S02.E08: Women's Work

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Offred and Serena share a common goal while the Commander recovers from a terrifying ordeal.

Promo:

[AllyB]

Ugh. I have a very icky feeling about what is going to happen in Fred's study. Offred's 'jump' at something made me remember a scene from the S2 trailer that hasn't been shown yet. I really, really hope I'm wrong.

[AnswersWanted]

23 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Ugh. I have a very icky feeling about what is going to happen in Fred's study. Offred's 'jump' at something made me remember a scene from the S2 trailer that hasn't been shown yet. I really, really hope I'm wrong.

 

 I know the scene you're talking about and I do believe it fits into this episode, when he calls June and Serena into the office. 

He is going about his so called "godly husband duty" keeping his household in line and well disciplined. 

It would be such a Fred thing to do really, he is truly a monster and hypocrite. 

I also ponder about how far Nick is willing to go with Eden to keep her in check.

She knows being caught reading is against the rules and certainly snooping isn't permitted either.

I think he is going to have to get a early crash course in parenting to try and keep them both safe from her childish behavior. Her missteps could spell the end for them all. 

[greekmom]

I'm wondering if the fact that Fred won't intervene for baby Angela is another form of punishment for Serena.  He knows how she feels about children. He knows that she is jealous of the Putman's and that she wishes that she had the baby. 

I wouldn't put it past Fred.

[Shangrilala]

6 hours ago, AllyB said:

Ugh. I have a very icky feeling about what is going to happen in Fred's study. Offred's 'jump' at something made me remember a scene from the S2 trailer that hasn't been shown yet. I really, really hope I'm wrong.

I don't think you're wrong.  It fits, the lighting is the same, and...yeah, they're going to do that.  And as much as I can't stand SJ...I also can't stand watching that either.  

Are they trying to make SJ likeable?  Sympathetic?  Highlight her role as a victim of the regime she created?  Are we supposed to forgive her for her sins?  I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with this.  The Commander was 100% impressed with the role she played with the delegation from Mexico.  Her actions last episode were just another example her intelligence and wits.  "Never mistake a woman's meekness for weakness."  

Spoiler

So why punish her this time?  I'm not just thinking Fred, but rather the writers overall.  Is it the fact that she conspired to do so with Offred and Nick?  Because she didn't just use her mind, but pen and paper?  Is it because she did so for the sake of her "family" as opposed to something for the greater "good" of Gilead? 

 

I'm not sure if the above counts as a spoiler, but rather speculation, but I'm hiding it just in case.  

[Souris]

9 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

 I know the scene you're talking about and I do believe it fits into this episode, when he calls June and Serena into the office. 

He is going about his so called "godly husband duty" keeping his household in line and well disciplined. 

It would be such a Fred thing to do really, he is truly a monster and hypocrite.

Not to mention he will be angry about the bombing at the Rachel & Leah Center, which was HIS project, and keen to punish any woman for standing up to him Gilead.

[Umbelina]

This will snap Janeen out of her making wishes, everything is beautiful phase if nothing else does.

[mamadrama]

The Israeli trailer for this episode shows things from this episode that the American one does not show. If you want to be spoiled a little more, it definitely gives no doubt as to what Fred is doing to who in the season 2 trailer...

 

Spoiler

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by mamadrama

[TV Mercenary]

Wow, their trailers look so much better than ours like damn good stuff.

 

Spoiler

At least they didn't have Serena stripped and flogged, but I have no doubt that her pride will be severely wounded and with her temperament ... June may not wish to sympathize too much with her.

 

I am convinced Fred is just a sick minded sadist that has been denied getting his kick offs in the real world before Gilead but now he has a free pass to pleasure himself at will with anyone he wants to. Creep ass sicko.

 

14 hours ago, greekmom said:

I'm wondering if the fact that Fred won't intervene for baby Angela is another form of punishment for Serena.  He knows how she feels about children. He knows that she is jealous of the Putman's and that she wishes that she had the baby. 

I wouldn't put it past Fred.

 

Fred lacks a soul, that is for sure, so I absolutely agree. Everything he does is calculating and selfish, he is rarely thinking about anyone outside of himsel

It does appear as if this episode is all about giving us an insider's view into Fred's controlling mind that we have yet to see, just how domineering and dangerous, or should I say deranged, can he become?

 

12 hours ago, Shangrilala said:

Are they trying to make SJ likeable?  Sympathetic?  Highlight her role as a victim of the regime she created?  Are we supposed to forgive her for her sins?  I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with this. 

 

I feel the exact same, last week definitely concerned me that they might be testing the angle of redeeming her. I really really hope that is not the case just because she can work against the monstrous machine she helped bring to life changes nothing for me.

Edited June 5, 2018 by TV Mercenary

[HolmesUltimateQu]

I'm still not sure what was wrong with baby Angela/Charlotte. Was she experiencing failure to thrive from lack of touching/holding/loving? I can see Momma Putnam not being super maternal. 

[Brn2bwild]

Baby Angela lives!  So she was dying of unhappiness...

Overall, a mixed episode.  Nice to see Serena and June/Offred still working together, but of course it couldn't continue.  Serena seemed really naive, the way she thought Fred would be okay with her ghostwriting his work.  Even in a far more equal world, that's a big faux pas.  

I know Eden is supposed to be secretly evil and all, but I actually feel sorry for her.  She wants so badly to fulfill her role, and everyone is dismissive of her, and it's clear she's unhappy.  She thought she was making Nick happy with redecorating, and probably didn't think anything of the letters until he had his freakout.  Now she'll probably run to the nearest guardian and tell all.

Spoiler

The promo for Episode 9 looks soooo good.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Brn2bwild

[rideashire]

I think Serena has been under at least a partial illusion that she’s exempt from some of the ridiculous rules this new government has imposed on women and this was certainly a wake up call for her that just because she is who she is, doesn’t mean squat. If anything, Fred seems to take delight in showing her the rules still apply, so much so that he dug around in a musty book to find one that gave him permission to beat her.

This episode forced my hate for Serena to the background so that I was able to hate Fred even more than I already do.

Does she deserve some sort of punishment or poetic justice for all the crimes she has committed against humanity? Yes. But not like that and I didn’t take any sort of satisfaction in seeing her beaten by her husband. In that moment I wanted the two women in the room to band together and protect each other. Even knowing that was impossible and even knowing they know it’s impossible.

Shit. I don’t know. I’m not interested in an outcome where June and Serena braid each other’s hair and drink coco by the fire while watching netflix, that’s not what I’m saying. What’s happened over these two seasons has crossed so many lines that there’s no coming back from it. Having said that, I wouldn’t say no to the two of them taking out that asshole together either. They’re both crafty as hell they could make it look like an accident. They don’t have to be friends after, but they have a common enemy now and if the show might let them work together to reach a common goal I’m down for that.

I’m also ready for him to go to Canada. Get on that plane, bitch.

Edited June 6, 2018 by rideashire

[chocolatine]

Janine singing to a cooing Charlotte at the end was so beautiful, I don't even care how unrealistic it was that she was allowed to be anywhere near the Putnams again. I sat through the very end of the credits to listen to the two of them. I'm not in the medical field, but could it be that Charlotte got sick because of emotional neglect? I've read that babies don't thrive unless you kiss and cuddle and talk to them. We already know Naomi isn't bonded with the baby.

I've firmly resisted feeling any sympathy for Serena until now, but I admire that she took the risk to smuggle the Martha-doctor into the hospital; it was entirely selfless of her. Fred is really the lowest of the low. He openly admitted that Gilead is not about babies but about subjugating women. I wish Serena had fought back - Fred still seems frail from his injuries - but I understand why she didn't.

I have a bad feeling about Emily's outburst in the grocery store, within earshot of the guards. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a second terrorist attack with her as the suicide bomber.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Emily is still defiant. Yay!

There was so little of her. Boo!

Janine gets to hold her baby and comfort her. Yay!

She will have to  hand back her baby. Boo!

Handmaids and others lower on the totem pole have been severely punished for lesser transgressions. Serena got off easy so she can miss me with the tears. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[AnswersWanted]

This episode was a lot.

I thought I had a good bit of it figured out already but a couple of things still shook me. 

My heartache over the doctor, a leader, a top member in her field, her speciality, and they made her a simple Martha.

A woman to now fetch and gather and cook and clean. A woman who had more degrees than probably half of the so called leaders of Gilead. 

I thought the actress playing her was incredible. Her mini breakdown as she dressed in her scrubs, listening to the young male doctor gush over her, a young man trained by one of her former students, I teared up along with her. 

Woohoo, kangaroo care to the rescue.

Of coarse that crazy kook Janine would strip mostly naked and hold her baby girl against her because what Angela was truly being starved of was true love and affection from the only person in that entire group that loved her, her mother, her real and true mother.

I know it’s a bit cheesy and totally unrealistic to end it that way, but again a win is a win in Gilead and I was just happy to see that beautiful baby make it and see that gorgeous smile on Janine’s face. Of course we will return to our regular scheduled program of terror and torment, but I will take this ray of sunshine while I can.

 Emily seems ready to crack to me. And I am here for it as long as she can somehow escape right after. I want her to get to Canada, her wife and son are waiting, hopefully. 

 June is cracking, this episode showed just how desperate she is for affection, and at the end when she realizes that she’s lost both avenues of it from those she needs it from most, the ones who truly affect and decide her fate, Serena Joy is shutting her out again and Fred has shown his true colors of being the cruel master that owns her, that was tough.

I think the show is trying to walk a very fine line and make Serena a full rounded person, and obviously she is not just a wicked witch of a villain, she is a human being, but there’s no way she can never make up for all that she has caused and all of the lives that have been lost because of her direct actions.

Having them show her being human and being broken and being hurt and in pain, I can handle that, as long as they don’t try to turn that into a redemption, because she can never be redeemed for what she’s done, what she can be is remorseful and regretful, that I will accept to a certain degree. 

I don’t think the regret and remorse truck has hit her quite as hard as it did the moment a limping Fred dragged that chair out onto the middle of the floor and she immediately realized what his intentions were.

The expression on her face was perfect. Serena realized her precious, pious Fred was about to fuck her over in a whole new, nightmarish, way. 

The belting scene in the office was well shot and directed and well acted. All three of those individuals killed it.

It was as horrific and bloodcurdling and gut wrenching as any scene of bloodshed they’ve shown so far.

And it was not due to me feeling sorry for Serena, at all, she could have been outright horse whipped and I would not have blinked an eye, at least she would not have her own removed  as a “sinful” handmaid would. 

What touched me was the whole purpose behind the scene. 

 There was one reason and one reason alone Fred did what he did, he is back in control and just as he always seems to, he wants to make himself feel better by making a woman suffer.

That he would whisper an apology into his wife’s ear right before he began to strike her buttocks with a thick leather belt that left her screaming and crying out in agony, all the while he stared at his rape victim a.k.a. “handmaid” and forced her to look on. 

Fred just has to die, he just has to. 

 I really need more Rita.

Her little quip to June about Eden trying her patience, I loved that.

I really want to see more of her, show, where’s her origin story already?

 I like the way the show seemed to compare Nick running his household so to speak with Fred.

Nick basically is trying to give Eden her space, he is trying to avoid her and let her be, but of course Eden, thanks to her dear brainwashing, seems to take offense and seems desperate to get her husband‘s approval, whereas Fred loves and relishes his role as head of household and all the women under his roof obey his every order and cater to his every whim because he owns them. 

I like how horrified Nick became when he realized that he was verbally attacking Eden, even though he did need to make it clear to her that she had to respect his personal space, he was crossing a line, he was becoming a Fred, a man who would use fear and intimidation and panic on his wife to get her to bow and break.

 Just to add, I believe there was a line Eden says to Nick that a “happy home makes a happy husband”.  I guess keeping “a happy wife means a happy life”  would not quite fit in anymore in Gilead. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

Fred just has to die, he just has to. 

He must suffer first.

I loved the scene during Janeen freaking out at June, and then saying "you are turning into one of THEM!"  Both actresses just nailed that.

The women banding together is heartening, first Serena and June, and later Serena working with June, and Janeen, and with the Martha to save that poor unloved little baby.  Hell, in a way even Aunt Lydia helped with that.  Wow.

[AnswersWanted]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He must suffer first.

 

Someone needs to figure out a way to bring people back from the dead after they die from torture. I offer Fred as tribute for that, he would make the perfect guinea pig. He definitely has the pig part down pat.

[mustbekarma]

I truly believed I was going to watch the baby die tonight. I could listen to Janine sing and the baby coo for hours. It was such a peaceful and uplifting moment. That was something I never expected to see.
If looks could kill, Fred would be suffering the most gruesome delights of the Spanish Inquisition

 I didn't misspeak. I would be delighted if Fred endured those tortures. The man of the house was asserting his authoriteh, and he deserves a glorious comeuppance for that.

I actually felt true sympathy for Serena. The man she loved and trusted betrayed her. Serena never thought Fred would be like those other commanders. She learned the only power she has now is what Fred permits her, and that's not going to be much.

It's going to be women like Serena and June who will bring Gilead down. When the commanders start treating their wives as badly as the handmaids, then the wives will finally jump on the clue bus.

[rideashire]

42 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 I like how horrified Nick became when he realized that he was verbally attacking Eden, even though he did need to make it clear to her that she had to respect his personal space, he was crossing a line, he was becoming a Fred, a man who would use fear and intimidation and panic on his wife to get her to bow and break.

I also appreciated that. The actor may have trouble emoting sometimes but Nick has really grown on me. He’s a good person, a normal guy that’s been thrust into all this nonsense against his will and is pretty damn horrified at what’s happening.

I think the last thing he wants is to be like one of them, in any aspect, and it’s interesting to see the difference between him and his unwanted wife and Fred and Serena.

If that child knew half of what was going on around her she’d realize she didn’t draw the short stick after all.

[tennisgurl]

Fred is such a nasty piece of work. He really does love to lord his power as a good, godly man over everyone, even his wife. He seemed so offended by the idea of his wife, who, before all of this, was clearly the smarter, more famous one, doing real work, even where no one can see, that he had to beat her. I hate Serena Joy, and even I felt for her there. She was so convinced that her husband, on some level, still saw her as an equal, respected her, and he just flushed that down the toilet. 

Baby Angela was dying of sadness I guess? With those parents, I guess I can see that. The woman playing the doctor turned Martha was excellent in her few scenes. Her emotional reaction to putting on scrubs again and holding medical equipment was heartbreaking, especially with the young male doctor gushing over her, and slipping right into calling her doctor again. It really hits you what a massive waste Gilead is, with so many people who had/have so much skill and knowledge, killed, or enslaved to do menial work. Obviously, the actual loss of life is horribly tragic, but the loss of knowledge and the pointless waste of such skill and intelligence is a tragedy in and of itself. 

I felt bad for Serena this week, and its admirable how hard she worked to save baby Angela, but I really dont need a Serena redemption arc. This is what she wanted, after all. She was happy to see innocent people die horribly in the street, be enslaved, and all manner of other horrors for what she thought would give her and her husband more power, but when it negatively affects her? Then she gets all upset! Its easy to see this as a very dark kind of karma. She wanted a world where men are in charge, and she got it. That being said, Fred is so awful, its easier to feel sorry for her by default. And the actress does such a great job, I can still feel for her as a human, even a human I dont like.

I got a bit of a snicker out of Rita's annoyance with Eden. Eden might be a full product of the system, but I still feel bad for her. She wants so badly to be what she thinks of as a good wife, even if her husband wants little to do with her. Understandably, being an actual child, but its such a sad situation, especially knowing that she is going to end up bringing trouble.

I also really like the relationship between June and Janine. Both the lighter scene of them debating the merits of the alien franchise, and all the drama and emotions that would follow.

Edited June 6, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Umbelina]

I don't know if it is an attempt at a redemption arc for Serena, or an awakening.  If it's the later, she could be a powerful force, if it's the former?  Well, it will depend on what she else she does for me.

Janine and that baby, OMG, thank you for a little bit of joy at the end.  Nothing medically wrong with Charlotte, I think it's failure to thrive, from lack of love, and touching, and care.

June going to apologize to the Commander was so powerful.

Very well done episode.

Oh, and Hulu, quit switching me to other shows you want to promote, damnit.  I'm also annoyed (but pleased for the show) that we have SO many more commercials this year.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

Fuck Fred. He enjoyed the hell out of that.

[LittleRed84]

1) There is so much in this episode to consider! But first I have to play Devil's advocate here for a second regarding Serena Joy. Hear me out. (I just watched an interview with Yvonne Strahovski and she shed light on what makes Serena tick)... Here's something to ponder:

Many people make statements about Serena like- too bad so sad this is "the world she created" etc etc. I really do NOT believe that this is the Republic she had in mind and the ideas she wanted to share that day she was turned away in the courthouse. In flashbacks we saw her speaking out publicly regarding declining birth rates and how women should return to a more "domestic" lifestyle and concentrate on raising families in the midst of a world that had become overrun by drugs, lust, greed, etc. I believe her intentions were pure. Correct me if I'm forgetting something, but I don't remember her advocating for women's enslavement or rape or being stripped of their rights when planning Gilead? Nor do I remember her saying women should be banned from writing, reading, etc. She basically admitted that to the Ambassador Castillo from Mexico in the office meeting- that she never envisioned a world in which women could not read her book. Yes, Serena was for the overthrow of the government. But she was shut out of the planning stages very very early on for Gilead. Remember the first conversation about Handmaid's in the car between Commanders Waterford, Pryce, and one other commander regarding "rounding up the fertile women and impregnating them"? That was after Serena had been shut out. By that point she had no input. Just like in this episode... we like to say "fight back!" or "don't go along with it!", but what can she really do? They could execute her or send her to the Colonies for going against the law, just like all those dead bodies hanging after the bombing. She can't bear children, so if the Commander doesn't want her, she is of no use.

Anyway, I don't think this is the world she wanted. And of course I'm TeamJune all the way. But if you really think deep, if you were banned from having sex with your own husband, not allowed to think for yourself or read or write or own anything... and had to watch him have sex with another woman because you took a bullet for the cause that created this Republic... would you not also be hateful and bitter? June is the only person Serena has control over and unfortunately she takes out all her anger and frustration on her... everything else must stay pent up. Totally not saying all of Serena's actions are justified at ALL... just that she's human and people crack and become other people under this type of stress and dehumanizing. She's imprisoned in this world she rallied for... but I don't think this is the world she thought was going to happen. I don't think this is what was on those little note cards she wrote up pre-Gilead... 

Okay on to the next!

2) Not sure the rules about theories, so I'll hide this just in case:

Spoiler

I think that Martha-turned-Doctor (vice versa actually) might end up being punished for her actions... I hope not, she didn't even know what she was getting into! But Gilead isn't known for being reasonable... I hope we don't see her on the wall... :(

3) I don't think that Eden read those letters! She knows the rules and isn't a normal nosy teenager- she's a true believer. But I bet now she's suspicious due to his big reaction! I think she really wants to be loved and do a good job. But a woman scorned..... just a thought.

4) I think a main motive for Fred beating Serena in front of June was to drive a wedge between them. When he saw the music box, and THEN that rose.... it's very easy to see that they are getting along and bonding. Red flag for him. Plus they were both gone? And then he pieced together that they were both working on the documents together. He can't have 2 strong willed and smart women bonding behind his back and breaking laws- it's a threat. And that's exactly what happened. He preferred it when they hated each other and June needed to seek refuge in his office for some companionship. So, he whips Serena in front of June. Serena was embarrassed and ashamed. It's bad enough she just now realized the monster she is married to, but also that it happened in front of June. Just as Fred wanted, Serena turned cold again towards June and sends her away. He's very manipulative. I think that was his main intention. The joy of asserting his power and beating her was icing on his cake. Sick, sick man. But I think eventually, maybe it will backfire. Perhaps he will become both of their common enemy? 

[DuckyinKy]

In season 1, SJ throws June into her room, to the floor because she's NOT pregnant then kept her locked in her room for days; later bashes June's head against a door frame because she discovered Fred took June to Jezebels. Season 2, SJ runs up and chokes June because she missed 92 days of her pregnancy then hits Rita after the baby shower because June is pregnant and off-limits. SJ gets a belt lashing from Fred. Sorry not sorry, SJ. Now you know how it feels. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by DuckyinKy

[mamadrama]

I am all for SJ getting a beatdown, but I want it to be from June, Rita...hell, I'd take it from Aunt Lydia or even Eden. I want it to be from someone she's somehow "wronged" or put into a position of subordination.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Serena told June that she wouldn't forget her help, I found myself wondering if that was a promise or a threat. But then the music box showed up so Serena was being sincere and nice, which made me dread the inevitable shoe dropping for the rest of the episode. Later I was shocked when Serena asked June's opinion about baby Angela.

June, on the other hand, has gotten comfortable and careless. She was smart enough to realize that Eden might report Nick if they didn't have sex so she must realize that Eden is not like her, yet she made no attempt to disguise the contempt on her face when the Commander returned home. Later, she called Janine by her real name in front of the guard walking them home which was also careless and stupid. And she really thought that it would be a good idea for Janine to see the baby again? When Warren said, "What harm could it do?" I thought uhhh, at best Janine will get hysterical but at worst she might try to kidnap her.

June knew that her days of working in harmony with Serena were numbered, but somehow Serena naively thought that the Commander coming home would be a good thing. She seemed shocked when Fred ushered her out of his office.

Serena, June, Janine, and the female doctor got a taste of what they had lost which just reopened wounds that clearly hadn't healed. I loved that the male doctor was totally fangirling over the female doctor and made no attempt to challenge anything she said. He clearly respected her expertise and he wasn't a patronizing ass just because he's still allowed to be a doctor and she isn't.

Considering that every time we've seen Mrs. Putnam since Angela was born, she's always complaining about the baby, it wouldn't surprise me if Angela's failure to thrive was because she was not being held or given more than the minimal amount of attention (like parading her about in her stroller in public).

I still don't like Eden but part of me feels bad for her because she's alone most of the day waiting for Nick to come home and when he does, he clearly doesn't want to spend any time with her or talk to her more than necessary. It sounds like she was raised to believe that this is her role, so she gets a bit more sympathy from me than Serena does because Eden didn't have a choice in the matter. She's a child who was told this is what you do. Serena, on the other hand, grew up in a world where there were many more possibilities and she chose to glorify this whole Gilead party line with the return to "family values" and all of that other "womenfolks should embrace the domestic sphere" stuff.

Serena's other mistake was assuming that she was special and that Fred would still treat her the same way no matter what. Instead, he enjoys being able to keep her in her place and subtly rubbing her nose in the fact that he can read while eating his breakfast and she just has to sit there and be ignored.

The Commander is now unredeemable to me. He was clearly a power hungry dick in S1 but he was beyond awful this week. Whispering, "Forgive me, darling," before you proceed to whip the shit out of your wife just takes the cake. DIE IN A FIRE, FRED. But only after someone has beaten, raped, and treated you the way you have treated your wife and handmaids.

[Empress1]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Baby Angela was dying of sadness I guess? With those parents, I guess I can see that. The woman playing the doctor turned Martha was excellent in her few scenes. Her emotional reaction to putting on scrubs again and holding medical equipment was heartbreaking, especially with the young male doctor gushing over her, and slipping right into calling her doctor again. It really hits you what a massive waste Gilead is, with so many people who had/have so much skill and knowledge, killed, or enslaved to do menial work. Obviously, the actual loss of life is horribly tragic, but the loss of knowledge and the pointless waste of such skill and intelligence is a tragedy in and of itself. 

Failure to thrive due to neglect/emotional deprivation, I think. As has been said, the Commander's wife who was raising her was always shown to be bitching about it and I doubt Commanders are expected to interact with children, so she was probably getting fed and changed and bathed - kept alive - but nothing else. (And do the Marthas take on those tasks too?)

It also raises the question about what happens in this world if you're a Commander's wife and don't actually WANT children. I guess you keep your mouth shut lest they execute you or send you off to the Colonies. I have always believed that there are parents walking around, even parents who are outwardly good parents, who wish they'd never done it. I think this Commander's wife falls into that category. I'd bet there's a share of wives who don't want kids and just have to suck it up, which sucks - especially for the kids.

I've seen the actress who played Dr. Hodgson before but I can't place her. She was fantastic here though. When she said "I am the best. Or was," I almost cried. I totally agree with you - such a waste of brains and talent! She was the best in a highly competitive field - I loved the other doctor straight up fanboying out over her - and now she cooks and cleans all day. She must be bored out of her fucking mind.

Fuck Fred. He absolutely enjoyed that, beating one of his women while the other watched. It's a fucking pimp move.

When Eden asked what Nick thought of their place I was like " ... Is it different?" That beat where Eden called Nick sir and he paused like "How is this my life?" was excellent.

[SillyOldClothCat]

8 hours ago, rachel is awesome said:

I'm still not sure what was wrong with baby Angela/Charlotte. Was she experiencing failure to thrive from lack of touching/holding/loving? I can see Momma Putnam not being super maternal. 

Yes, I do think that baby Charlotte/Angela has been literally showing failure to thrive because she hasn't been touched or loved enough by Mrs. Putnam (who hasn't shown any signs of maternal attachment, just frustration with and distaste for the child). It's a genuine and tragic pediatric diagnosis - anybody else remember Harlow's monkeys and their wire vs. cloth-covered 'mothers'? https://harlows-monkey.com/home/why-harlows-monkey/

I'm not surprised that the baby responded to Jeanine/Ofwarren, but the transition from NICU to happy healthy baby overnight seemed a bit too magical. I guess it was all those pious prayers pouring out of Gilead.

[Empress1]

4 minutes ago, SillyOldClothCat said:

Yes, I do think that baby Charlotte/Angela has been literally showing failure to thrive because she hasn't been touched or loved enough by Mrs. Putnam (who hasn't shown any signs of maternal attachment, just frustration with and distaste for the child). It's a genuine and tragic pediatric diagnosis - anybody else remember Harlow's monkeys and their wire vs. cloth-covered 'mothers'? https://harlows-monkey.com/home/why-harlows-monkey/

I'm not surprised that the baby responded to Jeanine/Ofwarren, but the transition from NICU to happy healthy baby overnight seemed a bit too magical. I guess it was all those pious prayers pouring out of Gilead.

Harlow's Monkeys popped into my mind immediately (psych degree here).

[HolmesUltimateQu]

9 minutes ago, SillyOldClothCat said:

Yes, I do think that baby Charlotte/Angela has been literally showing failure to thrive because she hasn't been touched or loved enough by Mrs. Putnam (who hasn't shown any signs of maternal attachment, just frustration with and distaste for the child). It's a genuine and tragic pediatric diagnosis - anybody else remember Harlow's monkeys and their wire vs. cloth-covered 'mothers'? https://harlows-monkey.com/home/why-harlows-monkey/

I'm not surprised that the baby responded to Jeanine/Ofwarren, but the transition from NICU to happy healthy baby overnight seemed a bit too magical. I guess it was all those pious prayers pouring out of Gilead.

Yes! That's what I thought of too. I also thought of that orphanage where the caretakers weren't holding the babies, they were doing the bare minimum to keep them alive and the babies were dying. 

I do agree that the magical transformation overnight is unbelievable but I'm willing to let that one slide for the sake of being in a tv show. 

[gesundheit]

I'm sure we could all see "Janine's loving touch brings the baby back from the brink!" from about fifty miles away, but it was still very affecting.

[mustbekarma]

Just now, gesundheit said:

I'm sure we could all see "Janine's loving touch brings the baby back from the brink!" from about fifty miles away, but it was still very affecting.

I didn't expect that at all. I never expected a moment of pure, unadulterated joy out of this show. I was ready to be sobbing at the end.

[AnswersWanted]

I think Serena Joy always had the mentality that she would be in a protected class once Gilead was established.

 I do not believe that she, considering the way that she has acted towards the other women, put herself among them as being equals.

Rita is not a handmaid, she is the housekeeper not a raped sex slave, there’s no reason for Serena to be so snippy with her or passive aggressive knowing that Rita obviously can’t verbally fight back without risking punishment. She has even shown physical violence towards Rita, it’s inexcusable. 

Serena could be a woman that shows kindness or understanding, especially if she also realizes that she too is trapped in this world.  But instead she is bitter, she is conniving, resentful, and she is cruel whenever she feels like it, and I believe that is due to the fact that she is frustrated: she played herself. 

Perhaps she didn’t know all of what was planned, but she certainly knew enough. Enough to be wary of, to be worried about, to abort the whole entire plan before it got so out of hand. 

She did know that she would be complicit and a willing accessory to countless murders, I remember in season 1 she and Fred munching popcorn in the theater, knowing full well the chaos soon to erupt by their own hands, their own design. 

 She knew that she would have to revoke peoples’ rights, especially women’s rights, she knew that they were going to separate people into groups, those permitted to stay and those who would not. 

She knew there would be “one true religion” declared and all the others invalidated. 

She knew what would happen to those who resisted, who fought back, who challenged them. 

I do not for a second believe Serena was in the dark about what Gilead’s general intentions were, what she never thought was that she would paint herself into a corner right along with every other individual that was labeled female. 

She saw being on top still regardless of what was happening to all the others, after all she helped bring this world to life, she helped construct it, shape it, mold it.

She was one of the original architects, that fact would keep her protected and safe and free. 

But she was wrong, and by the time she got a clue, she was surrounded by men with guns, a husband in total control, and she had nothing left, no rights, no voice, and no hope. 

Serena thought the best way to save the US was to somehow force it to become something that she claimed God could heal and bless, but she forgot the golden rule: do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

She helped to open the door to hell and let the demons out, now she’s merely reaping what she sowed. 

[nodorothyparker]

If anyone still needed an episode to remind us that the entire setup of Gilead is absolutely destructive to everyone involved, this was the one.

Sure, Charlotte/Angela's overnight recovery is a little too TV, but I understand the point it was trying to make.  As others have already said, failure to thrive is a real thing among children for a number of reasons, including neglect.  We've been shown over and over that Naomi Putnam doesn't feel any connection to the baby that was forced upon her in her only allowed role as Wife except as a status symbol (which is its own tragedy), and while I don't doubt that between her and the household staff the kid is adequately fed and changed, that's probably all she's getting.  Babies need to be held and stimulated and engaged.  There have famously been cases of children getting that kind of care in orphanages who failed to thrive to the point they didn't grow or cry anymore.  Madeline Brewer was luminous throughout, especially in the ending stripped down skin to skin scene, but heartbreaking at the same time as you know the very next scene they didn't give us is of those same awful parents taking "their" baby back to probably only neglect her some more. 

Sure, Aunt Lydia.  If this is the thing that breaks her.  Because having an eye ripped out, a baby torn away, raped on the regular, threatened with stoning, and then shuffled off to handle nuclear waste until she dies have been so gentle to her.

I don't think it even matters what we personally think of Serena, how complicit she's been up until now, or how her ideas may or may not have led to consequences far beyond what she intended.  She still doesn't deserve to be beaten by her husband droning a very paraphrased version of Ephesians while the woman he forces himself on on the regular looks on.  There was no reason for that other than to put her in her place and make sure all three of them knew it.  Serena continues to fascinate because she has her spots where you can so clearly see that she sees full well how messed up all this is, like her non direct answer to June's question of whether she misses working (and by implication her life before) or the way she was so intently watching the Janine/Lydia/Putnams drama over the baby play out, how she kept meeting June's eyes and asking her opinion almost like an equal and then pulling back.  But she is still complicit in the system that's causing all this cruelty and unhappiness and she has lorded the limited power it's allowed her over those with even less.  So while she's not an innocent, it's hurting her too.  There were themes running throughout between this and even Nick's scenes with Eden of what having unlimited power over other people does to you and how those at the top use the divisions it causes to prevent otherwise natural alliances against it.  There's been something so interesting in June and Serena's detente building across these past three episodes that made both of their lives at least a little less awful, and of course Commander Fred couldn't have that.

Nice to see the show work in what may be Margaret Atwood's most iconic quote about the difference between men and women. 

[AnswersWanted]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I've seen the actress who played Dr. Hodgson before but I can't place her. She was fantastic here though. When she said "I am the best. Or was," I almost cried. I totally agree with you - such a waste of brains and talent! She was the best in a highly competitive field - I loved the other doctor straight up fanboying out over her - and now she cooks and cleans all day. She must be bored out of her fucking mind.

 

 

Other than Moira and Rita, who get very little screen time anyway, I am annoyed that the show finds these amazing women of color to play such limited and fleeting roles. I would love to see that actress having a permanent role, a regular presence on the show. 

It was so gutting to see what they reduced her to. When she began looking over the baby’s chart and she was right back at work, launching into doctor speak, firing off all the different tests they’d need to run, it was so sad to think of that brilliant, genius mind trapped in a role of total servitude. 

I totally agree with you, how bored and frustrated she has to be. She is able to perform some of the most complex medical procedures and she now dusts the rafters or strips the beds and washes the linens.

How many babies died because she couldn’t help them? Because the best in the business was ordered to mop a floor or serve a roast for dinner. 

[Helena Dax]

Oh, Serena...  I wanted to see her punished, but not by Fred, never by Fred, and not for that, I agree with you, @LittleRed84; he wanted to drive a wedge between June and Serena, and that's one of the reasons he did what he did. I didn't feel sorry for Serena but it wasn't satisfying either: I was too focused on hating Fred. I really thought things wouldn't go there. They all have dirt on each other and Serena and June could bluff that if they go down, he'll go down as well. But boy, was I mistaken. Now I'm just worried that Fred's death won't come soon enough. 

And well, tbh, I still don't feel sorry for Serena.  I feel sorry for the female doctor, for baby Angela, for Janine, June and the Handmaids. I'm sad for Serena, though. As I said in a previous thread,, that's why I can't dislike women who support patriarchy as much as I dislike men who do the same. At the end, most women like Serena end up learning that supporting patriarchy didn't save them from its horrors. Although I must admit that I hated her when we saw the female doctor, a brilliant woman reduced to a house elf because of Serena and her pals. 

Everything about baby Angela was beautiful and sad. The special ambulance for babies, Janine's plea... Warren and his wife shouldn't be allowed to keep the baby, they almost killed her. And I don't care if they didn't want her. If they are Commander and Wife is because they helped to create Gilead, so the least they could so is take good care of a baby they stole from her real mother. Omg, send them to the colonies, I can't even. 

Also, it's stupid to keep the handmaids "working" in the same zone, assignment after assignment. 

Aunt Lydia surprised me. She's such an hypocrite and so honest at the same time. I have no doubt that she was honestly worried about Janine and wanted to protect her from pain, but at the same time, she would be able to punish Janine in terrible ways. I need so much to know more things about her... Where do Aunts live? What was her life pre-Gilead? C'mon show! We know about June, the Waterfords, Nick, Emily, Moira.... But Lydia's still a mystery!

Edited June 6, 2018 by Helena Dax

[DiabLOL]

So most of us were thinking about Harlow's Monkeys yet the top baby specialist didn't? I get that her brain and spirit have been broken by peeling potatoes all day and witnessing the horrors around her but she ruled out everything else how did she not then say well there's nothing physically wrong with her and not think there may be failure to thrive due to neglect?

The scenes with her were for me the most heartbreaking in the series so far. The actress is incredible and I loved how the younger male doctor was Stanning hard.

Yvonne Strahovski is a genius. Her face completely changed in this episode, it opened up like a flower all dewy and sweet at times. 

Am very nervous about what Emily is going to do next. 

Could I hate Fred more? 

[TTLY6]

HOLY SHIT! Just when I think it can't get even more emotionally draining....they up it a level. 

Seeing June want to comfort Serena (which is insane and how freaking stockholm is she now) and could be my wishful thinking but it seemed like Serena was using every fiber of her being to resist. 

 

Janine always being the bright spot in this show is what is saving me from having a damn breakdown. "Blessed be the fruit"... "May the force be with you?" giggling...I almost spit. How are the Guardians not freaking out over their conversations and ignoring and ripping away from them? The Handmaids getting chirpy over Janine showing her pregnancy off got them all yelled at and now they are all chatty Cathy's and no one is saying a word? Loved seeing the old spark back in Emily's eyes! 

I feel like Janine, besides being a tad nuts, is at the point of...what else can they do to me? Took an eye, took my baby and sent me to the colonies..fuck it, I'm going to do what I want.  Standing up to June was amazing and I think it helped snap June out of her compliance.  Could be nothing but Janine's guardian really stuck out to me...the way he looked back at June at the same time as Janine did? hmmm.  

The camera work on the beating was everything! I flinched and balled during the whole thing.  How dare you  make me feel for Serena. 

I need a damn  hug after this one. 

I'm going to go back and rewatch the preview for this but wasn't there a scene were Fred was closing a door, covering his mouth and crying? 

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

 

Aunt Lydia surprised me. She's such an hypocrite and so honest at the same time. I have no doubt that she was honestly worried about Janine and wanted to protect her from pain, but at the same time, she would be able to punish Janine in terrible ways. I need so much to know more things about her... Where do Aunts live? What was her life pre-Gilead? C'mon show! We know about June, the Waterfords, Nick, Emily, Moira.... But Lydia's still a mystery!

I so agree!!! I hate her then there are these moments where I get lost. Her face when talking to June about holding her responsible and June agreeing...I'm so confused! Everyone is out of their lane lol. Is it just women and their love of children that is changing everyone in this situation? 

[nodorothyparker]

28 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

So most of us were thinking about Harlow's Monkeys yet the top baby specialist didn't? I get that her brain and spirit have been broken by peeling potatoes all day and witnessing the horrors around her but she ruled out everything else how did she not then say well there's nothing physically wrong with her and not think there may be failure to thrive due to neglect?

She did tell Serena on her way out the door that they couldn't find any physical cause for the baby's decline.  She also advised unhooking Charlotte/Angela from the machines and "help her feel safe and warm. And pray."  I suppose that could be read as failure to thrive not occurring to her.  It also could be read that she's been imprisoned as a martha talking to an obviously high ranking wife and realizes telling her that another commander and wife are shitty parents neglecting the baby to death may have some blowback for her she doesn't want.

The neonatologist turned martha is another one of those characters I wish we could get to know more because the actress was tremendous in selling that loss of her identity in such short scenes, but since getting her required the transfer from somewhere? that set good old Commander Fred off, I'm guessing we won't see her around the neighborhood. 

I'll concur that it's stupid to keep handmaids "servicing" the same general area for exactly the reasons we saw in this episode.  These women have precious little to do but gossip about the smallest things they do know, so it was unrealistic for Lydia to think that the news about the baby wouldn't get back to Janine.  I'd chalk it up to the bombing-induced shortage of handmaids and you have to work with what you have except that we already know from the bridge incident last season where Janine was obviously reassigned close enough to go snatch the baby back that they apparently never considered it beyond their policy of not telling handmaids news of the children that had been stolen from them.

[LaChavalina]

I had to check and make sure I didn't miss an episode. They made quite a jump from the last scenes of Episode 7 to Serena and June working together as if it were the "new normal." They could have easily devoted an entire episode to their covert work... The flippant remarks that the handmaids were exchanging and the interactions between marthas-handmaids-wives without any men around also seemed out of continuity. We devoted most of an episode to Aunt Lydia breaking June from wanting to be called by her name, but she will casually call Janine by hers? (Did she always do that and I didn't notice?)

I'm imagining they were going for a reference to kangaroo care with Janine and her palliative effect on the baby...

Did anyone else get a sense of foreshadowing from the interaction between Eden and the Commander? Wondering if his disgust with the other women in the household is going to lead him to try something with her. She seems to fit his perfect, submissive womanly mold.

[Helena Dax]

I

16 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

So most of us were thinking about Harlow's Monkeys yet the top baby specialist didn't? I get that her brain and spirit have been broken by peeling potatoes all day and witnessing the horrors around her but she ruled out everything else how did she not then say well there's nothing physically wrong with her and not think there may be failure to thrive due to neglect?

The scenes with her were for me the most heartbreaking in the series so far. The actress is incredible and I loved how the younger male doctor was Stanning hard.

Yvonne Strahovski is a genius. Her face completely changed in this episode, it opened up like a flower all dewy and sweet at times. 

Am very nervous about what Emily is going to do next. 

Could I hate Fred more? 

I don't blame the doctor. Gildead was built on the premise that babies were the most important thing in the world. I'm not surprised the doctor couldn't even imagine that after everything they've done, a Wife could despise a baby so much.

[LittleRed84]

1 hour ago, LaChavalina said:

Did anyone else get a sense of foreshadowing from the interaction between Eden and the Commander? Wondering if his disgust with the other women in the household is going to lead him to try something with her. She seems to fit his perfect, submissive womanly mold.

Oh my goodness, I didn’t even think of this!?! That’s totally possible!

 It also makes me flashback to the season two trailer in which

Spoiler

two people are being weighted down/drown in the pool? I always thought the woman in that scene looked very tiny – too tiny to be Serena or June. I always thought it might be Eden... But the man with her? Nick... or Fred?  Please not Nick!!! (although it would not surprise me if he was willing to risk himself or sacrifice himself for June and the baby).

What do we think??

Edited June 6, 2018 by LittleRed84
Spoiler tag added

[SDVegas]

13 minutes ago, LittleRed84 said:

It also makes me flashback to the season two trailer in which

Spoiler

two people are being weighted down/drown in the pool? I always thought the woman in that scene looked very tiny – too tiny to be Serena or June. I always thought it might be Eden... But the man with her? Nick... or Fred?  Please not Nick!!! (although it would not surprise me if he was willing to risk himself or sacrifice himself for June and the baby).

 

What do we think??

I think that should be spoiler tagged, no? I purposely don't watch trailers or previews.

Edited June 6, 2018 by SDVegas
Added spoiler tag!!

[LittleRed84]

16 minutes ago, SDVegas said:

I think that should be spoiler tagged, no? I purposely don't watch trailers or previews.

I apologize.  I actually was reminded of it myself from someone else’s post in which they did not tag it as a spoiler. Same for his using a belt. I was told that was in the preview. I figured anything in a preview was fair game? Since it’s content directly from Hulu? But I went back and edited my post. 

[Umbelina]

Did anyone else find themselves kind of doing a double take whenever Janine was on screen, and asking yourself the question "OK, who is really the crazy one here?"  Janine wasn't really "crazy" at all.  She was making perfect sense, but, for me at least, it's almost as if I've also been so indoctrinated into that world at times, by watching the show, and caring about these women, that Janine's perfectly normal responses and words struck me much as they struck June (in some ways) as "bad, dangerous, nuts."

"May the force be with you" and the giggle is exactly how anyone not terrified might respond to the rote pseudo-religious things allowed to be said.  This happened a few times in this episode, and long before she held, cuddled, sang to, and loved that baby back into wanting to stay in this world, I found myself thinking, "she not nuts, she's just lost her fear, and is finding her own hope and joy where ever she can."  She's embodying and living with her own kind of faith and version of “Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.” 

Yes, her version of "crazy" could get her killed, but telling June "You are turning into one of THEM!" was true as well. 

Remember, the Putnam's?  Mr. Putnam told Janine he loved her, that he was going to get rid of his wife, and make a life with Janine and their baby.  She was forced to have a lot of forbidden sex with him, including the blow jobs.  Mrs. Putnam found out of course, as did everyone else, and she had her husband punished, which ended up with the other Commanders ruling that he should have his hand removed.  Now, in this fucked up world, the wife is forced to raise essentially, her husband, and his mistress's child.  I'm not defending that witch at all, but I do wonder if this was really a Gilead Handmaid-only baby, if she would hate it so much?  Maybe not.  Maybe she would, but knowing you must raise and supposedly love your husband's girlfriend's baby? 

Another interesting thing was in the store, at least about supplies and a bit more about the situation in devastated and embargoed Gilead.  Store intercom:  "Blessed day. We have citrus.  This is the last week of the wheat bread for this season..."  I couldn't catch the rest.  So yeah, their supplies are quite limited.  That store was less shiny and bright and full than last season's as well.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Umbelina
typo

[I-Kare]

Call me crazy, but I don't think Serena's actions of late have been out of the blue or our of character. I saw small moments of it in S1. The only difference is that S1 her positive/negative actions were probably 10/90 and now it's up to 30/70 give or take (my numbers are in no way scientific or probably accurate)....I think it'd be interesting if the trend continues and she eventually (not right away, maybe seasons down the road) leads the resistance. Or at least joins. 

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, I-Kare said:

Call me crazy, but I don't think Serena's actions of late have been out of the blue or our of character. I saw small moments of it in S1. The only difference is that S1 her positive/negative actions were probably 10/90 and now it's up to 30/70 give or take (my numbers are in no way scientific or probably accurate)....I think it'd be interesting if the trend continues and she eventually (not right away, maybe seasons down the road) leads the resistance. Or at least joins. 

Who knows? She’s headed towards some sort of either revelations or breakdown of some kind. I can’t wait to see her in Canada when she gets a taste of how woman are treated in the normal world again.

[Eureka]

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Serena told June that she wouldn't forget her help, I found myself wondering if that was a promise or a threat. But then the music box showed up so Serena was being sincere and nice, which made me dread the inevitable shoe dropping for the rest of the episode. Later I was shocked when Serena asked June's opinion about baby Angela.

June, on the other hand, has gotten comfortable and careless. 

Yup, I said to DS that not forgetting was a double edged sword, and also used the same “waiting for the shoe to drop” phrase. And I agree about June being careless. I expected the guards to smack her in the face with their guns every time she said “she’s fine” and “I’ve got her,” mainly bc of her attitude.

One thing I miss from the book is how they talk about the words they used “before,” like even just “hello.” In the show, there is obviously “before” in terms of laws and lifestyle, etc. but aside from adding the “blessed be the fruit” etc. phrases, they still all talk the same. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Eureka

[sam77]

I’m guessing the writers have used June’s pregnancy as a useful device for the character to get away with some of the minor infractions the guards seem to ignore.  A pregnant handmaid is a precious commodity, even ones kept chained up in a solitary room.  Aunt Lydia was very frank about what will happen if she continues to act as June and not Offred once the baby is born.  

[heckkitty]

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

She did tell Serena on her way out the door that they couldn't find any physical cause for the baby's decline.  She also advised unhooking Charlotte/Angela from the machines and "help her feel safe and warm. And pray."  I suppose that could be read as failure to thrive not occurring to her.  It also could be read that she's been imprisoned as a martha talking to an obviously high ranking wife and realizes telling her that another commander and wife are shitty parents neglecting the baby to death may have some blowback for her she doesn't want.

This. I think she knew full well that it was FTT, which is why she said that. & she didn’t dare accuse a commander & wife of neglect.