Jack: A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an... oh, who are we kidding?

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

In sum, Jack as a human/angel hybrid provides the son to "My Three Dads" that we couldn't get otherwise.  I'm really digging that angle.  

I have zero interest in them "playing" dads. I prefer to see them "saving people and hunting things".

[catrox14]

Dean wouldn't shoot a normal child. Dean shot Jack because he knows it wouldn't hurt him and to get his attention.  He would get a human child's attention in a different way.  So I don't see that being something Dean wants to actually do.  And he made it damn clear he did NOT want to parent Jack at all.  He acquiesced to Sam when Dean was grieving. Of course, Dean accepts Jack as family because he resurrected Cas and tried to save Mary and the narrative decided that Dean had to be wrong about Nougat Boy.  

I'm pretty done with Sam and Dean parenting Jack.  I hope Sam spends more time finding a way to find Dean rather than parent someone who just spent however long in the AU managing to become a "soldier" and be loved and admired by the AU peeps and be Mary's surrogate son. I'm not seeing what parenting he really needs at this point. He needs some life advice and therapy.

[Pondlass1]

The bottom line is that Alex was hired for the younger audience.  The ones we see at conventions asking about pranks. 

He's a good enough actor.  But I cannot see them giving him a dark storyline because they won't want to lose ratings.  Flat, one-dimension characters are all over TV today.  I cannot stand to watch half the TV shows now.

I'm not the least bit interested in seeing Jack being parented by anyone.  He aged so quickly and then stopped ...it doesn't make sense.  He should be shopping for a walker and toupee by now!  

[SueB]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wouldn't shoot a normal child. Dean shot Jack because he knows it wouldn't hurt him and to get his attention.  He would get a human child's attention in a different way.  So I don't see that being something Dean wants to actually do.  And he made it damn clear he did NOT want to parent Jack at all.  He acquiesced to Sam when Dean was grieving. Of course, Dean accepts Jack as family because he resurrected Cas and tried to save Mary and the narrative decided that Dean had to be wrong about Nougat Boy.  

I'm pretty done with Sam and Dean parenting Jack.  I hope Sam spends more time finding a way to find Dean rather than parent someone who just spent however long in the AU managing to become a "soldier" and be loved and admired by the AU peeps and be Mary's surrogate son. I'm not seeing what parenting he really needs at this point. He needs some life advice and therapy.

It''s true in EP 13.1-13.3 he made that clear (despite instinctively double thinking giving him a beer) ... and then he:
- treated him like an intern but complimented him in the kitchen at the end 13.4
- was pretty forgiving of him killing the security guard in Tombstone
- called Jack "family" in The Bad Place
- immediately tried to get between Lucifer and Jack even talking in 13.21
- went to see about his nightmares and offered parental-like device
- and shot him when he was acting "psycho"
That last bit? Shooting him?  That was a parenting move ala Dean Winchester and a supernatural kid.  I freakin' LOVED that moment.

Dean is a natural "dad". Jack is still emotionally a child. One of the few benefits of the Michael!Dean story is that it will push Sam to step up to the plate on being a "Dad" rather than Dean just doing what he does so effortlessly.  

So sure, it may not be some people's cup of tea but this is something I'm personally interested in am are hopeful we see it explored.

 

[ILoveReading]

59 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean is a natural "dad". Jack is still emotionally a child. One of the few benefits of the Michael!Dean story is that it will push Sam to step up to the plate on being a "Dad" rather than Dean just doing what he does so effortlessly.  

Despite Dabb's words about the Winchesters being dads in the end it was really just Sam, as Dean wanted nothing to do with Jack.   So as @catrox14 pointed out Jack's "formative years" were shaped by Sam alone.   Dean and Cas really had nothing to do with it.

So I'm not seeing how Sam stepping up to parent is really going to be anything different then we already saw.

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

- treated him like an intern but complimented him in the kitchen at the end 13.4
- was pretty forgiving of him killing the security guard in Tombstone
- called Jack "family" in The Bad Place
- immediately tried to get between Lucifer and Jack even talking in 13.21
- went to see about his nightmares and offered parental-like device
- and shot him when he was acting "psycho"
That last bit? Shooting him?  That was a parenting move ala Dean Winchester and a supernatural kid.  I freakin' LOVED that moment.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

I didn't say Dean wasn't behaving in some protective fashion with Jack.  I'm saying it's  not because Dean is all "Yay, I'm Jack's dad.  Get away from my son". Dean would have stepped between anyone and Satan  because he knows how manipulative and terrible and shitty Lucifer is and especially for a  young entity who might be susceptible to his own father's shitty lies and influence. Dean is a decent human being and is good with kids in general.  He treated Jack as he would have any kid. I don't think it's indicative of Dean wanting to be a Dad again at all. 

Dean literally said he wasn't going to do it until Sam manipulated him during the shiftepist episode, into helping him because Sam was in over his head with how to deal with Jack (or any kid really).  I think it's remarkable how easily the narrative decided that Dean was the bad guy in Sam's mind for not wanting to be responsible for Satan's Spawn.  Some of that was Dean's grief and some of it was Dean's actual common sense that Satan's Spawn could easily go dark side. 

Also, I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't want to see what you want to see. I'm saying that I don't care to see it and I also don't see what else there is for Sam or Dean or really even  Cas to parent at this point with Jack.  And IMO Dean didn't really parent Jack at all. He treated him as an equal and gave him some life advice.  He was an uncle at best.  Poor Castiel was the real outcast in all this. 

[ILoveReading]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean would have stepped between anyone and Satan  because he knows how manipulative and terrible and shitty Lucifer is

This. 

When Dean tried to step between Lucifer and Jack he was lectured about having to let Jack make up his own mind.   Everyone discounted that lying manipulator part to once again act like Dean was trying to control Jack.

It almost backfired on them because no one really stepped into to explain what really happened or that Lucifer was trying to portray himself as the victim. 

Sometimes parents have to be the heavy.  It's like Dean's story about CBGBs.  You don't let your kid play in traffic so s/he can learn why its not a good idea.   It seems SPN's version of parenting is yes, no and how high and if you disagree your too controlling and you need to back off.   If this is SPN's version of parenting, I'd rather not see any more of it, for Sam, Cas or Dean. 

Because if Jack is such a precious sweet soul he'll never make a wrong decision, why does he even need an parent?

Edited June 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

There is still no reasonable explanation other than 'for reasons' that Jack stopped aging. Are we to assume he will just stay like this forever now? Do other vessels age normally while in use? I guess they haven't bothered to explain why Castiel still ages. Misha is a youthful looking guy, but he doesn't look the same as he did in S5 or even S7 (depending on when the Jimmy suit ceased to exist).

[Pondlass1]

I certainly hope (for the mother's sake) that Jack was the size of a newborn when born - then for some inexplicable reason he shot up to cute teenage and there he has remained.  And will remain I guess so long as the CW caters to teens.

[sarthaz]

Really excited to see what new and creative ways they use Jack next season.

- Jack doesn't understand toothpaste

- Jack holds his badge upside down

- Jack works at the Gas n Sip

- Jack's phone is running out of minutes

The possibilities are endless.

[Commando Cody]

On 6/13/2018 at 10:43 PM, SueB said:

 

Bottom line: A regular child is "at rick" all the time.  A superpowered child frankly takes a lot of worry off the table.

 

This line reminds me of an episode of Grimm. Someone wanted to kidnap the little girl Hexenbiest. The dad let him take her. She came home and he asked her how it went. 

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Really excited to see what new and creative ways they use Jack next season.

- Jack doesn't understand toothpaste

- Jack holds his badge upside down

- Jack works at the Gas n Sip

- Jack's phone is running out of minutes

The possibilities are endless.

LMFAO!

[MysteryGuest]

Jack mentioned something at the beginning of the season that Kelly had told him he'd need to "grow up fast" to protect himself.  I can't remember which episode it was, but it was a hand-wave explanation as to why he wasn't an infant.  I think most nephilim would age at the normal rate, but no one really wanted to watch Three Men and a Baby for all of season 13.  But he's aging now at the normal rate, which will allow him to remain heartthrob material for the younger set.  

Considering how upset everyone was about Kelly carrying Lucifer's baby at the beginning, I think it would have made for a better story had they at least been a bit ambiguous about whether he'd be good or evil.  He was pretty much innocent and good from the get go, so it eliminated any drama that might have come from that.  It made Dean's overt caution seem completely unwarranted, when really, who wouldn't be concerned about the child of Lucifer?  But the writers we have aren't big on nuance, so we got one-dimensional, sweet Jack.  The fact that it works for me is solely due to the actor himself.  He's very likable, and he has good chemistry with the rest of the main cast.  

I have no idea what they'll do about his powers, or Cas'.  I honestly can't even remember now whether Cas even has any powers anymore?  Frankly, I'd be fine with keeping their powers at a minimum.  But because Dabb can't bring himself to move on from the archangel storylines, he has to keep them able to be powered up at a moment's notice.  Sam and Dean, on their own, would be no match for the likes of Lucifer and Michael.  Which is why I wish they'd go back to monster hunting.  It's ridiculous every time they have an encounter with Lucifer and he doesn't just snap his fingers and implode them.  He does it to everyone else, but yet these two men who have caused him nothing but grief for years, he seems to forget he can just kill.  It's dumb.

[raven]

If you all want to add to the "Jack" title, post some new suggestions or re-post your old ones here and we'll put up a poll on Monday.

[gonzosgirrl]

Title suggestion: Jack: A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an... oh, who are we kidding?

[SueB]

Title suggestion: Jack: A cinnamon roll with nougat center

[catrox14]

Jack: Satan's Nougat Spawn

[DittyDotDot]

Jack: Sweet Smelling Son of Satan

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Jack: Sweet Smelling Son of Satan

I like this one!

[ILoveReading]

Jack:  Can there be anyone more boring then me.

[sarthaz]

Jack: *sigh*

[Pondlass1]

Jack - Is Dad Really Dead?

[MysteryGuest]

I'm horrible at naming things, so I'll go along with whatever the consensus is.  

I agree that Jack is sort of boring, and having him go on hunts will render Sam and Dean completely useless.  So I have to assume they are trying to come up with some other plan for him.  He'll be needed to help deal with Dean/Michael, but once that's resolved, then what?  Of course, the easy answer, at least for these writers, is to never actually resolve that storyline.  We can just keep doing the same thing, over and over and over, until the show comes to an end. 

Can these writers really muster up any enthusiasm to continue writing about whiny Lucifer and his never-ending daddy issues?  Or his brother issues?  I really hate that they've shifted the focus away from Sam and Dean and turned it on Lucifer.  I do not care about him at all, and I want him gone, permanently!  I really will be very disappointed if he's back next year, but I'm fully expecting it to happen.  

[auntvi]

Jack: Cinnamon-sugary Son of Satan

[takalotti]

Catrox may not have renominated this one, but I certainly will!...

On 5/30/2018 at 9:54 AM, catrox14 said:

Jack - The Nougaty Cinnamon Roll Filled with the Plotonium Center

 

And then an idea I had...

Jack: He keeps hurting people

(Or "Why does he keep hurting people?")

Edited June 18, 2018 by takalotti

[raven]

Thank you for all your submissions.

Here is the poll to name the Jack topic!

[gonzosgirrl]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:52 PM, trxr4kids said:

I have zero interest in them "playing" dads. I prefer to see them "saving people and hunting things".

+1

I would actually be ok if one of them actually had a kid with someone, (RIP Emma), or even mentoring a teenage/young adult hunter like  Krissy and her friends. Someone forced into the life and left alone. But a naive, overgrown baby (not in a trenchcoat) gets tired quickly.

Hey, that might have been a good title suggestion since Jack has apparently lost his powers. Jack: Overgrown Baby (Not in a Trenchcoat). I guess it's too late, lol. I'm with @takalotti though, this one was awesome:

On 5/30/2018 at 9:54 AM, catrox14 said:

Jack - The Nougaty Cinnamon Roll Filled with the Plotonium Center

Edited June 19, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
extra word - oh for the love of a preview screen

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

+1

I would actually be ok if one of them actually had a kid with someone, (RIP Emma), or even mentoring a teenage/young adult hunter like the Krissy and her friends. Someone forced into the life and left alone. But a naive, overgrown baby (not in a trenchcoat) gets tired quickly.

Hey, that might have been a good title suggestion since Jack has apparently lost his powers. Jack: Overgrown Baby (Not in a Trenchcoat). I guess it's too late, lol. I'm with @takalotti though, this one was awesome:

I'm confused why it wasn't included in the poll.  Oh well.  I had it in the Jack thread.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm confused why it wasn't included in the poll.  Oh well.  I had it in the Jack thread.

I think it had to be posted or re-posted after the mod request. takalotti quoted it, but it must've been overlooked.

[sarthaz]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

+1

I would actually be ok if one of them actually had a kid with someone, (RIP Emma), or even mentoring a teenage/young adult hunter like  Krissy and her friends. Someone forced into the life and left alone. But a naive, overgrown baby (not in a trenchcoat) gets tired quickly.

Hey, that might have been a good title suggestion since Jack has apparently lost his powers. Jack: Overgrown Baby (Not in a Trenchcoat). I guess it's too late, lol. I'm with @takalotti though, this one was awesome:

I totally would have voted for Naive Overgrown Baby (Not in a Trenchcoat)

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it had to be posted or re-posted after the mod request. takalotti quoted it, but it must've been overlooked.

Oh. did not get that. Thanks. 

We can say it's the unofficial thread name LOL

[Bergamot]

(Bringing over my comment from the "Jack in the Box" thread.)

Quote

Let us also observe that after Jack had toasted Mary to a crisp, his #1 priority in 14.18 was to "fix it" so that Sam, Dean, and Cas would welcome him back into their circle again. That was his main goal, and also the reason that Hallucifer managed to dig his claws in so quickly and easily. It was all about Jack's place among his "dads" being put in peril. To him, she could have been anybody who was sufficiently innocent and helpless enough. 

His "apology" was so dire it was almost cringey. He called her murder an accident. He didn't talk about Mary as a person, just as an inconvenient obstacle to things returning to how they used to be. What he personally wanted was all that mattered.

I was thinking along these same lines lines after watching "Absence". I saw people saying that Jack had been driven "mad with guilt" because he killed Mary, but my impression was that what we were seeing was not a feeling of guilt. Jack was not judging himself for killing Mary, accepting responsibility for what he had done, or even feeling grief at losing her. Rather what he was feeling was an intense fear of the consequences of his action. "Jack in the Box" confirmed that for me. He knew, or at least feared, that Dean and Sam might reject him for killing Mary, but he didn't seem to accept that it would be deserved.

The thing is that Jack has never been human, whether or not he had grace, or a soul, or either or both of them.  He is a supernatural creature, who learned to act human by observing and imitating the people he had attached himself to. And to me, the most interesting aspect of Jack was his motivation for this mimicry: he genuinely and deeply wanted their acceptance and approval. It was very important to him, and he did his best to act in a way that would earn him this acceptance.

This is interesting to me, because it was something different for the show, although there have been hints and aspects of it before. Jack is, as AU Bobby said, a deadly monster who can't tell right from wrong, and the Winchesters have dedicated their lives to eradicating monsters like this as a danger to humanity. But Jack was a monster who moved into their house and became attached to them and looked up to them and wanted them to care for him. He was a monster who wanted to become a Winchester.

But in spite of this intriguing idea, Jack as a character never really worked for me. Mainly because with the way that the story of Jack was told, it was not about our heroes, the Winchesters, trying to deal with this situation and being affected by it.  Instead, Jack is the focus and the center of the show, and the main characters of the show have become side characters in the story of Jack's journey. And that's where the show has lost me.

It's like when you read a Supernatural fanfic story, and it ends up actually being all about an original character the author has inserted. It makes me feel cheated. If the author wanted to write a story about their own character, they should have just done that, and not tried to trick me into reading it by pretending it is about the Winchesters.