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S02.E07: Les Ecorches

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1 hour ago, SevenCostanza said:

Quick question when we saw Teddy floating in the water in the first episode wasn't he still dressed in his western outfit? 

Yes I think he was but that just means that at some point between the battle in the Mesa we saw tonight (when the Cradle was blown up) and the discovery of all the bodies in the water (which we've already seen happen but that is actually set a week AFTER the cradle destruction) Teddy changes back in to "Westworld" clothes.  The question is why?  That ballistic armor vest seems like a good thing to hang on to.  My theory is that Teddy isn't dead.  A lot of those 'bots in the water were blanks (their data cores had never been touched) so I think Dolores' team planted the corpses using spare bodies with no minds and then planted Teddy among the dead to infiltrate the Mesa.  I refuse to believe that EvilTeddy is dead -- even in the most future timeline.  I think he's playing possum and all hell's gonna break loose when he wakes up.  (Assuming they don't cut his brain out first.)

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Great episode.  It has everything.  Answers, great acting, action, characters interacting...I was definitely very satisfied.

Anthony Hopkins returned was definitely the highlight and while the show has had a great second season so far, his addition certainly adds even more to it.  I only hope Bernard is able to get some kind of revenge on him after all the hell he's putting him through.

And on Charlotte too.  Good lord, I didn't think anything would make me root for Dolores.  Dolores threatening to lobotomize Charlotte though made me root for her hard.  At least Dolores has an excuse for her behavior...Charlotte is just an absolutely nasty human being.

Also glad that William isn't dead.  He's far too interesting to lose.  I would assume he's a host though with his survival at the end.

One thing that annoyed me...stupid mercenaries.  Yes, let's not shoot the murderous host and get so close to her that she can kill me.  Good lord, between that and the other mercenary not immediately putting down Bernard, the IQ points on these guys are almost non-existent. 

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1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

To be fair to the security guards, Season One (the scene with Ford and William with Teddy present) showed that the hosts are much faster, stronger and more coordinated than any human could hope to be in order to be able to perform their "protect the guests" from accidents function. They just have those skills dialed way back in order to perform their normal loops including dying on cue. We further see evidence of this when Bernard hacks the one host and cranks the one host up to maximum accuracy and reflexes and he proceeds to quickshot his way through a horde of his fellow hosts.

Delores clearly has her safeties off as she took a shoulder and a gut shot with barely a flinch (the latter of which would start a normal host into its "bleed out and die" routine). My hunch is that Delores entire group is running well above normal human strength, reflexes and accuracy which is why they can mow through ordinary human security so easily (even though they did take some losses in the process).

Dolores inherited the bots from the Wyatt storylines.  They were programmed to obey Wyatt / Dolores and not feel pain

The problem was not the strengths of the bots, it was the Delos team's failure to adhere to basic strategy that was bothering me.  Last season the security team did not know that hosts turned deadly so they treated them like valuable assets, very careful not to destroy them.  What's the excuse this season?  They knew the bots were deadly killing machines, yet they still proceeded like it was amateur hours.

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8 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

That ballistic armor vest seems like a good thing to hang on to.

Why? They did not seem to offer any protection to the ones wearing them.  Both Delos army and bots that wear them still went down when shot :D  Those vests were indeed like Stornmtroopers armors :D :D :D

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15 minutes ago, benteen said:

 

One thing that annoyed me...stupid mercenaries.  Yes, let's not shoot the murderous host and get so close to her that she can kill me.  Good lord, between that and the other mercenary not immediately putting down Bernard, the IQ points on these guys are almost non-existent. 

 

9 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

 

The problem was not the strengths of the bots, it was the Delos team's failure to adhere to basic strategy that was bothering me.  Last season the security team did not know that hosts turned deadly so they treated them like valuable assets, very careful not to destroy them.  What's the excuse this season?  They knew the bots were deadly killing machines, yet they still proceeded like it was amateur hours.

I am not going to argue any of these security teams are competent, for sure, but I wonder if we aren't supposed to see this in part as a continued assumption by the humans that the hosts are inherently not dangerous or autonomous. There has to be a lot of conditioning to see them as harmless, and the robot rebellion is still relatively recent. These guys are treating the hosts like malfunctioning equipment, rather than as people with autonomy and the ability to strategize/think independently. 

4 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Why? They did not seem to offer any protection to the ones wearing them.  Both Delos army and bots that wear them still went down when shot :D  Those vests were indeed like Stornmtroopers armors :D :D :D

I got nothing here, though. Snerk. 

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12 hours ago, SeanC said:

This episode makes a good case for the series being much more interesting whenever Anthony Hopkins is in it.

And Anthony Hopkins's presence made MiB feel superfluous to me.  I'd always seen MiB as an antagonist, but these last two episodes make me view him more as only a sad old man.  Why be afraid of him when you ought to be afraid of VR Ford!  Though I had previously been invested in MiB's storyline, I couldn't see a point for him anymore after the introduction of VR Ford.  Recently, the times MiB thinks he's being indirectly controlled by Ford, he doesn't actually appear to be (i.e. with Emily and then with Maeve and Anna), whereas we see the Ford/Bernard struggle directly.  However, when I commented to my husband that I noticed Emily wasn't in this episode at all, he suggested that perhaps the show will bring her back by having her come to save her dad.  Also, I do wonder if he might still be able to access the rapid healer for wounds that we saw used in previous episodes.

Edited by ReallySpecial
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13 hours ago, The Companion said:

She really does evoke a strong reaction, doesn't she. Her smirk and arrogance make her so hateable. She is unrepentant. I can't decide if we are leading to a satisfying death scene or a redemption. 

19 hours ago, numbnut said:

Ugh.  I can't wait for Charlotte to get killed off. Tessa Thompson's line readings are like nails on a chalkboard.  

20 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Tessa Thompson as Charlotte Hale continues to be major casting misstep in the show.  I find her totally unbelievable and every scene she's in I focus on how much I hate her.  The woman who played Theresa Cullen in Season 1 would have been a much better choice as Hale.  When Dolores was coming at her with the bone saw saying "An eye for an eye..... but the other parts first" I was SO hopeful.  Then I realized that it's only Day 7 and we know Hale makes it to Day 14.

 

Yes to all of these comments on Charlotte. This character is a failure for the show. I understand that she is surrounded by tremendous talent in Hopkins, Harris, Wright and Newton but Thompson looks particularly one-note. I get pulled out of every scene that she is in. Her facial expressions and line readings are amateurish. To be fair, the writing hasn't done her any favors. She offers nothing but smug condescension in every scene. Was there no other way to portray a young, powerful, female corporate executive? 

Alternatively...

12 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

I feel like Lee is the one on the redemption train. They've made Charlotte so overtly awful  - at the same that people like Lee and Stubbs are getting more sympathetic nuance - that I can't see any route forward for her other than a big dramatic, fist-pump finale death.

13 hours ago, Haleth said:

I never thought I'd like either Lee or Stubbs, but both have really grown as characters.  

Dolores isn't my favorite (although her scenes with Peter were so well done) but I was shouting at her to shoot Charlotte.  

I understand that part of the narrative is to demonstrate the varied and complex reactions of humans to the hosts based largely on their roles in the park/Delos (security, writer, management, etc). Last year, I found Lee to be insufferable. Now he has been given a story line and a dose of humility and humanity. I've always viewed Stubbs and Elsie as somewhat of the viewers' eyes and ears in the park. Charlotte has been written and portrayed without nuance or growth for nearly two seasons. For me, there is nothing that can be done to salvage this character.

I agree about the complete ineptness of the security team. It gets a bit boring when - as a viewer - you know that the hosts will kill all of them in every encounter. The body count continues to rise in a ridiculous ways.

I don't think that MIB is a host and, therefore, I will be surprised if he survives this season...and that will make me sad because I love Ed Harris. His journey has to lead to "something" by the end of this season and I think that it has to conclude. Don't know how it gets pushed into S3. At some point, the dead - whether host or human - have to remain dead otherwise the narrative is 100% unreliable.

I enjoyed this episode because our main characters crossed paths. Those are the interactions that I want to witness. When everyone is off riding around in different directions, it can become tedious. And thank goodness that Hopkins is back!

Edited by Ellaria Sand
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7 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I am not going to argue any of these security teams are competent, for sure, but I wonder if we aren't supposed to see this in part as a continued assumption by the humans that the hosts are inherently not dangerous or autonomous. There has to be a lot of conditioning to see them as harmless, and the robot rebellion is still relatively recent. These guys are treating the hosts like malfunctioning equipment, rather than as people with autonomy and the ability to strategize/think independently. 

We were shown that Delos would overpay for everything, so they most likely overpaid to secure their most valuable assets as well.  These security teams were supposed to be the best money can buy.  Again, like I said, I would grant benefit of doubts to the Westworld security team (ie the first responders in season 1).  However, the team lead by captain Mustache already knew they bots were extremely dangerous and should have not underestimate the threats.

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For all that JJ Abrams and company have said that they're trying to make the timelines straightforward this season, they're not really doing a good job of it. I've usually been able to figure out which is which as I'm watching, but having Charlotte in the lab in two different timelines in this episode got really confusing to me. I never thought I would praise How to Get Away With Murder, but Westworld's producers/directors/crew could learn a thing or two from them about how you use different lighting and color palettes to show that you're in a different location from where you just were.

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7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I don't think that MIB is a host and, therefore, I will be surprised if he survives this season...and that will make me sad because I love Ed Harris. His journey has to lead to "something" by the end of this season and I think that it has to conclude. Don't know how it gets pushed into S3. At some point, the dead - whether host or human - have to remain dead otherwise the narrative in 100% unreliable.

I no longer think he is 100% bot, otherwise Maeve would have been able to easily "sense" him.  However, MiB is probably half bot, kind of like Million Dollars Man.  I just do not see how he could survive those shots, unless some parts of him are robotic.  Maybe in the outside world the tech is so advanced, it is common to replace the lower body with robotic parts when the old knees and hips start to stop working as they used to.

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12 hours ago, Xantar said:

So when does Teddy end up dead and floating along a bunch of other hosts? Was that a false memory? I'm so confused about the timeline. 

 

I think those were back up bodies that could have been brought into action when a current one is damaged beyond repair. 

Boy, the MIB really is resilient, isn't he?   It better turn out that he was secretly replaced by a host, otherwise he should be a member of the Avengers.

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40 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

We were shown that Delos would overpay for everything, so they most likely overpaid to secure their most valuable assets as well.  These security teams were supposed to be the best money can buy.  Again, like I said, I would grant benefit of doubts to the Westworld security team (ie the first responders in season 1).  However, the team lead by captain Mustache already knew they bots were extremely dangerous and should have not underestimate the threats.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I still think there could be some assumptions in effect here. Even if they are told the robots are malfunctioning and dangerous, they still wouldn't necessarily expect tactics. They don't have problems killing the robots they believe present a threat, but I don't think they expected something like an ambush from what they see as malfunctioning equipment. They expect unthinking robots shooting at everyone, not self-aware tactical engagements. They continue to treat the hosts as equipment, and therefore they continue to underestimate the level of critical thinking the hosts are capable of. Basically, they have a lot less information to go from than we do, as the viewers, and I don't think their actions are particularly out of the realm of possibility except for talking to a hot host instead of taking her down (although, that also could be the same assumption that the host is either going to be unthinkingly shooting everything that moves or sticking to its original programming). We know they eventually get to the shoot on sight, ask questions later mentality, but at the train point in the timeline, there is reason to believe they are not yet there.

ETA: I think that is some of the progression we are getting as well. The difference between the way hosts were treated on the beach and the way they were treated in this episode indicates a change in the way the security team sees them. 

Edited by The Companion
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More questions about the timelines and security teams.  In the first episode we saw Strand's team on what appeared to be the morning after the massacre at Escalante.  But Coughlin's team came and was wiped out before Strand's team arrived.  So that means the very first scene where Bernard wakes up on the beach was not right after the Delos party.  So why was he unconscious on the beach?

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Just now, Haleth said:

More questions about the timelines and security teams.  In the first episode we saw Strand's team on what appeared to be the morning after the massacre at Escalante.  But Coughlin's team came and was wiped out before Strand's team arrived.  So that means the very first scene where Bernard wakes up on the beach was not right after the Delos party.  So why was he unconscious on the beach?

We don't yet know WHY he was unconscious. But that scene was around 2 weeks after the gala.

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13 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

This is LOST 2.0.

Amen to that!

13 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Wow, hate that I don't remember her name but the host that took out the Cradle went out like a boss. Using her base programming to distract the guy to get the job done? Bravo.

That was Angela, right?  The Hottest Host of them all!  Too bad she's now toast.

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For someone who was keen to protect her own skin and left Abernathy and Bernard in order to escape alone on horseback in Westworld, Charlotte Hale seemed determined not to flee when Dolores's arrival was imminent in the mesa.  What gives?  Sometimes she's willing to risk her life for the data/encryption key, and sometimes she's not?  Did she think it would be easy to find Abernathy again in the first case, but she feared losing the data completely if she left in the latter case?  Most of the time she seems smug, but occasionally she does seem afraid.  I'm not sure I understand what is really driving her.  Why doesn't she try to high tail it out of there, like Stubbs wants to do?  Her job doesn't seem like one where she's been trained to run toward danger, like first responders, law enforcement, or military.  What's in it for her to follow Delos's orders?  Keeping her job?  Getting a promotion?  Selling the tech herself on the open market?

I was very glad to see the interaction between Maeve and Dolores.  (Can I go on a small mini-rant here?  I've seen a lot of people in the forum misspell Dolores as "Delores."  The main reason why that bugs me is because Dolores is actually a Latin (also Spanish) name, the plural form of dolor, which translates to "sorrows" in English.  It's a fitting name for her character, in my mind.  It would be one thing if the writers spelled her name as "Delores," but they don't, according to IMDb.  Okay, end of rant!)  I said last episode that everyone is subservient to Dolores's desires, and that now includes Clementine, Angela, and Peter Abernathy.  Dolores, in her bid to survive, will sacrifice anyone to achieve that end.  Has she not stopped to consider that it's very lonely at the end of that road?

There was some fine acting in this episode, especially from Lawrence as he regains his memories, Dolores as she interacts with her father, and Maeve's screams as she sees her worst fears materialize with absolutely nothing she can do to stop it.

However, I was left cold by the stylized violence on screen during the Beethoven audio.  It looked as if it were supposed to resemble a ballet, with the sparks from the gunshots like celebratory fireworks.  Despite having watched every episode, I find I am not inured to the violence on this show, and for otherwise extremely well-done scenes between Hopkins and Wright, I think this one could have been done better.

Also, let me add my name to the list of those who want to nominate Jeffrey Wright for an Emmy.  I didn't mention him earlier because he deserves acknowledgement all on his own.  What a performance!

Edited by ReallySpecial
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12 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I no longer think he is 100% bot, otherwise Maeve would have been able to easily "sense" him.  However, MiB is probably half bot, kind of like Million Dollars Man.  I just do not see how he could survive those shots, unless some parts of him are robotic.  Maybe in the outside world the tech is so advanced, it is common to replace the lower body with robotic parts when the old knees and hips start to stop working as they used to.

This is pretty much where I am. I think that William is some kind of human/host hybrid and am guessing that he "turned" after being shot and killed at the gala. Just considering how many times William has been shot this season and survived like it was nothing--to me the simplest explanation is that he is a host of some kind. My guess is that he's the most advanced one yet and that's why Maeve isn't able to tell. I'm not even sure that William is aware yet. 

Not only do we have the line where William says in the first episode that he "feels like he just arrived" but we have the flashbacks about his wife that are very reminiscent to the style of Bernard's flashbacks from last season. William didn't have those flashbacks last season. He thought about these issues and memories but he didn't flashback to an actual scene. To me it felt like a backstory.

Then we have William having inaccurate memories with his daughter to the point where she looks at him strangely. She doesn't act like she's used to him not remembering things when it comes to his family. To me it came across like she was surprised that he didn't remember. 

Then I think about how Ford seems to have built a game just for William. Dolores played a game so that she could achieve sentience and agency. I feel like something similar is going on with William and that's why he's continuing to play the game despite the risks. It's a stronger pull for him than staying with his daughter to help make sure that she's going to be okay in a place where the rules have completely changed. 

Honestly I've been loving this season. I thought this was one of the most exciting episodes in the run of the series so far. It feels like anything can happen and that nobody is 100% safe save for maybe Dolores. (I can't see her buying it until the end.)

Edited by Avaleigh · Reason: No idea how I crossed my post out lol.
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Is it safe to assume that Maeve can't control "woke" hosts? And is this also why the Ghost Nation tribe cannot be controlled by her, either?

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2 hours ago, Paws said:

Are we done seeing Jimmy Simpson? If so, yay, because I’ve never bought into him as a younger Ed Harris.

 I agree. Just look at the young Ed Harris in The Right Stuff. Very handsome (still is). Jimmy is a good actor but not handsome at all.

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Angela seducing the security guy reminded me of one of those old Bugs Bunny cartoons where Bugs distracts Elmer Fudd by putting on a dress and batting his eyelashes at him. The guy had about as much dignity. “Ohhhhh robot boobs! This seems legit!” 

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4 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Am I reading you wrong, or are you like me, where this show is getting more than a little side eye? I feel like I'm about to break up with this show. I loved it when there was some actual WestWorld action in it. To co-opt a phrase, this show now looks less like a horse and more like a camel. I'm so tired of these interactions where people ALMOST say stuff and then gunfire breaks out. This show had a LOT of potential and now it's painted itself right into this corner that I really can't see a way out of, namely, WTF is season 3 going to be? I think this show should have built a little more to this crap this season and given us a lot more insight into what the parks were really like. 

I am saying I am sick and tired of every single episode being all about gun violence and slaughter and carnage. And I agree with you 100%. There has been no character development, very little stories involving the characters, and no storylines about guests in the parks because it was impossible to do that because the hosts all went rogue. The writers could have introduced some interesting guests with backstories. 

I think this season was a total waste of time. For me, it is really awful and makes no sense and the writers are waiting until the final episode to give us some big "reveal." But who cares.... it's all too little, too late. The writers were obsessed with the hosts' revolution but along the way the show got lost and became ABC's LOST.

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12 hours ago, saoirse said:

The music in my head when Dolores was escorted in - Darth Vader's theme.

The scene between Bernard and Robert reminded me of Darth Vader's entreaty to Luke to join him in the dark side:

"Don’t make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

I think Westworld owes Star Wars some props.

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36 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The guy had about as much dignity. “Ohhhhh robot boobs! This seems legit!” 

Yeah, I just don't know how he saw that working out, in his own head.

"Hmmm!  She was trying to shoot me, so I'll just bawl it, and robotic, vaginal secateurs be damned!"

22 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

...and the writers are waiting until the final episode to give us some big "reveal."

I agree, but if they're not careful, there won't be any viewers left to see it!

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This show took a left hand turn somewhere and is now as hopelessly lost as I am. They had a year and half to get this thing out, but last night felt like a rush job.

-keystone cops (the bullet proof vests are obviously just not)

-cradle death by hormones

-how many times do people accidentally meet in a seemingly vast place?

-how is the mesa even laid out? There seems to be just one glassed in room after another with no labels to know where the hell you are.

Seeing Ford in the simulation just made me long for season one.  I'm still hanging in there, but wtf show?

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15 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

This show could have been great with a focus on guests experiences in the Westworld, Shogun, or Ghost Nation theme parks

Um, no thanks. This isn't the 70's or 80's. You really think people would watch a Love Boat version of this??

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4 hours ago, benteen said:

Also glad that William isn't dead.  He's far too interesting to lose.  I would assume he's a host though with his survival at the end.

My theory is, due to the wonkiness of the time-line presentation, William had his encounter with Maeve, et al, just after Ford's ghost left the cradle, making the bullets "harmless" again. Otherwise he would have been a-goner. I figure that Sylvester and Felix got back to the Mesa on the one of the dune buggies while the hosts were blown to smithereens.

The back and forth between brilliance and idiot-plotting was disconcerting to say the least.

Edited by Notwisconsin
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27 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

-how is the mesa even laid out? There seems to be just one glassed in room after another with no labels to know where the hell you are.

We know this in season 1 when Maeve got a tour of the building.  It consists of glass walled rooms and very distinct looking staircases :D 

2 hours ago, zobot81 said:

Is it safe to assume that Maeve can't control "woke" hosts? And is this also why the Ghost Nation tribe cannot be controlled by her, either?

I am assuming Maeve can control any host, woke or not.  She just did not force her will on woke hosts out of respect of the individual's free will.  In ShogunWorld, Maeve started to use her mind tricks to change Akane's mind about something but Akane asked her to stop and Maeve backed down.  

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I’m so confused by this show that I have to come here and watch YouTube explaination clips just to process an episode.  Last season, I was fine with the multiple timelines but this season it is just annoying and tedious. Feels like a chore to watch.  

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I had that same reaction watching last night.  How many times are we going to watch Dolores and her army of vengeance march into another area of the complex and kill everyone there?  It's like reading Blood Meridian.  Or Slim Pickens' lines in Blazing Saddles about he and his boys riding into town, a hootin' and a hollerin' and shootin' everything that they see.  I need some plot.  I need to know why somethings are important.

If MIB isn't a host, then why does he keep going in loops?  Why did he show up at Maeve's old cabin?  If he is truly sentient, shouldn't he be finding out different things?  Maeve and her band made it to another park.  He must have crossed every inch of Westworld if he's been doing this for 30 years.  Why?  What is he looking for?  

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At some point, the dead - whether host or human - have to remain dead otherwise the narrative in 100% unreliable.

That's sort of the inherent flaw in the show. I would be stunned if this is how William's story ends, or if this is how Maeve's story ends. Both were just stopped dead in their tracks without a resolution for either. On the other hand . . . if William does in fact somehow survive all those direct hits, then there's really no emotional impact to someone getting shot or "dying." You can just shrug your shoulders and say "no big deal." They sew 'em back up and brink 'em back to life. 

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 You really think people would watch a Love Boat version of this??

I would watch the shit out of that. Let's see . . . Delores would be cruise director, Teddy would be ship's purser, Bernard, of course, the bartender . . . .

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54 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

l any host, woke or not.  She just did not force her will on woke hosts out of respect of the individual's free will.  In ShogunWorld, Maeve started to use her mind tricks to change Akane's mind about something but Akane asked her to stop and Maeve backed down.  

But doesn't MIB's homeboy (Laurence, I think) -- doesn't he fully resist being mind controlled?  I vaguely remember Maeve's face when she is unable to "plug in" -- she looks incredulous.   Or is she merely surprised by his resistance?

I don't get it.

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1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

Um, no thanks. This isn't the 70's or 80's. You really think people would watch a Love Boat version of this??

Why would it have to be a "Love Boat" version? It could be a Desperate Housewives version, a Sopranos version, a Mad Men version, a Six Feet Under version, a True Blood version, a The Shield version, or a version of any TV show where guests are placed into that world and have to struggle to live and survive. 

The possibilities are endless... anything but this relentless shooting and gun violence would be  relief. We get it: the hosts have engaged in a revolution. But I think it would have been so much better to step away from that revolution and show guests living in an experience that would be interesting and filled with adventure as we see how they manage the roadblocks the hosts create. 

Living in any one of those parks, meeting people, developing relationships, and struggling to survive is to me better than watching some Twilight Zone version of Gunsmoke where guns and gun violence is predominantly the content of each and every episode so far. I see enough of that on the news every day. 

29 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I would watch the shit out of that. Let's see . . . Delores would be cruise director, Teddy would be ship's purser, Bernard, of course, the bartender . . . .

I never suggested that. 

Edited by DakotaLavender
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1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

My theory is, due to the wonkiness of the time-line presentation, William had his encounter with Maeve, et al, just after Ford's ghost left the cradle, making the bullets "harmless" again.

That's possible, though I thought I saw blood splatter on the wall behind him when the first guy shot him.  Then again, there is so much blood every episode that it tends to blur together.

Narratively that would explain how he survived, but it'd make me go all Cathy Bates in Misery on it.  "He didn't get out of the cockadoody car!"   It's such a cheat to end one episode with a mortal peril cliff-hanger like that only to pick it up in the next episode with William merely slightly bruised by suddenly ineffective bullets.  It would also invite further scrutiny of just how the damn bullets are supposed to work.  The mechanics for bullets that blow a host's face off but only sting a guest can't be as readily dismissed when those mechanics become a plot point.

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The possibilities are endless... anything but this relentless shooting and gun violence would be  relief. We get it: the hosts have engaged in a revolution. But I think it would have been so much better to step away from that revolution and show guests living in an experience that would be interesting and filled with adventure as we see how they manage the roadblocks the hosts create. 

The premise of this show has some limitations going forward: since everyone is confined to this park (thus far) there's only so much this "revolution" can accomplish. Once all the humans are dead, it's just  . . .  Island of the Robots. Further, there don't seem to be many sympathetic human characters left, if ever there were any. At what point is this just a show about robots? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but what does it have to do with "Westworld," inherently?

I agree the show kind of missed the boat in exploring the human experience at this place. But from the outset the show seemed far more interested in doing a story about robots who think they are human, which is something I complained about during the first season. The only reason to program robots to think they're human is to do a TV show about robots who think they're humans. It doesn't make any functional sense and you're just creating a morale dilemma that doesn't need to exist. 

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32 minutes ago, mac123x said:

That's possible, though I thought I saw blood splatter on the wall behind him when the first guy shot him.  Then again, there is so much blood every episode that it tends to blur together.

Narratively that would explain how he survived, but it'd make me go all Cathy Bates in Misery on it.  "He didn't get out of the cockadoody car!"   It's such a cheat to end one episode with a mortal peril cliff-hanger like that only to pick it up in the next episode with William merely slightly bruised by suddenly ineffective bullets.  It would also invite further scrutiny of just how the damn bullets are supposed to work.  The mechanics for bullets that blow a host's face off but only sting a guest can't be as readily dismissed when those mechanics become a plot point.

All of this whole post.

I keep wondering if I'm going too deep, by trying to sort things out.  Then I realize, I don't wanna suspend my disbelief THAT much...how do the bullets work? I don't really care until they use the bullets so often in each episode, on who knows which kind of characters -- hosts?  guests?  both?  I mean, let's not dismiss all of it as incomprehensible tech, if the creators bothered to try to explain the tech (however long ago).  Now that same tech is undermining the integrity of the story.  So no, we can't just keep dismissing the bullets as a thingy we don't understand so don't worry about it.  I totally agree with you, here.

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4 hours ago, ReallySpecial said:

 I said last episode that everyone is subservient to Dolores's desires, and that now includes Clementine, Angela, and Peter Abernathy.  Dolores, in her bid to survive, will sacrifice anyone to achieve that end.  Has she not stopped to consider that it's very lonely at the end of that road?

Why are you assuming Dolores (btw, thank you for the insight on the origin/meaning of the name!) plans to survive the uprising? I think Dolores believes her cause is worth more than any individual life, but not necessarily that her life is more valuable than the cause.

As for the rest of the episode:

1) I really enjoyed it - I finally feel like the narrative is progressing;

2) I wanted Dolores to hurt Hale SO badly. I loved the menace/anger/fury Dolores directed at Hale;

3) R.I.P. Clementine and Angela (??). I wanted you to live, but you went out like bosses; and 

4) I really need Dolores and Maeve to interact more - their two brief interactions have been so charged and riveting.

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If you took the ball thingy out of say, Lawrence's head, and put it in one of those 'virgin bots' would that bot be Lawrence?

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18 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

This show could have been great with a focus on guests experiences in the Westworld, Shogun, or Ghost Nation theme parks but instead it morphed into hosts gone wild within constant blood baths, which was the plot of the film. 

 Tonight's episode was the usual confusing slaughter and carnage mixed with moments of allegory and philosophical enlightenment. And add to that, the jumbled timelines and just where is all this going? 

I would say it is headed to a final episode that is a huge cliffhanger and we will have to wait until the fall of 2019 to hope for answers and get more questions than answers in season 3. This is LOST 2.0. 

i have no idea what i am watching. are there actually people out there that can follow all of this? are they all geniuses? do you have to be a technology nerd?  i'm not stupid but this show makes me think i am. i'm only watching for a few scenes. i don't know where i am one minute to the next , are we in the future, the past, someones memories, did it really happen? what....the.....fuck....i'm so frustrated. 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

That's sort of the inherent flaw in the show. I would be stunned if this is how William's story ends, or if this is how Maeve's story ends. Both were just stopped dead in their tracks without a resolution for either. On the other hand . . . if William does in fact somehow survive all those direct hits, then there's really no emotional impact to someone getting shot or "dying." You can just shrug your shoulders and say "no big deal." They sew 'em back up and brink 'em back to life. 

I would watch the shit out of that. Let's see . . . Delores would be cruise director, Teddy would be ship's purser, Bernard, of course, the bartender . . . .

at least i might be able to understand a love boat version!

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6 hours ago, djlynch said:

For all that JJ Abrams and company have said that they're trying to make the timelines straightforward this season, they're not really doing a good job of it. I've usually been able to figure out which is which as I'm watching, but having Charlotte in the lab in two different timelines in this episode got really confusing to me. I never thought I would praise How to Get Away With Murder, but Westworld's producers/directors/crew could learn a thing or two from them about how you use different lighting and color palettes to show that you're in a different location from where you just were.

what?!! straightforward? they don't know the meaning of the word. my head spins so badly from going back and forth when i watch this show, i feel like barfing. 

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12 hours ago, Haleth said:

I really need someone to spell out the Bernard timeline.  I know Bernard and Elsie happened days ago, but the scenes with Charlotte and Strand?  That's all still pretty linear, right?  They picked Bernard up off the beach in the first episode, found the floaters (including poor dead Ted), and went back to the mesa for?  It's not until now that they discover all the duplicate Bernards, yes?  But they're still trying to find Abernathy's brain bulb that was taken away by Dolores days ago.  So the decision to go to sector whatever is the most current thing in the show.  We haven't seen anything that happens after this?

The Strand/Charlotte timeline is chronically the latest one we have been shown so far and yes, that is the latest with the brain bulb.

I do wonder if Bernard has the key since he was briefly hooked up to Abernathy in an earlier episode.

 

10 hours ago, ReallySpecial said:

And Anthony Hopkins's presence made MiB feel superfluous to me.  I'd always seen MiB as an antagonist, but these last two episodes make me view him more as only a sad old man.  Why be afraid of him when you ought to be afraid of VR Ford!  Though I had previously been invested in MiB's storyline, I couldn't see a point for him anymore after the introduction of VR Ford.  Recently, the times MiB thinks he's being indirectly controlled by Ford, he doesn't actually appear to be (i.e. with Emily and then with Maeve and Anna), whereas we see the Ford/Bernard struggle directly.  However, when I commented to my husband that I noticed Emily wasn't in this episode at all, he suggested that perhaps the show will bring her back by having her come to save her dad.  Also, I do wonder if he might still be able to access the rapid healer for wounds that we saw used in previous episodes.

 

 

MiB has been given an odd redemption arc this season so he is not shown as a complete antagonist. I've always thought Ford was the more villainous and dark character. In this episode alone, he is shown hijacking a host that he claims has free will and choice yet he makes him kill security guards. 

MiB is a rather sad character though. The level of narcissism that he has in WW is unreal. In S1, he plays the game, but he is told that the maze game was never meant for him. It was always for Dolores. In the last two episodes, he thinks Emily is a host meant to distract him and he thinks Maeve (the most powerful host so far) is also something Ford has used to distract him. I find it interesting that Maeve in her own PTSD and vengeance is accused of being a chess piece in this game. 

I am not necessarily a proponent of William is a host, but he's been shown to have a faulty memory (Emily and the elephants story) and an uncanny knack in surviving.

 

8 hours ago, zobot81 said:

Is it safe to assume that Maeve can't control "woke" hosts? And is this also why the Ghost Nation tribe cannot be controlled by her, either?

I've read that hosts' programming and scripts are voices in their head, but when they become woke or closer to woke, they realize the voice in their head was their own all alone (see Dolores S1). Lawrence didn't even realize it yet but his journey with William probably did make him more self-aware in the longer term. Maeve's power seems to be using the mesh network to mess up other hosts' internal voices with her voice; however, if a host has become use to their own voice (even if they don't realize it), they can fairly easily push Maeve's voice out. 

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The notion that replicating consciousness is the same as HAVING it is silly. If they aren't just replicating but ACTUALLY TRANSFERRING they need to make that clear, otherwise a person is only "immortal" to others, not to him or herself. This is so obvious it's preposterous the Westworld writers don't seem to have noticed it. It's like the play "Marjorie Prime."The recapper is right, the market for these clones would be OTHER people. 

 

Also, if MiB is NOT some kind of host and yet survived all those shots I call BS and manipulation.

Thank god I don't even try to figure out when things were happening. I just ride along for the fun of it.

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8 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Why? They did not seem to offer any protection to the ones wearing them.  Both Delos army and bots that wear them still went down when shot :D  Those vests were indeed like Stornmtroopers armors :D :D :D

Not only are their tactical vests not bulletproof, they light up in the dark when hostiles are nearby.  

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2 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

they light up in the dark when hostiles are nearby.  

That's supposed to be a good thing!  When your vest lights up like a christmas tree, it's to let you know that the baddies hiding in the dark are about to blow your stupid ass into another time-zone!

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26 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

The notion that replicating consciousness is the same as HAVING it is silly. If they aren't just replicating but ACTUALLY TRANSFERRING they need to make that clear, otherwise a person is only "immortal" to others, not to him or herself. This is so obvious it's preposterous the Westworld writers don't seem to have noticed it. It's like the play "Marjorie Prime."The recapper is right, the market for these clones would be OTHER people.

The answer for an evil corporation, of course, is to make it a destructive process. Delosbot didn't know he wasnt original and didn't seem to have much concern about being the same guy when he was ready to head out. You tell a person, ok we are going to transfer you now and kill them. Wake up their bot and tell them they have been transferred. Nobody will be around who has a complaint.

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8 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I no longer think he is 100% bot, otherwise Maeve would have been able to easily "sense" him.  However, MiB is probably half bot, kind of like Million Dollars Man.  I just do not see how he could survive those shots, unless some parts of him are robotic.  Maybe in the outside world the tech is so advanced, it is common to replace the lower body with robotic parts when the old knees and hips start to stop working as they used to.

MIB may have "bionic" parts but I still believe that he is human. I think that it is important that humans are not removed from the narrative, especially MIB because he has been involved with this park and its nefarious projects.

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That's sort of the inherent flaw in the show. I would be stunned if this is how William's story ends, or if this is how Maeve's story ends. Both were just stopped dead in their tracks without a resolution for either. On the other hand . . . if William does in fact somehow survive all those direct hits, then there's really no emotional impact to someone getting shot or "dying." You can just shrug your shoulders and say "no big deal." They sew 'em back up and brink 'em back to life. 

Yes. If no one ever truly dies then the risk/reward scenarios are meaningless. Despite Delos' slogan, there has to be consequences. Death can't only happen to nameless hosts and security forces. It has to happen to "awake" hosts and humans. There has to be finality to something.

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The premise of this show has some limitations going forward: since everyone is confined to this park (thus far) there's only so much this "revolution" can accomplish. Once all the humans are dead, it's just  . . .  Island of the Robots. 

At some point, we have to see the outside world in the present timeline. Keeping this story confined to the parks is fine for two seasons but it can't continue indefinitely. This season is almost over and we are still only two weeks removed from Ford's death. Since we are getting a S3, I imagine that the story will need to expand. Hundreds of people have died. The Delos PR machine will need to whip up some grand tale about a natural disaster or something to explain these deaths. How long can Charlotte remain in the park?

Edited by Ellaria Sand
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8 hours ago, The Companion said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but I still think there could be some assumptions in effect here. Even if they are told the robots are malfunctioning and dangerous, they still wouldn't necessarily expect tactics. They don't have problems killing the robots they believe present a threat, but I don't think they expected something like an ambush from what they see as malfunctioning equipment. They expect unthinking robots shooting at everyone, not self-aware tactical engagements. They continue to treat the hosts as equipment, and therefore they continue to underestimate the level of critical thinking the hosts are capable of. Basically, they have a lot less information to go from than we do, as the viewers, and I don't think their actions are particularly out of the realm of possibility except for talking to a hot host instead of taking her down (although, that also could be the same assumption that the host is either going to be unthinkingly shooting everything that moves or sticking to its original programming). We know they eventually get to the shoot on sight, ask questions later mentality, but at the train point in the timeline, there is reason to believe they are not yet there.

ETA: I think that is some of the progression we are getting as well. The difference between the way hosts were treated on the beach and the way they were treated in this episode indicates a change in the way the security team sees them. 

Another factor to consider: The security teams' backgrounds are likely police and/or Western military. Criminals aren't much of  tactical challenge, and Western soldiers haven't had to fight an enemy with comparable weapons/training since Viet Nam, and arguably since World War II. They have no experience of fighting a competent opponent.

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20 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Okaaaay I'm gonna have to watch that again to figure out the timeline.  So I'll just offer up this one immediate reaction:  Evil Teddy is HAWT.

I am so fucking annoyed by the time jumping. It serves no purpose. In season 1 it was very distinct time periods and it gave us a lot of backgrund information in an organic fashion, through Dolores's glitching. Here they are just scrambeling a story that happened over a few days, just to confuse the audience in an attempt to seem artsy. An attempt that failed miserably.

Tell a coherent story from beginning to end, god damn it. That can't be that hard can it? I was already annoyed at the "X hours/days/weeks earlier"-trend we had a few years ago. Where everybody and their mother thought it was a great idea to show the end in the beginning. That can work, but more often than not it doesn't. This Westworld time-scrambeling bullshit better not catch on as well.

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2 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Western soldiers haven't had to fight an enemy with comparable weapons/training since Viet Nam, and arguably since World War II. They have no experience of fighting a competent opponent.

I don't think we can count on this, though it is an explanation for incompetence. This show takes place in the future, we don't know what has happened in the world in the very many years between now and then.

I had thought of this when Elsie said she wanted to go back to dental school (to be a dentist, I thought, not a hygienist) if they are so close to placing consciousness into hosts, and have made great strides in curing diseases, then why would dentists still be needed. Surely they would have come up with -something- to preserve our teeth.

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51 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

How long can Charlotte remain in the park and not die?

Fixed it for you.
 

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I am so fucking annoyed by the time jumping. It serves no purpose. In season 1 it was very distinct time periods and it gave us a lot of backgrund information in an organic fashion, through Dolores's glitching. Here they are just scrambeling a story that happened over a few days, just to confuse the audience in an attempt to seem artsy. An attempt that failed miserably.

Tell a coherent story from beginning to end, god damn it. That can't be that hard can it? I was already annoyed at the "X hours/days/weeks earlier"-trend we had a few years ago. Where everybody and their mother thought it was a great idea to show the end in the beginning. That can work, but more often than not it doesn't. This Westworld time-scrambeling bullshit better not catch on as well.

 

Hah!  You want to watch a movie that does the whole time-jump business that serves no purpose except to confuse you?  See Dunkirk, by Jonathan Nolan's brother Christopher.  Seriously, their mother must have been frightened by a clock when she was pregnant.

Edited by Quilt Fairy
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