"The Americans" Part 2

[Nash]

I think the FBI will want to get every single ounce of intelligence out of this. They have the home (and E didn’t destroy anything) plus a good few safe houses. Paige, Henry, Stan, Renee all know stuff, some of which they don’t know that they know. Even Henry. There is going to be a long process of interviews. In short, to get the info they need, the FBIs best move is to put initial pressure and then gain cooperation via a deal. So I don’t think PH or Stan do time. In fact, they could spin Stan as the hero. This is not about justice. 

 

The next few weeks will decide Renees fate as her background will get the kind of deep research no false legend will withstand. If her ID is a child who died very young, she’s burnt. She knows that - hence the wistful look at the Jennings house, they got away. 

 

On that basis, I think Paige is actually just sinking vodka until the Feds arrive (the flat must be on the list to check). And, at the hockey? What we don’t see is the wire stan is wearing or the agents stacked up at the door

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Nash said:

The next few weeks will decide Renees fate as her background will get the kind of deep research no false legend will withstand. If her ID is a child who died very young, she’s burnt

This is what I still don't understand about Renee. If she's "one of us" in the sense of being an illegal, we've been given to understand that the illegals identities wouldn't withstand a thorough background check. So her plan to work as an admin at the FBI suggests she can't be that. Which would leave her as, potentially, an American-born recruit - but I don't recall anything in the show that suggests they were relying on native-born Americans to that extent, and it would take a particularly intense level of commitment for someone who has presumably never even been to Russia to engage in a sham marriage with an FBI agent on behalf of the USSR. 

Also, if she isn't an illegal, the oft-cited "University of Indiana" gaffe can't be a clue. 

[Nash]

Around s2 I wondered if there had been a soviet agent in the 1940s (like the burgess/Maclean/philby & co) who was able to create a shedload of real fake identies for the KGB. Then I read more about it and learnt that one job the Rezidenturas had was finding IDs that could be used. The ever popular one being children who died very young. So the IDs were solid but not that solid. 

To be honest, the Renee issue only makes sense as a plot device, a bit of misdirection. The cast interviews suggest that about 80% of the cast thought she was a spy. And the younger actors seemed pretty cranked up about it not being resolved, KS in particular. 

It does seem insane to try to join the KGB on a fake ID but perhaps some genius had thought Stan could oil the wheels for his wife in the way it would work in Moscow? 

[Umbelina]

She could also be like Gregory, a native, committed to the cause.

I think she's Directorate S though, with good enough background to work in HR.

[Nash]

In which case her cover will stack up but it’s a question of her holding to her story. Wonder what her dead letter drop/debrief routine is? 

I presume the general tendency is that she’s KGB? 

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think she's Directorate S though, with good enough background to work in HR.

To me this seems like it kind of undermines the whole 2nd gen program if Illegals can work at the FBI and pass a background check even on PR level. I don't know just how deep that background check would go but it seems like they'd need to have a record that didn't become fuzzy before sometime in the 60s.

[Nash]

I was presuming that if she was  a recruited local agent she would still work for S. If Renee is kgb she is an agent, not an officer. She has a rock solid story because it’s real.

thats what baffled me about the 2nd generation idea - they would have solid cover but their parents story could still be broken. Meanwhile you’d have the question of training, ideology, loyalty all sorts of issues, not least that the kids are far more American than Russian. 

I am curious as to what the real illegals achieved cf their cost when compared to recruited, turned agents. The very fact they existed created an existential threat I suppose and in a war scenario they’d assist spetznatz sabotage teams.....

[sistermagpie]

There were some interesting posts in the retrospective thread about tone vs. reality in the finale and how the showrunners are maybe speaking louder through the former than the latter and I agree. So I thought I'd just say what I got tonally about the characters from the end. Obviously plenty of this can be argued against with plot logic or realism, but this is the gist of what I got. None of it specifically says what will happen to the characters, it's just a general sense of what note they seem to be hitting with everyone.

Some things seemed pretty certain, others uncertain.

Philip and Elizabeth are starting over again like they did in 1965 in a land that's half-familiar and half-strange with only each other to rely on and be understood by. Hence the looking ahead into the future together and the last line pretty much explicitly saying that etc. Their future in that sense seemed pretty clear.

Claudia, too, seemed to be given some certainty in that she'd return to the USSR and continue the fight as always. She wouldn't change--as Emmett, I think, said, she'd just go on and on. She'd absorb this blow like others before it: stoically.

Oleg's last shot also seemed certain: He's in jail, locked away from his family, for the foreseeable future. We don't know for how long, but he's not going home next week.

The part of Stan's future that seemed certain was that he would keep his secret about the Jennings and any scrutiny he would be under wouldn't be a danger. What was uncertain was what he would do now with everything else. His happy life with Renee was over, either because he was going to discover she was a spy too or just because he wouldn't trust her. He's following all the steps laid out in the garage (lying about the Jennings, suspecting Renee, going to Henry) but none of these things guarantee a certain future. The only one where we I think glimpse where it will lead is his lying to Aderholdt. And even that doesn't lay out his future with the FBI.

The Jennings kids had more uncertainty in their final moments. I do think, as I said, that Paige was clearly going to live life as herself. Just as Stan lying to Aderholdt was there to put to rest Stan under suspicion, Paige returning to DC out of costume said she was no longer living a life with deception at the center. (I can imagine her spy career seeming like a dream to her as she gets older.) As for what she would do next, though, that was completely uncertain. She's starting very much from scratch, staring into the middle distance.

With Henry, I think his life at school is meant to suggest he has some basis for a life--he's not starting from scratch like Paige. Not in a material sense, that is. But he is emotionally, and I think the last shot of him is meant to reflect that. The body language in the last shot is obviously not one that conveys a landing--hard or soft. He and Paige are mirrored in the way they're both staring ahead into empty space. Actually, they're also mirroring their parents. All four Jennings are looking out into the distance. The show even chose to not have Philip and Elizabeth holding hands or something as they do it. Which I don't think is meant to imply any sort of breach between them (they don't need to hold hands to know the other is there). But each person is dealing with the end of their own story on their own. Stan stared into the distance earlier, after the garage scene. By the end montage he's staring at sleeping Renee.

Edited July 10, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Dobian]

I'd like to learn if Renee really was a KGB agent, and if Stan's suspicions undermined and destroyed their marriage.  I'd also like to see the impact on Stan over time as the FBI pieces together evidence that shows all the people Philip and Elizabeth killed or may have killed.  I'm sure he will be second-guessing himself to his grave about letting them go.  I'd like to see how Philip and Elizabeth might try to communicate with Paige and Henry from Russia.  Even with the fall of the Soviet Union, they will always be wanted in the U.S.  And I would really like to see Oleg's fate.  I think it would be pretty obvious that he wasn't here for espionage against the U.S., but to stop a plot against his own leader.  I would think Gorbachev could or would arrange for his release.

[CherithCutestory]

On 7/7/2018 at 3:48 PM, companionenvy said:

This is what I still don't understand about Renee. If she's "one of us" in the sense of being an illegal, we've been given to understand that the illegals identities wouldn't withstand a thorough background check. So her plan to work as an admin at the FBI suggests she can't be that. Which would leave her as, potentially, an American-born recruit - but I don't recall anything in the show that suggests they were relying on native-born Americans to that extent, and it would take a particularly intense level of commitment for someone who has presumably never even been to Russia to engage in a sham marriage with an FBI agent on behalf of the USSR. 

 

I think Philip was just plain wrong. I don't see any way Renee being a KGB spy made a lick of sense. First, Stan stopped working for counter-intelligence but she stayed with him. I can't imagine Philip sticking with Martha if she suddenly stopped having info. Second, the one little bit of info she had (that he was working on a couple) wasn't passed onto the Centre until Elizabeth heard it. Third, she was able to get a job with the FBI and was even interested in a role as an agent (which would have had a tougher security check.) Fourth, if she was a spy she was bad at it. She was so OTT and unsubtle. It works if she's just that kind of person. 

And, Philip should have known some of these. The whole point of them wanting Paige was so she can get in places he couldn't. But in season 6 he learns she wants a job with the FBI and that doesn't register? If she's an illegal why is she with a guy working on bank robberies? It's just another emotion masquerading as a fact for him. Renee came on the scene while he was still upset over Martha and he projected his guilt all over Renee and Stan. And Stan has to suffer the rest of his life for it. 

But there is the potential she was a spy not working for the KGB. Maybe an allied nation that would have more in-roads in creating backstories. I don't personally hold with this. And the most popular alternative theory is a pretty antisemitic one, in my opinion. 

Personally, I like to think she's MI6 as a fun alternative. Or actual Swedish intelligence like Philip pretended to be. (Not saying these make sense but it's fun to speculate.) But I think in the end she just wasn't a spy. 

Of course, Stan will never shake the idea now. So, that marriage is over. 

Stan was already burned out in season 5. So, no way does he stay in the FBI at all now. Former FBI agents can get some very cushy jobs working high level security for corporations. But that will never satisfy him. 

18 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'd like to see how Philip and Elizabeth might try to communicate with Paige and Henry from Russia.

I don't think they will. I think they'd both assume neither wants anything to do with them. They both seem to very much understand that they've lost their children forever. 

On 7/9/2018 at 10:47 PM, sistermagpie said:

As for what she would do next, though, that was completely uncertain. She's starting very much from scratch, staring into the middle distance.

I think after a couple of years she goes back to school and becomes a therapist. Knowing, with some satisfaction, that talking to privileged Americans about their emotions as a job would kill her mother. 

Of course, Paige is her father's daughter. So she'll need to process this and need therapy to talk it through for the rest of her life. 

On 7/9/2018 at 10:47 PM, sistermagpie said:

With Henry, I think his life at school is meant to suggest he has some basis for a life--he's not starting from scratch like Paige. Not in a material sense, that is. But he is emotionally, and I think the last shot of him is meant to reflect that.

Henry has always been his mother's son through and through. I think his response will just be repress, repress, repress. He'll be ostensibly fine. Yes, he'll probably have to leave that school but that's hardly the end of the world.  The only outward sign of all the pain and heartache this caused him will be a massive throbbing vein threatening to burst. 

On 7/7/2018 at 2:41 PM, Nash said:

I think the FBI will want to get every single ounce of intelligence out of this. They have the home (and E didn’t destroy anything) plus a good few safe houses. Paige, Henry, Stan, Renee all know stuff, some of which they don’t know that they know. Even Henry. There is going to be a long process of interviews.

Will the FBI want to do this? Absolutely. Will they? I doubt it. Spy scandals in the past have been covered over. And I think they'll get word from the top to just let it go. It may infuriate them but what can they do? 

Look at the timing. A major treaty is about to be signed. Having this story be dwelled on with new revelations and other arrests coming out over time isn't in anyone's best interest. The US looks like a chump to have these spies on their soil. The USSR looks bad sending them. This is a time when they are supposed to be becoming friends. 

Realistically, if the breadth of what Philip and Elizabeth did was discovered during the START treaty our history would be very different. But I don't think we are supposed to think history has changed. In fact, Elizabeth kept it on track. So, we have to assume the FBI is not allowed to dig too deep into the activities of Elizabeth, Philip, Harvest, Claudia etc.

Edited January 13, 2019 by CherithCutestory

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Will the FBI want to do this? Absolutely. Will they? I doubt it. Spy scandals in the past have been covered over. And I think they'll get word from the top to just let it go. It may infuriate them but what can they do? 

Look at the timing. A major treaty is about to be signed. Having this story be dwelled on with new revelations and other arrests coming out over time isn't in anyone's best interest. The US looks like a chump to have these spies on their soil. The USSR looks bad sending them. This is a time when they are supposed to be becoming friends. 

Realistically, if the breadth of what Philip and Elizabeth did was discovered during the START treaty our history would be very different. But I don't think we are supposed to think history has changed. In fact, Elizabeth kept it on track. So, we have to assume the FBI is not allowed to dig too deep into the activities of Elizabeth, Philip, Harvest, Claudia etc.

That makes a lot of sense. These are always political decisions.   

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

And, Philip should have known some of these. The whole point of them wanting Paige was so she can get in places he couldn't. But in season 6 he learns she wants a job with the FBI and that doesn't register? If she's an illegal why is she with a guy working on bank robberies? It's just another emotion masquerading as a fact for him. Renee came on the scene while he was still upset over Martha and he projected his guilt all over Renee and Stan. And Stan has to suffer the rest of his life for it. 

I agree with all these problems with Renee as an Illegal--she was terrible at it, she was working at the FBI (if she can do that, why does she need to marry Stan?), she's living with a guy not working in Counterintelligence (and who was planning to quit before they married), she never seemed to pass on any information.

That said, if she's supposed to be an Illegal presumably Stan can easily check that out--it's like Gaad says about Joyce, either she's real or she's not. Stan can simply look up her past. Is she in actual high school yearbooks? Are her parents people who exist? Once you actually have a suspicion it's really quite easy to check if you're right or not. You just look up a social security number for a death, for instance.

But the issue with Renee seems bigger than that for Stan. For me, it doesn't play as Stan being happy and then Philip ruining it, because there's so much weird stuff before that. The whole marriage just seems so fake and superficial, like Stan's trying to be this other guy. Once he starts getting interested in the Illegal hunt again he's staring out the window and not telling Renee why, again talking about being at work late, planning how to lie to get out of having lunch with her every day at work while his conversations with Renee remain totally superficial.

On one hand Stan would be suffering for nothing. But I think it does say something very consistent about Stan that would he would be drawn to a relationship that looks like such a sham to us with a woman who comes across like a Stepford wife. He's a good target for spies because he prefers people who don't see things in himself he doesn't like. It's possibly Renee has other reasons for being a fake person, but if Stan hasn't realized that about her he's still missing something.

None of which makes me think the writers couldn't have actually intended Renee to be a spy, though. I'm honestly not sure they see these flaws in her story because they're so obvious you'd think everybody on the show would have thought of them, and yet they don't. Even if Philip's driven by guilt, it's not like Elizabeth points out these problems either and they themselves have, iirc, been coy about Renee and described Philip as trying to do a good thing in warning Stan. Which of course he would still think he was doing if he was wrong, but you'd think they would referenced that at least a little if Philip was so obviously wrong. Or at least referenced the humor in Renee being a naturally fake person and why that might be. They never seemed to really own up to her seeming like a fake human being and I thought they liked people wondering about it like it's a possibility.

Of course, even if Philip hadn't specifically targeted Renee, he destroyed Stan's trust in everyone just by being himself, I guess. Though if Stan himself was actually undercover he would understand that one can still feel honest emotions when lying about who they are.

 

16 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Henry has always been his mother's son through and through. I think his response will just be repress, repress, repress. He'll be ostensibly fine. Yes, he'll probably have to leave that school but that's hardly the end of the world.  The only outward sign of all the pain and heartache this caused him will be a massive throbbing vein threatening to burst. 

That's what I imagine too. A lot of people see Henry as sitting in Stan's lap and pouring out his heart to him (almost as if he's only been prevented from this by having to pretend Philip and Elizabeth were his parents or something) and this makes no sense to me. Henry's never been one to talk through this stuff that way--he deals with things by withdrawing and repressing. (And also, he's not the little boy from S1, he's already living independently.) I do actually imagine him staying in the school and thought that was a large point of laying out how he he was not going to live at home again anyway. But if not, I still think he'd get into a great college. He'd make it work. Far from wanting to share his pain with Paige and Stan I think he'd instinctively avoid too much time with either of them so he can keep the relationships easier and keep reminders to a minimum. Everything about him on the show to me says that he deals with messy emotional ties by putting distance between them and himself. He doesn't want to know.