws from the Martians.

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9 hours ago, anamika said:

Curious about the status of the Roci. I am guessing they are not going to get paid for the Roci Documentary

I think Holden sold the Razorback. This is not a Star Trek Post-Money economy, Maybe the Ring will change that.

9 hours ago, anamika said:

hope we see more of Mars next season.

Me too.  I want to see how their society Is put together and how their terraforming efforts are coming along. Another thing the ring can change.

As for the Ring, I’m not sure if everyone can come and go as they please.  There is going to be some pretty heavy security around it. Or maybe not…

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6 hours ago, ursula said:
Quote

But what I was commenting on is when someone is presented as having a string of qualifications that would take 20 years to acquire, but they appear to be 30 years old. 

That's not how real life technical skillsets work. Excluding USA's exploitative college system, a college degree in Engineering is 5 years. A diploma in Technology is 4 years or less. That's placing fresh engineers and technicians at the 21-23 age bracket.

My remark may not apply specifically to Naomi Nagata, but I was thinking of a character who is a skilled carpenter, knows every nut and bolt in every engine ever built, can fly any type of aircraft made from bi-planes to helicopters to jets, used to be a submarine driver, is an ex Navy SEAL, former climber of Everest, experienced HALO parachutist, published poet...

As @WildPlum mentioned above, Naomi is an apparent expert in mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and also software engineering.  It wouldn't be impossible to become qualified in all these things by the time she's 30, but it wouldn't be easy to do so and become chief on a gigantic ice-hauler as well.  As I said, I handwave that unlike Dominique who is around 30, Naomi is actually older, but appears young for her age

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59 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

As @WildPlum mentioned above, Naomi is an apparent expert in mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and also software engineering.  It wouldn't be impossible to become qualified in all these things by the time she's 30, but it wouldn't be easy to do so and become chief on a gigantic ice-hauler as well.  As I said, I handwave that unlike Dominique who is around 30, Naomi is actually older, but appears young for her age

Actually, you don't need x3 years to end degrees in EE, ME and CP because these are all overlapping disciplines. You  just need an additional year or two for each. (Software doesn't even count because you can literally learn coding in your spare time without even understanding how the code does what it does). Plus, Naomi’s job is to maintain a running facility not build one from scratch. (Tycho Station. Also, there's actually a huge rivalry between "engineering" and "maintenance" because the maintenance guys have to work with what the engineers build and both camps think the other guys are over-rated whiners). And in practice, you leave college with a degree in - say - Electrical Engineering, and end up working on a compressor station and doing the work of the electrical engineer, the instrument engineer, the mechanical engineer and even the process engineer.  

Being ‘chief’ mostly means being the guy in charge of assigning work orders, allocating budget to what gets fixed first, and evaluating performance. 

And again - that's not even taking in the context of this story. Where technology is probably extremely standardised because who wants the availability of Brand Name Adaptor to be what decides between life and death? Where Belters, as a matter of survival, learn how to manipulate heavy machinery from a very young age, and are probably pushed into the workforce from said young age. Where everyone has to be technically savvy, even soldiers like Drummer, to survive. I don't imagine there are a lot of Literature or Performing Arts schools in the Belt. 

 

I'm pedantic on this topic because this is actually something I do and it always irritates me that pseudo-science shows tend to (not Expanse, obviously) mystify Engineering as a career/discipline that is only attainable by genius-level prodigies or Albert Einstein-looking old men. And yes, Naomi is a prodigy. But even without that, it's not unrealistic that she's where she is professionally at her age. There's nothing to hand-wave. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

As I said, I handwave that unlike Dominique who is around 30, Naomi is actually older, but appears young for her age

Living conditions in the Belt are so harsh that it's more likely that the Belters we see are younger than they look. 

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9 hours ago, JZL said:

Good point.  One could say he has the moral compass of one who has known true evil.

Anna is almost his mirror image. 

----------

I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but at the very end, what about that liquid effect as the Roci (and Holden) passed through the ring?  Something came at Holden in just that instant.  Was that Proto-Miller diving into Holden's head to come along for "the ride"?

 

Yeah, I thought Proto-Miller was hitching a ride too.

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Did not Ashford believe Holden too at the end there and hence his response to the ring station? When Kolvoord on the UN ship tells him about the Ring's response to their nuke, Ashord connects it to what Holden tells him - Burned whole solar systems like they were cauterizing a wound - and that's why he decides to destroy the Ring.

So in essence both Ashford and Drummer believed Holden about what the Ring can do. Their response was different. Ashford wanted to destroy the ring to protect humankind and Drummer agreed with Holden that not attacking and powering down was the right way to go.

----

Watch Diego turn up again next season. He looks like the running gag of the show. No matter what happens to him - getting spaced, arrested, or crushed by an elevator - Diego makes it. I am thinking his power armor protects him ?

I hope we see more of Mars next season. Not impressed with the Martian marines apart from Bobbie. We have seen conflict between earth officials and Belter factions so it would be nice to explore more of Mars. But I am guessing with the rings appearing we are going to get a 'blood soaked gold rush' as all the factions go exploring.

Curious about the status of the Roci. I am guessing they are not going to get paid for the Roci Documentary. And now Bobbie - who killed a marine - is with them. I guess they are going to continue being outlaws from the Martians.

 

I think Ashford and Drummer's responses were different because they heard Holden at different times - Ashford didn't hear Holden's "let's not attack and power down" - but he remembered the cauterizing quote from his initial encounter after the sphere started gearing up for attack.

So you're saying tlsD will become Wiley Coyote? That's okay, I could watch him "die" a thousand times. Though as we saw on Ganymede, those suits aren't completely impervious, and I think perhaps being squashed by an elevator at that speed might just do the trick.

I'd like to see Mars more too. We've spent time everywhere but there.

I'm kind of thinking that it's going to be "what happened at the Ring stays at the Ring" because few coated themselves in glory. So I think Bobbi's okay, and the Roci is "payment" for saving everyone's hides.

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7 hours ago, anamika said:

Did not Ashford believe Holden too at the end there and hence his response to the ring station? When Kolvoord on the UN ship tells him about the Ring's response to their nuke, Ashord connects it to what Holden tells him - Burned whole solar systems like they were cauterizing a wound - and that's why he decides to destroy the Ring.

Not at first.  Initially Ashford had Holden locked up because he thought Holden was a dangerous nutcase.  It was only after they set off their science nuke and saw that the station was clearly building up power to do Something, that Ashford recalled Holden's warning about buring solar systems

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14 hours ago, Holmbo said:

 

16 hours ago, JZL said:

 

I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but at the very end, what about that liquid effect as the Roci (and Holden) passed through the ring?  Something came at Holden in just that instant.  Was that Proto-Miller diving into Holden's head to come along for "the ride"?

 

That's how I took it. He's possessed him! 

I don't think that is what happened.  I think that Holden saw some "thing" in that moment.  And I suspect that whatever it was that Holden glimpsed may have something to do with the scary visions he saw wherein solar systems were destroyed.  Weren't Holden's eyes different after the effect?  I'm afraid you may be right that Holden is now possessed by something but, alas, I don't think it's Miller.  (Note, I haven't read ahead -- pure speculation here.) But if Holden WAS affected in that moment then you have to ask yourself if everyone who travels through the barrier was affected or did it only happen to a few?  Or did it only happen to Holden because he completed the circuit an so the ring "knows" him?

Tune in next year, same bat-time, DIFFERENT bat-channel.  I can't wait.

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1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Not at first.  Initially Ashford had Holden locked up because he thought Holden was a dangerous nutcase.  It was only after they set off their science nuke and saw that the station was clearly building up power to do Something, that Ashford recalled Holden's warning about buring solar systems

Precisely. So Ashford cannot discount Drummer's account because she believes in a 'guy who sees dead people and talks to his imaginary friend' when he knows that Holden was right about the ring.  Ashford connects Kolvoord's ring data after the nuke goes off to Holden's warning and realizes that Holden is telling the truth. Right after which Drummer calls him and lets him know that Holden knows a way to talk the Ring down from destroying them. Ashford should have listened to her then - because by then he knew Holden was right about the Ring's danger. But instead he decided to stick with his plan of blowing everything up while Drummer decided to take the chance that Holden knew what he was doing.

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think Ashford and Drummer's responses were different because they heard Holden at different times - Ashford didn't hear Holden's "let's not attack and power down" - but he remembered the cauterizing quote from his initial encounter after the sphere started gearing up for attack.

True, but Drummer did call Ashford up and let him know that Holden had a different plan. Ashford should have considered it. But by then, I guess he was too far into his 'blow everything up to save humanity' plan.

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I thought the episodes were fabulous.  I'm a little tired of Holdon's soppy face (I think that's the actor's constant sort of weepy, snotty, desperation look and it's not great for me) but I get that he's been through hell and back again.  Ashford ultimately made a big mistake but what I love about this series (I never read the books) is that all the characters are gray rather than just black and white.* So, Ashford is redeemable.  *Melba/Clarissa's turn of allegiance aside -- I found her one note and utterly cliche.  Didn't like the character and found the actress only slightly better.  She reminded me a lot of the main character's girlfriend on Mindhunter.  One note and with an actress not capable of giving much depth credibly.

I couldn't love the actor and the character of Amos more than I do right now.  It wouldn't be possible.  He's a shining example of someone given a dangerously one note character and yet brings him absolutely to light.  A guy who is by definition black and white becomes a kaleidoscope by virtue of a great performance.  

I'm glad the show was picked up for another season (as others mention, this would have been a fine end) and I'm wonderfully glad that Miller had a wrap up scene.  (He reminds me a lot of the Irish vampire on Preacher.  There is definitely a "type" of character running around television right now and I'm delighted.  I find them charming and amusing.  With a soupçon of gravity and angst.  It's kind of a modern twist on the traditional noir flatfoot and I love it.)

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2 hours ago, anamika said:

True, but Drummer did call Ashford up and let him know that Holden had a different plan. Ashford should have considered it. But by then, I guess he was too far into his 'blow everything up to save humanity' plan.

True enough, but I think you're also right that he was so far into his plan he really didn't "hear" anything else from anyone. Very human, very scary.

2 hours ago, Captanne said:

I thought the episodes were fabulous.  I'm a little tired of Holdon's soppy face (I think that's the actor's constant sort of weepy, snotty, desperation look and it's not great for me) but I get that he's been through hell and back again.  Ashford ultimately made a big mistake but what I love about this series (I never read the books) is that all the characters are gray rather than just black and white.* So, Ashford is redeemable.  *Melba/Clarissa's turn of allegiance aside -- I found her one note and utterly cliche.  Didn't like the character and found the actress only slightly better.  She reminded me a lot of the main character's girlfriend on Mindhunter.  One note and with an actress not capable of giving much depth credibly.

I couldn't love the actor and the character of Amos more than I do right now.  It wouldn't be possible.  He's a shining example of someone given a dangerously one note character and yet brings him absolutely to light.  A guy who is by definition black and white becomes a kaleidoscope by virtue of a great performance.  

I'm glad the show was picked up for another season (as others mention, this would have been a fine end) and I'm wonderfully glad that Miller had a wrap up scene.  (He reminds me a lot of the Irish vampire on Preacher.  There is definitely a "type" of character running around television right now and I'm delighted.  I find them charming and amusing.  With a soupçon of gravity and angst.  It's kind of a modern twist on the traditional noir flatfoot and I love it.)

Well now, that's one of the most beautiful lines I've read since I've been on the forums. Kudos.

I can see the Mindhunter reference too - you may be right on that one.

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11 hours ago, anamika said:

 

Watch Diego turn up again next season. He looks like the running gag of the show. No matter what happens to him - getting spaced, arrested, or crushed by an elevator - Diego makes it. I am thinking his power armor protects him ?

 

11 hours ago, anamika said:

I hope so. I know Diego is still a little shit, but I still like him

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This thread is on fire! So much discussion still. 

Maybe I'm just morbid but I'd been OK with Bobbie dying in this finale. She's one of my favorite characters, so I would have been sad about it, but this universe is dangerous and sometimes people die. It's not always gonna be Grigoris or tlsD (though I do like the proposal above that they just keep bringing him back to kill him in new ways) And Bobbie has had a good arc from where she started, which came to a conclusion this finale. 

Now, if Drummer died, that would've sucked. She's only at the very beginning of her growth I feel. In regards to her experience as a captain, and her view on Belters independence.

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I tend to be handwavey about a lot of technical stuff due to what James Callis once referred to in a BSG commentary as "the tragedy of verisimilitude" - showing the details of how many commonplace things are done derails from the storyline and some things you just have to take as they are. 

On rewatch, I love how DT has Naomi's Belter accent come out more strongly when she's around other Belters. It's a great acting choice on her part.

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21 hours ago, raven said:

Yes, I just rewatched and Bobbie tells them to stand down while she talked to Alex.  They didn't.  I also agree that Bobbie would tell the truth about what happened and let the chips fall where they may.  Being as on she's on the Roci at the end, she may have left the MCRN.

Though this is true, I think that when DT has to play an engineering scene, she adjusts her body/expressions to be more confident with what she's doing.  I think the series is doing a decent job portraying stretches of time to get things done.   I was actually thinking while watching for the second time how competent in general most of the main characters are; or at least the ones who spend a good deal of time in space.   Which of course you really should be; your life depends on it.   I'm thinking of Drummer hooking herself up to the mech (though she needed Naomi's help at the end); Ashford keying in a code (as Captain, he would have it, but still, he knew what to do) to remove Melba's suppressor.  Usually we are treated to scenes of people flailing or wasting time and then afterwards there's a debate about shouldn't so and so know how to do that?  So I don't find Naomi's competence to be too much.

I didn't think the UN "hey it's Jeffrey Spender from X-Files" scientist came off looking badly.  He was looking for answers and proposed a plan; the wrong plan, but it was thought out.  Ultimately he helped convince the Thomas Prince captain to power down.  They are all in a crisis situation where a lot of co-workers, people with additional knowledge and input, are dead or seriously injured; in that situation sometimes you make your best educated guess and take a leap of faith.  Then of course we had Prax, who's a good guy.

We have seen some bad science types as you say but they were surgically altered to not have consciences.

I laughed when, after Anna stopped Amos shooting Melba, he offers to instead tamper with the autodoc because it would be less painful.  Heh.  The show does do a good job with unexpected pairings.  Kudos to the casting people.

Oh and the matter of fact way Amos tells Anna as she's sitting by a patient "he's dead" when he's going to get some food.  LOL.  I love the deadpan stuff.

One odd point for me was the random group of people we see panicking.  They're all together in some kind of bay watching Anna's transmission.  I kept thinking why don't they leave?  Do they want to go somewhere to sit down?  Then when they're pushing and shoving trying to do....something??  Were they locked in?  Too many to get out?  It was just odd.

Hee, definitely.  The last character I remember being so universally disliked was Zach on The Strain.    I did at least used to like Diogo; Zach was awful from the beginning.

I still had a soft spot for Diogo. He reminded me of a lot of the boys I grew up with. He wasn't so much born bad he just never had a chance to be good.

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8 hours ago, anamika said:

Precisely. So Ashford cannot discount Drummer's account because she believes in a 'guy who sees dead people and talks to his imaginary friend' when he knows that Holden was right about the ring.  Ashford connects Kolvoord's ring data after the nuke goes off to Holden's warning and realizes that Holden is telling the truth. Right after which Drummer calls him and lets him know that Holden knows a way to talk the Ring down from destroying them. Ashford should have listened to her then - because by then he knew Holden was right about the Ring's danger. But instead he decided to stick with his plan of blowing everything up while Drummer decided to take the chance that Holden knew what he was doing.

Except that Holden was seeing and talking to Miller before he went to the station.  Bobbie and the other marines heard it.  If Drummer could see Holden yelling for Miller, Ashford could call up the same footage.  Figure since he was working closely with the other commanders, the Martian commander would have told him about Holden's weirdness.  Beyond that, he can't even be sure that person in James Holden's body even is James Holden.  Pretty much everyone knows about the proto-molecule and the horrible shit it does - especially Belters because of Eros.

Plus, it's not like Ashford wanted to kill himself and thousands of other people through the slow death of suffocation and starvation that would come when supplies ran out.  He did it because that was the only way to save the rest of humanity.  So, he made his decision and kept a white-knuckle death grip on it, because that's the only way he could do this without going insane from doubt.

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2 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I still had a soft spot for Diogo. He reminded me of a lot of the boys I grew up with. He wasn't so much born bad he just never had a chance to be good.

I don't think Diogo is even a morally bad person. His uncle's suicide run radicalised him and he puts blind faith in people that he believes are good leaders (Dawes, Ashford), which is actually understandable and even sympathetic. 

His real crime is... he's annoying. He's so annoying. OMG! His shitty little smirk just begs someone to knock it off. 

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7 hours ago, johntfs said:

Plus, it's not like Ashford wanted to kill himself and thousands of other people through the slow death of suffocation and starvation that would come when supplies ran out.  He did it because that was the only way to save the rest of humanity.  So, he made his decision and kept a white-knuckle death grip on it, because that's the only way he could do this without going insane from doubt.

That's a good take on it.


It's important to keep in mind that after he decides to destroy the ring, in his mind he and everyone else there is already dead. So actually I change my mind about him killing Grigori. I'm sure he would have shot himself too without a moments doubt, if he thought it would help. I do think he should feel guilty though. Hopefully they will explore some of that next season, if he just shrugs it of I'll be annoyed.

 

Another insight into Ashford's character is the speech he gives when he talks about leaving the world a better place for their children. I wish I had the exact quote of it but I don't remember when he says it so I can't look it up. It was something like Every parent knows they must make the world better for their children. But his child is already dead. So it made me wonder if the reason he joined up with Anderson Dawes was that he was drawn to Dawes story about seeing all the Belters as his brothers and sisters.


 

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