S02.E07: After

[nodorothyparker]

Marthas have access to things like household chemicals and cutlery.  Emily would actually be more dangerous in that role.  The handmaids' day to day existence is fairly childproofed to prevent them from getting their hands on anything they might think to use to hurt themselves or anyone else.

[Helena Dax]

I just rewatched the first episode and there, Moira says Odette was caught, classified as unowoman and sent to the colonies.

[dleighg]

3 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Moira says Odette was caught, classified as unowoman and sent to the colonies.

Then what are the "death shots" of her? It looks like she was in a grassy field, along with (I think) one or two other people. I am seriously confused by those binders of death photos and how they ended up in a room in Canada.

[nodorothyparker]

It's fairly obvious from the fact that the Canadian official had the actual names of handmaids killed (which Gilead didn't even bother with) that Canada is engaging in quite a bit of surveillance and intel work on its unstable southern neighbor.  I can extrapolate from that there are probably agents scattered throughout the country where these things are happening gathering up this information and forwarding it on.  It's not a perfect explanation, but it's enough that I can fanwank enough to just go with it.

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

I just rewatched the first episode and there, Moira says Odette was caught, classified as unowoman and sent to the colonies.

 

1 hour ago, dleighg said:

Then what are the "death shots" of her? It looks like she was in a grassy field, along with (I think) one or two other people. I am seriously confused by those binders of death photos and how they ended up in a room in Canada.

 

I think the simple answer might be that Moira was going off of the information she had been given or offered by whomever at the time.

Once she regained her freedom then she could begin to look further into things, and perhaps there was no line leading to the colonies as far as Odette was concerned and therefore Moira started putting two and two together: if Odette had not made it to the colonies and she had not made it out of Gilead then where had her journey ended and when and how?

Just as we saw in this episode, the Canadian director and the rest of the team have no idea that 15 more handmaids were murdered, they think it was 16, but in fact it was 31 women lost. 

 I would imagine misinformation and rumor and confusion is a big part of how Gilead functions, news could be 100% fact or it could just be wishful or hopeful thinking turned into rumor, turned into speculation, turned into “fake news”. 

 And as for the photos, imo, it would not be that hard for an undercover agent inside of Gilead to take photos and smuggle them out, especially if it was towards the beginning of Gilead’s take over.

Clearly there is a network of spies inside of Gilead and they are working to get out as much information, both on paper and in picture, that prove what is actually going on inside of that hell hole, because I am sure they know how crucial and important it is to keep records and evidence. 

[Eureka]

This was not my favorite. I felt confused for most of it, trying to follow what was going on, mostly with Moira’s storyline.

When they were kissing their red veils in between names at the Handmaid funeral, it made me think of putting drops of wine on my plate for the 10 plagues during Passover. Weird, I know.

I haven’t read all the posts yet so maybe this was mentioned, but how do they know Janine and Emily are still fertile after however long they spent in the colonies? Toxic waste I’m sure can render you infertile or likely lead to “shredders.”

[Umbelina]

It's also possible Odette was shot while trying to escape from one of the colonies. 

[dleighg]

except she was dressed in "modern" clothes, and the grass was green :)

I know, I shouldn't be so OCD about this.

Edited June 1, 2018 by dleighg

[nodorothyparker]

13 minutes ago, Eureka said:

I haven’t read all the posts yet so maybe this was mentioned, but how do they know Janine and Emily are still fertile after however long they spent in the colonies?

I don't think they do, but it apparently doesn't matter very much either way.  The possibility is there and that would seem to be enough now that they're 31 handmaids short.  I would guess under the circumstances they figure the very small chance that Emily or Janine or any of the other women they brought back produces a healthy baby is still better than the absolute no chance they have if they leave them to die in the colonies while 31 houses now don't have a handmaid in residence.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, dleighg said:

except she was dressed in "modern" clothes, and the grass was green :)

I know, I shouldn't be so OCD about this.

I can see Odette and everyone else who worked in that medical practice meeting a similar fate as the Boston Globe employees. Rounded up at work one day and immediately executed.

[AnswersWanted]

4 hours ago, Eureka said:

This was not my favorite. I felt confused for most of it, trying to follow what was going on, mostly with Moira’s storyline.

When they were kissing their red veils in between names at the Handmaid funeral, it made me think of putting drops of wine on my plate for the 10 plagues during Passover. Weird, I know.

I haven’t read all the posts yet so maybe this was mentioned, but how do they know Janine and Emily are still fertile after however long they spent in the colonies? Toxic waste I’m sure can render you infertile or likely lead to “shredders.”

 

 The leaders of Gilead seem to be very ill-equipped making good decisions. 

 Frankly I believe that they never had it in their minds that such a bombing could even take place.

They are a bunch of cocky SOB‘s, they did not anticipate such an attack and obviously never anticipated losing that many handmaids. 

 If they had been thinking one would assume they would have a special holding place for banished or punished handmaids whom could not remain in Gilead society.

They would continue to utilize the women who would still be able to function normally physically but basically keep them as one might death row inmates. 

But these idiots decide to throw formally completely healthy women into a toxic waste dump and then scramble at the last second to try to retrieve the few who very well aren’t too heavily poisoned, yet, and potentially dying but haven’t yet gotten to the pearly gates.

 Since they seem to have destroyed all modern day methods of testing for fertility, or at least they keep claiming they have, they are going off of the fact that these ladies were chosen for their fertility, there’s a chance they could try to use others but there’s also a very good chance those women are totally infertile. 

 And apparently training a woman to be a handmaid takes a bit of time,  what with the constant mental and emotional and physical torture and torment and terrorizing and all, so that’s probably  time they may not want to spend right now.

 

 

51 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I can see Odette and everyone else who worked in that medical practice meeting a similar fate as the Boston Globe employees. Rounded up at work one day and immediately executed.

 

I concur.  

She was not just a doctor but also a OB/GYN, she was probably seen as the worst of the worst: a woman who was an active participant of the devil’s dirty work in science fiddling with women’s “holy” lady parts while also being a gender traitor.

Odette was much like Emily’s boss who ended up being hung at the college, if anyone was going to be a part of the first wave of slaughtering, it would have been her.

Edited June 2, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[PsychoDrone]

I see people's hatred of Luke has carried over from S1.  He is getting a bad rap that he doesn't deserve.  There isn't much that he can do and whose to say that he isn't raging against the situation?  Moira is shown hunting down her girlfriend and dealing with the pain of it.  Luke has already traveled the path Moira is on and has come to terms with it.  He is shown going to that office to get information.  He does still care and wants to know about his family.  Think back when he Moira first showed up in Canada.  He went to get her and has stuck by her through all this.  The fact that he has faith that June and his daughter are still alive says a LOT about his character.  He hasn't given up on his family and, I feel, desperately looks forward to reuniting with them.  No one is condemning June for hooking up with Nick, but if Luke were shown to have "moved" on, I imagine he would be condemned mercilessly.

Finally, Serena gets what she wanted from the beginning of this experiment.  I wonder what the dynamic will be when the commander returns.  She won't give up her place without a fight.  She's the stronger of the two, and he may be willing to let her be the power behind the throne.

[secnarf]

18 minutes ago, PsychoDrone said:

  No one is condemning June for hooking up with Nick, but if Luke were shown to have "moved" on, I imagine he would be condemned mercilessly.

Allow me. I dislike seeing the two of them together. June knows Luke is alive and here she is sleeping with another man - beyond what she was forced to do that led to her pregnancy.

I don't like Luke either, but I really can't understand what logic June is using to justify this.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Allow me. I dislike seeing the two of them together. June knows Luke is alive and here she is sleeping with another man - beyond what she was forced to do that led to her pregnancy.

I don't like Luke either, but I really can't understand what logic June is using to justify this.

She certainly doesn't think she will ever see him again.  She's living in hell, and Nick is her only, temporary, possible escape from that hell.  (edited because I just remembered June was told he's alive and in the resistance in Canada.)

I also didn't think Luke did anything wrong in this episode.  We saw him when he first arrived, running around like crazy, trying to organize something, insisting on help to get his wife and child back.  He's been there longer than Moira, he's in a different stage of grief.  He was kind to her.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[secnarf]

Just now, Umbelina said:

June thinks that Luke is probably dead, the odds of him escaping are very much against him.  Even IF he were alive, she certainly doesn't think she will ever see him again.  She's living in hell, and Nick is her only, temporary, possible escape from that hell.

I also didn't think Luke did anything wrong in this episode.  We saw him when he first arrived, running around like crazy, trying to organize something, insisting on help to get his wife and child back.  He's been there longer than Moira, he's in a different stage of grief.  He was kind to her.

June was told Luke was alive and in Canada by the Mexican ambassador's assistant. Ignoring the obvious questions of how the ambassador knew and knew who June was, she was told Luke is alive.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, secnarf said:

June was told Luke was alive and in Canada by the Mexican ambassador's assistant. Ignoring the obvious questions of how the ambassador knew and knew who June was, she was told Luke is alive.

Yes, I edited before you posted this.

As I say up there, she still thinks it's a pipe dream that they would ever see one another again.  On top of all of that, you, while in prison, a prison you have very little hope of getting out of alive, have to lead the life you have, not the one you hope for.  I also think that June, after reflection, could have some anger at Luke, for NOT agreeing to flee when she wanted to.  The changes didn't bother Luke at all for quite a while, since they didn't impact him, a man, and he actually laughed at June being upset that they did her, a woman.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[revbfc]

3 hours ago, secnarf said:

Allow me. I dislike seeing the two of them together. June knows Luke is alive and here she is sleeping with another man - beyond what she was forced to do that led to her pregnancy.

I don't like Luke either, but I really can't understand what logic June is using to justify this.

Nick is there, Luke is not.  It’s that simple.  

[Hollandaise]

Why did Nick ask for a transfer? How would that help June or keep the three of them together as he mentioned.

[PsychoDrone]

I said no one is faulting June for hooking up with Nick, and would come down HARD on Luke if he hooked up with someone else, but I don't fault June or Luke for doing it.  They are in an untenable situation that is ongoing with no end in sight.  Not that hard to imagine both of them would seek solace with someone else.  I have to give Luke props if he is staying faithful, considering it doesn't cost him anything to be with someone else.  June runs the risk of mutilation and death for her sexual transgressions.

I only really fault Luke for one thing and that's getting the resistance leader killed when they were trying to escape the US in S1.  Them not leaving when things got bad falls on both their shoulders. My wife is able to get me to do things I don't want to do, and I figure June is no different.  She accepted the situation as much as him, so she bears some responsibility for them not escaping when they had the chance.  He desperately wants his family back.  He helped the mute woman (not mute anymore), sought out Moira when she got to Canada, been moral support for Moira (bringing her food, not shooting down her search), and still is active in trying to find out info on his family.  He may be doing other things, but we don't see it.  So, why does he get all this hate?  IMO, it isn't deserved.

Edited June 3, 2018 by PsychoDrone

[Empress1]

13 hours ago, revbfc said:

Nick is there, Luke is not.  It’s that simple.  

Right. Luke isn't there and odds are excellent he'll never be there again. As @Umbelina says, in their situation you have to live the life you're in, not the life you wish you were in. June and Luke know the other is alive, but how are they going to get back to each other? What are they going to do about it? June was just recaptured. Nick is the one spot of quasi-solace she has in this place. I don't begrudge her taking it. I wouldn't begrudge Luke for hooking up with someone else either.

[GreekGeek]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:45 PM, dleighg said:

I was very confused by the scene in Canada where the names of the handmaids who were killed were being read. The last name was "Odette Johnson." Now we know Odette wasn't a handmaid, and wasn't killed in the bombing. I read on another site that Moira must have asked them to add Odette's name to those killed, as she is now no longer an "unnamed victim." 

Does this make sense to others?

Yes, it makes sense, but I thought it should have been shown explicitly. I initially thought Odette was one of the handmaids killed in the bombing, and got really confused about the timeline and backstory. Glad to read here that I wasn't the only one. Why is she looking for information about Odette at the exact same time that others want to know about the recently slain Handmaids? Has she been looking for Odette all along, and only just now happened to find out? I must be the only viewer who isn't eager for more Moira, at least until she does something more interesting than seek information on a lover we never met before. 

Health care in Gilead is something I'd like to know more about. On the one hand, they killed doctors who did abortions, but they left a few OB/GYN's around to monitor the Handmaids' pregnancies. In the previous episode, Serena said that they won't know the baby's sex until it's born, but we've also seen June getting an ultrasound that looked pretty modern to me. And who's treating Fred's injuries, and how?

Speaking of Fred, it would really land Serena in hot water if he died before "his" orders went out! 

I really want to see some kind of women's coup, led by Serena and June!

ETA: I see from the preview to E8 that Fred is apparently OK and on to what the ladies did. Oh shit.

Edited June 3, 2018 by GreekGeek

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Right. Luke isn't there and odds are excellent he'll never be there again. As @Umbelina says, in their situation you have to live the life you're in, not the life you wish you were in. June and Luke know the other is alive, but how are they going to get back to each other? What are they going to do about it? June was just recaptured. Nick is the one spot of quasi-solace she has in this place. I don't begrudge her taking it. I wouldn't begrudge Luke for hooking up with someone else either.

I feel the same way you do. I don’t think June or Nick would be upset with each other for finding companionship and sexual fulfillment in the last years they’ve been through hell. I don’t doubt Emily loved her wife deeply, and believes she and her son to be safe/well in Canada but she found solace in her relationship with the Martha; they both wanted that so much it almost got them killed and Emily was gentially mutilated. I don’t think that’s a reflection in her love for her wife. 

I’m not married or partnered, but I don’t put sex with someone else in circumstances of long separation/imminent death etc (like during war, or believing your spouse missing) in the same cateogory as sex with someone else just cause you feel like it. It reminds me in Outlander how many people were upset that Frank possibly cheated on Claire during WWII where they were forced apart of years due to their work....

8 hours ago, PsychoDrone said:

I said no one is faulting June for hooking up with Nick, and would come down HARD on Luke if he hooked up with someone else, but I don't fault June or Luke for doing it.  They are in an untenable situation that is ongoing with no end in sight.  Not that hard to imagine both of them would seek solace with someone else.  I have to give Luke props if he is staying faithful, considering it doesn't cost him anything to be with someone else.  June runs the risk of mutilation and death for her sexual transgressions.

I only really fault Luke for one thing and that's getting the resistance leader killed when they were trying to escape the US in S1.  Them not leaving when things got bad falls on both their shoulders. My wife is able to get me to do things I don't want to do, and I figure June is no different.  She accepted the situation as much as him, so she bears some responsibility for them not escaping when they had the chance.  He desperately wants his family back.  He helped the mute woman (not mute anymore), sought out Moira when she got to Canada, been moral support for Moira (bringing her food, not shooting down her search), and still is active in trying to find out info on his family.  He may be doing other things, but we don't see it.  So, why does he get all this hate?  IMO, it isn't deserved.

I agree. 

[marinw]

So the enforcers in the colonies are female-they were the ones in the hats and gas masks. So are those women Aunts? I wonder if this s how Aunts are disciplined if they transgress in some way? 

Cushing is so creeping and menacing. I was relieved when he was arrested.

So Rita is dead? And no one even mentions her? Or did I miss something?

Edited June 4, 2018 by marinw

[Brn2bwild]

Does it seem weird to anyone that the guards in the supermarket just let the handmaids gather close and chat with one another?  You would think after Lillie/Ofglen, they'd be wary of any gathering of handmaids, as they could be plotting further destruction of Gilead.  By comparison, killing commanders and their families makes no sense -- why would commanders, who benefit immensely from the current system, be working with May Day?  Unless the killings were due to Commander Cushing wanting to dispense with all of his rivals. 

[Pepper the Cat]

On 2018-05-30 at 5:26 AM, QQQQ said:

I need less whispering on this show, as I'm only catching every 3rd word.

 

Please excuse me while I go yell at some kids to get off my lawn. 

i keep having to turn on the Closed Captioning on

Edited June 4, 2018 by Pepper the Cat

[Ms Blue Jay]

That new scary commander guy looked soooo much like Will Forte, am I right?

[dleighg]

9 hours ago, marinw said:

So Rita is dead? And no one even mentions her? Or did I miss something?

she was mentioned after the murder of the Martha in the street-- she went with Eden to pay condolences on the family of the Martha.

[Pepper the Cat]

On 2018-05-31 at 6:20 PM, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Can I just say how stoked I am that this show not only has several episodes left this season BUT is re-upped for S3? (Said someone for whom watching the series finale today of "Americans" was so filled with an unspeakable sadness for its loss). 

I also like the fact that we're "off the grid," so to speak, of the book so who knows where they will go. This keeps me at the edge of my La-Z-Boy every episode. I'm just bummed that Mr. Snappy won't watch it (though I consider him very much a feminist, he found the show to be too anti-men and I don't think he ever got into the book because he is a very slow reader). So it's just me ... and you, my PTV friends.

I've long held the "unpopular opinion" of loving Alexis Bledel ... GG was something Little Snappy and I watched together for the entire run, she being the Rory to my Lorelai without the divorced/single mom part ... and I think she has been absolutely KILLER as Emily ... 

I was SO terrified that Rita had been executed (I think we were supposed to wonder about that, right?) ... I love how she has become one of the stealth heroines of this show and hope we will get a Rita-centric episode at some point where we see everything from the Marthas' POV ... Amanda Bruegel (sp?) is a revelation.

Thank you for the catch on Deeds being Glen ... Also, I had been hoping we'd see Cushing executed right out on the lawn instead of shuttled into a van but one can still hope, right?

AGHHGHGHHG that baby ... so cute. WannaBeAGrandma emoticons kicking into full gear on that. 

And every time I see her, Moira just slays me more and more. 

Okay. All my thoughts. Sort of. Part of me wishes this whole thing was streaming so I could binge but the other part is glad someone is limited my virtual Godiva Chocolate-TV intake to a piece at a time.

[marinw]

1 hour ago, dleighg said:

she was mentioned after the murder of the Martha in the street-- she went with Eden to pay condolences on the family of the Martha.

Thank you. I was wondering why Rita  wasn't in the house.

14 hours ago, GreekGeek said:

Speaking of Fred, it would really land Serena in hot water if he died before "his" orders went out! 

The orders were typed out. Fred dosn't password protect his laptop?

Also, wouldn't the Gilead powers that be know that Fred is in the hospital and in no shape to issue orders? I noted that Fred was seemed to be in the basement, in a ward not as nice as the hospital room June was in last episode. Is the fact that he is injured being kept a secret for some reason?

Edited June 4, 2018 by marinw

[greekmom]

I also noticed there were a few commanders hanging at certain homes (as well as one wife). Cushings was a bit cray cray there with the power.  I am glad he is gone but worried about the backlash.

[MV713]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 2:48 PM, DiabLOL said:

 

So this is either sloppy writing or we're about to see how healthy babies are Gilead's Fake News.

Yes, this points directly to Angela.

[SourK]

Thanks to a shot that panned across a line of Aunts at the funeral, I've developed a new theory of who ends up as an Aunt. My new theory is: pious women who are post-menopausal and were not married at the time of the coup.

Re: how the rest of the world reacts to Gilead. I'm also curious about that, but I'll throw this in as well. America has a lot of weapons. Like, unusually a lot. It's not clear how much of that's left after that war that created Gilead, but even if everyone else in NATO got together and attacked... there's still a good chance we would lose. So, given that, and given how hesitant we all always are to intervene in human rights abuses if the countries in question aren't also actively attacking us... I'm not surprised if the outside world isn't doing much.

Also, FWIW, the point of the book originally was about how we look at these societies from the outside and decide it's wrong to judge them, and don't interfere.

On 5/30/2018 at 1:19 AM, Brn2bwild said:

There was much to like about this episode, but something didn't quite gel with me.  It felt like Moira's storyline should have had its own episode, and have been fleshed out more.  We should have heard about Odette before this episode.  We felt sympathy for Moira because we know Moira, but the discovery would have been much more impactful if we also knew Odette.

I was glad to see Emily and Janine "escape" the colonies, but in some ways, seeing them dumped back into the handmaid pool (and in the same location where they were before, no less) seemed to undercut the journey they were on in the colonies.

Yeah. I was sad about Odette, but I wish we had heard about her at some point before. I guess there's an argument that it would have made the flashbacks even more complicated than they already were, but, for all intents and purposes, it looked like June, Luke, and Moira were all hanging out together with nobody else in their social circle.

As far as resetting everything... I think that's going to be a problem for this show, especially if they're trying to stretch it out. I'm reading this book called Finite and Infinite Games, and basically, the main idea is that an infinite game is a game where the goal is to keep on playing, so you have to change the rules periodically to stop anyone from winning or reaching a definitive conclusion. I feel like that's the curse of open-ended TV shows like this -- viewers want to see the story advance, but the story can't advance to a point where it threatens to conclude, so something has to happen to reverse the advancement. I would personally prefer shows that know how many episodes they have from the beginning, but unless those shows are really short, that almost never happens.

On 5/30/2018 at 1:54 AM, tennisgurl said:

So, I think I know how people in Gilead spend their time now that anything remotely fun or interesting has been banned: They practice complicated super Extra rituals for everything, and work on their call and response routines! I guess all that choreography takes up a lot of their spare time. And remember when your supposed to say whatever for any situation.

 

I thought the opening scene was way overdone, and that was one of the questions I asked myself while I was watching: When did they practice this? Did they all stand in a warehouse for a couple of hours while Aunt Lydia walked them through the whole thing, like, "When I say X, you all pull off your bee-keeper veils and hold them out to the side at a 90-degree angle?" And, if they did practice... did they practice just to perform this for themselves? There was no one else there. It was really weird.

On 5/30/2018 at 5:41 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As always, whenever a handmaid is given something she's not allowed, I'm immediately suspicious that it's a set up but part of me loved that Serena brought June into her secret. Now they're in it together (at least for now). Two womenfolk reading and writing is scandalous enough, but secretly wielding power? SCANDALOUS!
 

I also liked that Serena brought June in on it -- and I can believe that she and June understand each other well enough at this point to have a temporary alliance where they work in their mutual interest. I was more surprised that she brought Nick into it because, why does she trust Nick? I guess she didn't have much of a choice.

 

On 5/30/2018 at 10:56 AM, AnswersWanted said:

 I was thinking Facebook or Instagram myself, just because Gilead tried to purge out all electronic and online advancements, at least allowing access to most people, from their area, I would assume that other governments have access to the Internet still and all it has to offer. 

Seeing that photo actually made me think about something I hadn't before, there would’ve been so much uploaded information before the fall of Gilead, people making videos on YouTube or Instagram or Snapchat,  how many might have run live streams through Facebook, how many horrible things were captured forever and uploaded for all to see? 

When was that exact moment Gilead cut the cord, both literally and figuratively, and sealed everyone out?

As far as where the Moira/Odette photo came from, I also wondered that, but I'm willing to handwave it as Luke getting access to his stuff after he reached Canada (which was closer to the early days of Gilead) or Moira getting access to her stuff online... but you raise an interesting question. Because, most of the popular Western social networks and cloud storage sites are owned by American companies. Some of them have officers in other countries, but it makes me wonder, not for the first time, what happened to the tech billionaires?

I've asked myself the same question about celebrities, and the answer I came up with in my head is that they were rich enough that the could get themselves out of the country as soon as trouble started, so maybe the super rich did the same thing... but I wonder.

And I wonder because celebrity and super intense capitalism are big features of American culture that you don't find to the same degree almost anywhere else, and that makes me think the process of overthrowing America and turning it into a theocracy would be different? It would need to overcome a bunch of rich people who didn't want to lose their business interests and wouldn't be served by a society where people sit around knitting and eating apples. And, I know it's not the point of the show, but I'm curious about how that happened.

On 5/30/2018 at 6:44 PM, Umbelina said:

Luke didn't really bother me last night.  Everyone faces grief and trauma differently, I didn't think that meant he didn't care.  He was kind to Moira bringing her the take out food.  Sometimes small gestures and the touch on the shoulder mean more to someone who is grieving than lots of words or tears.  Also, for the other poster that said this (?) Luke may be in a different stage of his PTSD up there, he's been there longer.

Luke also doesn't bother me. He's been on this hope-disappointment-fear-relief rollercoaster for a long time now. The reality of his situation, and the situation of most refugees, is that he can't do anything but wait. That's really painful, but it's real.

On 5/30/2018 at 11:15 PM, Souris said:

I spent the rest of the episode wondering if it was Rita (Serena's Martha) who was killed, until later when Serena said that Eden and Rita had gone to visit the family whose Martha had been killed. I think maybe they wanted us to wonder, because when June was crying to Nick about it, she just said "They killed HER."

Yeah, I was also confused about that. I think that particular scene might have been longer originally and then cut down, but I'm confused in general about what happened in that whole sequence with the Marthas.

On 5/31/2018 at 4:46 PM, DiabLOL said:

True but what I meant was is he connected to the internet? Is there even an internet?

North Korea has an internet that's really just a bunch of hand-picked pages, so I could see Gilead having something similar. It's an "internet" kind of, in that it functions well enough to let them do their work, but not the internet we know right now.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

As far as where the Moira/Odette photo came from, I also wondered that, but I'm willing to handwave it as Luke getting access to his stuff after he reached Canada (which was closer to the early days of Gilead) or Moira getting access to her stuff online... but you raise an interesting question. Because, most of the popular Western social networks and cloud storage sites are owned by American companies.

Almost all big cloud storage companies have data centers in multiple countries and the data is replicated in multiple locations in case a data center goes down (due to natural disasters, power outages, terrorist attacks, etc.) If most of the tech elite managed to escape, they'd still have access to most of the data and would be able to continue running the companies from abroad.

[Souris]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

I also liked that Serena brought June in on it -- and I can believe that she and June understand each other well enough at this point to have a temporary alliance where they work in their mutual interest. I was more surprised that she brought Nick into it because, why does she trust Nick? I guess she didn't have much of a choice.

She trusted him enough to arrange for him to impregnate June. So she's already trusted him enough to "ask" him to do something illegal. In for a penny, in for a pound!

Edited June 4, 2018 by Souris

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, marinw said:

The orders were typed out. Fred dosn't password protect his laptop?

They probably shared the same computer before, back when he admired her.  Since she was no longer allowed near a computer, maybe he didn't change his password?  Or maybe he is so basic that she easily guessed it.

[marinw]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

  Or maybe he is so basic that she easily guessed it.

"Byhishand123" 

[Kel Varnsen]

13 hours ago, greekmom said:

I also noticed there were a few commanders hanging at certain homes (as well as one wife). Cushings was a bit cray cray there with the power.  I am glad he is gone but worried about the backlash.

All the people hanging (it seemed like every other household) had me wondering are those people all part of the resistance? If so why is the resistance losing so badly with that many followers?

If they weren't all resistance and the government was just killing everyone they were suspicious of doesn't that give the resistance more recruiting power since if you are going to hang anyways you might as well fight back. 

[AngelaHunter]

On 6/2/2018 at 10:43 PM, Umbelina said:

She's living in hell, and Nick is her only, temporary, possible escape from that hell. 

Absolutely. Who wouldn't desperately grasp the chance for any bit of comfort, affection and warmth from someone who cares about her, in that situation? We all need that and I'm pretty sure - no, I'm 100% sure - I would too. When you're drowning in despair and fear, thoughts of an absent husband do little good.

[mamadrama]

I belong to a few different "Handmaid" groups beside this one, so this isn't PTV specific, but I've seen a lot of "poster shaming" for those of us who aren't big fans of Luke. I'll admit it, I don't like the dude. He's not someone I would be friends with, either before the rise of Gilead or as a refugee in Canada. It's not just the way we've seen his version of grieving up in Canada-I haven't liked him in any of his flashbacks, either. I'm not much of a fan of Nick's, just because I haven't bonded with his character because I don't think there's been much characterization there to bond with. I think that's totally okay, though. Some people don't like Moira, or even June, and I'm okay with that as well. I think it's awesome that we're watching a show that inspires so many opinions in its viewers. If we all loved the same people and hated the same people, we wouldn't have a whole lot to talk about other than plot points. What I DO think is interesting, though, is that even though we may not "like" the characters, we still mostly manage to feel sympathy for them. As a writer myself, I am kind of inspired by that. The fact that I dislike Luke yet still root for him and want good things to happen for him? The fact that I abhor Serena Joy and Aunt Lydia and yet still want entire episodes devoted to them? That's kind of amazing. There are not many shows/books/movies that make me feel that way. 

[marny]

My dislike of Luke is more about how we’ve seen him in the flashbacks. When women all lost their jobs and lost access to their bank accounts, he barely reacted. He was kinda like, “huh, that sucks” and he moved on. We saw June and Moira protesting in the street— where was Luke? I don’t know if the writers intended to make him seem apathetic to the injustices women were starting to suffer, but that’s how it came across to me, and I hold a grudge against him for that. 

[nodorothyparker]

I'm not a Luke fan but I don't really have any strong feelings against him either.  He was like a lot of ordinary people who go along, who don't want to make waves, don't want to be bothered until they have no choice, and tend to believe "the system" will take care of things and that everything will somehow work out.  That's why the more I've thought about it the more I've found his very muted response that "she's not okay, she's alive" so telling.  Now that his wife and daughter have been taken, now he gets it.  But unless there's something the show is holding back, he's still not a hero or a freedom fighter.  He's in the same boat as thousands or probably millions of other family members who individually probably can't do much about it.

[Token]

I want to know who was staffing that 'hospital' that Waterford was in.  And was that really a hospital?  Because it looked like some kind of concrete bunker.  No pretty white room for him, like June had.

I'm pretty sure Emily did kill a soldier when she was driving around in that car.... I remember something going smoosh and exploding!

[JasonCC]

Great comments here. I'll agree that this episode was a mixed bag and sometimes they actually need to be a little less cryptic with things (Odette in the montage? Or is it just Handmaids?). It also seemed like Rita got killed then it becomes more obvious it was anther Martha reaching for her pass. I don't want sledgehammers but I don't like to get taken out of the moment when I realize I got something wrong.

The shooting in the street scene was chilling, as were the hanging "collaborators". These smaller moments NOT filmed in an over the top cinematic style actually send more shivers up my spine (you can add Emily's senior colleague hanging and the graffiti on the sidewalk to that too).  Like in Occupied France, I think many (most?) Gilead residents are manipulating the periodic chaos to point fingers, settle an old festering grudge from the "before tine", gain personal or financial status more than actually being true, pious believers. Coco Chanel used the anti-Semitic Vichy France laws (modelled/imposed from Nazi Germany) to get exclusive control back of her company from the Jewish investors who owned the bulk of it. These upheavals bring out the best and the shittiest in people.

The Mexico episode last season and it's plot holes bothered me more than the ones in "After" though. I enjoy filling in some of the blanks on the political stuff. My hand wave on the Mexico episode was the handmaids sent were more a token gesture as a way to get the first Latin American country to break the embargo/sanctions. It's implied Catholic Latin America has maintained a strict no trade sanction on Gilead. At Janine's birth party there was a comment that no one had tasted real coffee in quite some time.

Related to that, one explanation I'm having to make (which I already suspected) is that much of the former continental USA has NOT become the full-blown Gilead vision yet. It's clearly the New England/Boston area that has implemented it to the fullest thus far (that they used that area to "show off" the system to the Mexico ambassador supports this). Otherwise, there is no reason why Emily and Janine would be sent to the same region again, even if they needed handmaids after the suicide bombing. Resistance/fighting in Chicago and Florida have been mentioned on the show already. I suspect large chunks of what has been declared the Republic of Gilead is more in some sort of chaos/civil war/military occupation state.

Edited June 5, 2018 by JasonCC

[marinw]

24 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

Related to that, one explanation I'm having to make (which I already suspected) is that much of the former continental USA has NOT become the full Gilead vision yet.

A Map would be usefull here.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, marinw said:

A Map would be usefull here.

Atwood never gave one, because there is no way June would have access to one, but since we are not in first person, and haven't been for ages, maybe we will get more information.

From memory and show (and a bit of book, but honestly the show has talked enough about resistance and internal war and fronts so I hardly think this is a spoiler?)

California and other places had the nuclear power meltdowns, basically just check where we have them in the USA (everywhere) and go from there to earthquake zones to make a guess where the nuclear clean up of topsoil is happening.  Global warming (again you can look at projection maps) also devastated areas, think rainfall changes, heat changes, increased hurricane activity, etc.  Overuse of chemicals also ruined much farmland, and there was a dustbowl effect as well.

Some areas are still used for raising crops, these are slave labor operations, similar to the Gulag-like colony where we saw Emily.  They are staffed by soldiers and then inmates are almost exclusively Black people.  The south and midwest were mentioned on the show, wheat, corn, and oranges I think.  Seeing what shortages there are in the store shopping scenes is another hint about that. 

Alaska and Hawaii of course are the remaining USA.  Pockets of resistance are all over Gilead (the wars the soldiers go to fight, and the wives knit scarves for) are scattered bands of people, not one cohesive army.  Probably defectors from Gilead's US military joined them here and there.  The Rocky Mountains is specifically mentioned as an area of great resistance in the wars.

I agree, from the show, we certainly know much of the East Coast is under control.  I'm kind of pissed that this episode killed so many of the visiting Commanders from other places, or that we (so far at least) didn't get the home visits/staying with Boston Commanders situation, because I was really HOPING we would learn more about which other areas of the former USA were completely under Gilead's control.

Frankly, if this expanded show doesn't start giving us some expanded information?  It's going to be tough to keep watching.  I was thrilled with the second season, but so far, though extremely well done?  They have only introduced more books stuff, and fleshed out characters we already know.

I want Canada scenes to be about world reaction and information, THAT is the value of having characters in Canada, not more flashbacks.  I want to know what the world is saying, thinking, doing about this appalling violation of human rights.  Fuck flashbacks.  Fuck more misery, we have enough in Gilead, Canada is the place to show us so much more.  WHY aren't our characters in contact with the USA in Alaska and Hawaii?  They have phones, they have freedom, they have computers, WHY are we still treading past ground up there?

I want the Commanders, as you say, to give us a better idea of just where wars are, just where the resistance is, where the food is growing, the slavery there, and the revolts there.  I want to know just how much they actually control.  We are in their minds often enough, TELL US SOMETHING USEFUL!

I fear, more and more that the writers are dragging their feet on revealing more about Gilead.  Yes, we FINALLY got to see econowives, and Mayday in action, and one nuclear waste colony.  They need to start delivering more than just that though, they really do.  I love this show, but even I am getting frustrated.  This episode increased that, because I was so looking forward to more clues from the visiting commanders.  Ditto all of the Canada stuff.

Writers?  You are letting me down, and no, I don't want to watch ten seasons of this if you aren't going to give us a clearer view.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I want to know what the world is saying, thinking, doing about this appalling violation of human rights.

It's entirely possible that the world is doing nothing, just like it has done in many real-life instances of appalling human rights violations. We know that there are trade embargoes, so most countries are probably waiting for Gilead to self-destruct without actively engaging. I would imagine that many countries are also dealing with environmental and/or population crises, so they may not be in a strong position to go to war.

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

It's entirely possible that the world is doing nothing, just like it has done in many real-life instances of appalling human rights violations. We know that there are trade embargoes, so most countries are probably waiting for Gilead to self-destruct without actively engaging. I would imagine that many countries are also dealing with environmental and/or population crises, so they may not be in a strong position to go to war.

 I really doubt that though.  They may not, as countries, be actively willing to invade or attack, certainly, I seriously doubt that would happen.  Are they discussing options?  Of course.  Are they aiding the rebels on the sly?  Probably.  Alaska and Hawaii would certainly be involved with figuring out a way to help fellow American citizens.  Women in other countries would be protesting, probably some men as well. 

Aside from all that, the (white, industrialized world "first world" countries) would have similar birth issues.  I want to know what THEY are doing about that, certainly nothing like Gilead is doing.  What do the primarily Islamic nations say about being framed for the murders of the Senate, Congress, President and staff of the USA?  Wouldn't Luke and Moira be reading everything they could get their hands on, and talking with officials in the new capital of Alaska instead of just moping around?  Where is the hustle guys?  Yeah, I know you have PSTD, understandable, but what are you DOING?  You've been deprived of news for years now, why aren't you reading, why aren't you going to Europe and talking to human rights groups? 

That's what I mean.  In my opinion this show needs an infusion of hope, of at least some lightness, of some action, and those of our cast in Canada are perfectly poised to do that.  Instead, more misery porn.  No.  We have quite enough of that and it's fully justified in Gilead and the Colonies. 

I think we need to take this to the "things I hate about the show" thread though.  Ha.  I'm getting heated about this now.  Go ahead and expand the show, but in doing that, you need to EXPAND THE SHOW, and that means the world as well.  Don't put in the whole incredible Luke and Moira escapes to just let them wallow.

[NicoleMN6]

On 5/31/2018 at 2:07 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was less an error of casting and more a case of working with what's available. Newborns are not allowed to be used in Canada.

They should have used a swaddled doll, then.  It was extremely jarring to think that Moira had bonded with this 4-6 month old baby and was THEN giving it up, given that there had been no mention of that experience in the first season. Even more so if you watched this episode and then the next one in one sitting, comparing newborn Gavin (holding his own head up?!) to 10-month-old Angela/Charlotte.

[Snewtsie]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Fuck flashbacks.  Fuck more misery, we have enough in Gilead, Canada is the place to show us so much more.  WHY aren't our characters in contact with the USA in Alaska and Hawaii?  They have phones, they have freedom, they have computers, WHY are we still treading past ground up there?

I want the Commanders, as you say, to give us a better idea of just where wars are, just where the resistance is, where the food is growing, the slavery there, and the revolts there.  I want to know just how much they actually control.  We are in their minds often enough, TELL US SOMETHING USEFUL!

Writers?  You are letting me down, and no, I don't want to watch ten seasons of this if you aren't going to give us a clearer view.

Hallelujah!  We've had enough flashbacks.  There's no further value in showing us the past (except maybe Aunt Lydia's backstory, but I'm actually in favor of keeping her former life a mystery until a future season).  Let's just get on with the Here & Now abut how Gilead is functioning.  I have no problem with suspended disbelief when it comes to slight inconsistencies- like Gavin not being a real 'newborn', and Moira claiming in S1 that Odette was sent to the colonies (I'm assuming she thought that based on rumors, and maybe now we're seeing she was never really convinced those rumors were true).  But for goodness sake, we need the writers to give us give us some MEAT when it comes to the important stuff of how this government can exist.

We could use some clarity on even simple questions- like ...We know that Waterford is a high ranking official, but it seems like there is no clear managerial structure and there's a constant power-play for who is in charge. And frankly I've never been convinced Waterford is charismatic enough to be very influential... And when it comes to Aunt Lydia, why is she always out & about checking on her former Handmaids?  Should she be in the R&L center training the new crop?  Or do Aunts get permanently assigned to the one group they train?... And in Canada, why is Luke always moping around doing nothing of importance?  Yes, he's a refugee but can't he get a job?- even if just a volunteer job at the refugee center?  I know there's been a LOT of discussion about him, and he never bothered me before but if they show him looking useless one more time I'm going to have a real problem with him.

Come on writers- you have so much material to work with and all we keep getting are flashbacks.  Enough already.

[marinw]

So what happened to June’s voiceovers? That was a choice the writers made, I am wondering why.