S03.E12: Congregation / S03.E13: Abaddon's Gate

[raven]

2 hour 1.5 hour season finale!

Quote

As survivors arrive to the Behemoth, two factions form over how to handle a life-or-death threat. Holden grapples with what he's seen and the choices he must make.

Holden and his allies must stop a team from destroying the Ring, and perhaps all of humanity.

[raven]

No book spoilers; that includes references such as "it's different/same in the books".

[raven]

Drummer lives yayyyyyy.  I was really worried.  Diogo gets smashed yayyyyyyyy.  Amos & Anna bonding was fantastic.   Bobbie and Alex trusting each other.  Holden and Naomi "sniff"

Drummer bringing a drink to Ashford at the end was perfect. 

If the cancellation had stood this would have worked as a series finale but I'm so glad we have more coming.

"I'm gonna need a ride". 

[WatchrTina]

OMG that was SO GOOD.  I'm going to have to watch it again a time or two to digest it all so I'm just jumping in to say that I haven't been captivated by a TV show like that in a very long time.  I pulled a chair up in front of my TV for a theater-like experience and to ensure that I gave it my undivided attention (no playing Candy Crush while I watched, no sireee, not this time.) 

I think my two favorite moments were when the elevator took out that little shit Diogo and this exchange:

Alex:  "Bobbie?"

Bobbie:  "Alex?"

Alex: "Shit!"

I also kind of loved it when Monica said, "You should have led with that."

Edited June 28, 2018 by WatchrTina

[marinw]

17 minutes ago, raven said:

Diogo gets smashed yayyyyyyyy.

That was perfect.

I'm worried about Drummer. She's earned a nice coma to heal properly.

Edited June 28, 2018 by marinw

[nekilarose]

I must have said "Diogo, you little shit" a thousand times tonight. But he got what was coming to him. Speaking of...……All Hail my Captain Camina Drummer!! Woman is seriously bad-ass. I was damn near screaming when I thought she was gonna sacrifice herself to handle that little shit Diogo. Holden will have to get used to sharing his girlfriend. 

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Alex:  "Bobbie?"

Bobbie:  "Alex?"

I died laughing at that part. Also when Holden was talking to Proto-Miller and it cut to Drummer looking at Naomi like "seriously, this is why you left me?" 

Anna and Amos together was awesome! "You know he's dead, right?" But when he told her he wasn't gonna let anything happen to her.....swoon.

Oh God Holden, when "Melba" was brought to the brig, and he's being his normal "Holden" self. He would make friends with the person who tried to kill him. I'm so glad this got picked up!

[thuganomics85]

So.... am I a horrible person for laughing a good minute when Diogo got crushed by the elevator?  Because that was totally what I was doing.  I think it was the combination of it being so unexpected, the relief that Drummer wasn't going to die (boy, they had me there for a good few seconds), and showing just how awesome and inventive Naomi is.  Well, that and also because Diego is/was an asshole and a half.  A fitting end for that little shit!

Pretty good finale, although I did think they rushed a few things.  While I'm glad they ended up making Ashford more layered then I predicted and him even living is a nice twist, but I wish there was more build-up to him being so gung-ho about destroying the ring that he wouldn't even listen to anyone else's plan, including Drummer, who despite their issues, clearly respected in last week's episode.  I know they explained that he thought that it was a ticking time bomb and, again, I do think they they did a good job at making him not an one dimensional antagonist since he truly did think he was doing what was right for the Belters and even humanity, but it just felt a bit too rushed.

Also, Melba/Clarissa's turn was predictable since she clearly seemed to be regretting her choices after she realized that Holden wasn't the devil that she thought he was.  Hopefully she'll still face consequences for her actions because while preventing Ashford's plan was the right thing to do, she has still killed numerous people all for her quest to prove her mean dad wrong.  That said, since the show pretty much had Anna calling out her bullshit throughout all of the episode, I think this show is aware of this.

Oh, shit, Fancy from Killjoys is here!  I really love how many actors from that show have been appearing.  They just need to get Rob Stewart in this joint!  Or Hannah John-Kamen, assuming she has time between all of these new shiny movie roles she's been getting (looking forward to seeing her in Ant-Man and the Wasp.)

I still love how they find ways to work in some humor like Alex and Bobbie's exchange and especially seeing Holden communicate with Proto-Miller from Naomi and Drummer's perspective.  Capped off with Drummer's "I don't know what you see in him" like retort.

Glad to see Monica did get back and even played a part in saving the day.

Amos and Anna was everything I wanted.

I know Christmas is months away, but all I want for now is for Cara Gee to be made a regular next season.  She and Drummer have simply become a standout: not just on this show, but out of all of the sci-fi genre.

Glad we got a brief shot of Chrisjen, but I do hope they find ways to keep her relevant going forward.

I guess that final exchange between Holden and Proto-Miller means the latter will be sticking around for a bit longer.  Might suck a little for Holden, but that is good news for me!

So glad that Amazon is going to let this show continue.  This is truly becoming one of my favorite sci-fi shows and in a just world, it will be still remembered years from now.  Congrats to everyone involved and here is to hopefully a few more great seasons!

Edited June 28, 2018 by thuganomics85

[WatchrTina]

One thing that I loved is that the method Clarrisa/Melba used to shut down the reactor was introduced during her first episode.  I was wondering how they were going to get it done (since team Roci got chased out of the control room.)  I like that -- they introduced the failsafe shutdown (happens automatically if you put in one of those gizmos backward) and then waited several episodes before paying it off.  Cool.

Edited June 28, 2018 by WatchrTina

[mjc570]

While there was so much to like, I think one of my favorite moments was the look on Clarissa's face when she realizes that James Holden - the man she dedicated her life to destroying, for whom she murdered her way through the galaxy -was right across the room from her.  Having her listen in on James and Naomi's conversation  t was a nice way of getting her to realize that he was not the monster she thought.

I'm Team Drummer all the way.  I guess I like little moments, like the look of relief on her face in the no-gravity tube (or whatever that was).

[steelyis]

3 hours ago, nekilarose said:

I must have said "Diogo, you little shit" a thousand times tonight. But he got what was coming to him. Speaking of...……All Hail my Captain Camina Drummer!! Woman is seriously bad-ass. I was damn near screaming when I thought she was gonna sacrifice herself to handle that little shit Diogo. Holden will have to get used to sharing his girlfriend. 

Diogo died so Queen Drummer could live!

 

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess that final exchange between Holden and Proto-Miller means the latter will be sticking around for a bit longer.  Might suck a little for Holden, but that is good news for me!

Can never have enough Miller.

 

Welcome aboard the Roci, Bobbie!

 

Next season (Thank you, Amazon) is going to be lit!

[marinw]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, shit, Fancy from Killjoys is here! 

That's who that was! Thank you. That actor dosn't get enough airtime on Killjoys.

Random thoughts:

Since the civilization is dead, I guess they have no Prime Directive to enforce. Great job not interfering with the development of another civilization!

I hope the fleet took note of which portal is theirs before heading back to normal space-it would be so easy to get lost.

Those poor Mormans-They build a generation ship, have it stolen and converted to a war ship, and now no one needs a generation ship because there’s a freaking stargate.

Great CGI for the Behemoth/Nauvoo. That mother is BIG.

[snowwhyte]

I'm glad Melba had a change of heart and helped save them in the end. However, I do not agree with Ashford that one good act can bring redemption for someone who murdered innocent people on a quest for vengeance. I don't think saving more lives than you've taken can balance the scales especially if the good acts are motivated by guilt. 

[Miles]

Well that was an amazing finale to an amazing season of an amazing show! So glad amazon picked it up and we get to see how this continues.

 

3 hours ago, marinw said:

Those poor Mormans-They build a generation ship, have it stolen and converted to a war ship, and now no one needs a generation ship because there’s a freaking stargate.

I mean this was really the best outcome for them, wasn't it? Hadn't the ship been stolen from them, this likely would have gone sideways. Now there are stargetes to countless habitable systems. They can get there in days instead of decades or centuries. God must really want them colonising other star systems, from their perspective. It couldn't have gone any better. So he must have guided events.

 

1 hour ago, snowwhyte said:

I'm glad Melba had a change of heart and helped save them in the end. However, I do not agree with Ashford that one good act can bring redemption for someone who murdered innocent people on a quest for vengeance. I don't think saving more lives than you've taken can balance the scales especially if the good acts are motivated by guilt. 

He said he'd like to think so. He doesn't believe in it himself. He just wishes he could.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Miles

[showme]

My only complaint is there is not enough of naked Holden, I want to see more.

Oh, and that Ashford is not in jail for his stupidity and the cold blooded killing of a crew member who dared to speak up.

[CheetaraThunder]

5 minutes ago, showme said:

My only complaint is there is not enough of naked Holden, I want to see more.

Oh, and that Ashford is not in jail for his stupidity and the cold blooded killing of a crew member who dared to speak up.

Well, I expect you will get your wish when Expanse returns next season on Amazon...no censorship...more beautiful nudity.

 

plus, a mai the only one on board for like a OT3/threesome with Holden/Naomi/Drummer? I’ve grown to truly love Naomi/Holden: credit the writers and especially Steven/Dominique for changing my mind,but I love the dynamics between Holden/Drummer and Drummer/Naomi; the intensity man.... 

[Miles]

18 minutes ago, showme said:

My only complaint is there is not enough of naked Holden, I want to see more.

I mean, naked Holden is nice and all, but naked Amos is where it's at.

 

18 minutes ago, showme said:

Oh, and that Ashford is not in jail for his stupidity and the cold blooded killing of a crew member who dared to speak up.

I wanted to say "well it was incitement to mutiny", but really, at that point Drummer, the real captain of the ship, was back up on her feet. So he was the mutineer. He really should be in jail or shot, not get a drink.

 

10 minutes ago, CheetaraThunder said:

plus, a mai the only one on board for like a OT3/threesome with Holden/Naomi/Drummer? I’ve grown to truly love Naomi/Holden: credit the writers and especially Steven/Dominique for changing my mind,but I love the dynamics between Holden/Drummer and Drummer/Naomi; the intensity man.... 

Amos/Holden/Alex is the one true threesome on the Rossi!

Edited June 28, 2018 by Miles

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

I'm glad Melba had a change of heart and helped save them in the end. However, I do not agree with Ashford that one good act can bring redemption for someone who murdered innocent people on a quest for vengeance. I don't think saving more lives than you've taken can balance the scales especially if the good acts are motivated by guilt. 

 

57 minutes ago, Miles said:

He said he'd like to think so. He doesn't believe in it himself. He just wishes he could.

 

This is one reason I love this show - it's not afraid of complexity in its characters.  I think part of what drove Melba and Ashford was a desire to be remembered as being more than the people they'd been.  Ashford wanted to be more than Anderson Dawes' scavenger.  Melba wanted to be more than just "that crazy Mao party-girl bitch who tried to kill James Holden by killing a shitload of people other than James Holden."  So there's that.  But there's more.  During Naomi's conversation with Holden Melba realized that she was wrong, absolutely wrong, in every possible way.  When you get hit in the skull by that kind of moral shithammer, you either die, go nuts, or redirect all of your energies into going in the opposite direction. I think Melba expected to die when she made her move.  She probably even hoped for it some.  At least then her story would have ended with the closest thing to a "happy ending" she was likely to get.  Except the universe isn't that kind.  Or that dull.  Melba gets to live with the consequences of her actions.  All of them.  And I suspect that those consequences will take forms she never would have expected.

 

As for Ashford, let's recall that however it seemed, he wasn't the villain.  There were no real villains (except maybe Melba and "the little shit.")  See, this wasn't a story of Good vs. Evil.  That was last season, with Mao and Errinwright.  This was a battle of Good vs. Good.  Ashford was utterly convinced that the plan he was enacting was the only way to save the whole human race from extinction within the next 7 hours.  He certainly wasn't doing this for himself.  He was going to die.  Almost everyone he knew and cared about was going to die.  With the loss of the Behemoth, it's very likely the Belt would return to being second class citizens to Earth and Mars.  But Ashford was willing to pay those desperately steep costs.  He was willing to die and kill to see his plan through because that was the only realistic option that saw the human race still in existence in 8 hours.

That's why the Drummer came to him at the end with drinks instead of cuffs or a firing squad.  Because Ashford was wrong in the sense of being incorrect about what needed to be done and not wrong in the sense of being bad, selfish or evil.  If you squint a little, this story was a bit like a higher stakes, space-based version of Crimson Tide.

Edited June 28, 2018 by johntfs

[CheetaraThunder]

55 minutes ago, Miles said:

I mean, naked Holden is nice and all, but naked Amos is where it's at.

 

I wanted to say "well it was incitement to mutiny", but really, at that point Drummer, the real captain of the ship, was back up on her feet. So he was the mutineer. He really should be in jail or shot, not get a drink.

 

Amos/Holden/Alex is the one true threesome on the Rossi!

I mean not wrong on either posts...all about equal opportunity nakedness....

 

And that’s a great one too...hell the whole crew is amazing and hot lol.

[Holmbo]

A riveting finale! I have a hard time reacting to it though because I'm still trying to digest the ending. Is this the end of the show as we know it? Next season people could be all over the universe. I feel hesitant about it. I like the realism of this show, with a hint of alien. But I suppose that's a bit premature to worry about.

The only thing else I have for the moment is that I didn't understand that Diogo was killed, before I saw the comments in this thread. I was thinking his Martian suit would protect him I suppose. Good riddance. Why was he even so high in command? Feels political rather than based on any kind of merit.

Also, I love Drummer.

[marinw]

It’s nice that Bobbie seems to have quickly recovered from her wounds (again) and is back on the Roci. She never seemed to reintegrate into the Martian Marine core, the way Naomi was never was able to fully rejoin the Belters. Some nice subtle acting by Frankie Adams.

Edited June 28, 2018 by marinw

[Netfoot]

Fabulous!  

Drummer, with blood all over her face, her nose swollen up like a tomato, a grenade in each hand and a look of determination on her face - a look that switches to amazement when the lift swats tlsD - was just the greatest.

So sorry this season is over... but at least now I can resume reading!

[Joimiaroxeu]

That was amazing. I love how Holden and Naomi believe in each other even when it's really, really hard. Drummer is practically indestructible! And we got a Chrisjen sighting. Yay!

Is it possible a scene or two was added after the deal was struck with Amazon? I feel like those final moments with Drummer offering Ashford a drink and Holden meeting up with Miller might've been added to give us an idea how some things might be in the next season. Assuming all those actors get contracts again, that is.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[marinw]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

 

8 hours ago, marinw said:

Those poor Mormans-They build a generation ship, have it stolen and converted to a war ship, and now no one needs a generation ship because there’s a freaking stargate.

I mean this was really the best outcome for them, wasn't it? Hadn't the ship been stolen from them, this likely would have gone sideways. Now there are stargetes to countless habitable systems. They can get there in days instead of decades or centuries. God must really want them colonising other star systems, from their perspective. It couldn't have gone any better. So he must have guided events.

 

That’s a wonderful way of looking at it-the Morman ship DID find a way to reach another solar system, just not the way that was expected.

[spritz]

I was surprised there were so few commercial breaks for this finale. Only 1.5 hours for 2 episodes. It was as though SyFy wanted to do away with this show as quickly as possible, since the show won't be back on the channel.

 

The finale was a good conclusion, for now at least.

 

I found it annoying at first, but Drummer's and Ashford's accents kind of grew on me. Some of the lingo that the Belters use, like Bossman, is amusing. 

[Holmbo]

Some more thoughts in no particular order.

I love how much we got to see of the Behemoth. Even though we've seen it from the outside plenty of times, this is the first time I could really feel the immensity of the inside space. When they were going around in the lifts, and the Belters running to the reactor. Also in shot with all the ships arranged in a circle, it was humongous compared to the other.
 

4 hours ago, showme said:

Oh, and that Ashford is not in jail for his stupidity and the cold blooded killing of a crew member who dared to speak up.

Agreed. That was taken way to lightly IMO. It feels weird that just cause the guy was just a side character we should not care. I get why Ashford did it but I think Drummer need to punish him for that. Plus, he kinda mutinied on her.

All the zero G stuff was great. It's strange because I've never really watched a sci-fi show before and I feel like I'm noticing the space effects more and more. They are doing some things we've not seen before, but I also feel like I'm paying more attention to it.

Loved all the Drummer scenes. We've seen her be badass before so what really hit home for me was her break down on the gurney.

I wished I cared more about Melba but even her change of heart didn't hold my interest.

I wonder if this is the last time we see Anna. She has no reason to stick around in space anymore. Unless first episode of season four starts with the ships getting intercepted by some people by a whole other agenda that's keeping her from earth.

The handling of Monica as the news reporter of the catastrophe was very interesting I think. At first I was really annoyed at her, who are you helping by riling everyone up like that? But actually when we see how it plays out it was a really good thing she had been so critical before. That would make it easier for everyone to trust her when she really was vouching for someone.

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God my heart! That was so intense! So glad that everyone I love actually lived, and we have another amazing season for us to enjoy! Next season is gonna be the Wild West and I love it already! 

It was super intense, but I love how they always add in some comic relief to lighten things up, like the "Boobi?" "Alex" exchange,, Drummer reacting to Holden talking to Miller, or Amos misunderstanding Anna when she told him not to shoot Melba. He was just like "alright, I dont need to shoot her. I can give her an overdose instead." Amos and Anna interactions were all great. Such different people, but can still kind of see each other as fundamentally on the same team. And it looks like Amos and Naomi are back to being besties! 

I am all for Holden/Naomi/Drummer going all Sense8 finale in the future, and just embracing an OT3 situation. I can totally get into that. 

I like how they ended up using Monica. She was kind of an annoyance at first, but she came through as a journalist in the end. What I love about this whole finale was there wernt really "villains", just people doing what they thought was best, even if they crossed lines to do that. The most obvious villain was Melba, and even she had a change of heart when she finally realized she had totally gone dark side. Ashford was the "bad guy" but even he really thought he was doing the right thing. 

Next time I meet someone who I just cant deal with, I plan on just asking them if they have a brain tumor that explains their asshole behavior. 

[capt planet]

Damn, what a show! Drummer survives, Bobbi officially joins the crew, and Diogo bites it beautifully. Even though Melba's motivations were wonky and her turn at the end was predictable, I'm glad it happened. How will access to new worlds affect Inner-Belter relations? Will those class dynamics no longer be relevant, or will they be further exacerbated? An excellent finale for an excellent season, and I look forward to seeing where both the political intrigue and alien mystery stuff go on Amazon.

[Netfoot]

4 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I could really feel the immensity of the inside space. When they were going around in the lifts, and the Belters running to the reactor. Also in shot with all the ships arranged in a circle, it was humongous compared to the other.

Essentially, it's an O'Neill cylinder with a big motor stuck up it's ass.

[Miles]

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Is it possible a scene or two was added after the deal was struck with Amazon? I feel like those final moments with Drummer offering Ashford a drink and Holden meeting up with Miller might've been added to give us an idea how some things might be in the next season. Assuming all those actors get contracts again, that is.

I don't think so. Those worked as bookends. Without them it would have felt incomplete. Especially the scene with Holden and Miller.

 

5 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I wonder if this is the last time we see Anna. She has no reason to stick around in space anymore. Unless first episode of season four starts with the ships getting intercepted by some people by a whole other agenda that's keeping her from earth.

Girl is all about the unknown and new frontiers. I think her wife won't be very happy, because Anna is gonna go solar system hopping.

The german word for what she is would be neugierig. I feel none of the english translations quite capture the word, here is a selection: https://www.dict.cc/?s=Neugierig The literal translation would be "greedy for new things/experiences".

 

5 hours ago, Holmbo said:

The handling of Monica as the news reporter of the catastrophe was very interesting I think. At first I was really annoyed at her, who are you helping by riling everyone up like that? But actually when we see how it plays out it was a really good thing she had been so critical before. That would make it easier for everyone to trust her when she really was vouching for someone.

A good comment on why real, critical journalism is so important and partisan slant (from both directions) discredits the news as a hole. If you can't trust them with the little things, why should you trust them when it becomes important?

 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Next time I meet someone who I just cant deal with, I plan on just asking them if they have a brain tumor that explains their asshole behavior. 

That is a really good idea. I have to work out a few permutations on that speach ahead of time...

Edited June 29, 2018 by Miles

[nekilarose]

10 hours ago, CheetaraThunder said:

 

plus, a mai the only one on board for like a OT3/threesome with Holden/Naomi/Drummer? I’ve grown to truly love Naomi/Holden: credit the writers and especially Steven/Dominique for changing my mind,but I love the dynamics between Holden/Drummer and Drummer/Naomi; the intensity man.... 

My OT3 has always been Amos/Naomi/Holden. But Drummer/Naomi/Holden just overtook that spot.

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

And we got a Chrisjen sighting. Yay!

Looking fabulous as always.

Speaking of fabulous, that was an excellent season finale, wrapping everything up and letting us know next season (yay!) will be a whole new adventure.  I'm so glad they took the time to show where everyone in the cast ended up, especially the Roci family + Bobbie.  And I loved that Drummer was letting bygones over some good Belter bourbon.

[tennisgurl]

Can I just take some time to gush about the opening credit sequence? I love it so much, the visuals match up with the music really well, and it’s so haunting and somehow feels like what you imagine floating through space is like. And I love all the constructed shots of Earth, Mars, the Belt, and space itself. It makes it seem really lived in and practical, while also making space seem appropriately epic. Which works great for a show that often deals with both the practical side of space travel, and how amazing it still is. Gushing! 

[WatchrTina]

6 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I'm so glad they took the time to show where everyone in the cast ended up, especially the Roci family + Bobbie.  And I loved that Drummer was letting bygones over some good Belter bourbon.

Yeah I was relieved to see the Roci crew (plus Bobbie, all healed up!) all together again on the Roci.  I was seriously concerned that some gung-ho Martian was going to try to take back the Roci.  I presume that Monica was successful in explaining to whoever might still hold a grudge against Holden that he didn't make that broadcast or blow up that ship. I also hope Clarrisa is identified as being the person responsible for that.  I'm grateful to her for what she finally did (taking out Ashford and hitting the power kill switch) but she still needs to go to prison for her crimes.  

And I was relieved to see Ashford horizontal and Drummer vertical.  There's no way he would give up command otherwise.

[Holmbo]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

 

Girl is all about the unknown and new frontiers. I think her wife won't be very happy, because Anna is gonna go solar system hopping.

The german word for what she is would be neugierig. I feel none of the english translations quite capture the word, here is a selection: https://www.dict.cc/?s=Neugierig The literal translation would be "greedy for new things/experiences".

So you think she'd abandon her wife and child and her work with the clinic permanently? One trip is one thing but a second one, that's basically saying good bye to her old life. It's similar to what Alex did but for him it was a gradual thing. It's not like he went from one day to another just switched career to piloting and was of. 

[Danny Franks]

Man, the tension on the Behemoth between the factions. Even in a place as alien and scary as the slow zone, with them all powerless against unknowable technology, humans still fight amongst themselves. Typical. For every Ashford or Anna, there's always a Diogo.

Ashford says, "you were expecting mutiny". Heh, little inside joke for book readers, there.

I really liked how quickly the Martian captain accepted the idea of blowing up the Ring, and trapping everyone inside it. And I liked Ashford proving that all his big words about Belters becoming something more, becoming the equals to the great powers, weren't bullshit. He was ready to sacrifice himself to save humanity too. And I liked how the sacrificial, 'noble' choice was framed here as the wrong one. But Ashford ended up being part Ahab, part Colonel Kurtz in how quickly he refused to see any other argument. It felt a tad rushed, but I guess it had to be, to get this story told.

That first, sweeping, CGI shot of the slow zone, showing all the ships being pulled into the centre and then zooming in on the Roci, was great. This show is going to be truly something else with Amazon's money behind it.

I loved how Amos gravitated to Anna almost immediately. He was truly baffled by Anna, but she's just the sort of person he always looks for, when trying to make the right decision. But man, that was a neat bit of juxtaposition between two utterly different world views:

"Why do you [help people]?"

"Because it needs to be done. That's what most of my life is: Seeing what needs to be done and trying to do it."

"Mine too."

They were just so fascinated by each other, and I hope we see more of them interacting, because this is the most I've ever liked Elizabeth Mitchell in anything, and her mix of pure empathy and scientific curiosity when trying to figure Amos out was really cool.

The little moment with Alex and Bobbie realising they were shooting at each other was great. Bobbie goes from macho Gunnery Sergeant to unsure and concerned in an instant. And of course, there's none of that with Amos. He likes Bobbie, but he'll still kill her if he has to. But I guess Bobbie screwed up her reinstatement.

I could totally get on board with a Holden/Naomi/Drummer, three person relationship. Think it might be a bit too much for Holden to handle, though. But given that Drummer is not interested  in Holden, I guess that's a moo point. Cara Gee was fantastic again in this episode. Showing real vulnerability, both physical and emotional, which we haven't seen from Drummer before, but still hiding it behind macho bravado.

I did think she was going to sacrifice herself heroically, but I'm so freakin' glad she didn't. There's so much more to do with her character, and if there was a fitting way to get rid of Diogo, squashed by an elevator was perfect. Little shit.

Speaking of sacrifices, I don't buy that Clarissa Mao redeemed herself just because she killed the reactor and got shot for it. But I don't think the show is trying to sell it to me either. She was never a monster, and we always saw how much what she was doing hurt her, but she was driven by the twisted, deranged hatred of Holden. A man who, just as Amos had never met Ashford, she still wanted to kill. Then she does meet him (kind of) and realises he's not what she thought he was, which throws her neat, 'woe is me' vengeance plan completely out of whack. And all those people she killed, it didn't mean anything. Now that's hit home for her, I don't think she'll even try to avoid punishment.

Thirteen hundred new systems for humanity to fight over? This is what I love about this show, and these books. For all the talk of aliens and threats from outside the Solar System, it's about humanity. About the things we do to each other. Every new secret seems to be about how there are things bigger and scarier than us and yet... we still find ways to make it all about us and how we can profit from it.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Danny Franks

[johntfs]

Who else loved the expression on Drummer face when she was watching Holden trying to get his dead (imaginary?) friend to show up?  Just, "Oh, Jesus, did I back the wrong horse..."

[Clanstarling]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:13 PM, thuganomics85 said:

So.... am I a horrible person for laughing a good minute when Diogo got crushed by the elevator?  Because that was totally what I was doing.  I think it was the combination of it being so unexpected, the relief that Drummer wasn't going to die (boy, they had me there for a good few seconds), and showing just how awesome and inventive Naomi is.  Well, that and also because Diego is/was an asshole and a half.  A fitting end for that little shit!

Then, I think, most of us are horrible. I particularly liked the little explosion at the end of the drop - and exclamation point that the little shit was well and truly dead. I was all ready to have Drummer die valiantly, but this was way better.

On 6/28/2018 at 7:09 AM, showme said:

Oh, and that Ashford is not in jail for his stupidity and the cold blooded killing of a crew member who dared to speak up.

Belter laws regarding command privilege may be quite different than Earth and Mars. He might have been within his rights.

21 hours ago, Holmbo said:

The only thing else I have for the moment is that I didn't understand that Diogo was killed, before I saw the comments in this thread. I was thinking his Martian suit would protect him I suppose. Good riddance. Why was he even so high in command? Feels political rather than based on any kind of merit.

I see Diogo more as Ashford's primary attack dog. The OPA version of Amos, perhaps. Though he was way more hot headed.

20 hours ago, Netfoot said:

So sorry this season is over... but at least now I can resume reading!

Until I know, unequivocally, that I won't accidentally read beyond this season's ending, I'm waiting. Fooled me once.

18 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I wonder if this is the last time we see Anna. She has no reason to stick around in space anymore. Unless first episode of season four starts with the ships getting intercepted by some people by a whole other agenda that's keeping her from earth.

She has the same reason she had before - the desire to reach out and understand what she perceives as God. She wasn't out there to stop a war, she was out there to witness a miracle, and the show opened up a trove of "miracles."

13 hours ago, Miles said:

Girl is all about the unknown and new frontiers. I think her wife won't be very happy, because Anna is gonna go solar system hopping.

A good comment on why real, critical journalism is so important and partisan slant (from both directions) discredits the news as a whole. If you can't trust them with the little things, why should you trust them when it becomes important?

Agreed on both counts.

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Yeah I was relieved to see the Roci crew (plus Bobbie, all healed up!) all together again on the Roci.  I was seriously concerned that some gung-ho Martian was going to try to take back the Roci.  I presume that Monica was successful in explaining to whoever might still hold a grudge against Holden that he didn't make that broadcast or blow up that ship. I also hope Clarrisa is identified as being the person responsible for that.  I'm grateful to her for what she finally did (taking out Ashford and hitting the power kill switch) but she still needs to go to prison for her crimes.  

And I was relieved to see Ashford horizontal and Drummer vertical.  There's no way he would give up command otherwise.

I loved that Bobbie is now on the Roci crew - it's where she belongs. A band of people who never quite fit in to their homes of origin.

8 hours ago, Holmbo said:

So you think she'd abandon her wife and child and her work with the clinic permanently? One trip is one thing but a second one, that's basically saying good bye to her old life. It's similar to what Alex did but for him it was a gradual thing. It's not like he went from one day to another just switched career to piloting and was of. 

Possibly. It would be a gradual thing for Anna too, imo. First she left them to work with the asshole at the UN, then she left them to go to the ass end of the solar system. I totally could see her going and justifying it to herself.

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Thirteen hundred new systems for humanity to fight over? This is what I love about this show, and these books. For all the talk of aliens and threats from outside the Solar System, it's about humanity. About the things we do to each other. Every new secret seems to be about how there are things bigger and scarier than us and yet... we still find ways to make it all about us and how we can profit from it.

It's what I love about science fiction in general - but especially this series (and books when I get to read them all, read the first one and loved it).

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Until I know, unequivocally, that I won't accidentally read beyond this season's ending, I'm waiting. Fooled me once.

You're good to go to the end of the third book.

(If I'm misremembering, please let me know.)

Edited June 29, 2018 by Haleth

[WatchrTina]

31 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

the little shit was well and truly dead

By my count Diogo has been called a "little shit" on this board about a dozen times. Seldom does one see such a unanimity of opinion in a discussion board.  :)

 

On 6/27/2018 at 9:59 PM, marinw said:

I'm worried about Drummer. She's earned a nice coma to heal properly.

I actually woke up thinking about this.  I said above that I was glad to see Ashford horizontal and Drummer vertical in that last scene but I also want her to get a chance to heal.  In my mental wanderings this morning I imagined her taking the Behemoth back to the space station where it was built (the one Fred Johnson runs) so that it (and she) could be repaired.  I imagined that only there would she feel safe allowing herself to be put into a coma for the needed repairs to her spine.  

But is it likely that she would have the luxury of doing that?  The whole universe just opened up to people of our solar system and the Behemoth is the OPA's flag-ship.  I have a feeling it's going to be staying in the area of the gate for a good long while. (Plus if it goes back to the space station that might make it vulnerable to the legal machinations of the Mormons who you just know want their very expensive ship back, even if they aren't planning on using it for inter-stellar travel any more.)  So . . . plan B . . . I hope that someone Drummer trusts comes aboard so that she can hand-off command to them for a few days and have some coma-assisted healing done.  I vote that Fred should come for a visit.

 

17 minutes ago, Haleth said:

You're good to go to the end of the third book.

Oh THANK YOU.  I also stopped my reading for fear of getting ahead of the show.  Now I know what I can safely add to the summer reading list.

Edited June 29, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Netfoot]

29 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Until I know, unequivocally, that I won't accidentally read beyond this season's ending, I'm waiting. Fooled me once.

Perhaps someone can tell us exactly where the end of season falls in the book?   Which book/chapter?  That would be very helpful.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

and the Behemoth is the OPA's flag-ship.

Ah, but is it?  Fred Johnson is not a member of the OPA and has no particular love for them.  Ashford's purpose was to claim it for that organization and he did so temporarily, but technically that was an act of piracy.  So now, with the Behemoth back under Drummer's / Johnson's control, Ashford in the sickbar sickbay and tlsD squashed like the bug he was, I don't think the OPA have any claim on it.

I do get the impression that all the inners (Earth, Mars) think Belter ⇔ OPA, but that is not, in fact, the case.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Netfoot

[marinw]

25 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

 

On 6/27/2018 at 11:59 PM, marinw said:

I'm worried about Drummer. She's earned a nice coma to heal properly.

I actually woke up thinking about this.  I said above that I was glad to see Ashford horizontal and Drummer vertical in that last scene but I also want her to get a chance to heal.  In my mental wanderings this morning I imagined her taking the Behemoth back to the space station where it was built (the one Fred Johnson runs) so that it (and she) could be repaired.  I imagined that only there would she feel safe allowing herself to be put into a coma for the needed repairs to her spine.  

Before the final few episodes, I thought the show was very hand-wavey about medical problems. The Autodocs seemed like magical things that could fix anything, including Chrisjen’s head injury.  Yet the last few episodes took low-gravity injuries seriously. Drummer can’t be fixed by sticking her arm in the Autodoc. 

I agree that Drummer needs to go back to Tycho. The issue is that she may not trust Ashford to look after the Behemoth

Edited June 29, 2018 by marinw

[Holmbo]

41 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Possibly. It would be a gradual thing for Anna too, imo. First she left them to work with the asshole at the UN, then she left them to go to the ass end of the solar system. I totally could see her going and justifying it to herself.

Good point. I think she'd need some kind of excuse to go though. That she was really needed there. 

[marinw]

7 minutes ago, Holmbo said:

Good point. I think she'd need some kind of excuse to go though. That she was really needed there. 

I think Anna is headed for a divorce. She and her wife clearly want differewnt things.

[Holmbo]

9 minutes ago, marinw said:

Before the final few episodes, I thought the show was very hand-wavey about medical problems. The Autodocs seemed like magical things that could fix anything, including Chrisjen’s head injury.  Yet the last few episodes took low-gravity injuries seriously. Drummer can’t be fixed by sticking her arm in the Autodoc. 

I agree that Drummer needs to go back to Tycho. The issue is that she may not trust Ashford to look after the Behemoth

It would be very realistic if Drummer end up having medical complications due to not resting, and it could play a role in future plot.

[WatchrTina]

Remember in the TV show Star Trek:  Deep Space 9 how the discovery of a stable worm-hole was the real kick-off for the whole series?  The notion was that the worm-hole changed the "reality" of the universe.  Suddenly travel was possible to points in the universe that had never been reachable before (and this was in a fantasy 'verse where interstellar travel is already a common thing.)  The space station -- Deep Space 9 -- was parked at the worm-hole entrance/exit to keep an eye on it and to serve as a port of call for people using the worm-hole super-highway.

I wonder if the Behemoth ends up in a similar role.  With its size and spin gravity it actually would function well as a space station.  It would be a shame to let its super-long-distance engines moulder away unused, but I think they've just been rendered obsolete by the gate system anyway.  I wonder if the power of the engines could be redirected to other purposes?

This is all pure speculation of course and I don't want to know if I'm right (so don't tell me.)  I'm just enjoying noticing this parallel between two SciFi shows that I really enjoy.  Of course this new RingGate system is going to be a LOT more disruptive to the Expanse'verse than the wormhole was to the StarTrek'verse.  There are many alien species in the StarTrek 'verse.  In the Expanse, everyone is human (at least until the proto-molecule starts trying to "build" things.)  Earthers, Martians, and Belters are all the same species, even if culturally they have grown apart.  The species/civilizaion that sent the proto-molecule to our solar system sent it millions of years ago and is (according to the show) long dead.  So . . . who or what is out there now?  I think -- for good or ill -- the show is about to dramatically change.  Whatever we (the viewers) encounter as the show's characters travel through the rings -- it won't be human.  I'm excited about that but also a bit nervous.  That's a pretty huge change in the premise of the show.

I feel like this post has wandered off the topic of these two episodes and into speculation territory so I'll try to reel it back in.  The way Alex's voice broke like an adolescent boy's when he said "Bobbie?" is just the best thing ever.  I wonder if it was deliberate or just a serendipitous fluke that they decided to keep in the episode.

And speaking of Bobbie -- I'm worried about her.  She was sent with two other Martians to stop that rogue broadcast.  One of her fellow soldiers is dead (shot by Amos) and one was incapacitated and possibly dead due to Bobbie's actions.  Bobbie did help save the day -- that broadcast and the shutting down of all the engines IS what saved everyone -- so Bobbie's failure to carry out her mission was, in the end, a good outcome.  But Mars is a military culture and they take a dim view of not following orders.  Bobbie not only failed in her mission, she fought one of her fellow soldiers and then changed sides.  That's not the kind of thing a military culture forgives or forgets (especially since she was already on thin ice due to her having run away from UN headquarters while on earth and having ended up traveling the solar system with Avasarala for a good, long while.)  I presume Bobby is off the Martian military payroll again. I wonder if she's on a "wanted" list now.  Man, that Team Roci sure knows how to leave a trail of angry people behind them (when they're not saving the damned solar system AGAIN).  Not only do they have to continue worry about the Martians trying to repossess the Roci, now they'll have to worry about them trying to repossess Bobbie.

ETA:  Okay, Imma need Avasarala to step up and:

1. Clear Holden's name once and for all, and

2. Get Bobbie an honorable discharge from the Martian military.

If anyone can do it, she can.

11 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I guess that's a moo point.

I don't know which is better -- if this is a genuine typo or if you are quoting Joey  from "Friends" (who said "It's a moo point.  It's like a cow's opinion -- it doesn't matter.")  Either way it made me laugh.

Edited June 29, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Danny Franks]

29 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I don't know which is better -- if this is a genuine typo or if you are quoting Joey  from "Friends" (who said "It's a moo point.  It's like a cow's opinion -- it doesn't matter.)  Either way it made me laugh.

It was a Joey quote. Probably my favourite ever line from that show.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

You're good to go to the end of the third book.

(If I'm misremembering, please let me know.)

Thank you! I'll go off and buy the 2nd and 3rd book and settle in.

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

By my count Diogo has been called a "little shit" on this board about a dozen times. Seldom does one see such a unanimity of opinion in a discussion board.  :)

I know, right? I remember actually liking his character at some point, and then he became a little shit (or maybe he always was one, and his shit-itude shifted into the the "ding dong the little shit is dead!" range.

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

Ah, but is it?  Fred Johnson is not a member of the OPA and has no particular love for them.  Ashford's purpose was to claim it for that organization and he did so temporarily, but technically that was an act of piracy.  So now, with the Behemoth back under Drummer's / Johnson's control, Ashford in the sickbar sickbay and tlsD squashed like the bug he was, I don't think the OPA have any claim on it.

I do get the impression that all the inners (Earth, Mars) think Belter ⇔ OPA, but that is not, in fact, the case.

Agree on all points, and loved "tlsD tm @Netfoot.

1 hour ago, Holmbo said:

Good point. I think she'd need some kind of excuse to go though. That she was really needed there. 

She gave herself an excuse for going to the ring, and then another to actively stay when the military was sending away civilians. So I think she's pretty good at giving herself excuses to do exactly what she wants to do.

[Netfoot]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I'll go off and buy the 2nd and 3rd book and settle in.

I own all seven.  They've been sitting there waiting...

11 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

loved "tlsD tm @Netfoot.

It was being said so often, I think it deserved it's own shortcut!

[Holmbo]

22 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Agree on all points, and loved "tlsD tm @Netfoot.

I don't get it