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Iris West

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12 hours ago, Trini said:

 Otherwise, I agree with you that Iris' plots have been a letdown in this first half. Although, I was only really disappointed with 4 out of the 8.

Agreed. Although, it was 3 out of 8 for me. It was the episodes that she had the least amount of screentime (4,5,6). I just wish Wallace didn't lie about her journalism "being on fire". I guess his definition meant "hey you actually see Iris doing a little bit of reporting/investigating or alluding to it in more episodes than previous season". If he had said that, probably wouldn't be disappointed with what we got. Because it's sort of true.

6x01- we got Iris investigating the black hole and discovering Chester.

6x02- we got Iris helping investigate the Allegra case

6x03- we got the small Allegra plot and investigating about the new Wells

6x04- we got alluding to Iris investigating the sue case for Ralph

6x06-apparently she was off investigating

6x07-her first true journalism plot this season. She investigated that mysterious corporation with Team Citizen

Only 2 episodes out of 7 with a good chunk of journalism is not "on fire". All Wallice had to do was come out and say what I said. There wouldn't be any disappointment.

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12 hours ago, adora721 said:

My only concern about a Black female writer is that some, not all, Black women are not happy when Black women date or marry White men. Some see it as a betrayal of the Black men - being disloyal. I just hope they get someone who puts any personal bias aside or who supports IR couples no matter the makeup of that couple.

I want a black female writer. However, would it really change things? She would still have to report to the showrunner and get her script revised. Sure, she could point out the tropes with Iris, but she's not in control.

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DP apparently got reshoots (and was bragging about it) to push her storyline and PoV with Frost vs Caitlin and that's why we got double those scenes.

Meanwhile they cut Iris' scene with Joe.

Fuck Eric Wallace.

That scene where The Flash saved Caitlin from the black hole but Iris had to save herself really bothered me too.

That was the first time my antennae went up that something was really wrong with the direction the show was going in.

Has anyone ever been in a relationship where your other half does everything on paper to be in the relationship but keeps letting you down emotionally?  This is what it feels like with this show right now.  They keep telling me that WestAllen is it but they keep focusing on anything and everything but WestAllen... like they aren't filling the love tank.  At all.  If WA were real, it would starve to death.

I feel like I'm in an unhealthy relationship with this show - where it refuses to give what I deserve but keeps pretending like it has.

ETA:  About CP - she's been playing fantasy football all fall so I don't think she's paying attention to what airs.  And I don't think she's acting "happy" and excited per se - frankly it feels like she's just decided not to let it bother her.

I'm just angry that she's the female lead but the show never treats her that way in the writing.  The closest we got was S1A and S3.

Edited by phoenics
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13 minutes ago, phoenics said:

DP apparently got reshoots (and was bragging about it) to push her storyline and PoV with Frost vs Caitlin and that's why we got double those scenes.

? Reshoots are not 'prize' or 'bonus' 'given' to actors like you seem to be framing it. (Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.) It's a production decision. We don't know why. Maybe weather was bad that day, so they had to do scenes over.

19 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Meanwhile they cut Iris' scene with Joe.

See, here's a showrunner/story decision. We haven't had a meaty Iris/Joe scene in a while. We should have seen this.

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 1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

She wasn't a moron. Barry is her husband and long time best friend. Unlike Cisco, Iris didn't IMMEDIATELY give up on Barry just because he was under Ramsey's influence. Iris wanted to give it a chance that maybe talking to him would get through to Barry. Barry's been under the influence before by Grodd. She got through to him then, so she thought she could get through to him with Ramsey. That wasn't Iris being a moron, that was her being hopeful.

There's being hopeful and there's being a moron. Iris knew Barry had been taken over by Ramsey and she walked right into what could only have been more obviously a trap if Barry had started screaming "ACKBAR! ACKBAR!" into the radio and very nearly got killed as a result. The idea that it could be a trap doesn't even enter her head until Cisco outright says it and then she does it anyway. It doesn't matter if Iris has talked Barry down from similar instances before, and if it did in those instances she didn't have any other choices.

It's still an incredibly stupid thing to do that could've gotten her killed and very nearly did when she clearly had other options in front of her at the time. Attempting to talk Barry down when he was in Star Labs with Iris having nowhere to run with his hand literally at her throat is one thing, deliberately walking right into a situation that made the same thing happening all but inevitable is quite another.

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When did you start watching this show? What show have you been watching? Iris has no skills? Iris is the daughter of a cop. It has been shown and told to us that Joe trained Iris in self defense and boxing. He trained her how to use a gun. We've seen Iris use her skills plenty of times. So you saying she has no combat skills is wrong.

Yeah, something she displays once a season, if that. Forgive me if I happened to dismiss her so called "combat skills" after looking over the dozens of times Iris has been in peril and not even put up a token defense, even when it's against a bog standard human or close enough to it that she should be able to fight back against. Most of the time she doesn't even carry around or have nearby one of those sci-fi tech rifles that Joe and other nonpowered people are sometimes seen using when coming against a meta. So yeah, combat skills? Could've fooled me.

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And what combat skills do the others have? The ones the writers forced them to have out of nowhere? With Iris, we've actually seen her develop these skills. With powers, they still got knocked out. Seriously, Killer Frost became a joke. You don't need to be a genius to be valuable to the team.

First, I didn't say the others have combat skills, though most of them at least have something, it's that Iris doesn't and she doesn't have anything else to contribute in place of that while everybody else does. Cisco, Ralph, and Caitlin have or had superpowers and even without them are all perfectly capable of contributing. Cisco is the "smart guy" who invents all the tech and usually (his occasional blunders with things like the photon gun this episode aside aside) can use it effectively. Caitlin has her medical knowledge and years of experience with the health of metahumans. Even Ralph has years of experience as a private investigator and quite a number of shady contacts he can use to help out. While Joe both has combat skills and the legal authority to make arrests and bring reinforcements against the foes Team Flash comes up against.

What does Iris have? Nothing. The vast majority of the time she's completely helpless against any given threat and has made no effort throughout the run of the show to remedy that. She has nothing to provide to help Team Flash succeed, not even things the other members of the group could do just as well or even better to be able to serve as a backup. Again, all she can do is prop her hubby up with the 10,000th speech about how he's a great person and he will always win. Barry's mental well being is the most she can contribute because she doesn't have anything of actual substance to do so. If the writers wanted Iris in that kind of role then they should've given her a psychiatry degree and had her be the team therapist, at least then it would be an actual role in the team.

Also generally I LIKE Iris as a character. However, the writers have put Iris into this box of uselessness that they refuse to take her out of. I'm not hating Iris for this, I'm just extremely disappointed by the utter refusal to allow Iris to grow as a character to help the problem of the week as anything other than a motivation, if that much. Even the brief glimpses of storylines outside of being Barry's girlfriend/wife that they've given her tend to either be motivated by Barry on some level or avoided until Barry gives Iris her own pep talk. Like how she was refusing to launch the Citizen in the hopes that not doing so would somehow prevent Barry's disappearance until Barry talked her into doing it. Now any Citizen storylines are going to be tainted by that even if Barry never gets involved with any of it again. She doesn't think or do much of anything outside of Barry just for her own sake, and she has nothing to provide for the storyline outside of propping up Barry either. It's really the only thing wrong with her character.

In short, my problem with this criticism is that people here are acting like what they're doing with Iris now hasn't been the Status Quo from day 1 when the reality is it has been like this for the entire run of the show.

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6 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

What does Iris have? Nothing. The vast majority of the time she's completely helpless against any given threat and has made no effort throughout the run of the show to remedy that. She has nothing to provide to help Team Flash succeed, not even things the other members of the group could do just as well or even better to be able to serve as a backup. Again, all she can do is prop her hubby up with the 10,000th speech about how he's a great person and he will always win. Barry's mental well being is the most she can contribute because she doesn't have anything of actual substance to do so. If the writers wanted Iris in that kind of role then they should've given her a psychiatry degree and had her be the team therapist, at least then it would be an actual role in the team.

You're clearly not impressed by Iris, and I'm not going to try to change your mind; but this is just simply untrue.

I find it hilarious though that I see complaints that she's doing too much AND that's she's not doing enough; that she's 'disappeared' AND she's taken over the show; she's a 'damsel' AND she's always saving herself; she only gives Barry pep talks AND she and Barry never have scenes.

This is why we can't have nice things; people complain either way! 😆

Edited by Trini
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11 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Yeah, something she displays once a season, if that. Forgive me if I happened to dismiss her so called "combat skills" after looking over the dozens of times Iris has been in peril and not even put up a token defense, even when it's against a bog standard human or close enough to it that she should be able to fight back against. Most of the time she doesn't even carry around or have nearby one of those sci-fi tech rifles that Joe and other nonpowered people are sometimes seen using when coming against a meta. So yeah, combat skills? Could've fooled me.

I know I haven't complained about Iris being shown to save Barry more than he her despite the fact that she's a human and he's a meta only for you to say this. You don't have to like Iris or the way she's being used but this is just patently false.

Iris has been shown to be effective against Girder, the Clock King, Peek-a-Boo, Doctor Light, whammied Wally, Savitar, Earth-X Nazis, Dwarfstar, Marlize DeVoe, whammied Nora, Cicada, Ragdoll and there's probably more that I am forgetting. She jumped off a building to save Barry and always has either a gun, a rifle, or a taser with her. She never goes out in the field unprepared. She's been hurt and needed saving a couple times but she's definitely been more effective than ineffective against both metas and bog standard humans.

Iris has saved herself and someone else from a black hole while Caitlin and her powerful alter ego needed Barry to come to their rescue. Iris shot Savitar in the back while Vibe and Frost just stood there like distracted idiots.

I am going to say only this about Iris' place on the team. I couldn't care less about the Team Flash show and Iris needing to work with/for them to be deemed worthy and useful. The team focus has hurt the show and there should be less of it. All I want from Iris is a reporter storyline that ties back to the big bad of the season and team-ups with Barry. I won't care one bit if she won't help the overused team ever again. And being Barry's motivation is actually important and one of the few things that stops this show from becoming a boring live action videogame.

As for Iris having nothing outside of Barry, Cisco and Caitlin work for him. They are genius scientists who could have a great career but they are not interested in any of that because they live and breathe for Team Flash. Flashpoint Cisco and Caitlin would never. At least Iris has a real job.

12 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

In short, my problem with this criticism is that people here are acting like what they're doing with Iris now hasn't been the Status Quo from day 1 when the reality is it has been like this for the entire run of the show.

It hasn't. I mean, there have always been problems with the writing for Iris but this isn't par for the course. She got no credit for being Barry's motivation. All the praise went to her intern and the woman who helped a supervillain try to kill her. In the past Barry always verbalized that Iris is what kept him from losing control. When even Savitar can act ashamed that he tried to murder Iris but Barry won't apologize for what Ramsey made him do there's something very wrong going on.

I didn't like season 5 but last year Iris was supported and comforted throughout her issues with Nora. When Iris was fated to die she was treated like Barry's priority. All Barry cares about now is teaching a team of metas how to survive without the Flash. Since they learned about Crisis the most he has done for Iris is take her to an off screen vacation.

Iris was given room to break down and be vulnerable and angry when she learned she would die in months/when she lost Barry to the Speed Force. Now she has been made to accept Barry's fate as inevitable but has also been bashed for not spending enough time with him or doing nothing to save him. The only person who tried to have her open up was the intern who has acted entitled to all her secret and had just found out her husband was going to vanish in two days. 2A was the pits but even back then Barry offered Iris to talk about her mom coming back and supported her when she didn't know how to tell Joe about Wally.

In season 6 the writers took all the things that have hurt Iris as a character and doubled down on them while erasing or downplaying the good stuff.

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On 12/8/2019 at 7:21 PM, immortalfrieza said:

In short, my problem with this criticism is that people here are acting like what they're doing with Iris now hasn't been the Status Quo from day 1 when the reality is it has been like this for the entire run of the show.

Even though I disagree with your characterization of Iris and your judgement of her to be such a horrible character, most of us HAVE been fighting back against the sexist and racist tropes that the writers love draping onto Iris. We've been fighting back since S1.

What makes things so hard right now is that it felt like the show was finally getting it in S3 for parts and even partly in S4... but there were of course still issues with the writing treating Iris in a misogynistic and racist way.

I don't agree that Iris has been damseled.  She definitely hasn't been damseled more than Caitlin, Joe, or even Cisco.  And of the times she got damseled, she was an instrument of her own rescue.  Even the black hole situation that required a KF-powered CS to be rescued by Barry, Iris managed to save her own damn self from a black hole. She also saved Caitlin from Blink (or whoever her name is), saved Linda from Dr. Light, saved Barry/TF from Girder, just shot up Bloodwork, fought Marlize and kicked her out of her lab, etc..

Iris on the whole hasn't been the damseled character.  I can't think of any instance where she's been damseled and utterly helpless.  Patty actually was more helpless when she was taken by Turtle, and she's a cop.

I just don't find your assertion to be accurate, based on what I've seen air.

But I do concede that the writers have been unfair in how they've written Iris at times - which is what most of us have been railing against since S1.  So I'm not quite sure why you're claiming none of us seem to realize that?  That's kinda our point anyway and why we're so frustrated now.

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Welp.  It's now canon that Iris was an SBW all the way leading up to Crisis and not one member of TF ever asked her how she was.  EVER.  TF is trash.

The only reason Joe isn't is because he likely asks after her in their deleted scene.

But it's BEYOND frustrating that a black showrunner delivered this racist trope for Iris and carried it through with no one ever thinking how weird it was that Iris seemed so resigned to Barry dying.  And worse, he allowed TF people to bash her for it.  And the villain bashed her for it.

And we never got Iris' pov except for one throwaway line in the Crisis episode.

Something has shifted in the writing of this show and it's BAD for Iris.  Very bad.

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9 hours ago, phoenics said:

Welp.  It's now canon that Iris was an SBW all the way leading up to Crisis and not one member of TF ever asked her how she was.  EVER.  TF is trash.

I hate that Ralph and Ramsey bashed her but has Team Flash ever cared about what Iris was going through? I don't remember one instance of Team Flash comforting Iris over anything. I think they are consistent in their insensitivity.

There was only that one moment with Cisco putting a comforting hand on her shoulder when they thought Barry wasn't coming back from the black hole in the season premiere. I can't think of anything else.

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1 hour ago, Starry said:

I hate that Ralph and Ramsey bashed her but has Team Flash ever cared about what Iris was going through? I don't remember one instance of Team Flash comforting Iris over anything. I think they are consistent in their insensitivity.

There was only that one moment with Cisco putting a comforting hand on her shoulder when they thought Barry wasn't coming back from the black hole in the season premiere. I can't think of anything else.

I can't either, tbh.

The only time that comes close is the season premiere this season where people seemed confused at how she was acting, but it feels like that was more Joe and Cecile, not anyone from TF.

I think what has bothered me the most about this now that Crisis has aired is that Iris went from being a SBW in the lead up to Crisis on The Flash, with no Point of View as to how she felt about Barry dying and Nora not being conceived.  We got no PoV as to how Iris felt about losing her entire family she was to have with Barry.  Nothing.

And instead of people wondering how and why Iris was behaving the way she was, Iris was bashed for it.  Still no PoV.

Then as Barry is about to set off to "die", Iris begs to go with him and says she doesn't want "to live this life" without him.

So - are we to believe that the reason Iris was acting like a SBW this whole time was because she didn't plan on living without him?  She was gonna go die with him?

The writers have - as you said - taken "all the things that have hurt Iris as a character and doubled down on them while erasing or downplaying the good stuff"

The assertions that "all Iris has is Barry" (which were never true before because Iris always had her family and her career, in addition to Barry, unlike some characters who solely exist to prop Flash up)... welp... that argument just got a boost even though before this Iris never acted this way.  She even called Barry out for how easily he just poofed away in S3.  Maybe Eric Wallace thinks her being so "supportive" of him dying "fixes" that and shows Iris is "down or ride or die" - but that just gives credence to the argument that Iris was wrong or bad for expressing her hurt that Barry seemed to leave so easily at the end of S3.

She wasn't wrong!  Barry did seem to just leave really easily - he almost looked happy about it.  S4 was right to call that out.

I just don't get this writing and who it's supposed to please, other than people who hate Iris.

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5 hours ago, Starry said:

I can't think of anything else.

In S4, Caitlin put her hand on top of Iris' hand in the courtroom. And that's the most comfort Cait's ever given Iris. It was a blink and you miss it moment at a time when the writers were actively trying to make fetch, the SnoWest friendship, happen.  A friend of mine calls TF, "Team Trash" and rightly so.

I wonder if anyone is bashing Iris for being happy her husband didn't die in crisis; I'm sure some think that means Iris is happy that E90 Flash died. The misogynoir is strong in the fandom.

I do like the writers stating that humans are as important as the superheroes. After all, without humans that need help, who would the heroes save? It's also great that Kara said you don't need powers to be a hero, and Barry essentially reiterated the same thing. That's long been an issue for me with many in the fandom calling non-meta or ordinary people "useless".  The ordinary people are the fandom; the ordinary people are you and me. Why would you call yourself useless?! Never made sense, but then again bias doesn't make sense.

Edited by adora721
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Hashtag campaign for the anniversary of Candice getting cast as Iris:

 

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The second part of the season is starting off good in general, and for Iris in particular. I don't believe Wallace's exaggerations, but I hope that he can follow through with making this McCulloch investigation a good multi-episode arc for Iris, and he grows her relationships (family, friends work).

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On a completely different note: I can see why they let Candice have her hair naturally curly for that one episode. She was probably only on set for that one day. I appreciated it, but I feel we're not going to see her hair like that again soon. If we do, it might be a Candice-lite episode?

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Really like that Candice is getting to play two versions of Iris! We'll see if we get the evil version that's been on my wishlist. Although, I suspect we'll see mostly the 'real Iris' for most of the rest of the season since she's a main character.

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Also Candice cut her hair recently, so I wonder if that will show up on the show later as a plot point. (They are still filming the season.)

 

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I really need this to be a split personality - Evil Iris/Good Iris thing because a body invasion will just be wrong. It would also make sense because Evil Iris is acting exactly like Iris but with an edge, more driven, more ruthless, less soft. But her passion for journalism isn’t a new thing, and her solution to fix the Amulet/Gold problem was very Iris-ey, get them to see their feelings for each other. So far we haven’t seen her do anything that Iris won’t do. Even the pancakes had a rational explanation.

So here’s hoping that this is a split personality thing and not something more yucky.

 

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Yuck factor aside, if Mirror Iris isn't Iris I am afraid the writers will pretend that what she said to Barry during their argument isn't valid as it was someone else or a clone talking and not his actual wife.

This arc fascinates but also scares me because of what could happen to Barry and Iris and their character development when it's all said and done.

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I hope Siri is actually a part of Iris as well. I obviously disliked the gaslighting but I liked a lot about the confident, take charge part of her with things like the Amunet plot, reckless and semi violent though it was. And the discussion of the issues that have sometimes surrounded her character and their relationship were valid. They could take the opportunity to incorporate that into real Iris more. If it's just "evil Iris" it's an excuse to sweep it under the rug as a gimmick or something they've checked off the list and go back to the usual way of doing things after the discussions of betrayal and violation are dealt with. It's hard to tell which way they'll go.

I don't think anything long term bad is going to happen to them as a couple but if they actually explore the ramifications of Siri either as total imposter or part of Iris then things should be uncomfortable, even just within the episode - fallout for them generally hasn't gone beyond that length of time so far, so again hard to tell. 

Barry and Joe did point out that she took charge of the McCollough investigation and that was pre Mirror along with Team Citizen being a running subplot so there's hope that that aspect is staying. 

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A bit of info on Mirror Iris' wardrobe:

 

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I'm liking how Candice is subtly playing a different version of Iris, but I'm just waiting for Siri to really start being EVIL; then I can check that off my wish list!

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I had a feeling CP liked Mirror Iris more but I want Real Iris back.

It's good for CP to stretch her acting muscles and have fun with a different character but as a fan who watches the show every week, I don't like how the Eva puppet is eating into Iris' screen time.

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I knew Siri would end up fighting somebody, I was expecting it to be her against Iris, not Barry! But it worked, and was appropriately heart-wrenching!

 

On 3/19/2020 at 12:50 AM, Trini said:

I'm liking how Candice is subtly playing a different version of Iris, but I'm just waiting for Siri to really start being EVIL; then I can check that off my wish list!

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