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Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

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4 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Busted!  Just twice I'd like to see ...

The actor that played the professor was the doctor tending to Sam in the season 9 premiere.  Does that help for a positive character?

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3 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Meh.  Dean's not one to talk about his past wounds.  Him never talking about what the hellhounds did to him doesn't seem particularly out of character to me, nor does it seem like a writing fail.

Dean doesn't have to be the character that talks about his history, but the show could readily have any other character acknowledge it. Heck maybe even a flashback like we got with Sam's Lucifer redux in s11. A brief snippet...even the little flashes of Dean's eyes  at the beginning of Lazurus Rising would be a fantastic reminder that yes Dean went to Hell and couple that with Jensen's hesitation.  It's the lack of acknowledgment in the text when the moment calls for it. 

Intentional or not, I can't say but it effectively does bury much of Dean's rich history. It's kind of baffling to me why it happens.

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1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought the Lily Sunder ep was okay, with a relatively simply but enganging story and good guest performances. Dean didn`t really feature much in that either but I get the feeling Yockey likes the character a lot more than Perez.

I thought that the Lily Saunders episode was okay also, but I was talking about "Regarding Dean" (I should've made that more clear). I actually liked "Regarding Dean" better than "Lily Saunders..." even though, arguably, Sam acted like a complete amateur when going after those witches in that episode. I still enjoyed the episode, and chalked it up to Sam being upset and so he was off his game. I doubt the writer did it to make some kind of comment about what a crappy hunter Sam was. That's just what happens on this show sometimes. One week Dean gets the save, one week Sam does, one week they both do, and the next time the person of the week/guest star gets it. As long as they don't go another entire season or two where Sam gets only a couple of kills all season - which is pretty damn crappy for a hunter - while Dean kills everything in sight, I'm good.

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22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As long as they don't go another entire season or two where Sam gets only a couple of kills all season - which is pretty damn crappy for a hunter - while Dean kills everything in sight, I'm good.

Eh, that won't happen.  Not unless they give Dean the Mark again.

That was not a challenge, show.

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19 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

That was not a challenge, show.

Way to go, DD! Now you jinxed it. ; )

I mean they can't give him the mark again, can they? (They said Dean couldn't take it again.) But don't give them ideas for something else. (I wouldn't want a Michael's lance = the first blade sort of thing repeat, for example.)

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12 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I think I'd feel better about this if -- in 12 years -- we could point to one semi-recurring black character who wasn't intense and angry all the time.  Charlie, Jody, Jo, Lisa, Garth, Tessa, Hannah, Ash, Kate, Amelia, Donna, Pamela, Andy, Aaron, Harry, Ed, Ron, Harry Groener's professor guy ... etc.  The list goes on and on with recurring kind-hearted white people with unique personalities (not saying they're all well-written).  Even Kevin and Mrs. Tran fall into this mold.  Just once, can't they go to the local college and find a black professor to help them?

Also, I think it bothers me the way they've doubled-up on douchebags.  There aren't many black characters on the show to begin with, but they find room to make two of the biggest dick-angels of all time black people (Raphael twice!)?  Same with Gordon and Henricksen -- different sides of the same single-minded obsessive hunter trying to take down our heroes.  Just feels like the show has kind of a narrow view of what a black man can be, even if the character is well-written and brilliantly acted.

Anyway, I hear both of your perspectives and appreciate them, but ultimately I think I just want to see a black family man from the suburbs who isn't a well-trained assassin. :)

I agree with your points that there are many ways that they could include more black characters. I was pleasantly surprised with Max and Alicia from the Asa Fox ep and happy that they weren't one of the casualties at the end of the show. That being said I hope that they appear again and weren't a one off. I don't know if you're aware of this but I read recently that Missouri was supposed to appear more than once but the actress was unavailable. The character of Bobby was created to be their mentor instead. Maybe if she had stuck around she would have been more fleshed out than she was shown in Home.

As to the angels I am 100% behind you on this. I don't know who was worse: Raphael or Uriel. Joshua was probably one of the kindest angels we've seen but since he was supposed to watch over the garden ( I think? ) I assume that's why he wasn't shown again.

Edited by DeeDee79 · Reason: their and there have different meanings
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@catrox14

Sam and Dean's inconsistent view of Castiel has long been a source of bitterness for me.  Castiel's importance to the brother has always been varied depending on who wrote the episode and the actual plot of the episode. For instance, in seasons past, if it was an Adam Glass episode you could be almost guaranteed that the only people who mattered to Sam and Dean were each other. Castiel and any one else they designated as family were suddenly forgotten. On the other hand, writers such as Ben Edlund were much more likely to treat him as family and a significant figure in the brothers (especially Dean's) life.

The absolute worst case of it for me has to be the inconsistency between Torn and Frayed and LARP and the Real Girl. At the end of Torn and Frayed the brothers are shown to be extremely worried that something is wrong with Cas, someone they care deeply for. An ep later and there they are happily LARPing away without a care in the world, ugh.

Honestly, I think the writing team is as varied as fandom in their preferences and that comes across in their scripts. You have brothers only writers who only place importance on Sam and Dean and have little interest in the others (as mentioned a prominent example of this is Adam Glass who hadn't written a episode featuring Cas since season six when he left at the end of season 10). Then you have writers such as Edlund and Dabb who seem to be much more invested in team free will and allowing others to join in.

I mainly mention former writers because I think the current team are still far too new for me to get a read on their feelings for Cas. 

Edited by Wayward Son
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12 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

The absolute worst case of it for me has to be the inconsistency between Torn and Frayed and LARP and the Real Girl. At the end of Torn and Frayed the brothers are shown to be extremely worried that something is wrong with Cas, someone they care deeply for. An ep later and there they are happily LARPing away without a care in the world, ugh.

The way I see it is that Cas wasn't in that episode.  They don't have a way to track an angel down, so they worked a case. That's what they always do when they can't do the big thing they want to do.  And they weren't discussing him, because they already discussed how they were worried about him last epi. They had nothing new to add to the discussion.  Plus, it's a TV show and some people only watch an epi or two, so you don't want to have long conversations about characters who aren't in that episode, nor are integral to that episode's plot.

In Free to Be You and Me, Cas asked Dean where Sam was and Dean said they were taking separate vacations for a while.  Dean didn't mention Sam again until the end of the episode.  I think Sam only mentioned Dean to Lindsay to say that he used to work with his brother. Are we to conclude from this that they didn't care about each other and weren't worried about each other?  Not at all.  They just didn't have anything to say about it.  They had discussed splitting up with each other at the end of the previous episode, and that was that until Sam freaked out about being Lucifer's vessel.

On the other hand, my opinion on the matter might be affected, because my unpopular opinion is I would be happy if we never saw or heard from Cas again.

Edited by Katy M

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Re: characters of color, I wonder if the fact that there are so few is more related to the lack of diversity of BC than the show actually choosing to cast that way. While I understand that Vancouver is more diverse than the rest of BC, the prominent minority is various Asian groups, and not Africans. Residents of African origins only make up 1% of the population. The demographics are about halfway down this link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver

Don't they cast primarily from the Canadian actors that live in the area?

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12 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

The absolute worst case of it for me has to be the inconsistency between Torn and Frayed and LARP and the Real Girl. At the end of Torn and Frayed the brothers are shown to be extremely worried that something is wrong with Cas, someone they care deeply for. An ep later and there they are happily LARPing away without a care in the world, ugh.

I get why it's bothersome when they drop a lighter hearted MoTW after heavy emotional episodes. I don't think it was meant to be that the boys no longer cared about Cas though. After they parted ways in Torn and Frayed, there were mentions of Cas in that Dean was trying to reach him but he wasn't answering not even by prayer.  Not solely for their needs but out of concern for him as well being concerned about his actions. IMO

It was kind of clunky since they didn't have Misha as a regular and they were setting up the big Cas reveal in Goodbye Stranger when he was tasked with killing Dean because Naomi was brainwashing him for a while.

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3 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Re: characters of color, I wonder if the fact that there are so few is more related to the lack of diversity of BC than the show actually choosing to cast that way. While I understand that Vancouver is more diverse than the rest of BC, the prominent minority is various Asian groups, and not Africans. Residents of African origins only make up 1% of the population. The demographics are about halfway down this link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver

Don't they cast primarily from the Canadian actors that live in the area?

If the primary groups consist of persons of Asian ethnicity than there could be more representation of them as well.  It would certainly be better than the long running Busty Asian Beauties gag. I find that disgusting but maybe I'm a prude.

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16 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

If the primary groups consist of persons of Asian ethnicity than there could be more representation of them as well.  It would certainly be better than the long running Busty Asian Beauties gag. I find that disgusting but maybe I'm a prude.

That can only occur if they are available and audition. While there's a large Asian population, that doesn't mean that there are a significant number of Asian actors. I understand your frustration with not seeing diversity but I don't think the show is choosing to not cast a more diverse guest cast. I think they are hampered by who is available. That's why we've seen actors repeat in different roles.

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55 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Re: characters of color, I wonder if the fact that there are so few is more related to the lack of diversity of BC than the show actually choosing to cast that way. While I understand that Vancouver is more diverse than the rest of BC, the prominent minority is various Asian groups, and not Africans. Residents of African origins only make up 1% of the population. The demographics are about halfway down this link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver

Don't they cast primarily from the Canadian actors that live in the area?

IIRC I think  someone on the production said there is a requirement/law that an American production shooting in Vancouver must hire a certain percentage of Canadian cast and crew.  So that probably limits their casting choices as well.

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3 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

That can only occur if they are available and audition. While there's a large Asian population, that doesn't mean that there are a significant number of Asian actors. I understand your frustration with not seeing diversity but I don't think the show is choosing to not cast a more diverse guest cast. I think they are hampered by who is available. That's why we've seen actors repeat in different roles.

I highly doubt that minority actors are such a rarity that they can't find more than one or two every few seasons to include. I remember when the X-Files filmed in Vancouver and even Suits which I followed for a few years had the same stipulations in regards to picking from the available Canadian actors before looking elsewhere and as I recall both shows had more diversity. I understand many people may not agree and I don't expect them to.

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From the episode thread:

Quote

So Sam got to be the one to stab the Prince with the Spear.

I would have watched this episode if not for this scene. I've seen gifs on tumblr of Dean in this episode and he does appear to be in the leadership role in this episode, and if so, it was the least the writer could have done for him, IMO. But of all the kills all season long that they could have given to Sam and of all the weapons they could have given him to do that, it almost seemed intentional on the writer's part that it be a kill of a being that has been described as a cross between a poor man's Cain and the YED, and with a weapon that the Archangel Michael had made.

I think every writer and showrunner on this show is well aware of the fact that in S5, Dean was set up to be Michaels' OTV and I also think that they are well aware of how deeply disappointed many in the Dean/JA fandom were in never having been allowed to see Jensen in that role. Many of us dreamed of it. So now, any time we get even an inkling that Michael might be coming back, hope is reignited for that or something/ANYTHING! Dean/Michael related. For the writers to do what they did in this episode after never having delivered on anything Michael-related for Dean since S5(when we were also only teased, at best)seems especially spiteful and cruel of the showrunner and writers, IMO. They know how to make it up to us, but if they not only refuse to do that, but insist on twisting the knife. Then they can take any episode that they do that in and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, AFAIC.

And I don't expect everyone to understand that kind of disappointment, but that won't change the fact that to no few in this fandom it has reached the level of dislike/disappointment that those numerous and awful boo hoo speeches Dean used to receive has reached. It was not a trifling thing that Sam used the Spear of Michael to kill a Prince of Hell, IMO; and I think the writer of this episode felt that way, too and I further think that Dabb/Singer felt that way. Time will tell.

For the record, I'd likely watch this one after the season is over if by the end Dean's connection with Michael is re-established in a more satisfying way than it's been in the past AKA other than just a tease.

Edited by Myrelle
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My unpopular opinion is that I never want to see Dean as Michael's vessel.  Never have, never will.  

I hated the Mark of Cain storyline (and Demon Dean) because it wasn't Dean.  I like Dean, I want to see Dean, not an angelic or demonic version of him.  I don't want to see him with superpowers.  I want Dean to remain human, with all the flaws that come with being human.  Because that's why he's interesting to me.  

That's why the show itself was interesting to me in the first place!  Here are these two guys, these two hard-working, blue collar guys, trying to save people in a world of monsters and magic.  Then Sam developed his demon blood powers and became boring to me.  But Dean remained human, despite the magic and monsters and demons and witches and every horrible thing in Heaven and Hell and on Earth that could have changed him.

Then Carver came along and destroyed it.  And I will never forgive him for that.  But Dean was cured and lost the Mark of Cain and went back to being Dean.  That's why S11 is so much better to me than S8-10.  

Please, show, I beg of you, keep Dean human.

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1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

My unpopular opinion is that I never want to see Dean as Michael's vessel.  Never have, never will.  

I hated the Mark of Cain storyline (and Demon Dean) because it wasn't Dean.  I like Dean, I want to see Dean, not an angelic or demonic version of him.  I don't want to see him with superpowers.  I want Dean to remain human, with all the flaws that come with being human.  Because that's why he's interesting to me.  

That's why the show itself was interesting to me in the first place!  Here are these two guys, these two hard-working, blue collar guys, trying to save people in a world of monsters and magic.  Then Sam developed his demon blood powers and became boring to me.  But Dean remained human, despite the magic and monsters and demons and witches and every horrible thing in Heaven and Hell and on Earth that could have changed him.

Then Carver came along and destroyed it.  And I will never forgive him for that.  But Dean was cured and lost the Mark of Cain and went back to being Dean.  That's why S11 is so much better to me than S8-10.  

Please, show, I beg of you, keep Dean human.

This is an unpopular opinion I share. It's also why I love Swan Song, which also seems to be an unpopular opinion, on here at least. I would much rather the show end the Lucifer arc with Dean and Sam's bonds of love and family saving the day than some epic Sam!Lucifer vs Dean!Michael grudge match.  

And I think the Swan Song take of things remained true to the shows central focus on as Sera Gamble would call it "the love story of Sam and Dean". (And no I don't mean that in a Winceat way)

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My unpopular opinion(I think it's unpopular here anyway) is that I'd like Dean's connection to Michael re-established if Michael or anything Michael-related winds up playing a part in the rest of this season. He doesn't have to be Michael's vessel(although I'd love that) for it to be satisfying to me.

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This is an unpopular opinion I share. It's also why I love Swan Song, which also seems to be an unpopular opinion, on here at least. I would much rather the show end the Lucifer arc with Dean and Sam's bonds of love and family saving the day than some epic Sam!Lucifer vs Dean!Michael grudge match.  

But that still could have been done with the Original plan with Dean saying yes to Michael and Sam saying yes to Lucifer would have accomplished this.  They could have each overcome their respective arch angel and jumped together.

Being possessed doesn't' destroy a person's humanity.  Michael possessing Dean doesn't make him any less human than when Sam was possessed.

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And I think the Swan Song take of things remained true to the shows central focus on as Sera Gamble would call it "the love story of Sam and Dean". 

To me, it remained true to the central focus on "Sam is the hero, Dean is at best a sidekick we will discard from the story like trash". That`s why I hate this episode like no other. IMO familial love didn`t save the day, only Sam did. But then I never think the "wind beneath your wind" character really means anything if that is all they are.   

I was close to stop watching the show if Season 3 hadn`t ended with Dean in hell and thus presumably giving a mytharc. I was so happy with Season 4. And then Season 5 came along and ruined everything.

After the horrible Season 8.B and 9.A, I was close to giving up again and then First born and the Mark of Cain happened. Hallelujah. Only reason to keep watching. Though I spend every single episode of that arc terrified they would take it from him again. Season 10 Finale was a huge disappointment and only the surprise Amara connection in the Season 11 Opener gave me some hope. 

Dean has been human for the most part on this show and I assume they will keep him that - Dabb has no interest in the character, other than "weak and pathetic" - but I would personally love it if he got another supernatural arc. Supernatural characters in and of themselves aren`t boring to me, quite the opposite.

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2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me, it remained true to the central focus on "Sam is the hero, Dean is at best a sidekick we will discard from the story like trash". That`s why I hate this episode like no other. IMO familial love didn`t save the day, only Sam did. But then I never think the "wind beneath your wind" character really means anything if that is all they are.   

I

That's how I felt too.  Especially with the addition of the toy solider.   I'll never understand why the show felt the need to add an avatar for Dean when Dean was right there.   That weakened the connection Sam and Dean had for me.   Why wasn't Dean just reassuring Sam enough?  Why did Sam need to see his plastic toy before he could remember everything he and Dean went through? 

Every member of Dean's family has tried to kill him while possessed.  Sam's the only one that needed a prop.  Its my my unpopular opinion out of the all the times they've done that scenario Swan Song is the weakest.

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19 hours ago, Katy M said:

The way I see it is that Cas wasn't in that episode.  They don't have a way to track an angel down, so they worked a case. That's what they always do when they can't do the big thing they want to do.  And they weren't discussing him, because they already discussed how they were worried about him last epi. They had nothing new to add to the discussion.  Plus, it's a TV show and some people only watch an epi or two, so you don't want to have long conversations about characters who aren't in that episode, nor are integral to that episode's plot.

 

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I get why it's bothersome when they drop a lighter hearted MoTW after heavy emotional episodes. I don't think it was meant to be that the boys no longer cared about Cas though. After they parted ways in Torn and Frayed, there were mentions of Cas in that Dean was trying to reach him but he wasn't answering not even by prayer.  Not solely for their needs but out of concern for him as well being concerned about his actions. IMO

It was kind of clunky since they didn't have Misha as a regular and they were setting up the big Cas reveal in Goodbye Stranger when he was tasked with killing Dean because Naomi was brainwashing him for a while.

I've never been one of those fans who insist on Castiel being in every episode, or that he even needs a mention in every episode. However, the tonal dissonance between the conclusion of Torn and Frayed and LARP and the Real Girl was jarring and paints a pretty ugly pictures of the brothers in my opinion.

At the end of Torn and Frayed the brothers are played as feeling extremely concerned for Castiel. There is blood oozing out of his eye suggesting he is not at his peak and later they discuss the possibility that someone is messing with him. Then we jump to LARP and the Real Girl  where the first brothers scene consists of Dean stating the following; "Let's take the night off, maybe see a flick, hit a bar or two, have fun" without any consideration of trying to find Castiel and that is before the hunt comes along to distract them. I'm sorry but the sudden shift is just jarring for me. I can not imagine the brothers behaving in such a way had it been Bobby or someone else they cared for in clear distress. 

Others are of course free to see things how they want, but I'll always have a negative viewpoint of their behaviour in that episode due to the circumstances that occurred in the episode preceding it. 

 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But that still could have been done with the Original plan with Dean saying yes to Michael and Sam saying yes to Lucifer would have accomplished this.  They could have each overcome their respective arch angel and jumped together.

Being possessed doesn't' destroy a person's humanity.  Michael possessing Dean doesn't make him any less human than when Sam was possessed.

 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me, it remained true to the central focus on "Sam is the hero, Dean is at best a sidekick we will discard from the story like trash". That`s why I hate this episode like no other. IMO familial love didn`t save the day, only Sam did. But then I never think the "wind beneath your wind" character really means anything if that is all they are.   

I was close to stop watching the show if Season 3 hadn`t ended with Dean in hell and thus presumably giving a mytharc. I was so happy with Season 4. And then Season 5 came along and ruined everything.

After the horrible Season 8.B and 9.A, I was close to giving up again and then First born and the Mark of Cain happened. Hallelujah. Only reason to keep watching. Though I spend every single episode of that arc terrified they would take it from him again. Season 10 Finale was a huge disappointment and only the surprise Amara connection in the Season 11 Opener gave me some hope. 

Dean has been human for the most part on this show and I assume they will keep him that - Dabb has no interest in the character, other than "weak and pathetic" - but I would personally love it if he got another supernatural arc. Supernatural characters in and of themselves aren`t boring to me, quite the opposite.

I disagree that it could have been the same had they both been possessed. The scene clearly shows that Sam's ability to fight off Lucifer was not instantaneous. Sam needed to see Dean's unconditional love in action, to hear his plea of "I'll never leave you", which then led to him regaining control after remembering all they've shared together. Had both brothers been possessed the two would have been overwhelmed by their respective archangel and the fight would have begun as planned.

I can understand that this scene may not have been to everyone's tastes, that they may have preferred for it to have gone differently be it Dean possessed instead of Sam, both brothers possessed. However, I will never agree with the idea that the intention behind the scene was to depict Sam as the hero and Dean as the inconsequential sidekick. The scene was intended to be a culmination of the shows key theme of the love between the Winchester brothers overcoming all and allowing them to save the world. Whether one enjoyed the way they handled it or not is entirely subjective, but to suggest the intention behind the scene was anything but that is erroneous in my opinion. 

Here is a quote from Eric Kripke himself given during an interview which states as much

Quote

Salvation of the planet depended on both of them acting equally, and had Dean not decided to sacrifice himself and go to be with his brother because the love of family and the relationship between them trumped all, and had he not learned to forgive his brother and love him over years of experience on the show, then he never would have gone out there, Sam would have never seen him, he never would have seen the car, and he never would have had the strength to take over his body and save the world. That was a two-man job.

Anyway, since this thread is not meant to be about debate I am going to make this post the last I say on the subject. We will have to agree to disagree on the issue :) 

Edited by Wayward Son
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I know this quote by Kripke and to me it just adds insult to injury, like I hate everything about it. Dean needed to learn to love Sam better over the course of the show? Like, fuck everything. That is the entire message I hated during Season 5. 

But like I said, I hate the Yellow Crayon concept to begin with. I never credited Xander with saving the world in Season 6 of Buffy either for delivering one either. 

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The quote by Kripke gives more credit to the car than to Dean.  Imagine if Dean kept that toy solider in the glove compartment and it wasn't there for Sam to see or Cas had just enough mojo to beam Dean to that cemetery.     Kripke also said that Dean had to learn to love Sam more and accept his cool powers and how Dean would never have showed up in s1.  (I guess we're just supposed to ignore Dean selling his soul).

Kripke also talked about how shocked he was at the level of vitriol that many fans showed toward this ep and his story kept changing.  First he said that he only got about 80% of what he wanted, and that kept going down and he talked about how the ep was really only about 50% of his intentions.  Maybe he should have written it himself rather than passing it off to some unknown.  

That quote sounds like damage control to counteract the "What about Dean" questions he was being given.  I disagree it was Dean's unconditional love.   Because Dean showing up wasn't want allowed Sam to get to his memories.   If the show wanted me to come away thinking that they should have had Dean's reassuring and promising be what accessed those memories.   It was memories of Dean, not Dean's physical presence.  That for me was the massive failure of the scene.  . 

  Why wasn't Dean standing right in front of Sam enough?

Because "learning to love and scarifice himself for his brother" was a lesson Dean never should have been shown to have learn on his show when he learned it when he was four.

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My unpopular opinion, in addition to what Aeryn13 and ILoveReading have been saying about the replacement of Dean with a lame green army man in the S5 finale showing how completely unnecessary Dean is to that actual story (not to mention the continued constant reminders of this in several episodes in recent seasons), is that there is no "bro-bond" except when the writers have Sam choose to used it to manipulate Dean or create angst in some way. In actualilty, it has been shown since S1 that Sam has very little respect or liking of Dean as a person except as far as he can use and manipulate Dean for his own ego stroking or to clean up after the constant messes that Sam creates by ignoring Dean's "bossiness, weakness, lack of vision, etc." 

The supposed "bro-bond/brotherly love" is a load of crock and, if it happened to someone you knew in real life, you would be advocating for that person to get as far away from that toxic relationship as possible. So my unpopular opinion is that the bro-bond is fact and used to commit greater atrocities than "heroes" should, like "releasing the darkness", which turned out to be yet another load of crap, much like the "Year of the Deanmon"

That leads me to another unpopular opinion that I loved Demon Dean because at least he was released of the shackle around his neck and allowed him to vent some of the things that he constantly has to hold inside him to protect those that constantly dump on him.

Another unpopular opinion is that I wish Sam had gone with Amelia or anyone else and stayed gone. There is no amount of redemption that will take back leaving his brother in Purgatory on top of everything previously much less the "Purge" speech that he never really apologized for (no, telling Charlie doesn't count and telling Dean he knew Sam didn't mean it doesn't excuse it when obviously Dean didn't since he felt he had to bring it up a year and a half later). Plus, Sam had been proven time and again as someone who will betray anyone and everyone whenever he feels justified without feeling remorse because he always thinks he knows better.

Which leads me to the unpopular opinion that this show needs to end very soon as the writing quality takes huge dips in quality every year. I can't name a single episode in the last 3 seasons (since "Reichenbach") that I would willingly/intentionally rewatch. Due to the Js contracted time off (which they do more than deserve), it is now a show that the brothers guest star in more than star in according to the writing. I don't watch for guest stars. I watch for Dean/Jensen who is constantly advertised to bring in viewers then relegated to observer in most episodes. And, Heaven forbid, he actually have a storyline that doesn't revolve around Sam. I would rather watch Dean with anyone else as at least he is treated with more respect by most of his potential enemies (Crowley, Rowena, Cain, Benny, etc.). It's only his family (Sam, Mary, John, Bobby) that consider him "weak, bossy, short, a non-person, perfect little soldier, little green army man, etc.).

Lastly, I know Jensen is making the best decision for him and his family (immediate and crew), especially in light of his most recent, precious additions, but, man, do I wish he would leave the albatross around his neck and be able to go to a production that actually appreciate the amazing, talented person he is without taking constant advantage.

Ok. rant over for now.

Edited by Res
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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

ecause "learning to love and scarifice himself for his brother" was a lesson Dean never should have been shown to have learn on his show when he learned it when he was four.

For me it was bad enough that the teased for 2 FUCKING SEASONS the battle royale between brothers both human and angels and then pull a whole other brother out of their ass to use him instead of Dean. 

I could buy Dean showing up to be with Sam as he dies COULD have been the key to Sam getting the edge on Lucifer but HOLY CRAP, the editing does not support that idea at all.  It really pretty much subverts it IMO. Which for the love of all things Winchester WHY if that was the story intended, did they allow that editing to stand?

The camera work had how many closeups of Dean not fighting back, crying and telling Sam he's not leaving him while his face is being pummeled into a bloody pulp at Samifer's hand, yet in the PIVOTAL moment that Sam breaks through and gains control of Lucifer, they don't go with intense eye contact between Dean and Sam but instead the director/writers/editor opt for a closeup of ONLY Sam's eyeball, which by happenstance, sees the toy soldier, that triggers the trip down memory lane, which has the unintended (if I'm  being generous) implication that the toy soldier had more influence on Sam and/or Lucifer, than the brother that saved his life repeatedly since he was 4 and actually died to ensure Sam stayed alive.  

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How I feel about Swan Song.  

On 1/26/2015 at 5:23 PM, Demented Daisy said:

I have largely refrained from discussing Swan Song because, in the end, I was never sure how I felt about it.  But now, almost 5 years later, I think I finally have some clarity.

Everything that follows is my opinion, as this is the Unpopular Opinions thread.

Sam did not save the world on his own.  Dean absolutely had to be there, to give Sam the strength he needed to regain control of his body and jump into the pit.

The green army man was only ever a green army man.  On its own, it has no power.  Have you ever sorted through your attic or an old closet and found something that you forgot you had?  And when you saw it, held it in your hands, it brought back powerful memories and emotions?  That's what the green army man did.  For a moment, it brought back every good feeling Sam had for Dean.  That love allowed him to regain control.

And Dean....  Dean did what he had to do -- that's what he did his whole life.  Without Dean's love, his sacrifice, his absolute determination to take care of his little brother at all costs, Sam and Adam would have waged war that day.

Everything that Dean ever did for Sam mattered in that one moment.  And Dean had to be there, to remind Sam of everything they had endured -- together.  In that one moment, it was absolute, unconditional love that saved the world.

It wasn't Sam; it wasn't Dean.  It was love.

The green army man gave Sam something that adult Dean could not -- it reminded Sam of all the good memories they shared as children.  

Harry Potter references ahead, so I'll spoiler tag.

Spoiler

When Voldemort possessed Harry in Order of the Phoenix, it wasn't Dumbledore that saved Harry.  It wasn't even Harry himself.  When his friends entered the atrium and Harry was reminded of the love that he had for his family and friends, he was finally able to force Voldemort out.  He never stopped loving them, he just needed something -- or a group of people -- to remind him that he had everything that Voldemort would never have.

That's what Sam got from that green army man -- a lifetime of memories with Dean.

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3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I know this quote by Kripke and to me it just adds insult to injury, like I hate everything about it. Dean needed to learn to love Sam better over the course of the show?

I had not seen that entire quote before, but seeing it now, I got something a little different from it than you did. And that's because the order is important to me. The quote says "...had he not learned to forgive his brother and love him over years of experience on the show, then he never would have gone out there..." The forgive is that important part for me. What Kripke should have said was "loved," as that would've likely been more accurate... but in a way my unpopular opinion is that Dean did have to learn to "love" Sam, not because he didn't love Sam, that was never a question, but in my opinion, he needed to learn to love Sam differently. Dean needed to let go of kid Sam and the Sam he knew before and love Sam for who he was now and that only came from the "experience" they shared throughout the show's run. And Sam had to do the same... and that was actually a lesson Sam learned more than one time over the show - starting for him back in season 1 with "Something Wicked" - and the most recent being again in season 10. It's not something unique to Dean having to "learn."


As for "Swan Song," my unpopular opinion is that it wasn't Sam who needed to see the green army man necessarily - though I do love your interpretation @Demented Daisy - because Sam had been fighting from the beginning when he let Lucifer in. Lucifer even alluded to Sam fighting him throughout the episode. Sam knew Dean loved him and had always loved him, but who did need to see the memories that green army man elicited was Lucifer. Having Dean right there was only half the story for Lucifer, because he was intent on beating him up and Lucifer knew Dean was trying to stop the apocalypse, but the green army man triggered Sam's memories that Dean had always been there for Sam through everything, even the bad times, even though Sam had let Dean down... but his brother, Michael... a big old nope. His brother showed up to kill him, not be with him. His brother was not going to "walk off the chess board" and support him unconditionally. To Lucifer, Michael saw killing Lucifer as a directive given to him by "Dad," and unlike Dean - who dismissed John's directive even though it appeared that Sam had fallen off the wagon more than once (especially in "Born Under a Bad Sign") - Michael intended to do it.

For me, it was Lucifer's gaze that saw the green army man (to me that looked like a Lucifer face, not a Sam face). And seeing all of Sam's memories just reminded Lucifer that his brother never cared about him as much as Dean cared about Sam... ego entirely bruised, and similar to how the pain of childbirth made the demon in "I Believe the Children" vulnerable after months and months of the host not being able to do anything,  I think this bruise to Lucifer's huge ego ("How can Sam's brother love him and will defy his Dad for him when mine won't?") made him vulnerable, and that's when Sam was able to take advantage and take over (the face turned over to Sam's gaze... and he almost seemed surprised that he was able to break through all of  sudden.) So for me, the green army man and all it represented was for Lucifer to see, and was necessary to bruise Lucifer's ego and make him vulnerable for that one moment.

I understand that this is somewhat complicated and is just my interpretation, but it's a narrative I came up with after considering all of the parallels - which the show seems to love - and examples/situations we were given, and that one in "I Believe..." with the detailed story and explanation, I think, was put there for a reason - the explanation of the vulnerability that allowed the woman to take over. So putting all of that together, I came up with my theory / narrative.

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

For me it was bad enough that the teased for 2 FUCKING SEASONS the battle royale between brothers both human and angels and then pull a whole other brother out of their ass to use him instead of Dean. 

I could buy Dean showing up to be with Sam as he dies COULD have been the key to Sam getting the edge on Lucifer but HOLY CRAP, the editing does not support that idea at all.  It really pretty much subverts it IMO. Which for the love of all things Winchester WHY if that was the story intended, did they allow that editing to stand?

The camera work had how many closeups of Dean not fighting back, crying and telling Sam he's not leaving him while his face is being pummeled into a bloody pulp at Samifer's hand, yet in the PIVOTAL moment that Sam breaks through and gains control of Lucifer, they don't go with intense eye contact between Dean and Sam but instead the director/writers/editor opt for a closeup of ONLY Sam's eyeball, which by happenstance, sees the toy soldier, that triggers the trip down memory lane, which has the unintended (if I'm  being generous) implication that the toy soldier had more influence on Sam and/or Lucifer, than the brother that saved his life repeatedly since he was 4 and actually died to ensure Sam stayed alive.  

I too have a lot of problems with Swan Song, and I really hate the episode for all the reasons that have already been stated - making the car and a stupid piece of plastic that never made a single appearance until then more important than Dean's very existence, much less his bloody pulp of a beautiful face; throwing away Dean's role as Michael's vessel to someone seriously unimportant in the grand scheme of things; and the way I felt like a sucker for believing in the "brotherly bond" and "family" aspect of it when it was clear the showrunner didn't care at the end. Plus, suddenly being all addiction!yay! WRT the stupid blood drinking that never made any sense (it was like Kripke's version of an anti-After School Special where he's telling the kids, 'go forth and drink and do drugs, kiddies - that's what makes you special!'). Not to mention the overall anti-humanity message given the way it played out.

But my biggest beef is exactly what you're saying here, how two entire years of mytharc and story-telling went down the toilet and was rendered moot. The way finale was written, frankly, Dean never had to go to Hell in the first place, or at least never had to be saved given his incredible lack of role when it came down to it. For me that's the biggest sin.

And everything else you're saying too. I honestly don't think it was a good episode, and I believe Kripke knew it which is why he included that whine of Chuck's about not pleasing fans. He knew before it aired he was going to piss off a lot of fandom. He just didn't care at that point. And, again, if he didn't care, then why should I?

Though I think depending on where you post or who you're talking to, not liking SS isn't necessarily an unpopular opinion - it probably both is and isn't.

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but in a way my unpopular opinion is that Dean did have to learn to "love" Sam, not because he didn't love Sam, that was never a question, but in my opinion, he needed to learn to love Sam differently. Dean needed to let go of kid Sam and the Sam he knew before and love Sam for who he was now and that only came from the "experience" they shared throughout the show's run. And Sam had to do the same... and that was actually a lesson Sam learned more than one time over the show - starting for him back in season 1 with "Something Wicked" - and the most recent being again in season 10. It's not something unique to Dean having to "learn."

But the quote only harps on Dean learning something over the course of the show and then presto, Sam has the strength to save the world. Doesn`t sound like Sam had to learn or change something, just wait for dumb Dean to catch up to his awesomeness.

I can never really get one of those early drafts of the SPN Pilot out of my head that really had Dean as just the negative figure to Sam`s awesomeness. And Sam was right on every issue, even contradicting ones. That thing was bad and obviously someone talked Kripke out of the extreme Gary Stu-dom but it was his initial vision of the characters. And I can`t remember if it was that one or another draft where John and Mary just "joked" about throwing toddler Dean out of his room and put him up in the attic to make room for baby Sam. So Kripke is a younger brother and he probably used to have some revenge fantasies against an older sibling and stuff like that which made it into his writing. Which, to be frank, is how the Season 5 Finale feels to me. Like "haha, in the end the younger one is the hero and the older one is the zero, score".        

In the end, I have just such a visceral loathing of that entire episode and especially that scene on the field, when they put clips from it in previouslies, I turn my head and hope it goes away. That episode with Lucifer last year that had actual flashbacks to it and referenced it, I fast-forwarded that because I can not take any reminder to those scenes. Now I own Season 5 on DVD because I like the beginning but if it were physically possible to scratch just that final episodes out of the disk, I would do it. Not even kidding.

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3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can never really get one of those early drafts of the SPN Pilot out of my head that really had Dean as just the negative figure to Sam`s awesomeness. And Sam was right on every issue, even contradicting ones. That thing was bad and obviously someone talked Kripke out of the extreme Gary Stu-dom but it was his initial vision of the characters. And I can`t remember if it was that one or another draft where John and Mary just "joked" about throwing toddler Dean out of his room and put him up in the attic to make room for baby Sam.

That sounds vile and it would have been completely unwatchable. If that was his original vision then he should have just created a show about Sam and his demon hunting adventures.

Edited by DeeDee79 · Reason: then not than

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12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can never really get one of those early drafts of the SPN Pilot out of my head that really had Dean as just the negative figure to Sam`s awesomeness.

So you're basically still holding a grudge for something that never happened?

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14 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

And everything else you're saying too. I honestly don't think it was a good episode, and I believe Kripke knew it which is why he included that whine of Chuck's about not pleasing fans. He knew before it aired he was going to piss off a lot of fandom. He just didn't care at that point. And, again, if he didn't care, then why should I?

I've read before that Kripke had planned to have both boys be vessels and jump into the pit together until they got the renewal which would explain the ending that gives a restart in s6, I think they still could have started with the boys in the pit and have Cas and Bobby trying to get them out instead of dumbass time jump and Dean with Lisa.  But that's just me.

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I've read before that Kripke had planned to have both boys be vessels and jump into the pit together until they got the renewal which would explain the ending that gives a restart in s6, I think they still could have started with the boys in the pit and have Cas and Bobby trying to get them out instead of dumbass time jump and Dean with Lisa.  But that's just me.

I'm not going to comment anymore on the purpose of the episode as I said earlier. However, what I will say is that in my opinion ending the show with both boys in the cage suffering in hell for all eternity would have been one of the most depressing ends to a tv show ever. I really don't understand why any Dean fans would have wanted that for him. 

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16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But the quote only harps on Dean learning something over the course of the show and then presto, Sam has the strength to save the world. Doesn`t sound like Sam had to learn or change something, just wait for dumb Dean to catch up to his awesomeness.

I can never really get one of those early drafts of the SPN Pilot out of my head that really had Dean as just the negative figure to Sam`s awesomeness. And Sam was right on every issue, even contradicting ones. That thing was bad and obviously someone talked Kripke out of the extreme Gary Stu-dom but it was his initial vision of the characters. And I can`t remember if it was that one or another draft where John and Mary just "joked" about throwing toddler Dean out of his room and put him up in the attic to make room for baby Sam. So Kripke is a younger brother and he probably used to have some revenge fantasies against an older sibling and stuff like that which made it into his writing. Which, to be frank, is how the Season 5 Finale feels to me. Like "haha, in the end the younger one is the hero and the older one is the zero, score".        

In the end, I have just such a visceral loathing of that entire episode and especially that scene on the field, when they put clips from it in previouslies, I turn my head and hope it goes away. That episode with Lucifer last year that had actual flashbacks to it and referenced it, I fast-forwarded that because I can not take any reminder to those scenes. Now I own Season 5 on DVD because I like the beginning but if it were physically possible to scratch just that final episodes out of the disk, I would do it. Not even kidding.

OMG. I have never heard about that before.  That is horrible. This makes me wonder if casting Jensen altered how Kripke saw Dean.  I also often wonder how much influence Kim Manners had over the direction of the show.

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2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

How I feel about Swan Song.  

The green army man gave Sam something that adult Dean could not -- it reminded Sam of all the good memories they shared as children.  

Harry Potter references ahead, so I'll spoiler tag.

  Reveal hidden contents

When Voldemort possessed Harry in Order of the Phoenix, it wasn't Dumbledore that saved Harry.  It wasn't even Harry himself.  When his friends entered the atrium and Harry was reminded of the love that he had for his family and friends, he was finally able to force Voldemort out.  He never stopped loving them, he just needed something -- or a group of people -- to remind him that he had everything that Voldemort would never have.

That's what Sam got from that green army man -- a lifetime of memories with Dean.

But why did Sam need to be reminded of memories they shared as children?  Everything we've seen of Sam's childhood he really didn't like, including preferring to spend holidays with other peoples's families.  We haven't seen Sam have a whole lot of happy child hood memories, with and without Dean.  He flat out said his happiest memory was getting away from their dad.  Dean had to point out Sam left him too. 

Why wasn't the sight of Dean enough? Admittedly its been awhile since I watched Harry Potter but I

Spoiler

Don't recall any of them having talismans that reminded Harry.  Just the sight of his friends was enough.

John didn't need to see his wedding ring.

Cas didn't need to see the handprint.

Bobby didn't need to see a picture of his wife.

Mary didn't need any props and the guy in front of her was basically a stranger.

Sam, who supposedly has the strongest connection is the only one that needed a reminder of what Dean meant to him.    Dean is the guy who literally sacrificed his whole life for Sam.  I find it contradictory to the message the show wanted to send when Dean reassuring Sam of that failed to have an effect on him. 

An avatar isn't needed if Dean was right in front of Sam.

Edited by ILoveReading
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So you're basically still holding a grudge for something that never happened?

I think it informed his writing for the show, even if he got talked out of the worst aspects. As for holding a grudge, if you will, I do that for stuff that did happen. That was bad enough for me.

Quote

However, what I will say is that in my opinion ending the show with both boys in the cage suffering in hell for all eternity would have been one of the most depressing ends to a tv show ever. I really don't understand why any Dean fans would have wanted that for him. 

I could easily make up a happy ending head canon afterwards. So just as I wanted him to go to hell to have a story, I would have been happy with him going to the Cage to have one. Sam went to the Cage and I thought he got by far the better ending to Dean there. My interest lies in my favourite characters getting awesome stories, not necessarily stuff that makes them happy. Actually, the two are almost always opposite.

Quote

But then I think the show has to end with Dean if not both Sam and Dean dead saving the world. But that's just me.

I agree, dying would be a good ending.

Heck, before that pissed the possibility away, my dream ending was always Dean becoming new Death after the old one retired. I`m sure the character would have hated becoming that but I sure wouldn`t have.

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1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not going to comment anymore on the purpose of the episode as I said earlier. However, what I will say is that in my opinion ending the show with both boys in the cage suffering in hell for all eternity would have been one of the most depressing ends to a tv show ever. I really don't understand why any Dean fans would have wanted that for him. 

Well sure it would be depressing but I've lived through the end of Angel so there you go. It would be tragic for sure. But I also feel like given what was being teased out for so long over 2 seasons it would not have been an inappropriate ending. Would I have been upset? Absolutely.  But then I think the show has to end with Dean if not both Sam and Dean dead saving the world. But that's just me.

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17 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not going to comment anymore on the purpose of the episode as I said earlier. However, what I will say is that in my opinion ending the show with both boys in the cage suffering in hell for all eternity would have been one of the most depressing ends to a tv show ever. I really don't understand why any Dean fans would have wanted that for him. 

It wouldn't have been eternity though, because the show was renewed.  They even could have done the souless Sam storyline.  Have Cas grab Dean first, and then he doesn't realize he didn't have enough mojo so when he grabbed Sam he left the soul.   You could have opened the season with the brothers meeting up and then over time revealing something wasn't quite right with Sam.   Much better than domestic Dean. 

As for why I want it for Dean, because its a fictional show. And I want to see exciting storylines.    It would give Jensen a great acting opportunity, a satisfying (for me) payoff to a two year storyline.  Watching Dean park a car and be a punching bag and a plastic toy have a bigger role wasn't intersting to me.  If i wanted to watch someone cook burgers, I'd watch Masterchef. 

Not a single good thing happened to Dean in s9, but I loved it because it entertained me. 

Edited by ILoveReading
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3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why wasn't the sight of Dean enough?

Because he was looking at Dean the whole time.  Like I said before, haven't you come across something you hadn't seen in years that caused a flood of memories and emotions?  IMO, that flood of memories is what gave Sam the strength and weakened Lucifer's hold on him.

Spoiler

Just like Harry and Voldemort.  His friends were not in the atrium when Voldemort possessed Harry.  It was just the 2 of them and Dumbledore.  Dumbledore was trying to convince Harry to fight, but it wasn't until the others joined them that the rush of love flooded Harry and weakened Voldemort.

Meanwhile, Sam was not trying to force Lucifer out.  He was trying to force him down, thereby regaining control of his own body.  A completely different situation from regaining control of your body from a demon.

Mileage, as always, varies.

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2 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Because he was looking at Dean the whole time.  Like I said before, haven't you come across something you hadn't seen in years that caused a flood of memories and emotions?  IMO, that flood of memories is what gave Sam the strength and weakened Lucifer's hold on him.

He was looking at Dean and beating him to death. That didn't stop until he was blinded by the sun reflecting off the car and then looked at the toy soldier. For me, it just comes back to crappy editing that did not help the case. If this had been a standard episode I could probably handwave it and make a head!canon but this was the finale of a  5year arc. My standards are on finales are pretty tough. LOL

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Just now, Demented Daisy said:

Because he was looking at Dean the whole time.  Like I said before, haven't you come across something you hadn't seen in years that caused a flood of memories and emotions?  IMO, that flood of memories is what gave Sam the strength and weakened Lucifer's hold on him.

  Reveal hidden contents

Just like Harry and Voldemort.  His friends were not in the atrium when Voldemort possessed Harry.  It was just the 2 of them and Dumbledore.  Dumbledore was trying to convince Harry to fight, but it wasn't until the others joined them that the rush of love flooded Harry and weakened Voldemort.

Meanwhile, Sam was not trying to force Lucifer out.  He was trying to force him down, thereby regaining control of his own body.  A completely different situation from regaining control of your body from a demon.

Mileage, as always, varies.

He wasn't looking at Dean the whole time.   When the light hit the Impala he broke eye contact and it landed on the toy solider.  It wasn't needed for the scene because Dean was right in front of him. 

Yes, I've come across things, but the memories tied to the objects isn't as strong as the feelings I get from my friends and family.  Id rather see the person who gave me the object rather than the object. It just made Sam look more attached to his memories than he was Dean as a person.

But we can just agree to disagree.

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My standards are on finales are pretty tough. LOL

Thing is, I never thought the show did great Finales, other than the very first one. They had more luck with Season Openers as I think two are really great at least. But Season Finales? I appreciated that the Season 3 Finale went there with sending Dean to hell but in and of itself it wasn`t the best episode. I hated the Season 2 one for the stupid deal. Season 4 was okay, Season 5 a complete travesty. Season 6 sucked balls. Season 7 was boring. Season 8 sucked almost as much as Season 5. Season 9, equally not a great episode on its own. Season 10 was a stupid mess again and Season 11 squandered the potential of the story a lot.

That really only leaves "Devil`s Trap" as a Finale I think was truly good.     

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7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yes, I've come across things, but the memories tied to the objects isn't as strong as the feelings I get from my friends and family.  Id rather see the person who gave me the object rather than the object. It just made Sam look more attached to his memories than he was Dean as a person.

The point is, it triggered the memories -- of Dean.  Every good memory of Dean he ever had, he felt in that moment.  And it allowed him to regain control.

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But we can just agree to disagree.

Indeed.  Because I have no interest in trying to convince anyone else, only express how I interpreted the episode.

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6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

However, the tonal dissonance between the conclusion of Torn and Frayed and LARP and the Real Girl was jarring and paints a pretty ugly pictures of the brothers in my opinion.

I totally agree, Wayward Son, but this show has horrendous pacing problems. I've seen this same tonal dissonance at least once (if not more) each season. Usually it occurs when the writers decide to throw in a comic or semi-comic MotW episode - but they throw it in after some heavy myth-arc episode instead of showing it in a different spot. Don't ask me why, for I cannot understand why they continue to do this. :(

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35 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I totally agree, Wayward Son, but this show has horrendous pacing problems. I've seen this same tonal dissonance at least once (if not more) each season. Usually it occurs when the writers decide to throw in a comic or semi-comic MotW episode - but they throw it in after some heavy myth-arc episode instead of showing it in a different spot. Don't ask me why, for I cannot understand why they continue to do this. :(

I don't get it other than maybe it's a scheduling/network directive. The kind of one-off lighter eps might pique the interest of a new viewer. OR the showrunner ( and all showrunners have done this) think it the audience needs a rest to let the story breathe. 

But I find it really throws off the pacing too much. I think it also depends on the writers. LIke in s4 from 4.16 to 4.19 was pretty heavy but they had It's a Terrible LIfe which was humorous but NOT blatantly 'a funny episode' it had a comedic element. In s5 there was Hammer of the Gods which again had some comedic elements but was not comedy so the pacing of the season wasn't totally destroyed by the wrong tone (they saved that destruction for Swan Song (YES I SNARK))

Edited by catrox14
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I can never really get one of those early drafts of the SPN Pilot out of my head that really had Dean as just the negative figure to Sam`s awesomeness. And Sam was right on every issue, even contradicting ones. That thing was bad and obviously someone talked Kripke out of the extreme Gary Stu-dom but it was his initial vision of the characters. And I can`t remember if it was that one or another draft where John and Mary just "joked" about throwing toddler Dean out of his room and put him up in the attic to make room for baby Sam.

I've never read that, and I thought I was fairly up to speed on the information that's been put out over the years.  May I ask the source?  I'd like to go back and read it.

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