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S05.E01: #LizaToo

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Liza returns to Empirical hoping to resume business as usual. Charles announces a new project that spurs several unsettling revelations.

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Charles knows Liza's real age now.... will he distrust her or will he feel more comfortable being in a relationship with her now if she is closer to his age?

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7 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Charles knows Liza's real age now.... will he distrust her or will he feel more comfortable being in a relationship with her now if she is closer to his age?

Before that, I believe he will, like Kelsey, feel hurt, betrayed, and more than a bit angry.  Diana is more than likely going to be enraged and embarrassed by being played, with more than a bit of grudging admiration for Liza's ability to pull-off the fraud for four (!) years.  I do believe Charles and Diana both care for Liza in their way, and will get over their respective feelings in three or four episodes. Poor Kelsey is going to have to deal with the "what did you know and when did you know it" interrogation from both of them unless Liza decides to protect her, and I believe she will at least try to. 

Edited by Winston Wolfe
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Even though the previews make it look like Charles is confronting Liza next week, I’m worried that he won’t. Instead we’ll get a season of Charles knowing but not telling Liza he knows. I really enjoy the show, but the Liza reveal has been dragging on a bit too long. I get that the show is titled Younger, so revealing all sort of negates that, but it’s not that interesting anymore watching her scramble. 

The show has a real history of one tiny step forward followed by three giant steps back, over and over again.

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*sigh*

So my lovely little escapist fare, which started to bore me last season, is back with a "Ripped from the headlines!" sl.

No longer escapist.  No longer the reason I loved it.  I don't even care if that's UO.  

Maybe the Jennifer gang from Dietland will show up in a Very Special Episode & off that pig.  Hey, they've already visited that arena with Death by Falling Beam.

Here's what I liked: Liza 'fessing up to Charles about her feelings.  Niiiiiicely done.

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11 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

I get that the show is titled Younger, so revealing all sort of negates that

I think at this point, after five seasons, the title doesn't matter.

It was a nice twist to have Edward L.L. Moore be the one to blow Liza's lie to Charles.

Edited by dubbel zout · Reason: corrected name
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Well, thanks, show for catapulting us starry-eyed Charles shippers back to reality in one episode.  Geesh, can they throw us a few episodes of romance without throwing ice water on it FOR ONCE?

Then again, if Charles holds this secret, it actually may make him view Liza in a new light from a distance and romance may build again.  I just hope the show doesn't frustrate the audience like "The Middle" did with Sean and Sue, where in the end a lot of the audience was so over them they didn't care whether or not they ever got together.  Too many awkward near-misses, furtive glances, miscommunications, etc.  If it goes on too long it will lose its affect.

It looks like the show had a "life imitates art" moment with the parallels to the "me too" movement.  And it actually took advantage of it quite well.

Best line belonged to Kelsey:  "I can see the outline of your wiener in those pants".  Touché.

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What grown woman--living and working in Manhattan, no less--calls a penis a "weiner"? I groused at the TV after that line. Actors can say "dick" on cable now.

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1 minute ago, bilgistic said:

What grown woman--living and working in Manhattan, no less--calls a penis a "weiner"? I groused at the TV after that line. Actors can say "dick" on cable now.

I agree. Also speaking of Dietland, I think they used the P word in it.

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1 hour ago, bichonblitz said:

I thoroughly enjoyed not seeing Josh. 

I missed him, and Maggie. 

Didn't Charles tell Kelsey last season that Marriage Vacation was going to be an Empirical release?

It's about time for everyone else to find out about Liza, if for no other reason than it's getting harder for Sutton Foster to believably pull off 27.

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Oh Liza. Even if you weren’t really going to the bathroom, don’t exit before the toilet is finished flushing. Now Charles and Diana think you don’t wash your hands. 

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OMG Charles finally knows! And typical that someone as gross and inappropriate as LL Moore decides to attack his accusers.

I hated the cover of Marriage Vacation. I can't believe that Kelsey approved that cheesy dated artwork.

I know I shouldn't have laughed, but when Diana asked Liza if there was anything she wanted to tell them about LL Moore even though it would destroy the company, her tone totally cracked me up. But I did appreciate that when Liza left the sexual harassment training, she talked about how she was treated in the earlier days of her career. Even though she didn't get too specific, I liked that she was trying to let Liza know that she could relate to her situation and that she understood that it sucks (especially because earlier when she was given the opportunity to tell Charles and Diana what a lecherous creep LL Moore is, she pasted on a smile and said that he was just a flirtatious old man even though he had clearly made her uncomfortable in the past).

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

It's about time for everyone else to find out about Liza, if for no other reason than it's getting harder for Sutton Foster to believably pull off 27.

Oddly enough, I thought Sutton looked lovelier and more youthful last night than she has for a while.  But the charade was going to have to end eventually.

Edited by Winston Wolfe
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I was okay with Kelsey saying weiner because to me it felt like she deliberately chose an immature word to reflect how lame Zane was being. We know that normally she has no problem using profanity or using the word dick, so this felt like a deliberate choice to me.

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I wanted to like it, but somehow was very bored. Metoo, jokes about Trump they are trying too hard. Hilary Duff can't really act and one can clearly see it now.  For me it feels like the show is getting tired. I think it peaked two seasons ago and nothing exciting will happen again.  

I would watch Miriam Shore at any time though. She's  now the best thing about this show for sure. 

Edited by skotnikov
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I didn't see the metoo storyline as trying too hard because all the seeds for that plot were planted in previous seasons. We knew from his first appearance that LL Moore was a creep and that Liza put up with his inappropriate behavior because she loves her job and the company needed the sales from his books. We've known for a while that Empirical was having financial difficulties so losing LL Moore to Zane's company was a huge blow. Getting him back was supposed to help keep the company afloat. In addition, this show is mainly about the lives and careers of women and unfortunately, creeps like LL Moore are the kind of thing that many women deal with (at work and just in general). This episode just brought all of those existing storylines together.

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3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was okay with Kelsey saying weiner because to me it felt like she deliberately chose an immature word to reflect how lame Zane was being. We know that normally she has no problem using profanity or using the word dick, so this felt like a deliberate choice to me.

I was going to say pretty much this - I felt like she chose that word to belittle him.

31 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I didn't see the metoo storyline as trying too hard because all the seeds for that plot were planted in previous seasons. We knew from his first appearance that LL Moore was a creep and that Liza put up with his inappropriate behavior because she loves her job and the company needed the sales from his books. We've known for a while that Empirical was having financial difficulties so losing LL Moore to Zane's company was a huge blow. Getting him back was supposed to help keep the company afloat. In addition, this show is mainly about the lives and careers of women and unfortunately, creeps like LL Moore are the kind of thing that many women deal with (at work and just in general). This episode just brought all of those existing storylines together.

I agree here too, plus it gave them a way to tie his behavior into a plot that also tied into a real world current events issue.  I found it ingenious even if a little opportunistic.

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Sad that there was no Maggie, Lauren, or Josh. Charles continues to bore me to tears. And I'm sick of Kelsey constantly yelling at her boss, it makes no sense. Who has tantrums like that at work to their superiors so often?

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8 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Didn't Charles tell Kelsey last season that Marriage Vacation was going to be an Empirical release?

I thought he did, too, but maybe he changed it at the last minute without telling her? Regardless, it was a dick move. And unnecessary, because even though Millennium is an imprint, it's a full part of Empirical. Diana runs the marketing for Millennium as well as Empirical. That excuse about Empirical having more juice is ridiculous. Millennium had the giant dog's life book (or whatever it was). I don't think the general public really cares about what imprint publishes what book.

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No Josh? This episode loses on that fact alone.

I missed Maggie too.

The behavior after 4 seasons is just too over the top. Diana still talks down to Liza in public and asks her to fetch salads, then gives her a girl power speech in the bathroom? Not buying at least one half of whatever they're selling.

If I yelled at my boss as often as Kelsey yells at Charles, I'd be unemployed. Has no one in that office ever heard of scheduling a one-on-one meeting? No one has arguments in the middle of coworkers anymore - this isn't Melrose Place (and no one on that show is near Heather Locklear levels of appeal).

Zane is an annoying, overly confident jerk who no one would want to work with. Why is everyone on this show so unlikable?

Charles and the wife.... yawn. I'm so bored by him, and his ex, and whatever "feelings" Liza might have for him. He's shown absolutely zero backbone or decision-making ability. Josh is ready to call off a wedding to be with Liza... Charles is shooting furrowed brows at her during a sexual harassment  seminar. I just can't with the stupidity of this non-romance. If this is the season of Charles and Liza, as Sutton Foster said, then this might be the season I tune out. 

Josh better show up next week or I'm throwing in the towel on this show. It started out so well but we're now in exponential decay territory.

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Before that, I believe he will, like Kelsey, feel hurt, betrayed, and more than a bit angry.  Diana is more than likely going to be enraged and embarrassed by being played, with more than a bit of grudging admiration for Liza's ability to pull-off the fraud for four (!) years. 

Has it actually been four years by the timeline of the show?  It's honestly never clear to me how much time has passed since the pilot.  As for Charles and Diana, I presume there will be legitimate feelings of hurt and betrayal.  However, I think Diana, given she's essentially a peer to Liza, will be more sympathetic to the idea that Liza had to hide her age.  I think Charles will find it difficult to forgive Liza.   

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55 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Has it actually been four years by the timeline of the show?  It's honestly never clear to me how much time has passed since the pilot.  As for Charles and Diana, I presume there will be legitimate feelings of hurt and betrayal.  However, I think Diana, given she's essentially a peer to Liza, will be more sympathetic to the idea that Liza had to hide her age.  I think Charles will find it difficult to forgive Liza.   

It can't be four years - that would make Liza 30 and we know she's only had one birthday since the show began. So apparently its only been about a year and half, maybe close to two years at most.

Charles finding out is a good time for the show to try and actually build some tension, emotion and real feelings (good, bad, or both) between Liza and Charles, because up until now I just haven't been buying what they're selling between them. I'm trying to get right with the idea of Liza and Charles as endgame, but its been quite difficult.

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12 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

It's about time for everyone else to find out about Liza, if for no other reason than it's getting harder for Sutton Foster to believably pull off 27.

 

9 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Oddly enough, I thought Sutton looked lovelier and more youthful last night than she has for a while.  But the charade was going to have to end eventually.

I thought she showed every bit of 40+ in the opening scenes, and remarked to myself that this is getting beyond ridiculous.  But I thought her face looked very fresh when dressed up in the costume.   

I have no idea what was up with the blouse Kelsey was wearing when she confronted Charles.  It looked like you could see through to something green (?) underneath, but not in an intentionally-see-through way.  It was also bulky and didn't do Hilary any favors.

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7 hours ago, skotnikov said:

I wanted to like it, but somehow was very bored. Metoo, jokes about Trump they are trying too hard. Hilary Duff can't really act and one can clearly see it now.  For me it feels like the show is getting tired. I think it peaked two seasons ago and nothing exciting will happen again.  

I would watch Miriam Shore at any time though. She's  now the best thing about this show for sure. 

My partner stopped watching years ago because of Hillary Duff. I still watch, especially for Miriam Shore.

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On 6/6/2018 at 2:21 PM, Gothish520 said:

It can't be four years - that would make Liza 30 and we know she's only had one birthday since the show began. So apparently its only been about a year and half, maybe close to two years at most.

Good point - this show doesn't provide any real sense of the passage of time.  Other shows, like Frazier, frequently provided in-show topical references that let viewers know where the seasons stood in contrast to actual calendar years.  Having said that, most original programming on TV Land tends to run five years.  With last night's Big Reveal, there's a feeling that the show runners are setting the stage for a series finale in 2019.

Edited by Winston Wolfe
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WHY is Liza still Diana’s assistant? Of so many stupid subplots on this show, that’s one of the dumbest. 

Readers don’t care about who publishes what book unless there’s some sort of controversy (see Simon and Schuster’s backlash when they optioned Milo Yiannopoulos’ modern day Mein Kampf). But by contrast one of the hot books at my local library is Meg Wolitzer’s Female Persuasion. I read it, I loved it, I have no clue who published it. 

I don’t know enough about Game of Thrones fandom to know if there’s any accusation/acknowledgment of impropriety on George RR Martin’s part, but as a quick google search doesn’t yield anything, I’m gonna go ahead and say it sucks that this show’s expy of him is an unrepentant perv. Dick move on the part of the showrunners. 

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Having just come to the party I think that it's been about a year in the four seasons (heh) that have aired. 

Mirriam Shor is awesome.  I heard an interview with her and wow, I wish I had her speaking voice.

I missed Josh, however annoying he was in Ireland, and I hope Peter won't tell her, and will keep his knowledge of Liza's age secret from everyone.  This way there can still be some wacky hijinks.  I love the actor who plays Zane, but I''m not feeling the relationship between his character and Kelso.  

A fun episode, and I'm glad they covered the MeToo movement, but I hope they can go back to some more of the loopiness that I liked so much in the earlier seasons.  Cue Lauren?

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you know what? I cant believe im actually typing this, but I want to see where they are gonna take this fall out. The tension (which Jane The Virgin taught me about haha) has been amped up and I'm so nervous to see the next scene with Charles and Liza because he knows!! and she doesn't know he knows!! If he's the smart guy they've been trying to paint him as he'll play the long game, but I don't know what that means for this show at all. I'm angry Liza hasn't just TOLD HIM but I understand why and it was a good twist. They did totally get me there. I want to know how Charles is going to play this and I sincerely hope it isn't dumb. I didn't really expect this type of writing from this show tbh and I think im in the minority, but I still enjoy this show and I'm interested. 

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I have no idea what was up with the blouse Kelsey was wearing when she confronted Charles.  It looked like you could see through to something green (?) underneath, but not in an intentionally-see-through way.  It was also bulky and didn't do Hilary any favors.

The outfits they pick for she and Liza are just awful. 

I do wish we got more Diana.  I loved her story about daring boorish men to show her their junk, and how she ended up seeing six or seven dicks when her bluff got called.

As for Charles, it's easy to see why Emperical always seems on the brink of shutting down.  I fully support not continuing to give a sleazebag author a forum, even if his books keep the publisher's lights on, but going off half cocked, with no real plan and creating a public spectacle in the middle of a presentation just makes you look unprofessional. 

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There's no way Amazon would stop selling his books because of allegations of lewd remarks. There weren't any allegations of physical assault--other than the one ass grab--or rape or anything with anyone underage. I could see Empirical not publishing future books, but they'd still get sales from previous ones.

Edited by springbarb
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11 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Charles and the wife.... yawn. I'm so bored by him, and his ex, and whatever "feelings" Liza might have for him. He's shown absolutely zero backbone or decision-making ability. Josh is ready to call off a wedding to be with Liza... Charles is shooting furrowed brows at her during a sexual harassment  seminar. I just can't with the stupidity of this non-romance. If this is the season of Charles and Liza, as Sutton Foster said, then this might be the season I tune out. 

I'm into the idea of Charles and Liza, but I still agree with you because the way they're depicting him giving into the ex all the time doesn't add up or make sense, unless he's only humoring her because of the book.  And Liza falling on her sword over whatever position his ex is trying to occupy with him is just ridiculous and not very well written, in my opinion.  Charles has already made it more than abundantly clear that he has no interest in his ex and nothing the show has done is making it seem like there's any real threat of the ex winning him over, despite all her desperate attempts to do so and his allowing her to persist in whatever fantasy she has of doing so.  Ugh.

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Normally when a sitcom or soap opera drags out that cliche where Person #1 asks a question and Person #2 thinks it refers to something else and blurts out something very personal or inappropriate, I roll my eyes but when it happened in this episode and Liza admitted her feelings to Charles, I was totally okay with it. I think it needed to be said so I'm just glad that she was finally honest with him about that.

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I get that there is a thru-line for the faux-George Martin sl, but for what this series is supposed to be, it's too heavy a plot point.  If Darren means to embrace it, there's darkness involved -- PTSD, and possible death threats for the women involved (the man has a rabid fanbase).  If he doesn't, it's a cheap way to advance the plot & give only lip service to a story (sexual harassment) that deserves better.

And I don't like it in my midlife-crisis fairy tale.

As far as Sutton, and the masquerade believability...well, if this had been a network series with an average episode number, it would have been easier to pull off.  Two, maybe 2.5 seasons of fooling everybody, is two years' real time; no problem.  But now the run, with its limited number of episodes, has stretched out over *too much* real time.  

Bill Lawrence had to come up with a different premise for CougarTown, as soon as it was clear that Courtney Cox dating 20-somethings wasn't enough of a story.  This is not exactly the same, but I think the reveal should've been last year, and then let the series continue as the workplace/ relationship comedy that was always second to Liza's Big Secret.

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I had most of season 6 to tie me over, but her character's story was too sad - so yeah! finally my weekly dose of funny Miriam Shor is back. Her character is great and she looks stunning in this show.

Charles, based on the papers Moore gave him, will probably notice right away that Liza is not divorced yet ... where can I place my bet that as soon as that is cleared up and after a loud confontation they will get go straight to sexy time? But how will they ever get themselves out of the mess that is Charles' annoying ex wife and her bff crush on Liza?

I want Maggie and Diana to finally meet. Its long overdue and it will be HILARIOUS.

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16 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

I have no idea what was up with the blouse Kelsey was wearing when she confronted Charles.  It looked like you could see through to something green (?) underneath, but not in an intentionally-see-through way.  It was also bulky and didn't do Hilary any favors.

This one?  Yeah, it looks like a very poor choice of bra under a somewhat-pretty shirt, otherwise (not my style, but not the worst we've seen Kelsey wear). 

 

image.png.9efbc50c5ae4e410bf2dff392bc7a0b2.png

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10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Normally when a sitcom or soap opera drags out that cliche where Person #1 asks a question and Person #2 thinks it refers to something else and blurts out something very personal or inappropriate, I roll my eyes but when it happened in this episode and Liza admitted her feelings to Charles, I was totally okay with it. I think it needed to be said so I'm just glad that she was finally honest with him about that.

It's too bad that I just don't get why she feels that way. There is a lot that this show just wants us to take for granted. Stolen glances at each other and brief shots of Charles and his furrowed brow or Liza and her longing looks are not enough to convince me that these two are in love. Why hasn't there been any scenes of Liza telling Maggie her feelings? Or has there been and they were so short that I just don't remember? She poured her heart out to Jay more than she has to anyone else on the show. How about a scene of Charles talking to someone about his feelings? He has no close male (or female) friends or family he can talk to? How about a few scenes of them bantering or flirting before we dove right in to them making out furtively in offices?

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1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

 How about a few scenes of them bantering or flirting before we dove right in to them making out furtively in offices?

So the most absolutely disappointing part for me, is that each of the (3?) times that we have seen Charles and Liza kiss/make out, it has not been hot...at all.  They have a lot of chemistry when they aren't doing anything physical, but for whatever reason, they don't kiss well.  I remember telling my husband after seeing the making out in the office, that it looked they were acting like they were making out,..lots of moving arms and hands, but no actual chemistry.  I remember also being so disappointed in that kiss in the clothing store where Liza was working for awhile.  I have never seen either actor kiss any other actors, so I can't say whose "fault" it is, but their kisses just don't quite hit it.

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1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

So the most absolutely disappointing part for me, is that each of the (3?) times that we have seen Charles and Liza kiss/make out, it has not been hot...at all.  They have a lot of chemistry when they aren't doing anything physical, but for whatever reason, they don't kiss well.  I remember telling my husband after seeing the making out in the office, that it looked they were acting like they were making out,..lots of moving arms and hands, but no actual chemistry.  I remember also being so disappointed in that kiss in the clothing store where Liza was working for awhile.  I have never seen either actor kiss any other actors, so I can't say whose "fault" it is, but their kisses just don't quite hit it.

Agree 100%. I have not seen any tenderness or romance between them at all.

Now, Liza and Josh, that's a different story. I think they have great chemistry, but perhaps that is more Nico Tortorella's doing. I realize he is not everyone's cup of tea, and truth be told, he's not really my type either, but I think he exudes an easy charm and sexiness that comes through on screen.

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3 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

So the most absolutely disappointing part for me, is that each of the (3?) times that we have seen Charles and Liza kiss/make out, it has not been hot...at all.  They have a lot of chemistry when they aren't doing anything physical, but for whatever reason, they don't kiss well.  I remember telling my husband after seeing the making out in the office, that it looked they were acting like they were making out,..lots of moving arms and hands, but no actual chemistry.  I remember also being so disappointed in that kiss in the clothing store where Liza was working for awhile.  I have never seen either actor kiss any other actors, so I can't say whose "fault" it is, but their kisses just don't quite hit it.

The kiss outside the hotel room door in the Hamptons was hot. So was the one at the Berlin concert before that. Come to think of it, the dream sex scene was pretty steamy. 

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On 6/6/2018 at 5:10 PM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

WHY is Liza still Diana’s assistant? Of so many stupid subplots on this show, that’s one of the dumbest. 

Readers don’t care about who publishes what book unless there’s some sort of controversy (see Simon and Schuster’s backlash when they optioned Milo Yiannopoulos’ modern day Mein Kampf). But by contrast one of the hot books at my local library is Meg Wolitzer’s Female Persuasion. I read it, I loved it, I have no clue who published it. 

I don’t know enough about Game of Thrones fandom to know if there’s any accusation/acknowledgment of impropriety on George RR Martin’s part, but as a quick google search doesn’t yield anything, I’m gonna go ahead and say it sucks that this show’s expy of him is an unrepentant perv. Dick move on the part of the showrunners. 

I thought she was still Diana's assistant because she has a dual role. I don't know how it works with imprints, but it made sense to me. But then, I'm no expert in the publishing field. I've just seen other small companies do things like that. 

I also wondered about the game of thrones author when the show first introduced the author character. I don't know anything about him and I wonder how much of that character is true for the author. 

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10 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I thought she was still Diana's assistant because she has a dual role.

Diana grudgingly lets Liza work at Millennium as long as Liza doesn't slack her assistant duties. It's silly, because Liza's assistant job is full-time, but it's a plot point. Also, marketing and editing are different skill sets, but again, plot point.

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8 hours ago, traveladdie said:

The kiss outside the hotel room door in the Hamptons was hot. So was the one at the Berlin concert before that. Come to think of it, the dream sex scene was pretty steamy. 

Co-sign.

Speaking of Charles...a reminder that long before this, Peter showed up in another Darren Star series.  He's the Jewish 10 (tm Judith Krantz) David, who gets turned down by Charlotte right before Harry proposes.

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7 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I also wondered about the game of thrones author when the show first introduced the author character. I don't know anything about him and I wonder how much of that character is true for the author. 

None of it, as far as I know. I DO know GRRM, and he's happily married to the woman he's been living with for decades. I've never heard anyone accuse him of any inappropriate behavior. (I have heard feminist criticism of his work, but that's an altogether different kettle of fish.)

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On 6/6/2018 at 8:24 AM, dubbel zout said:

I thought he did, too, but maybe he changed it at the last minute without telling her? Regardless, it was a dick move. And unnecessary, because even though Millennium is an imprint, it's a full part of Empirical. Diana runs the marketing for Millennium as well as Empirical. That excuse about Empirical having more juice is ridiculous. Millennium had the giant dog's life book (or whatever it was). I don't think the general public really cares about what imprint publishes what book.

I agree with all this but especially that most people don't care who publishes a book. People choose their books based on the title, the cover art, the author, etc. but very few people give a shit who published it. I would guess that if you asked people to name their five favorite books from the last decade and then asked them who published each book, most people wouldn't know.

I can understand why Kelsey feels the book should be under Millennial's imprint since Liza is the one who sat through a million terrible book pitches to find it and then she edited it. I have no idea why Charles or anyone at the company thought that publishing the book under Empirical would somehow give it more publicity due to the new LL Moore book though. It's one thing for a movie ad to say, "From the creator of <insert famous movie title here>" because that will get some people to see the movie. But I would never buy a book just because it was from the same publisher as another book.

This could all be easily solved by saying Marriage Vacation is being published by Millennial, an imprint of Empirical. You know, for the two people (Kelsey and Charles) who care about this.

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If I recall correctly - they never decided that it would be an Empirical book. They just told Kelsey that they were considering it and wanted to give her the heads up. I think the bigger miss is not officially telling them and letting them find out by seeing the book in print. That is not a good way to run a business - granted with all of their money issues it doesn't seem like they know how to anyway. and of course it helps create DRAH-MAH!!! While I don't think it affects the people who buy the book - I wonder if it is more a marketing PR thing that the publisher matters and helps them get the book into articles/reviews/top lists. Granted again - it is already somehow a big hit before it even is finished! 

I would like to see Charles and Liza just happen even if it is only for a few eps and even if it is secret. I want to see him actually loosen up like we saw the slight glimpse of when he was in the Hamptons. They used to show so many more great scenes with them where they talked about childhood books and random things that helped indicate that there might be more there. Now all it is is looks and declarations but no chemistry. So I kinda just want them to hook up and get it out of their systems!!!

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4 hours ago, slaterain said:

If I recall correctly - they never decided that it would be an Empirical book. They just told Kelsey that they were considering it and wanted to give her the heads up. I think the bigger miss is not officially telling them and letting them find out by seeing the book in print.

But if Kelsey edited the book and shepherded it through the production process, she would/should have seen proofs with the Empirical logo on it. Before the books were printed. But again, plot point.

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14 hours ago, plurie said:

None of it, as far as I know. I DO know GRRM, and he's happily married to the woman he's been living with for decades. I've never heard anyone accuse him of any inappropriate behavior. (I have heard feminist criticism of his work, but that's an altogether different kettle of fish.)

Wow, I can't imagine he's OK with this character. 

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On 6/5/2018 at 11:36 PM, Gothish520 said:

I missed him, and Maggie. 

Didn't Charles tell Kelsey last season that Marriage Vacation was going to be an Empirical release?

It's about time for everyone else to find out about Liza, if for no other reason than it's getting harder for Sutton Foster to believably pull off 27.

Shouldn't her fake age be 30/31 by now? 

Edit: Disregard. This was answered in later responses. 

Edited by RealitytvLover
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On 6/6/2018 at 1:03 AM, Yeah No said:

Well, thanks, show for catapulting us starry-eyed Charles shippers back to reality in one episode.  Geesh, can they throw us a few episodes of romance without throwing ice water on it FOR ONCE?

Then again, if Charles holds this secret, it actually may make him view Liza in a new light from a distance and romance may build again.  I just hope the show doesn't frustrate the audience like "The Middle" did with Sean and Sue, where in the end a lot of the audience was so over them they didn't care whether or not they ever got together.  Too many awkward near-misses, furtive glances, miscommunications, etc.  If it goes on too long it will lose its affect.

It looks like the show had a "life imitates art" moment with the parallels to the "me too" movement.  And it actually took advantage of it quite well.

Best line belonged to Kelsey:  "I can see the outline of your wiener in those pants".  Touché.

I really want to believe the writers knew what they were doing by having Zane make a piggish comment about Kelsey's skirt in an episode about #metoo. Unfortunately, I don't think they did. Zane is a creep and they're trying to make him into some sexy anti-hero. Nope. Dude's a poster boy for sexual harassment.

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