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Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

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I agree with most of your post (heh!  It rhymes!) but I just really can't see Sam doing this.  Not completely.  

It`s a bit off an odd route they have been going with her in that regard because while I can see how Sam is just happy to finally have her, she has been a nebulous figure for him during his life. It was a big reason why he couldn`t pin a revenge quest on her the way John could but did so when Jess was burned. Mary just couldn`t be that for him. 

Meanwhile Dean was both too small to do completely what John did but also didn`t literally have the same thing happen like Sam did later in life. Nevertheless Mary became a Madonna-like figure for him, the one who was saintly and perfect and who he strived to make proud.    

And yet it looks like Dean could distance himself from her whereas Sam could not? The only explanation I have for this is that maybe Dean has convinced himself that the mother he loved is dead and the person who came back is just someone else, allowing him to preserve her image for his own sanity. Whereas Sam is chasing a dream he can`t let go of? 

Otherwise, it`s strikes me like a lifelong believer and an atheist finally meeting God - and being disappointed by him. Shouldn`t the believer be the one who makes more excuses and have a harder time walking away?

Edited by Aeryn13

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I mentioned this in the episode thread but maybe Mary is soulless. That Amara brought her back without her soul because she ate her soul for safe keeping. I think some of her behavior is not unlike soulless Sam. I don't think she is being kind to her children by leaving and barely connecting. Now if she came back wrong then her behavior makes a lot of sense to me.

The problem I have is that they never followed up on Marys subsequent headspace after she left. No insight to her visit back to Lawrence. Why haven't we been shown what Mary was up to in Lawrence other than for some big reveal? I'd rather we see some of  her secret shenanigans  and be left think she might be trying to go back and reset the pastI

I think Dabb/Singer are writing /showrunning like Stephen Moffat does with Doctor Who and Sherlock . Dragging out storyline for big GOTCHA moments and sacrificing all the emotional moments for sake of the big reveal. I fully expect some 15 minute Montage at the end of the season that shows what Mary ws up to but by then I won't care. Give me a clue now  besides her working with the frienemies  and I might care later.

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7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mentioned this in the episode thread but maybe Mary is soulless. That Amara brought her back without her soul because she ate her soul for safe keeping. I think some of her behavior is not unlike soulless Sam. I don't think she is being kind to her children by leaving and barely connecting. Now if she came back wrong then her behavior makes a lot of sense to me.

The problem I have is that they never followed up on Marys subsequent headspace after she left. No insight to her visit back to Lawrence. Why haven't we been shown what Mary was up to in Lawrence other than for some big reveal? I'd rather we see some of  her secret shenanigans  and be left think she might be trying to go back and reset the pastI

I think Dabb/Singer are writing /showrunning like Stephen Moffat does with Doctor Who and Sherlock . Dragging out storyline for big GOTCHA moments and sacrificing all the emotional moments for sake of the big reveal. I fully expect some 15 minute Montage at the end of the season that shows what Mary ws up to but by then I won't care. Give me a clue now  besides her working with the frienemies  and I might care later.

.

Personally, I don't think she's soulless, but if they're heading in that direction she'll probably get a The Man Who would Be King style episode that delves into her motivations!

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10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I mentioned this in the episode thread but maybe Mary is soulless. That Amara brought her back without her soul because she ate her soul for safe keeping. I think some of her behavior is not unlike soulless Sam.

But they did show her worrying over Sam and Dean when they were missing, and reading the journal (and IMO being upset by it) *while she was alone* and so not trying to convince someone that she really *was* worried (as Sam had to pretend to Dean.)  Soulless Sam didn't care about anything or anyone--he said that to Dean; he just pretended to when he was with people.  They're showing Mary as caring  in private and distant and cool in front of the boys.  So if they're going for the "Mary is soulless" rerun, they're not doing a very good job of showing it IMO.  

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I don't think Mary is soulless.  I think the writers are lazy and would rather rely on the tell rather then the show.   But the problem is that that show is mostly her working behind their backs with small moments of tell.  But when there is more emphasis on her actions rather than emotions, its not wonder she's coming across to many as cold and uncaring, or people are 2nd guessing her motives. 

What I find interesting is that as much as Mary is rejecting them, Dean's rejecting her.  When she shows up, he's closed off, both physically and emotionally.  I wonder if he's still playing games and texting her about anything other than jobs.   I wish we could get a scene where Dean talks about this and how he's coping.  Despite the sniping and sarcastic remarks he has to be hurt by her treatment of him and factor in this abandonment issues and I imagine Dean's mental state is a mind field right now. 

It's one I'd like try to cross. 

Edited by ILoveReading
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I'm just starting a rewatch of Heaven Can't Wait and I STILL hate that Dean threw him out with no money, no credit cards or protection. 

I don't even mind that Dean threw Cas out. The show has long established Sam will always come first for Dean. What I hate is that he did so in a way that threw him to the wolves, that left him homeless, alone and completely without protection in spite of having heaven and hell after him. 

/end rant

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I don't think Mary is soulless, either.  They have shown her being emotional, just not enough to suit me.  I basically think of her as being a separate character from the mother we knew from prior seasons.  

I know that Sam and Dean are grown men who do not need to be nurtured, but that mothering instinct really never goes away.  Mary doesn't seem to have any mother instincts which is what I have the biggest problem with.  I can't really even imagine her being all that nurturing with her babies in heaven.  For me, this has been a big missed opportunity on behalf of the writers.  They've really failed to bring her to life in any meaningful way, and that's disappointing.

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34 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But they did show her worrying over Sam and Dean when they were missing, and reading the journal (and IMO being upset by it) *while she was alone* and so not trying to convince someone that she really *was* worried (as Sam had to pretend to Dean.)  Soulless Sam didn't care about anything or anyone--he said that to Dean; he just pretended to when he was with people.  They're showing Mary as caring  in private and distant and cool in front of the boys.  So if they're going for the "Mary is soulless" rerun, they're not doing a very good job of showing it IM

Sam wasn't the only person who was soulless. Soullessness isn't that same for everyone nor does soulless =/= emotionless.  Len made a choice for the greater good to turn himself in rather than continue to kill people. The young woman who worshipped Amara was passionate even as her passion was vengeance and murder.

Maybe the difference between Sam and the others is that Sam's soul was left in Hell whereas Amara ate their souls and kept them with her and supposedly left them with bliss. The young woman said she felt like "ecstasy chocolate cake orgasm" after Amara took her soul.  Len said he felt like he could do anything. 

Maybe Mary's soul is still in Heaven attached to her little boys and she's only able to live by using her Hunter side. Maybe it's just an unfortunate side-effect from Amara taking her out of her happy place in Heaven.

I'm not saying Mary's soul IS gone, but it's a speculation born of my bitterness about Mary's SL which  helps me make some sense and enjoy Mary more because I really don't like her at all anymore.

Edited by catrox14

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Sam wasn't the only person who was soulless. Soullessness isn't that same for everyone nor does soulless =/= emotionless.  Len made a choice for the greater good to turn himself in rather than continue to kill people. The young woman who worshipped Amara was passionate even as her passion was vengeance and murder.

Those weren't passion; they were cold and logical or calculated.  Soullessness doesn't (necessarily) make you evil; but according to Sam (and all those you mentioned) it does take away distracting outside emotions (like worry or love or even fear of consequences), so you can make cold decisions (like cutting off your own thumb to escape or killing someone because you don't like their collection of porcelain angels).  Mary hasn't been shown as being so calculating.  IMO that's wouldn't allow for worrying about her sons or yelling at Cas for leaving them or wandering around the bunker looking mournful.  But YMMV.

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14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm just starting a rewatch of Heaven Can't Wait and I STILL hate that Dean threw him out with no money, no credit cards or protection. 

I don't even mind that Dean threw Cas out. The show has long established Sam will always come first for Dean. What I hate is that he did so in a way that threw him to the wolves, that left him homeless, alone and completely without protection in spite of having heaven and hell after him. 

/end rant

That never made any sense to me other than they needed  reason to get Cas off screen.  Because the very next episode they propose fixing an angel finding machine.  Why wouldn't Gadreel object to that.  I think it would be a huge clue if it alert lit up right where he was standing. 

While it was wrong, do the Winchester actually have money they can give Cas?  

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1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

And yet it looks like Dean could distance himself from her whereas Sam could not? The only explanation I have for this is that maybe Dean has convinced himself that the mother he loved is dead and the person who came back is just someone else, allowing him to preserve her image for his own sanity. Whereas Sam is chasing a dream he can`t let go of?

I think that Dean's got a couple things going on that make his reaction different from Sam's.

1. He's been through this rigmarole of trying to "manage" a parent before with John, and he's over it. Consciously over it IMO. He seems pretty resentful toward John for putting him in that position back in the day, and I think that that resentment is likely to carry over to his relationship with Mary in the sense of him being very wary and very unforgiving of being put into a similar position by her. IMO that's why he's not trying to manage her reactions at all, he's not trying to manage her relationship with Sam at all, he's not willing to cater to her at all. He's just watching her do what she's gonna do.

I'm impressed, because that's a hard habit to train yourself out of. Also, Dean's current reaction is based on his character development over the course of the show. He was still in the "manage" mindset with John in S1. In fact, that's why he went to pick up Sam at Stanford in the first place. I think it's cool that the show is using its 11+ years of history as the basis for where Dean is at right now, and is continuing to push the character's development forward even from here.

Sam didn't go through that with John, for whatever reason (?), so he isn't so wary or disillusioned.

2. A mother's love is not abstract for Dean. He felt it when he was a kid, both in terms of loving her and feeling loved by her. So he has some expectations for their relationship with Mary. I'm not talking about Suzy Homemaker stuff. I mean stuff like, that they would be there for each other. That he could trust her. So when she failed to meet those expectations by leaving the bunker, he was like FUCK THAT. He took it as a betrayal. So now it's basically like, once burned, twice shy.

I think that for Sam, a mother's love is a totally abstract concept, something he has no personal memory/experience of, so he didn't have expectations in the same way. He didn't know what would be reasonable to expect and what wouldn't. So he just kind of accepted whatever he got.

I do think that Mary's reveal of working with the BMOL changed things in Sam's head, though. He KNOWS that's a betrayal, and that it isn't right. I feel bad for him because I think that he must be feeling like he's lost his mom all over again. Like I assume that Dean did when she left the bunker. Like, nope, actually, Mary is alive, but you STILL don't have a mom. At least not one who loves you or you can trust not to screw you over for herself. Sorry.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The problem I have is that they never followed up on Marys subsequent headspace after she left. No insight to her visit back to Lawrence. Why haven't we been shown what Mary was up to in Lawrence other than for some big reveal? I'd rather we see some of  her secret shenanigans  and be left think she might be trying to go back and reset the pastI

I think you're right and there's going to be a big reveal. Like that Mary has had a grand plan in the works this whole time or something.

IMO this is a remix of Sam's storyline in S4, and I think there's going to be a GOTCHA! moment near the end of the season for Mary like there was for Sam. The thing is that in S4 the GOTCHA! was too little too late because, even if it explained Sam's behavior alright (or at least better) in retrospect, the fact was that we were still stuck with practically a whole season of Sam acting like an asshole crazy person for no known reason, and that was really alienating. I think that if we do get a GOTCHA! for Mary, it's going to be too little too late in pretty much the same way. You just can't pay off a whole season of behavior with some eleventh hour revelation. It inevitably ends up feeling cheap and confusing IMO.

In terms of character development, I wish they would keep the narrative pretty linear. Like, just give us insight into what's in these characters' heads and what's going on in their relationships and stop trying to be so fancy about it. The characters themselves and the situations they're in are already complicated (and interesting) enough without the show chopping their development and narratives into incoherent shards and making the characters' minds as impenetrable as possible.

Edited by rue721
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10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Those weren't passion; they were cold and logical or calculated.  Soullessness doesn't (necessarily) make you evil; but according to Sam (and all those you mentioned) it does take away distracting outside emotions (like worry or love or even fear of consequences), so you can make cold decisions (like cutting off your own thumb to escape or killing someone because you don't like their collection of porcelain angels).  Mary hasn't been shown as being so calculating.  IMO that's wouldn't allow for worrying about her sons or yelling at Cas for leaving them or wandering around the bunker looking mournful.  But YMMV.

I would disagree that Sydney wasn't passionate. Passion =/= love it's overwhelmingly emotion. She flipped out on Dean when he called Amara a bitch.  She hit him in the head with  a gun and shouted at him that Amara was a Goddess.  She prayed to Amara.  She still made a cold decision to murder but that doesn't mean she lacked passion. She hated her mother and her father and her passion was to take care of  the young boy whose  parents were abusing him.   Sydney was extremely emotional about Amara and about killing the people that she thought wronged her and others. Amara took away her guilt for doing those things.

In that same episode,  Sam noted that people react differently
 

Quote

 

SAM

I mean, it kinda makes sense. You know. People having different reactions to losing their souls. I did. Everyone’s got their own history, right?

DEAN

Len loses his heart. Sydney loses her head. What are we? Looking for the cowardly lion next?

SAM

You know I get like this pit in my stomach any time I think of her. The Darkness. Like we only know the tip of what she is. What she does to people. You know Len was freaked out by her. But Sydney. Sydney couldn’t get enough. The bliss she was talking about, you know? What was it like for you? Did you feel like that with Amara?

DEAN

No. No, I mean it was quiet. Until, uh, she started hatching killers and rallying monsters to raise armies.

 

Amara didn't bring anyone but Mary back from the dead.  I don't think it's totally out of the question that Mary isn't right.

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18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That never made any sense to me other than they needed  reason to get Cas off screen.  Because the very next episode they propose fixing an angel finding machine.  Why wouldn't Gadreel object to that.  I think it would be a huge clue if it alert lit up right where he was standing. 

While it was wrong, do the Winchester actually have money they can give Cas?  

IMO that was written to put Dean in the worst possible light following his highly controversial decision to allow angel to possess Sam without Sam's informed consent. IMO it was  to drive home that Dean was a selfish dick for lying to Sam about Gadreel and now his lies were rolling onto Cas because Dean was trying to cover the lie even if  his lies were born of Gadreel passively threatening that Sam would die if he left.

Edited by catrox14
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29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO that was written to put Dean in the worst possible light following his highly controversial decision to allow angel to possess Sam without Sam's informed consent. IMO was to drive home that Dean was a selfish dick for lying to Sam about Gadreel and his lies were now rolling onto Cas when he was trying to cover his lies even as his lies were born of Gadreel passively threatening that Sam would die if he left. 

I'm not going to disagree that that might have been the reason it was written; it's definitely the way it came across.  In practicality, it was to keep Cas from recognizing not only that there was an angel in Sam (Dean had already told him Sam was being healed by an angel, just not *how*) but that the angel was NOT Ezekial, who was a "good guy" but Gadreel.  Gadreel didn't want to be outed, and Dean didn't question why.  

Edited by ahrtee · Reason: grammar.
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I don`t think Mary is soulless because I do believe the writers mean for her to come across far more sympathetically than she is.

When Ketch gave her that spiel about needing to distance herself from her children and that they make her weak because she is "softer" with them, I think that was supposed to come across as truth-telling. Manipulation by a shady character, sure, but I believe the audience was supposed to see his point also. Instead of going "wow, if she distances herself anymore, she will move to freaking Mars" or "softer? fucking when?"  

This is not the first time they have done this. We got a million and one "tell" about how MOC!Dean completely lost it all the time with evidence like "he slammed someone down on a bar or against a wall". What was the "see"? We got scenes of Cas and Sam doing that exact same thing and it wasn`t supposed to mean anything. Maybe that they were protective or frustrated in the moment or badass but not violently unhinged.

That struck me as the same thing. Hey, if we tell people how soft and motherly - and not a true hunter - Mary is with her sons, noone will question it. Despite putting in actual scenes that don`t warrant such a statement. I think Mary is supposed to come across somewhat wrong but far less so than she actually does.     

Edited by Aeryn13
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6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not going to disagree that that might have been the reason it was written; it's definitely that's the way it came across.  In practicality, it was to keep Cas from recognizing not only that there was an angel in Sam (Dean had already told him Sam was being healed by an angel, just not *how*) but that the angel was NOT Ezekial, who was a "good guy" but Gadreel.  Gadreel didn't want to be outed, and Dean didn't question why.

I understand that was the rationale for the SL. Dean was lying and continuing to cover up his lie. Basically it was all about Dean is a lying liar who lies and now he's being mean to his best friend by tossing him out.

Which is kind of ironic because that would have been one argument Sam could have made to Dean in the Purge that would have supported Sam's viewpoint.

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I'm now remembering why I hated season nine Dean so much! 

Not only did he throw Castiel out to the wolves, but he now has the audacity to come and judge Castiel for making the best of it and trying to earn an honest wage. Shut up Dean! Just shut up! You have no right to judge him.

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That never made any sense to me other than they needed  reason to get Cas off screen.  Because the very next episode they propose fixing an angel finding machine.  Why wouldn't Gadreel object to that.  I think it would be a huge clue if it alert lit up right where he was standing. 

While it was wrong, do the Winchester actually have money they can give Cas?  

We know Gadreel was capable of altering Sam's memory so he could easily cover up a reveal like that. As @Aeryn13 said he had Cas chucked out to cover himself in case Castiel figured out he wasn't Ezekiel. 

The Winchesters always seem to have a decent amount of money they've gained from hustling or credit card scams. As far as I'm concerned if Dean truly cared about Castiel then there was so much more he could have done. He could have provided him with ill gained credit cards with enough money to help him get settled somewhere (it's not like the Winchesters are above credit card fraud), he could have sent him to Garth, he could have set him up in a motel room somewhere. 

I think I've mentioned in the past that I once shipped Destiel! This was the moment when that ended! I've learnt to somewhat enjoy their friendship again, but its never been the same for me from when Dean did this. 

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2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

he could have sent him to Garth,

I think Garth was already missing by that point.  But, yeah, I don't even really care about Cas, and I thought Dean was being a colossal jerk.

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Not only did he throw Castiel out to the wolves, but he now has the audacity to come and judge Castiel for making the best of it and trying to earn an honest wage. Shut up Dean! Just shut up! You have no right to judge him.

I hated the first half of Season 9 because they trashed the Dean-character left and right and still didn`t bother to give him a fucking story for it. At least when Sam went beige-side, HE had the story. 

Only First Born breathed some new life in me. 

Quote

I think I've mentioned in the past that I once shipped Destiel! This was the moment when that ended! I've learnt to somewhat enjoy their friendship again, but its never been the same for me from when Dean did this. 

I can understand having a moment of no return with a character. For me the Purge speech was utter death.

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I'm equating Dean's OOC dickishness there with Sam's not looking for Dean in Purgatory...something the writers decided they needed (for whatever reason) and didn't think about what it would look like to fans.  Or didn't expect them to be *so* pissed off.  

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1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm now remembering why I hated season nine Dean so much! 

If it makes you feel any better. I did think Dean felt like shit for tossing Cas out. I think he was stuck between being manipulated by Gadreel and getting caught up in his own lies. 

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8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If it makes you feel any better. I did think Dean felt like shit for tossing Cas out. I think he was stuck between being manipulated by Gadreel and getting caught up in his own lies. 

 Honestly, it doesn't really help, but thanks for trying -hugs-. 

As I said I don't even mind that he threw Cas out. There was never going to be a scenario where he was going to go like "alright zeke off you go. We can gamble on Sam's life so Cas can stay". If there's one consistent characterisation we've gotten from Dean over the years it's that Sam comes first. 

What I object to is his complex and utter regard for him and disinterest in helping him make the best of the situation. Instead he leaves him completely helpless and then dares to stroll in as though nothing happened and start belittling him for trying to make an honest living. 

Im sorry but Dean was just an awful, awful friend here. Not because he threw Cas out of the bunker, but because of how he handled the situation after that. If he had even shown remorse for the lack of help I might have forgiven him, but the disdain he displayed for Cas' choices annoyed me even more. 

As I said I've learnt to start (tentatively) enjoying their scenes again, but there's still a reticence that'll probably always be there. These days I actually enjoy Sam and Castiel's interactions a lot more :)

Edited by Wayward Son
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Ultimately, Dean would do anything to save Sam.  And he wanted to come clean more than a few times, but each time he did, Gadreel would tell him that Sam would die.  Casting out Cas was bad, but Dean wouldn't choose even Cas over Sam.

Edited by MysteryGuest
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I guess my unpopular opinion is I never thought Dean choosing to save Sam was OOC. It's the Save Sammy prime directive ingrained since he was 4. Sam will not die as long as Dean is around to prevent it. It was the Prime Directive taken to the nth degree. Cas was a casualty of that Prime Directive.

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7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:
  1. Ultimately, Dean would do anything to save Sam.  And he wanted to come clean more than a few times, but each time he did, Gadreel would tell him that Sam would die.  Casting out Cas was bad, but Dean wouldn't choose even Cas over Sam.

@catrox14 (I can't figure out how to edit a post to include a new quote)

Which I addressed when I said 

Quote

I don't even mind that he threw Cas out. There was never going to be a scenario where he was going to go like "alright zeke off you go. We can gamble on Sam's life so Cas can stay". If there's one consistent characterisation we've gotten from Dean over the years it's that Sam comes first. 

What I object to is his complex and utter regard for him and disinterest in helping him make the best of the situation. Instead he leaves him completely helpless and then dares to stroll in as though nothing happened and start belittling him for trying to make an honest living. 

I have no problem with him throwing Castiel out. I get why he did that. It was his behaviour in the aftermath I found unforgiveable. 

Edited by Wayward Son
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I think the writers were just out of touch and didn't realize how weird it would be for Dean to do. What made it feel really OOC to me was how snotty Dean seemed. First he throws Cas out on the street with nothing, like that's something that's acceptable to do, and then when Cas somehow still manages to land on his feet and put together a life in record time, Dean makes fun of his job as too low class? OK that's ridiculous. Dean has been an asshole before, but *snotty*?

Man, it was really tough to like the Winchesters for a minute there. My favorite thing about this season is that they seem like they're fundamentally good, down to earth people again. Makes such a difference in my enjoyment of the show lol

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6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I have no problem with him throwing Castiel out. I get why he did that. It was his behaviour in the aftermath I found unforgiveable. 

IA completely.  It makes no sense.  OTOH, these are the same guys (and Cas is included in that group) who turned Claire loose *several* times without giving her any money.  And IIRC they didn't even give her a ride to the bus station.  

On a separate note, do they still have all the dragon gold they got in Like A Virgin?  They used some in Frontierland, but there certainly seemed to be a lot.  Did it all melt in Bobby's house?  

Edited by ahrtee
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3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

These days I actually enjoy Sam and Castiel's interactions a lot more :)

Hee. Come over to the "darkside," @Wayward Son. Sasstiel is fun.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Otherwise, it`s strikes me like a lifelong believer and an atheist finally meeting God - and being disappointed by him. Shouldn`t the believer be the one who makes more excuses and have a harder time walking away?

I guess maybe it depends on the situation? Sam had believed for a long time, but when he met the angels, he was disillusioned enough that he at first might have been wary of what they'd do to him, but he wasn't making excuses for their behavior that I saw. He pretty much asked "these dicks are who I've been praying to all my life?" And it didn't take him long to actively work against their (or at least Uriel's) wishes. He was somewhat conflicted in terms of Castiel, but he wasn't making any excuses for Uriel that I remember.

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1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I have no problem with him throwing Castiel out. I get why he did that. It was his behaviour in the aftermath I found unforgiveable. 

I guess I'll have to go back and re-watch, because I honestly don't remember any unforgivable behavior.  From what we've seen on this show, I don't think that Sam and Dean have an endless supply of money.  They have the bunker now, but prior to that they lived in flea bag motels, Bobby's house or their car.  Credit card scamming and pool hustling only pay so much.  

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2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

OTOH, these are the same guys (and Cas is included in that group) who turned Claire loose *several* times without giving her any money.  And IIRC they didn't even give her a ride to the bus station.

Several times?  I think it was really just once.  They didn't know what her situation was before The Things We Left behind. She ran away from them several times that episode.  OK, I guess twice, because Cas let her leave towards the beginning of The Hunter Games, though he did tell Dean to call her (which I always thought was a weird choice), then he let her leave again at the end of that episode.  At the end of Angel Heart they stuck her in a cab and sent her to Jodie's.

We don't know for sure that Dean didn't float Cas a little bit of money on his way out the door.  I think the bigger problem was the whole "hey, how dare you work for a living when you should be saving lives, totally on your own, while there are angels out to get you and everything you do would probably just be a neon light saying here I am."   

On a semi-related note in About a Boy, they gave Tina all the cash they had on them and gave her a ride to the bus station.

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2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

What I object to is his complex and utter regard for him and disinterest in helping him make the best of the situation. Instead he leaves him completely helpless and then dares to stroll in as though nothing happened and start belittling him for trying to make an honest living. 

My read on that scene was Dean was performing and trying to ingratiate himself by saying Cas was too good to work at a Gas n Sip because I'm pretty sure Dean would never belittle a gas n sip worker. He didn't consider that Cas would take it as an insult.

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8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think the writers were just out of touch and didn't realize how weird it would be for Dean to do. What made it feel really OOC to me was how snotty Dean seemed. First he throws Cas out on the street with nothing, like that's something that's acceptable to do, and then when Cas somehow still manages to land on his feet and put together a life in record time, Dean makes fun of his job as too low class? OK that's ridiculous. Dean has been an asshole before, but *snotty*?

Man, it was really tough to like the Winchesters for a minute there. My favorite thing about this season is that they seem like they're fundamentally good, down to earth people again. Makes such a difference in my enjoyment of the show lol

BiB: EXACTLY! It was just awful, awful writing and behaviour! 

And I totally agree! The Sam and Dean of season 12 are much more fun to watch and far easier to root for! I actually stopped watching the show in the middle of season 9. I was only lured back last summer when a friend assured me they'd become decent people again and no longer in the endless conflict cycle. 

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IA completely.  It makes no sense.  OTOH, these are the same guys (and Cas is included in that group) who turned Claire loose *several* times without giving her any money.  And IIRC they didn't even give her a ride to the bus station.  

On a separate note, do they still have all the dragon gold they got in Like A Virgin?  They used some in Frontierland, but there certainly seemed to be a lot.  Did it all melt in Bobby's house?  

Ooh that's a good point about Claire! I hadn't thought of it that way before. 

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee. Come over to the "darkside," @Wayward Son. Sasstiel is fun.

I should clarify that I don't ship them and purely enjoy them as friends. I've always enjoyed the rare Sam and Cas scenes we got and I'd include their scenes in Reading is Fundamental and First Born as some of my favourites on the show.  

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I'll have to go back and re-watch, because I honestly don't remember any unforgivable behavior.  From what we've seen on this show, I don't think that Sam and Dean have an endless supply of money.  They have the bunker now, but prior to that they lived in flea bag motels, Bobby's house or their car.  Credit card scamming and pool hustling only pay so much.  

Well I mean different people react to things differently :) 

I also think that I was extra tetchy at the time this episode first aired because this was a few weeks after the interview where Jensen 'charmingly' referred to Castiel "as just a tool" to the brothers. 

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1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I also think that I was extra tetchy at the time this episode first aired because this was a few weeks after the interview where Jensen 'charmingly' referred to Castiel "as just a tool" to the brothers. 

Bwhahahahaha I am twelve years old apparently, because I can't help but hear that ~a certain kind of way~ in the context of Destiel.

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16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

On a separate note, do they still have all the dragon gold they got in Like A Virgin?  They used some in Frontierland, but there certainly seemed to be a lot.  Did it all melt in Bobby's house?  

I remember Dean saying to Frank that he paid him 15 grand for something.  I was kind of wondering where he got all that money.  Maybe you just answered my question and that just answered yours.

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Since I touched on it in my last post another UO of mine is that Jensen isn't much of a fan of the friendship between Dean and Cas. 

The reason I think this is the fact that a) he has given several interviews where he describes Castiel as nothing more than a tool (or similar unflattering descriptions) over the years and b) there appears to be a clear difference between how he acts around bi!bro and Wincest fans at conventions compared to when he is around Dean!Cas and Destiel fans. With the former he appears happy to be jokey and teasing, while with the latter his guard goes up and he becomes as close to hostile as one can get without actually being hostile. 

I use the terms bi!bro, Wincest, Dean!Cas and Destiel because obviously not every bi!bro fans support them romantically like Wincest fans do nor does every Dean!Cas fan want Destiel. 

And obviously this is only my opinion based on what I've observed over the years and not fact since I don't know Jensen to ask him for a definitive answer 

On the other hand, I do think Misha loves exploring it so that's good :D

Edited by Wayward Son

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24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Since I touched on it in my last post another UO of mine is that Jensen isn't much of a fan of the friendship between Dean and Cas. 

The reason I think this is the fact that a) he has given several interviews where he describes Castiel as nothing more than a tool (or similar unflattering descriptions) over the years and b) there appears to be a clear difference between how he acts around bi!bro and Wincest fans at conventions compared to when he is around Dean!Cas and Destiel fans. With the former he appears happy to be jokey and teasing, while with the latter his guard goes up and he becomes as close to hostile as one can get without actually being hostile. 

I haven't witnessed that, but if it were the case, I'd explain it as Wincest being such ridiculous nonsense that it's easier to joke about.  No one could seriously watch the show and think that's what's going on, so it's obviously a joke.  But Destiel is a more pointed bastardization of character relationships they've worked hard to craft for a decade, so I wouldn't be surprised if he perceived those fans as intentionally misinterpreting his craft.  If someone accused me on Facebook of having an affair with my dog, it would wrong, but it would be funny because it's such obvious nonsense.  But if they accused me of having an affair with my neighbor, it's still wrong, but logically conceivable and therefore extremely offensive.  I wouldn't fault him for seeing Destiel that way.

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1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Which I addressed when I said 

I have no problem with him throwing Castiel out. I get why he did that. It was his behaviour in the aftermath I found unforgiveable. 

Dean did run to Cas when Cas called him for help.   Plus there was this

Quote

SCENE - Impala at the Gas'n'Sip, Dean & Castiel

The Impala pulls up to the Gas'n'Sip.

DEAN
Listen, Cas … Back at the bunker, I, uh... Sorry I told you to go. I know it's been hard on you, you know, on your own. Well, you're adapting. I'm proud of you.

When Dean saw Cas, i think it shocked him that Cas was working at a gas station.  Given that Cas was a warrior, I think Dean was surprised to find Cas never started hunting or staying active in the angel hunt.    He felt guilty, and tried and failed to play the whole thing off as a joke.  When he realized that Cas really struggled he realized he hurt Cas and tried to apologize.  I know it doesn't excuse things or make them right but I don't see Dean's actions as unforgivable. 

Dean's upbringing could be a play here too.  No one ever gave him anything.  He was always expected to make do.  Maybe he had faith that Cas would be alright because Dean knew how strong he was.  

Not saying what Dean did was right because it wasn't.  But Cas understood where Dean was coming from after Road Trip.  I'm glad he realized that he did dumb things too.  I really enjoy their friendship and don't like when its on the rocks.

Honestly this is why I loath episodes like Sacrifice, Red Trash, and Brother's Keeper.  I almost stopped watched after s8 because of it.  I remember back in s2 when Dean soul his soul, it made for an interesting storyline, but the show didn't treat it as this beautiful thing that Dean did for Sam.  It was treated as the product of Dean's twisted psyche.   When Carver had Sam not look, I agreed in theory because I understood what he was aiming for.  He wanted to show character growth. The problem is the all or nothing approach I find he and the writers seem to take.   There is a large gap between making a deal and doing nothing.  One paragraph was all that was needed. 

"Dean, I looked everywhere, read every book, turned over every rock.  Then one day i found may self a crossroads and I knew i had to stop.  I couldn't go down that road again knowing where it leads."  You could have opened the season with Sam at a crossroads coming to this conclusion driving away and hitting the dog.  Same storyline, whole different context.

Instead what we got was Sam acting like he wished Dean had stayed gone and whole season where Sam would rather be dead.  So much for not leaving his brother out there alone. 

Unfortunately, to make up for that Carver went so heavily in the opposite direction.  He made Dean cling to Sam in a way he didn't even in s1.  Everything was Sammy, Sammy, Sammy.  They even literally made Dean feed and bath him. I cringed at some of those awful lines they made Jensen utter during that storyline.   Given the renewal, there was no way they could go through with stopping the trials so rather than coming up with something believable like it would stop bad things from getting in, they just romanticized Dean not wanting to be without Sam and that whole speech. 

Then to make matters worse, why have Dean talk Sam out of the trials only to have Sam die anyway.  It was just another way make Dean cling to Sam.  I won't even touch Red Trash because the less I say about that episode the better.

It was starting to feel claustrophobic.  So least season it was such a breath of fresh air when Dean stopped worrying about Sam and put every effort he had to saving Cas.  This year its even better because it feels like the dynamic has opened up. 

I've seen some say that the brotherly bond has been lacking this year, but I think thats because Dean isn't offering to jump in front of bus for Sam every 2nd episode.  I think Carver raised expectations.  I'm not a fan of Dabb's overall story this year but I am a big fan in that he's gone back to showcasing how well Sam and Dean work together to save others, not just each other.

I know that with Dean, Sam will come first.  But I do believe that Dean would take a bullet for Cas, Jody, and even Mary or anyone else he cares about.  Sam is the only one he would eat a bullet for, but since I have never been a fan of Dean throwing his life way because he thinks Sam's is better than he is, I'm more than okay with that. 

Edited by ILoveReading
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31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Since I touched on it in my last post another UO of mine is that Jensen isn't much of a fan of the friendship between Dean and Cas. 

I disagree. I DO, however, think that he isn't a fan at all of the subset/fringe element of the Destiel fandom that tried to ruin his reputation at one time and all because because he wouldn't buy into or support their demands that Destiel be made canon on the show because he didn't believe that the character of Dean Winchester whom over years he'd helped to create, shape, and mold every bit as much as Kripke and/or all of the writers on this show(and more so, IMO) was, is, or has ever been bisexual. And he's still labelled a homophobe and  other nasty things by these people, at times. And I don't blame him one bit for not being a fan of those "fans" or for being a bit wary or having his guard up when he feels that a question at a con has been asked only to set him up to be put into another one of those type of no-win scenarios that they like to try and trap him in, sometimes even planning it out beforehand. Again, I say that they are a fringe element, and smaller now than they were before, but they were very loud at one time and very demanding, too. What I find interesting is that one of the things they demanded was the truth about the relationship and Jensen was the one who actually gave that to them, while MC constantly waffled on it, as did the writers.

I've always admired Jensen for doing that.

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On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:16 PM, ahrtee said:

Think of how many dead bodies the boys have left behind them (ranging from the 3 witches in Malleus Maleficarum, that Ruby1 said she'd "clean up" to all the demons with their eyes burned out in Lazarus Rising and everyone killed at the Biggersons in Santa Fe while the angels were hunting Cas; not to mention all the meatsuits the boys killed with the knife and left behind (I'm pretty sure they didn't wipe out all evidence that they were there, but no one ever suspected them...) 

I Know! This has bugged Mick and me from the beginning, but you just have to hand wave it. Otherwise, you will go insane.

But I do love the "Mad clean up skills" line.

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7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My head!canon is there is a secret group of demons and angels who clean up everything to make sure the world stays just as it is.

Ha! A separate class of sweeper-angels (with a few designated specifically to follow the Winchesters around, like the guys with the brooms that follow the horses in parades....)

Edited by ahrtee · Reason: clarification
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40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean's upbringing could be a play here too.  No one ever gave him anything.  He was always expected to make do.  Maybe he had faith that Cas would be alright because Dean knew how strong he was. 

I thought it was really weird and OOC *because* of his upbringing. It's not even about whether Cas could handle it. IME there's just an...IDK, a social norm. Like, there's an expectation that you yourself have needed help before, you'll probably need it again one day...so you help out the people who are down when you're up and then maybe they'll help you up when you're down again. Pay it forward, you know? YMMV of course, but that's just been the expectation IME. So that's why I was shocked by Dean being so...I dunno, oblivious?

Obviously he couldn't actually let Cas stay at the bunker, so it's not even that he had to ask him to stay elsewhere. It's that he seemed to have no recognition of how *weird* his behavior was.

IMO he was acting like he'd never been through giving or receiving help before, and was being weirdly bougy? And I mean, I myself am pretty bougy so that's saying something ;) And then he compounded it by then being snobby and weird about Cas's job? LIKE DUDE I know that you have never actually worked a regular W2 job, Dean, but you don't actually get a paycheck Day 1, so Cas is probably going to be hurting for a good month still. He could use a friend right now. Not someone acting like he's a loser because he found a job in like one day, which actually speaks really well of him. (I liked Cas more for doing that and for working so hard at that convenience store job (and then protecting that baby) than I have before or since! I was actually very impressed by his work ethic. Dunno, that's just something I care about I guess).

But I really just can't believe that Dean is a bougy snot because that's just so not in character for him, so I was really weirded out by the whole thing and figured it was just the writers being really out of touch. Wrote it off as an OOC misstep in the writing. And now that he's back to being a normal person and not being constantly OOC it doesn't really bother me anymore. JMV

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6 hours ago, rue721 said:

That's true. She had her parents to help her out before. You'd think being around them would have taught her good research methods, but maybe she's just lazy or uninterested.

Rue, this leads me to something that's always bugged me, "The Hunters Network" If John knew nothing of hunting before Mary died, how did he know about this aspect? When John first started hunting he knew enough to leave the boys with Father John or Bobby when needed. We see Bobby as the "go to guy" for hunters for everything from info on killing to having multiple phones marked F.B.I. ("He's one of our best agents") C.D.C. etc.. We even hear him give advice to Garth before the character is introduced. Yet this network is only used as a plot device. Do other hunters even know about the Bunker? Wouldn't the info in the Bunker be priceless to other hunters? And now that Garth is dead, who's manning the phones?

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10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought it was really weird and OOC *because* of his upbringing. It's not even about whether Cas could handle it. IME there's just an...IDK, a social norm. Like, there's an expectation that you yourself have needed help before, you'll probably need it again one day...so you help out the people who are down when you're up and then maybe they'll help you up when you're down again. Pay it forward, you know? YMMV of course, but that's just been the expectation IME. So that's why I was shocked by Dean being so...I dunno, oblivious?

I've often wondered if Dean's reaction to Cas was born of his own shame about his choices.

It's a different thing than guilt. Like I said upthread I think he was going overboard trying to be charming with Cas but deep down I think Dean was dealing with the shame of his decisions.  He didn't regret saving Sam but he was ashamed because it had turned out so much worse than he ever anticipated.  And he literally can't undo the choices he made.  It went from a questionable choice to save Sam which he justified to himself by saying it will end soon to asking Cas to leave and eventually Kevin's death.  IMO once Gadreel started playing games and Dean couldn't tell anyone, the guilt turned to shame.  And sometimes shame makes people behave in really weird ways that seem cold or mean or uncaring.

11 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

And now that Garth is dead, who's manning the phones?

Garth isn't dead. He's a werewolf. I think it's just back to being a network of loosely connected hunters like Rudy or Wally and the twins etc.

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52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My head!canon is there is a secret group of demons and angels who clean up everything to make sure the world stays just as it is.

* cough* the cleaners *cough* 

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I disagree. I DO, however, think that he isn't a fan at all of the subset/fringe element of the Destiel fandom that tried to ruin his reputation at one time and all because because he wouldn't buy into or support their demands that Destiel be made canon on the show because he didn't believe that the character of Dean Winchester whom over years he'd helped to create, shape, and mold every bit as much as Kripke and/or all of the writers on this show(and more so, IMO) was, is, or has ever been bisexual. And he's still labelled a homophobe and  other nasty things by these people, at times. And I don't blame him one bit for not being a fan of those "fans" or for being a bit wary or having his guard up when he feels that a question at a con has been asked only to set him up to be put into another one of those type of no-win scenarios that they like to try and trap him in, sometimes even planning it out beforehand. Again, I say that they are a fringe element, and smaller now than they were before, but they were very loud at one time and very demanding, too. What I find interesting is that one of the things they demanded was the truth about the relationship and Jensen was the one who actually gave that to them, while MC constantly waffled on it, as did the writers.

I've always admired Jensen for doing that.

I would agree with you on the fact that he was right to tell the truth! If I were still invested in Destiel I would rather be told the truth than strung along and disappointed in the long run.

In regards to his seemingly different attitude towards fans, of course that could be it! However, what I will say is that if it were true I would consider it very unfair! In my opinion a certain subset/fringe of the bi-bro fandom have done equally awful things over the years! They've sent hate to their wives over social media, they've started campaigns such as the "fire misha Collins" one from a few years back and they've spread false rumours. Again, I would like to reiterate the fact that this only applies to a very, very, small but sadly loud subset. I've personally engaged with many pleasant and thoughtful bi-bro fans over the year and wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. So I think (if it was what he was doing) it would be very unfair to harshly judge one group and not the other. 

In regards to the issue of Dean's sexuality, setting aside shipping be it Destiel or Wincest, I am going to make the very controversial statement that I don't think Jensen has done himself any favours. I am of the opinion that there have been several scenes over the years where he has not played it with the right note, if he didn't want people to consider the idea Dean may be potentially into men. For instance the whole Dr Sexy thing. He may have intended it to be a fannish, but it came across as more like a crush.

Furthermore, I just put on my season eight blu Ray and Ben Edlund (writer) and Eric Scriggia (director) state the following (in regards to Jensen's acting choice) about Dean's very first scene with Aaron. (For anyone who wants to source check, this exchange can be found in the director commentary for Everybody Hates Hitler roughly sixteen minutes into the episode) 
 

Quote

 

"He (Jensen) played it so right down the middle, you know just more awkward about it like 'wow somebody likes me'"

"Well that's the weird thing is that it reads in this weird way, where it does feel like Dean's a little bit like... it's almost like a romantic comedy kind of fluster, which is very interesting for the character of Dean, because it just sorts of suggest this weird... This potential" 

"this potential for love in all places" 

 

IMO, if you have a writer for the show and a director remarking on Jensens acting choices suggesting this then perhaps he should reflect on how he has chosen to play certain scenes. Again just my opinion and this is not a slight against Jensens overall acting ability. In general I consider him to the strongest the show has.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean did run to Cas when Cas called him for help.   Plus there was this

"Dean, I looked everywhere, read every book, turned over every rock.  Then one day i found may self a crossroads and I knew i had to stop.  I couldn't go down that road again knowing where it leads."  You could have opened the season with Sam at a crossroads coming to this conclusion driving away and hitting the dog.  Same storyline, whole different context.

Instead what we got was Sam acting like he wished Dean had stayed gone and whole season where Sam would rather be dead.  So much for not leaving his brother out there alone. 

I've seen some say that the brotherly bond has been lacking this year, but I think thats because Dean isn't offering to jump in front of bus for Sam every 2nd episode.  I think Carver raised expectations.  I'm not a fan of Dabb's overall story this year but I am a big fan in that he's gone back to showcasing how well Sam and Dean work together to save others, not just each other.

I know that with Dean, Sam will come first.  But I do believe that Dean would take a bullet for Cas, Jody, and even Mary or anyone else he cares about.  Sam is the only one he would eat a bullet for, but since I have never been a fan of Dean throwing his life way because he thinks Sam's is better than he is, I'm more than okay with that. 

I guess it's true that he did at least apologise to Castiel. Honestly, it's probably just a case of I initially over reacted because of Jensen's "tool" remark at the time and that's a residual bitterness that has stuck with me since. 

I totally agree with you on the early season 8 storyline! Sam was totally short changed here and they could have handled it better by even adding the paragraph you mention above. 

In regards to this season I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I'm glad they aren't being all melodramatic and "I'll never put anything before you." On the other hand, I do think that we could do with them talking more whether to each other or even others. I mean we haven't even gotten direct dlalogue on how they're dealing with mary's attitude and I fear we won't get overly much on how they feel about her betrayal either. So I do miss their talks that gave us explicit insight into their current thoughts on events. 

Edited by Wayward Son

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3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to the issue of Dean's sexuality, setting aside shipping be it Destiel or Wincest, I am going to make the very controversial statement that I don't think Jensen has done himself any favours. I am of the opinion that there have been several scenes over the years where he has not played it with the right note, if he didn't want people to consider the idea Dean may be potentially into men. For instance the whole Dr Sexy thing. He may have intended it to be a fannish, but it came across as more like a crush.

People will interpret how the scene comes across in different ways which is why Destiel and Wincest fans may see one thing while Jensen may intend to portray another. I don't think it's fair to throw shade to the actor if the fan sees something other than what they're trying to bring to the screen. Also, it's very likely that he was trying to come across as a Dr. Sexy superfan and it was taken differently by fans that wished to see evidence of Bi Dean. JMO of course; YMMV.

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The series' tonal shift from serious to comedy/serious/camp. For me, its truly spoiled the show.

Dean's voice: Ackles doesn't have a gruff voice. So its annoying hearing it, especially when Dean's voice wasn't presented that way from the very beginning.

The loss of the Yellow Eyed Demon & Sam's powers.

The introduction of religious deities (Angels, God, Devil, etc) doesn't mesh well with mythical or urban creatures, nor the series title of 'Supernatural'.

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3 hours ago, Kimmel77 said:

The introduction of religious deities (Angels, God, Devil, etc) doesn't mesh well with mythical or urban creatures, nor the series title of 'Supernatural'.

But demons and Hell were present from the beginning of the series which makes it logical to introduce the Devil, Angels and God. You can't have one without the other. Or were you saying that you would rather the religious overtones be absent from the overall storyline? If that was the case then my bad :(

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If there is something I never want to see again, it`s the powers. I was concerned after episode 4 this Season and happy when they said it didn`t mean anything longterm.  

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6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And yet it looks like Dean could distance himself from her whereas Sam could not? The only explanation I have for this is that maybe Dean has convinced himself that the mother he loved is dead and the person who came back is just someone else, allowing him to preserve her image for his own sanity. Whereas Sam is chasing a dream he can`t let go of? 

Otherwise, it`s strikes me like a lifelong believer and an atheist finally meeting God - and being disappointed by him. Shouldn`t the believer be the one who makes more excuses and have a harder time walking away?

I think you're kind of on to something re: Dean and Sam there.

On the second part: I think it depends on the lifelong believer.  I know some believers who are absolutely set in their very strict beliefs.  And those will no doubt be disappointed some day.  I know other life-long believers who are much more open to different opinions/interpretations.  It doesn't mean that their faith is any less strong than the former type.  Perhaps it is even stronger as it allows them some leeway.  

But for the believer who has very strict views, I think it would be easier to say "this is not my God." and walk away.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I mentioned this in the episode thread but maybe Mary is soulless.

I understand what you are saying and why.  I really do.  But I don't think Mary is actually soulless.  It would probably make it easier for us (the segment of the audience who doesn't like/understand what Mary is doing) if she were!

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

While it was wrong, do the Winchester actually have money they can give Cas?  

Eh, well, @Katy M beat me to it!

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

On a semi-related note in About a Boy, they gave Tina all the cash they had on them and gave her a ride to the bus station.

Exactly.  Which is why when Claire was sent off sans money and retroactively when Cas was kicked out, it made no sense that we didn't see Dean give him something to tied him over. 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Honestly this is why I loath episodes like Sacrifice, Red Trash, and Brother's Keeper.  <snip>I won't even touch Red Trash

I would like to politely request that episodes be referred to as their correct names.  (Since the Golden Rule of the site is Be Civil, I think this falls under that.)  I realize that some people do not like certain episodes.  There are certain episodes I really do not like.  However, I find that referring to them with inflammatory names such as this is really disrespectful to those who might like the episode - and it really does not help the argument at hand at all, imo.  In fact, once I read a disrespectful, inflammatory name for an episode, I immediately tune out the rest of the message - which might very well contain some wonderful insights!  

If it is too much to refer to an episode with the correct title, because you really, really, really, really, REALLY dont' like it...perhaps simply typing the season.number would do.  (Ex: 11.17)

Thank you.  

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My head!canon is there is a secret group of demons and angels who clean up everything to make sure the world stays just as it is.

Lol.  Do they run into each other while "cleaning up"?  And do they disagree about how to 'clean up'? I think I need to see them in an episode now!

Edited by RulerofallIsurvey · Reason: you know, grammar and such. What a pain in the ass, right?
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