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All Seasons Discussion: We Must Continue The Work

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To start off this discussion, I'm going to highlight something I think the show has done very well, which I haven't seen remarked upon that much: They've seriously changed the direction of the entire narrative of the show, more than once, without anyone appearing to feel like they're getting whiplash.

At the start of the show, we had a mystery about a missing girl and about a possibly alien entity killing people. Then it turned into a political thriller about the manufacturing of a secret bioweapon, then it turned into a larger scale political thriller about corruption and warmongering.

All those storylines have been wrapped up, without the balance or feel of the show being disrupted (although losing Miller meant we said goodbye to his detective noir stuff). Yes, there are still elements of each of them in the show, but they no longer drive the narrative. The only ongoing, permanent storyline, really, is that of humanity looking for reasons to divide itself. And I like that as an over-arching theme, which has been applied to different narratives as the show has progressed.

We've seen Bobbie come in as a main character, with her own story about the lies of the military-industrial complex, we've seen Prax come in, with his story about a decent man trying to find his daughter. We've seen Anna, first as a conscience in the political world, now apparently as a scientist to help the show take the next step in its current story.

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@Danny Franks I agree.
I rewatched part of season one before and it's interesting how different the focus feels. You don't feel the shifts from episode to episode. (The only real shift I've felt so far is the one we just had, with the time jump and people scattering from the Roci.) I think another overarching theme is the  mystery of the protomolecule.

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16 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Not sure why that necessarily has/had to be an "either/or" decision. Also not sure why criticizing the perhaps temporary decline in Chrisjen's wardrobe (which has been a key and notable factor in her characterization) seems to be so problematic here. In the overall scheme of The Expanse things, it's probably a relatively minor issue for most viewers. Nevertheless, it happens to be an important one for me and my enjoyment of the show, and one I'm willing to keep commenting about on this forum.

 

Comment all you want to.  The way I saw the situation, there were three basic things that could have been done given the circumstance.  One, they show Bobbie and Chrisjen taking time out of their desperate escape to pack a huge trunk full of colorful outfits and drag it with them aboard the Razorback, which would have made Chrisjen look absurdly shallow and both of them look really stupid.  Two, just have Chrisjen shifting outfits without explanation which would cause various viewers to ask "Where the hell is she getting those outfits?  I didn't see anybody fetch along some huge fucking trunk full of them."  Which would make the show look really stupid.  Third, do what they did.

You're right.  Chrisjen's outfits are an important part of her characterization.  She enjoys them and they enhance her comfort and power.  So she's a bit vulnerable without them.  Part of this story was about taking Chrisjen out of her comfort zone and having her deal with some of the grittier realities.  She had to adapt to persuading Holden and the other to do what she needed instead of using her position to simply order it done.  And she had to do it without her cool outfits.

Edited by johntfs
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1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Part of this story was about taking Chrisjen out of her comfort zone and having her deal with some of the grittier realities. 

Ding-ding-ding!  IMHO they were giving Chrisjen a real taste of the belter perspective.  Remember she's done a long, slow 180° on them generally.

FWIW, I thought she looked pretty hawt in the white clingy space-ship coveralls.  Admittedly I can't recall what she was wearing this last ep as she did her public address.  Possibly since she's gone from a back-room player to head-of-state, she'll have to tone it down some.  Hopefully not too much.

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I've never before watched a book-show adaptation without having read the books first. This show is so phenomenal I want to see how it stands on it's own. So I'm gonna hold out on the reading as long as I can, unless I get to tempted in the off season. One fun thing with just watching the show is that all the little tid-bits of world building open up a lot of theorizing about the world (or maybe I should say worlds). Some personal theories I have:

  • I don't think all countries were united under the UN peacefully, those who didn't want to join was forced in. The US probably lead the unification, in coalition with some other countries. That's why the capital is in NYC. Also, I doubt the UN would score very well on a democracy index, the leaders seem to be very far away from the geneal concerns of everyday citizens. I suspect those Undocumented people mentioned have no voting rights. How many percentage of the population might they be?
  • I think the reason we see so little AI is that it's been banned, due to concerns about AI-inteligence getting too advanced. Some kinds of AI is allowed, like smart apartments or the ships doing certain things automatic, but any human imitations seemed to be off limits. This is why the crew finds it so weird that Alex talks to the ship. It's like a taboo, thinking of machines as people.

I don't think these are true because then I think I'd heard or read some hint of this from book readers or the creators. But in the show universe they could very well be true. I don't think we've had anything disproving them. Does anyone else have any theories?

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18 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I've never before watched a book-show adaptation without having read the books first. This show is so phenomenal I want to see how it stands on it's own. So I'm gonna hold out on the reading as long as I can, unless I get to tempted in the off season. One fun thing with just watching the show is that all the little tid-bits of world building open up a lot of theorizing about the world (or maybe I should say worlds). Some personal theories I have:

  • I don't think all countries were united under the UN peacefully, those who didn't want to join was forced in. The US probably lead the unification, in coalition with some other countries. That's why the capital is in NYC. Also, I doubt the UN would score very well on a democracy index, the leaders seem to be very far away from the geneal concerns of everyday citizens. I suspect those Undocumented people mentioned have no voting rights. How many percentage of the population might they be?

I can't recall the show really touching on politics at the citizen level at all, other than the glimpses of rioters a couple of episodes ago. So is the Secretary General chosen by a popular vote? Or are they appointed by the Security Council, or some other body, which would be more in the vein of the way China appoints its premiers today.

The idea of a single Earth government seems incomprehensible, I agree, because of the diversity in cultures, languages, economic circumstances and almost any other measure you'd care to choose. There would have to be a grand levelling of the playing field, or systemic oppression of billions, in order to keep a system like this stable for more than about ten minutes. It's one of the aspects of the show that I don't think really stands up to scrutiny, if you think about it too much.

And while I've read the books, I can't remember whether there's much information in them about the way politics on Earth is organised, other than with the UN in charge of the whole planet. I'm sure they've mentioned Universal Basic Income in the show, and that's one aspect I do remember very clearly from the books. It was the first time I'd heard of the concept, and just a few years later we're hearing about real trials of it, in one or two places around the world. The idea that secure basic income allows for taxation and investment, regardless of individual economic means, is really interesting. And it would go a long way to addressing the fears of automation in all fields of employment.

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5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I can't recall the show really touching on politics at the citizen level at all, other than the glimpses of rioters a couple of episodes ago. So is the Secretary General chosen by a popular vote? Or are they appointed by the Security Council, or some other body, which would be more in the vein of the way China appoints its premiers today.

The idea of a single Earth government seems incomprehensible, I agree, because of the diversity in cultures, languages, economic circumstances and almost any other measure you'd care to choose. There would have to be a grand levelling of the playing field, or systemic oppression of billions, in order to keep a system like this stable for more than about ten minutes. It's one of the aspects of the show that I don't think really stands up to scrutiny, if you think about it too much.

And while I've read the books, I can't remember whether there's much information in them about the way politics on Earth is organised, other than with the UN in charge of the whole planet. I'm sure they've mentioned Universal Basic Income in the show, and that's one aspect I do remember very clearly from the books. It was the first time I'd heard of the concept, and just a few years later we're hearing about real trials of it, in one or two places around the world. The idea that secure basic income allows for taxation and investment, regardless of individual economic means, is really interesting. And it would go a long way to addressing the fears of automation in all fields of employment.

I feel like they say he's elected. But is it by the whole world? Does everyone get one vote? Or do they have representatives who vote for them? 

If I'm to defend the world building I'd say that most decisions are likely made at a much local level. SG might be primary for dealing with system level issues. So maybe NYC is not the only center of power on earth. 

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On 6/2/2018 at 6:25 PM, Holmbo said:

I feel like they say he's elected. But is it by the whole world? Does everyone get one vote? Or do they have representatives who vote for them? 

If I'm to defend the world building I'd say that most decisions are likely made at a much local level. SG might be primary for dealing with system level issues. So maybe NYC is not the only center of power on earth. 

I'm pretty sure when Anna was brought in, the bobble-head talked about her & her speeches as helping get him elected.  So I believe he is elected and with his resignation and Errinwright's disgrace, Chrisjen was next in line of succession but presumably will have to face her own election at some point.

Did they ever say they were in NYC?  I don't think they stated where the UN building was, if that's what you're referring to.  I would guess the various nations vote on who the Secretary-General will be but I don't think the show said specifically "United States".  I think Anna's wife did mention what country she and the clinic are in but I'm not sure.

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7 hours ago, raven said:

Did they ever say they were in NYC?  I don't think they stated where the UN building was, if that's what you're referring to.  I would guess the various nations vote on who the Secretary-General will be but I don't think the show said specifically "United States".  I think Anna's wife did mention what country she and the clinic are in but I'm not sure.

They show the NYC skyline, with some additional new funky buildings. 

When Avasarala visits Holdens family she talks about their land being in "the north American trade zone" so I think that's what they call it. 

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Another thing I'm wondering about is which Belters are part of this new Belters state. And which places. Is it just some different ships flying around? Or do they have the stations too? Like Ceres. I don't feel like Earth and Mars would give up their stations. But if not there must be all out riots there every other week with people wanting to join the nation. 

(no book knowledge please)

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Another thing I'm wondering about is which Belters are part of this new Belters state. And which places. Is it just some different ships flying around? Or do they have the stations too? Like Ceres. 

I think we've seen three Belter stations on the show, Ceres, Tycho and Eros.

Fred Johnson runs Tycho and Anderson Dawes runs Ceres, so I would consider them to be part of the Belter State.

And Eros was sacrificed to Mao's experiment.

The crew on the Behemoth are a mix of Fred Johnson and Anderson Dawes' people. So maybe their factions are the main bulk of the Belter State for the moment. 

There must be other stations that we haven't seen yet. And we've seen that there are different OPA factions. Maybe some of them have taken control of stations like Fred Johnson and Anderson Dawes, or maybe some them are in chaos right now. I hope the show explores this more in the future.

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36 minutes ago, Winged Nike said:

I think we've seen three Belter stations on the show, Ceres, Tycho and Eros.

Fred Johnson runs Tycho and Anderson Dawes runs Ceres, so I would consider them to be part of the Belter State.

And Eros was sacrificed to Mao's experiment.

The crew on the Behemoth are a mix of Fred Johnson and Anderson Dawes' people. So maybe their factions are the main bulk of the Belter State for the moment. 

There must be other stations that we haven't seen yet. And we've seen that there are different OPA factions. Maybe some of them have taken control of stations like Fred Johnson and Anderson Dawes, or maybe some them are in chaos right now. I hope the show explores this more in the future.

Dawes only rules the station unofficially. All the cops we saw were paid by earth. 

There's also Ganymede which is half earth half Mars. Though maybe it's too wrecked for people to worry about independence. They seemed like more priveledged Belters too. 

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Dawes only rules the station unofficially. All the cops we saw were paid by earth. 

Miller's boss, Capt. Shaddid, is on Dawes' payroll. She shut down his investigation into Julie when he got too close to Julie's OPA involvement on Dawes orders. To me, I took this as Dawes taking control of Ceres.

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22 hours ago, Winged Nike said:

Miller's boss, Capt. Shaddid, is on Dawes' payroll. She shut down his investigation into Julie when he got too close to Julie's OPA involvement on Dawes orders. To me, I took this as Dawes taking control of Ceres.

I didn't think of that. I think I just assumed that it was somehow the protogen people who told her to stop the investigation. 

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I've come to this show because of Jared Harris' performance in "The Terror" -- I saw the clip where he explains his sister's death and was hooked.  I'm enjoying the show but am just starting.  (On episode 6.)  Harris is bringing that personality I like, though.  He caught it in one phrase to Miller, "And you will be welcome...."  That intensity that reminds me of Harris' father a little bit.  

As a traditional fan of the science fiction tech hard-core space genre, I'm not sure how I missed this series.

Right now, I would like to see the three (four) factions coalesce a little -- keeping the complicated cultures of Mars, Earth, and the Belt straight along with the "unknown force" is a bit trying at times.  I think binging doesn't help.   

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I hope this is the correct forum for this:
I want to see more of Mars. How people live, the government, etc. We got a glimpse at the start of Season 2 when Bobbie was introduced, and haven’t been back since. Mars os the largest inhabited place outside of Earth. In the meantime, there’s this:

https://www.imnovation-hub.com/construction/dubai-will-host-the-first-martian-city/?utm_source=dalton&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=outbrain

All the other inhabited places are minor planets like Ceres and Eros, space stations, and the Jovian Moons.Speaking of: Aren’t the Jovians-those who live on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn-their own nation, while still being part of the OPA?

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4 hours ago, marinw said:

All the other inhabited places are minor planets like Ceres and Eros, space stations, and the Jovian Moons.Speaking of: Aren’t the Jovians-those who live on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn-their own nation, while still being part of the OPA?

There's probably too few people to form much of a government -- even the united Belters haven't been taken seriously by the Inners until Fred stole their missiles.  And the asteroid belt extends out to Saturn so that makes it easy for them to join in.

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Random question. The Hamurabi captain is still alive right? 

I was just thinking about triple point and how, when I first watched it, I was sure Nguyen shot the hybrids at the Martian ships. But since he shot them at earth they should be ok. 

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5 hours ago, Holmbo said:

Random question. The Hamurabi captain is still alive right? 

I was just thinking about triple point and how, when I first watched it, I was sure Nguyen shot the hybrids at the Martian ships. But since he shot them at earth they should be ok. 

You probably mistyped, but Nguyen shot the hybrids at Mars. Yes, the Hammurabi is fine. It hailed the slingshot pilot as he approached the Ring before he salsa-fied himself. 

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26 minutes ago, scottiB said:

You probably mistyped, but Nguyen shot the hybrids at Mars. Yes, the Hammurabi is fine. It hailed the slingshot pilot as he approached the Ring before he salsa-fied himself. 

In Trippel point when Nguyen launched the pods I thought he was launching them at the Martian ships around Io. I was sure next episode was gonna show the hybrids wreak havoc on the Hamurabi. Then the next episode came around and I forgot about my assumptions. 

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Both Martian and UNN ships (along with the Rocinante) tried to shoot them down or obliterate them, but a percentage made it through. Fred Johnson, upon Naomi's suggestion, launched his confiscated nukes to protect Mars and took care the rest of them.

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Does anyone want to discuss overall thoughts on season three? 

I think it's the best season yet. It does feel like part A and part B though. Which part did you enjoy the most? 

Edited by Holmbo

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I'll weigh in to say (without analyzing too deeply) that I preferred part 1.  The main reason is that it had Avasarala in it with Bobbie as her backup and they both ended up on the Roci.  The second half was burdened with unlikable Melba/Clarissa and a suddenly obnoxious Diogo (that little shit), as well as Naomi off the Roci.  Also Cotyar > Ashford. 

Edited by WatchrTina
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The Avasarala/Bobbie/Cotyar team up is hard to beat.  I loved their interactions and Avasarala and Bobbie on the Roci was perfect.  Plus we still had Prax..

Drummer is fantastic and Ashford is a strong character but I missed Chrisjen in the second half.  Drummer/Naomi almost made up for that but I would have liked more Proto Miller being mysterious and snarky with Holden.  Still, the Drummer/Ashford conflict was well done and I really do like the whole "rings and more rings" storyline with the protomolecule makers' death/disappearance mystery.    I think Melba/Clarissa was meant to be more wild card then a sympathetic character and she accomplished that, but it didn't maker her terribly interesting, though Nadine Nicole did a good job.  I liked Pastor Anna as POV character who doesn't spend a lot of time in space.  There wasn't enough of the Roci crew though.

So though there was a lot of good stuff in the second half of the season, I prefer the first half because of the outstanding character work and because we had more scenes with my favorites (Chrisjen & Bobbie).

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I can't choose. I loved both. The first half was gripping and suspenseful and I loved all the character interactions. The second half took the story to a higher level, with the Ring and Ghost!Miller. I loved everything that happened on the Behemoth, and Drummer's War Speech ("We are belters. We are sharp. And we. do. not. feel. fear!") still sends shivers down my spine.

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It's hard to remember that all the stuff that happened in the first half of the season was this season.  It was sure an eventful one!  The writers really kept things moving.  As much as I enjoyed all the action and drama of the first half, I was really anxious for the ring to appear and couldn't wait to see how the inner part was presented.  It was hard to imagine while reading.

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2 hours ago, Haleth said:

It's hard to remember that all the stuff that happened in the first half of the season was this season.

I actually had to go back and look to remind myself that the first episode of this season was the one where Bobbie and Avasarala and the late, lamented Cotyar have to fight their way of Mao's yacht.  That seems like AGES ago.

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The nucleus opened up a nice even number of gates for them. Does that mean the aliens used the base of ten in their counting system as well? ?

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4 hours ago, Holmbo said:

Does that mean the aliens used the base of ten in their counting system as well? ?

I've never understood that about Alien math. What if aliens don't have ten fingers or tenticals or whatever? (See: Arrival)

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The Hindu-Arabic counting system only became widespread very recently.  Time still isn't base-10 and will likely never be. And apparently, the USA will clearly cling with cold dead fingers to Imperial units.

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On 7/3/2018 at 5:49 AM, ursula said:

The Hindu-Arabic counting system only became widespread very recently.  Time still isn't base-10 and will likely never be. And apparently, the USA will clearly cling with cold dead fingers to Imperial units.

"A gram of prevention is worth a kilogram of cure."
"Give them a centimeter and they'll take a kilometer."
"God's Little Square Kilometer"

LOL

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I recently binged all three seasons and (of course I'm biased) the show is a very easy, entertaining binge.   I'm impressed all over again with the really excellent work on background characters - the doomed Martian crew of the Donnager; Cotyar (sob) even though he murdered another fun character (Theo); Diogo - I had kind of forgot that he was likable when we first met him; Miller's co-worker, played by Athena Karkanis who was truly awful in Zoo but is actually decent in this show; the Martian group that our crew rescues who then try to take over the Roci.   

I think Wes Chatham did a great job - over the course of the series, you can see Amos growing a bit from the person we first met.  Holden's Ahab act was more understandable then when I first watched, and though I think Steven Strait improved over the seasons.

I don't like when the group is separated so I hope that when S4 begins, Bobbi is still on the Roci.  At the end of S3 we see her there; not surprising since she disobeyed orders and killed some of her fellow Martians and I don't know if there will be consequences for that.  Anyway, the Rings are a long way from Mars if they are thinking court martial.   I hope we get a lot more of Chrisjen; I enjoyed her political maneuvering, occasionally she was a step behind but she ended up on top.  And of course, more Drummer.

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On 3/3/2019 at 8:07 PM, raven said:

the doomed Martian crew of the Donnager

I just started a binge and one of the things I only appreciated now is how quickly they set up the cultures of Earth/Belters/Martians. We get to see the libertarian, can do spirit of the Belters in the Cant. There is the bureaucratic Earth run by the UN and Chrisjen . And then there is the Donnager. Total military efficiency.  And all of that holds up through the series.

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On 7/1/2018 at 10:40 AM, WatchrTina said:

I actually had to go back and look to remind myself that the first episode of this season was the one where Bobbie and Avasarala and the late, lamented Cotyar have to fight their way of Mao's yacht.  That seems like AGES ago.

I just finished season 3 and I had to remind myself of this as well! So much happened and yet it never felt rushed or confusing. I have to give props to the writers for that.  

Also RIP Cotyar, I didn't expect to get so attached to him but I missed him a lot once he was gone. His goodbye to Avasarala made me more upset than Miller's death. 

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Does anyone want to speculate about season 4?
@raven@Captanne @xaxat @jiminycrispies ? Unless you've read ahead in the books.

I have only read up until book three so I feel free to speculate. Also I haven't watched any info about season 4, I don't think there has been much though?

On 3/4/2019 at 2:07 AM, raven said:

I don't like when the group is separated so I hope that when S4 begins, Bobbi is still on the Roci.  At the end of S3 we see her there; not surprising since she disobeyed orders and killed some of her fellow Martians and I don't know if there will be consequences for that.  Anyway, the Rings are a long way from Mars if they are thinking court martial.   I hope we get a lot more of Chrisjen; I enjoyed her political maneuvering, occasionally she was a step behind but she ended up on top.  And of course, more Drummer.

I'm a bit torn about Bobbie. I would like her on the Roci, but I also would like to see more of Mars, which I would if Bobbie goes back there. I suppose they could show Mars even without Bobbie there, I'm sure there would be lots of political tension about the new worlds available through the ring that they could explore. But the writers might want to have Bobbie there as a familiar face. Also she's friends with Avasarala, which could be useful if Earth and Mars are working out some agreements about how they'll handle the ring. Maybe they'll decide to set up a guard by it and forbid anyone not authorized by them to enter the new systems. In that case the Roci crew might have to get permission to go and explore where that old civilization went.

And if Earth and Mars is trying to hammer out an agreement about the ring, the Belter state (what's its name by the way? Is it OPA?) will want a place at the table. Maybe Fred and Dawes will be there then. But what will Drummer and Ashford do? 

I hope that Anna will just go back to her family. I like her character but I'll be sad if she abandons them permanently. I can't see her going with the Roci instead of home.

Edited by Holmbo

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While watching S5, I did a full show rewatch (just finished S4) and am impressed with the set up that was going on for 5.   I didn't realize that Bobbie's last job with the criminal crew involved the theft of Martian stealth tech.   I guess I forgot about Marco's extended appearance at the end of 4 - though he wasn't on long, they really do let him talk way too much.   Really, Ashford could have killed Marco before Filip got the drop on him.     I think Keon Alexander looks like he could be a charismatic leader but a combination of the dialogue and the acting choices are not working for me. 

Drummer's decision not to agree with Marco's execution is a really bad one, in hindsight.  It feels like there are inconsistencies in her characterization - then she gets angry at Fred for leaking Marco's location to the "inners"?  She should have just executed Marco then, what did she think would happen?  I understand her point, kind of, but unfortunately the Belters are proving the inner planet guys right, the Belters can't/won't police their own.   Yet Earth and Mars are way too heavy handed and of course, no one really expected rocks to drop on Earth.   Even Ashford was expecting an attack on Ceres or Tycho.

The conflict on Ilus works as the microcosm I think the show was going for - the Belters were refugees from Ganymede - nothing that happened there was their fault ,yet no one would let them land.  They make it to Ilus and then the scientists and Murtry's guys show up as the Belters are trying to make a life for themselves.    They shouldn't have blown up the landing pad but Lucia at least was not expecting casualties - yet violence usually does beget violence, though Murtry of course went too far and on and on.   

The Lucia arc I can see was the impetus for Alex contacting his family at the beginning of 5, which seemed to come out of nowhere for me.  Alex is also kind of all over the place - we know from the beginning of the show he has a wife and son yet they seem to want to portray him as a free wheeling, flirty type - bad choice because of the actor and it doesn't quite work for the character.   Then he grows into cook/medical guy.  I really hope the character is re-cast and not killed, as I like the current iteration of Alex as someone who is starting to recognize his mistakes.   Sometimes all you can do is recognize you screwed up and keep walking forward and try to do better.  Naomi's talk about her past with Lucia, after Lucia tried to die, illustrates this really well and gives us the background for Naomi's actions in 5 - I had forgotten we get the real details about what Naomi did and why she left Marco.

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