S19.E23: Remember Me & S19.E24: Remember Me Too

[Josette]

If the cartel didn't want Lourdes prosecuted, why did they let Miguel testify?   I was really hoping the fact that he was testifying meant he was innocent, but he turned out to be the monster Olivia said he must be.  Of course.

[TVForever]

2 hours ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Stone relocated to NYC to care for his family, Ben  and Pamela 

 

 

Now they're both dead.

 

Tho I enjoy looking at him and the voice, no reason for the guy to stay now.

 

 

:shrugs shoulders:

Wait. Ben Stone the father? Was his death part of the show's storyline? What happened? Sorry to have missed that. Loved that character!(although things I later learned about the actor left me scratching my head; but's that's a different story)

My main draw to Chicago Law was realizing that Chris Stone was the son of Ben Stone from L&O:Original Recipe, still in my mind/heart as the Greatest Show Ever. Very little was ever made of the connection, so I was glad to hear that the character was moved to SVU when CL got cancelled. 

[Xeliou66]

56 minutes ago, TVForever said:

Wait. Ben Stone the father? Was his death part of the show's storyline? What happened? Sorry to have missed that. Loved that character!(although things I later learned about the actor left me scratching my head; but's that's a different story)

My main draw to Chicago Law was realizing that Chris Stone was the son of Ben Stone from L&O:Original Recipe, still in my mind/heart as the Greatest Show Ever. Very little was ever made of the connection, so I was glad to hear that the character was moved to SVU when CL got cancelled. 

It’s Peter Stone, not Chris Stone, and it was Chicago Justice, not Chicago Law. Yes Ben Stone is Peter and Pamela’s dad, it was revealed Ben died shortly before The Undiscovered Country, where we saw his funeral where Jack McCoy gave the eulogy. That’s why Peter came to NYC and McCoy asked him to be the special prosecutor in Barba’s trial and after Barba resigned McCoy offered Stone his job and Stone accepted so he could be closer to his sister. I love the connection to the mothership, and it’s my favorite show ever as well. 

I’m concerned that since Stone now has no one left in NY, he will start spending more time with Benson and developing a close relationship with her like the one Barba had. I do not want to see Benson destroy yet another ADA’s objectivity and have another unprofessional relationship with them. And please do not have Benson and Stone start sleeping together, that would be nauseating. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I hope to God these writers don't try to force Benson and Stone on us. Ugh

Hope you're prepared to lose your faith. ;-|

I thought sure they'd be screwing by the end of this season but it looks like they're going to save it for next season. Olivia and Noah will be like the family Peter no longer has. Ugh indeed.

[Maximum Taco]

Ugh, this was the freaking worst. 

I was really hoping Olivia was being smart and trying to get a crazy woman to give up her gun while she was attempting to execute an innocent man. But no St. Benson's Holy Gut just tells her who rapists are now, even with absolutely no proof or even circumstantial evidence. Why even have trials anymore when St. Benson's Holy Gut can prove guilt without all the cost to the state? Just rename the show Law and Olivia's Gut and be done with it. 

Holy freaking hell, I remember when I liked this show and didn't just hate watch it. Those were good times. 

[SuzieQ]

30 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Hope you're prepared to lose your faith. ;-|

I thought sure they'd be screwing by the end of this season but it looks like they're going to save it for next season. Olivia and Noah will be like the family Peter no longer has. Ugh indeed.

I'm gagging, but unfortunately I think you nailed it!

[Xantar]

14 hours ago, Fiero425 said:

Well Olivia's truly lost her mind! Lourdes is the victim, but the owner of that apartment had his head bashed in by this b!tch and died on the operating table! Olivia calls her the victim! "Thanks Liv!" ;-)

He didn't make it! She should be done regardless of her tragic circumstances! She didn't need to whack him that hard the 2nd time! ;-(

Don't you know, rape victims are allowed to do anything! Remember the airline pilot who almost crashed her plane because she was so emotionally distraught? But she was raped, so it's ok!

So let's list all the police fuckery just in the first half.

1. SVU gets called to an active hostage situation despite no sexual assault taking place.
2. Benson, who is the commanding officer, personally goes looking for the perpetrator and the hostage. Fin is her subordinate, but he's coordinating the search.
3. Benson's partner gets caught.
4. Benson gives up her gun.
5. Fin realizes Benson is in trouble, but he doesn't know which apartment she's in. Because she didn't tell him where she was going?
6. Back-up takes an absurdly long time to arrive.

Yeah, that's when I stopped watching.

[LittleIggy]

5 hours ago, Josette said:

If the cartel didn't want Lourdes prosecuted, why did they let Miguel testify?   I was really hoping the fact that he was testifying meant he was innocent, but he turned out to be the monster Olivia said he must be.  Of course.

I recorded the last hour and came here to see if it was worth watching. Guess not. I wanted Miguel to be innocent because that would make for a more complicated case. Too much to hope for. BTW, did Lourdes pack heat all the time on the very off chance that she would run across her rapist/trafficker?

Can they send Olivia to Puerto Rico with Gabby (CF) and Natalie (CM)? And no I have nothing against Puerto Rico! ?

Edited May 24, 2018 by LittleIggy

[Bexx88]

2 hours ago, TVForever said:

Wait. Ben Stone the father? Was his death part of the show's storyline? What happened? Sorry to have missed that. Loved that character!(although things I later learned about the actor left me scratching my head; but's that's a different story)

My main draw to Chicago Law was realizing that Chris Stone was the son of Ben Stone from L&O:Original Recipe, still in my mind/heart as the Greatest Show Ever. Very little was ever made of the connection, so I was glad to hear that the character was moved to SVU when CL got cancelled. 

I feel like that's a perfect indicator of just how bland Stone is. Despite a full series to himself and an excessively drawn out personal plot in another series, he's still "uh, what's his name? Dave? Steve?"

[Maximum Taco]

37 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

BTW, did Lourdes pack heat all the time on the very off chance that she would run across her rapist/trafficker?

Yeah. She mentioned during the trial that she always carried. 

I think it was more for protection then to run into Miguel though. 

[QueenMab]

Getting Sam Waterston on would have cost more$$ and this show already had a cast of thousands. Olivet was already there and the perfect one to console Stone. She and Ben, I take it, were more than just "friends", and I wonder if maybe that's why it wasn't her. Still...she is the expert. Should have been Olivet.

....but MH won't give up that last shot of her being all heart.

[jcbrown]

Good lord, this was horrible. And it felt like six hours long.

[SuzieQ]

1 minute ago, jcbrown said:

 And it felt like six hours long.

Seriously!

[slowpoked]

So much potential but it just went wayward to prove - as always - that St. Benson is correct in the end. I'm just glad that Stone didn't give in to Olivia's gut feeling and repeatedly told her to give him evidence to back up her claims, or else he will do his job as he's supposed to do (what a novel concept). I wonder how long that will last though.

So many failures in this episode. For one, how did the camera transmit into a live feed to Miguel's phone??? Does it do that automatically?! For what purpose though? Is it because there's rape or some sex orgy  that routinely goes in Jorge's place that Miguel watches?! And yes, of course, conveniently, he gets tied up right in front of the camera. That would have been more plausible if Lourdes set up the live feed herself, which I thought to be the case, but I was wrong when she took down the camera. 

So Miguel stands by his innocence after everything that Lourdes did to him, yet, one threat from Olivia "You better watch your back..." gets him to break down. It would have been better writing if he really was innocent, and while the terrible things that happened to Lourdes were real, she had a bad case of mistaken identity.

I know this is SVU, so a lot is looney tunes, but can it really be plausible that with Miguel traveling illegally a lot of times to Mexico City before he got his DACA status, that he didn't ping in any of the government agencies - ICE, Homeland, FBI, NYPD, etc.???? I thought that was incredulous, but scary if it happens in real life.

Edited May 24, 2018 by slowpoked

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, QueenMab said:

Getting Sam Waterston on would have cost more$$ and this show already had a cast of thousands. Olivet was already there and the perfect one to console Stone. She and Ben, I take it, were more than just "friends", and I wonder if maybe that's why it wasn't her. Still...she is the expert. Should have been Olivet.

....but MH won't give up that last shot of her being all heart.

How do you take it that Olivet and Ben were more than just friends? Nothing was ever implied between them. Olivet once slept with a police detective that she counseled (it could’ve been Logan) but nothing was implied between her and Ben Stone. Olivet would’ve been the perfect person to talk to Peter at the end of the episode, since she’s trained for that, but everything has to revolve around St Benson. 

And I don’t think this show has a cast of thousands, plenty of people want a new detective. 

[wknt3]

15 hours ago, QueenMab said:

Best and only scene worth watching....Finn and Carisi standing like the Earp brothers at Tombstone shooting the shit out of the cartel guys. Sweet!

Nah there were several scenes worth watching. Fin in the redneck bar, Carisi in the squadroom, Stone's interaction with the other lawyers, and a few others. One of the major improvements this year is that even the train wrecks usually have something worth watching. Nothing could redeem this. Even if they revealed they smuggled the girls into the country stuffed in basketballs it would have sucked, but there are several scenes I would watch again. Unfortunately they were usually followed by something you couldn't pay me to watch a second time.

 

10 hours ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Stone relocated to NYC to care for his family, Ben  and Pamela 

 

 

Now they're both dead.

 

Tho I enjoy looking at him and the voice, no reason for the guy to stay now.

 

 

:shrugs shoulders:

 

7 hours ago, TVForever said:

Wait. Ben Stone the father? Was his death part of the show's storyline? What happened? Sorry to have missed that. Loved that character!(although things I later learned about the actor left me scratching my head; but's that's a different story)

My main draw to Chicago Law was realizing that Chris Stone was the son of Ben Stone from L&O:Original Recipe, still in my mind/heart as the Greatest Show Ever. Very little was ever made of the connection, so I was glad to hear that the character was moved to SVU when CL got cancelled. 

 

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It’s Peter Stone, not Chris Stone, and it was Chicago Justice, not Chicago Law. Yes Ben Stone is Peter and Pamela’s dad, it was revealed Ben died shortly before The Undiscovered Country, where we saw his funeral where Jack McCoy gave the eulogy. That’s why Peter came to NYC and McCoy asked him to be the special prosecutor in Barba’s trial and after Barba resigned McCoy offered Stone his job and Stone accepted so he could be closer to his sister. I love the connection to the mothership, and it’s my favorite show ever as well. 

I’m concerned that since Stone now has no one left in NY, he will start spending more time with Benson and developing a close relationship with her like the one Barba had. I do not want to see Benson destroy yet another ADA’s objectivity and have another unprofessional relationship with them. And please do not have Benson and Stone start sleeping together, that would be nauseating. 

 

What @Xeliou66 said. If you are a fan of Ben Stone @TVForever you really should seek out "The Undiscovered Country" and watch McCoy's eulogy for Stone. And then watch it like 4 or 5 more times instead of watching the rest of the episode. And yeah it is pretty obvious that Stone will come to realize that our elite squad of detectives investigating sexually based offenses is his family now and we will alternate between Stone acting like an ADA in court and his office and then flirting with Benson at the bar every episode.

[kicotan]

So much political posturing/preaching, terrible dialogue and so many double standards.  I weep in memory of Law & Order:SVU at this point.

When St. Olivia breaks the news that Lourdes killed the apartment owner, she knocks on the window to summon Stone, informs him of the death and actually has the audacity to ask him “What does this mean for Lourdes?”.  Really?  She has no clue?

[HunterHunted]

This episode was interminable and terrible. I don't know why they just don't dump the Law & Order aspects of the show and formally turn it into the Rape Truther ala the Ghost Whisperer. "Olivia was born with the ability to sense a rape and find rapists. To help herself, she has to help them. Rape Truther only on NBC." There used to be a time when the this show and the franchise used to be smart enough to have the DAs pick up on Miguel's cigar slip up, but now...

Secondly, Lourdes lawyer bringing up Miguel's Dreamer status and "lies" only undercuts her insanity defense. If Miguel did this to her, then she's going for an extreme emotional disturbance defense, which means that the defendant was so inflamed that they were unable to control his or her actions. By bringing up the truth of the rape and trying to get Liv to corroborate Lourdes' PTSD, her lawyer was tossing her insanity defense out the window and actually arguing an emotional disturbance defense.

Thirdly, it doesn't matter if Miguel actually raped her because her underlying action of tying Miguel up, beating him, and threatening to murder him is a crime--a felony. After that, taking 2 police officers hostage and beating a man to death means that this is felony murder. The only thing that was going to get her out of it was an insanity defense.

Fourth, if the Cartel has reach enough to have Lourdes threatened in prison, do they need to go the next step and threaten Stone and then murder his sister? I don't think so. Also isn't it much more likely that the Cartel got involved because of the dead guy and not Miguel.

3 hours ago, slowpoked said:

So many failures in this episode. For one, how did the camera transmit into a live feed to Miguel's phone??? Does it do that automatically?! For what purpose though? Is it because there's rape or some sex orgy  that routinely goes in Jorge's place that Miguel watches?! And yes, of course, conveniently, he gets tied up right in front of the camera. That would have been more plausible if Lourdes set up the live feed herself, which I thought to be the case, but I was wrong when she took down the camera.

No part of the live feed made any sense. It would have made much more sense if Miguel had set up the camera system for the owner and was beta testing it to see if it was working and if they had only ended up there as a brief stop on their way back to his place.

3 hours ago, slowpoked said:

So Miguel stands by his innocence after everything that Lourdes did to him, yet, one threat from Olivia "You better watch your back..." gets him to break down. It would have been better writing if he really was innocent, and while the terrible things that happened to Lourdes were real, she had a bad case of mistaken identity.

I know this is SVU, so a lot is looney tunes, but can it really be plausible that with Miguel traveling illegally a lot of times to Mexico City before he got his DACA status, that he didn't ping in any of the government agencies - ICE, Homeland, FBI, NYPD, etc.???? I thought that was incredulous, but scary if it happens in real life.

I would have much rather this have been a case of mistaken identity. By making Miguel actually guilty, this show is actually endorsing the illegal kidnap and torture of alleged rapists. Not ok.

I actually HATE Mariska Hargitay because of what her ego has done to this show. 

[slowpoked]

6 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I actually HATE Mariska Hargitay because of what her ego has done to this show. 

There were a lot of cringe-able lines last night but the worst was (paraphrasing):

Stone: She is entitled to justice, but not to take it into her own hands...

Benson: But she is entitled to reclaim what was once hers....

WTF was that??? So Benson just basically said Lourdes can do whatever shit she wants to do as long as it's in the name of reclaiming her diginity!

And SHE had the audacity to walk out on Stone, not the other way around...

[kicotan]

5 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

This episode was interminable and terrible. I don't know why they just don't dump the Law & Order aspects of the show and formally turn it into the Rape Truther ala the Ghost Whisperer. "Olivia was born with the ability to sense a rape and find rapists. To help herself, she has to help them. Rape Truther only on NBC." There used to be a time when the this show and the franchise used to be smart enough to have the DAs pick up on Miguel's cigar slip up, but now...

I seem to remember a time when Law & Order episodes were often loosely based on some real crime that actually made headlines.  It seems now the thrust is creating stories about crimes that could happen because of some political issue.  St. Olivia’s ability to sense rapists and personally pardon all crimes of their victims sounds like she should be cast in a Marvel or DC Comics series as a superhero...and leave the Law & Order series altogether.

[jrlr]

After rarely watching this show for the past three years of soap opera, I tuned in to the 2-hour season finale (recorded).  I fast-forwarded through most of the first hour of that wretched hostage porn and hysteria, hoping the second hour would be better.  I gave up on it fifteen minutes in, feeling irritated, bored and pissed off at myself for the time I wasted.  What a pile of crap this once-great show has become.  And to think it's outlasting the original L&O, which deserved a 20th season.  This certainly doesn't. 

[Picture It. Sicily]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

How do you take it that Olivet and Ben were more than just friends? Nothing was ever implied between them. Olivet once slept with a police detective that she counseled (it could’ve been Logan) but nothing was implied between her and Ben Stone. Olivet would’ve been the perfect person to talk to Peter at the end of the episode, since she’s trained for that, but everything has to revolve around St Benson. 

And I don’t think this show has a cast of thousands, plenty of people want a new detective. 

The OP seems convinced that women are just sluts. According to them Benson has fucked every male character on the show. She's also fat, old and ugly.

[Medicine Crow]

OK guys, I'm getting the impression that I should just delete the recording.  Two hours is a big chunk of my evening, so ....

[Picture It. Sicily]

19 hours ago, QueenMab said:

Well....twenty minutes in and WTF am I watching? This pos is already all over the map. I think even my cable doesn't like it. It keeps freezing the screen every so often. So....Benson gets to spend season 20 banging an ADA who's taller ( for once) but about 20 years younger. And for the record....I absolutely DETEST episodes that are just a bunch of nuts and a cop stuck in a room with each other overacting and being morons. It's like the writers wanted to go on vacay and they just throw everybody in a room and......whatever. A half hour in and we have another Benson pukefest. And could Benson get uglier? Just.....big, fat titted, and ugly as a mud fence. The 13 yr old runaway hairdo is just....absurd. I'm sorry but I keep wanting someone to punch her in the head for being an asshole. Jaysus!

The Benson is ugly and fat rants are getting tiresome.

[Gigglepuff]

Yoo hoo, writers... if you're reading this, you guys did such a good job of making Benson tolerable again since Stone arrived, but whatever magic mojo you had going was blown last night. So, more late season 19 Benson and no more of season 19 finale Benson again, please. 

[Bunnyette]

21 hours ago, TVForever said:

I haven't watched this show in about 2 seasons because Olivia had become insufferable, and every other character on the show had become in service to her (especially Barba, who once was my favorite character). I watched tonight because I'm traveling in an area with few channels and this was one of them. Not only have things not changed, they've gotten worse. I'm not even finishing the episode.

By the way, is the guy EVER not guilty on this show?

This is a show that makes me sympathetic to the “villain.  Loved the scene in the warehouse during the evil Mexican cartel member holding stones sister hostage, where the cop tells Olivia to go away. 

[WendyCR72]

41 minutes ago, jrlr said:

And to think it's outlasting the original L&O, which deserved a 20th season.  This certainly doesn't. 

Well, the Mothership did get 20 seasons. Thinking you meant the record-breaking S21 it was denied. There, I agree. Time will tell if SVU does get to S21. (But I'll be with you thinking the Mothership more than deserved that honor more...)

[wknt3]

12 hours ago, dttruman said:

Do use suppose there might be a little spark of controversy here, where there might be a struggle for control of the major plot line now? Maybe Churnuchin will now be given full autonomy on the story line and script approval. I hope if he gets control, Benson gets demoted  and he brings Munch back.  Munch is put in charge of SVU and he soon begins a relationship with Benson. Now that would be payback.

Unfortunately it is obvious that there is only so far Chernuchin or any showrunner can go. There is plenty of evidence that a substantial portion of the audience is only turning in for Benson and if she leaves it's over so Mariska has a lot of pull. I think it's obvious that he is pushing back some within the limits of that reality and has gotten some of what he wanted at the price of giving in to some of her demands. I think next season will probably be like the second half of this season where we get something resembling a stripped down version of classic SVU with reminders of the franchise's rich history and occasional sops to Mariska's ego. I could probably live with that if you basically contain the badness in bombs like "Something Happened" and this POS finale in exchange for decent episodes. I think the only thing that changes it is if NBC decides to renew it next year with an announcement that it is the final season and Chernuchin or Rene Balcer or some other experienced showrunner is essentially given a mandate to prioritize quality and try to restore the brand name.
 

19 minutes ago, jrlr said:

After rarely watching this show for the past three years of soap opera, I tuned in to the 2-hour season finale (recorded).  I fast-forwarded through most of the first hour of that wretched hostage porn and hysteria, hoping the second hour would be better.  I gave up on it fifteen minutes in, feeling irritated, bored and pissed off at myself for the time I wasted.  What a pile of crap this once-great show has become.  And to think it's outlasting the original L&O, which deserved a 20th season.  This certainly doesn't. 

It almost certainly is outlasting the original, in part because everyone at NBC Universal realizes they screwed (and screwed up with) the  mothership, but it should be noted for the record that the original DID get a 20th season. Dick Wolf desperately wanted a 21st season to break Gunsmoke's record and still does.

 

3 minutes ago, Medicine Crow said:

OK guys, I'm getting the impression that I should just delete the recording.  Two hours is a big chunk of my evening, so ....

If you FF through every scene Benson isn't in it's actually not a bad 20 minutes of television! I personally would recommend watching the teaser minus the Benoah dreck and then deleting it unless you are a masochist. Hmmmm potential SVU/Criminal Minds crossover - a masochistic serial killer who forces his victims to watch a once great procedural that is now painful to watch until they beg for death...

[jrlr]

Thanks for the correction - since I was a faithful L&O mothership viewer, I should have known it ran for 20!

[shapeshifter]

19 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Yeah. She mentioned during the trial that she always carried. 

I think it was more for protection then to run into Miguel though. 

A nanny caring for 2 little kids was packing heat the whole time?
Actually, that almost sounds like a set up for one of the early season episodes. 
It would open with the little boy having shot either the nanny, his sister, or himself.
The plot could still retain the questioning of the other, obviously too-terrified-to-talk nannies, finding and freeing the trafficked girls, and a shootout with Finn, Carisi, and the Cartel.
Olivia would stay behind the desk and behind the one-way interrogation glass a la Cragen of the old days.
Stone would do all the courtroom scenes. No sisters would be harmed in the making of the episode.
See, writers, it doesn't have to be that hard.
And it doesn't have to take an hour and a half plus another half hour of commercials.

Edited May 25, 2018 by shapeshifter
attempted syntax improvement

[Xeliou66]

It still pisses me off that the mothership didn’t get season 21 because it’s quality was outstanding in season 20, especially compared to what SVU has become. I do think this season was a lot better than season 18, there was much more variety in the storylines, the other characters besides Benson were used better, Stone is a huge improvement over what Barba became, we got to see a lot of returning characters, also I didn’t think the episodes were as preachy overall as season 18, they had their moments but overall there was more balance.

However, Benson and MH’s gigantic ego has harmed the show badly, Benson is completely unlikable now, her extreme emotional bias makes her a poor squad leader and an unlikable person, and to be honest she gives females in leadership positions a bad reputation regardless of how much MH thinks she’s helping the world by playing Benson. I’m beyond sick of Benson being front and center all the time and of the stupid Benson in danger/Benson saves the world/Benson and Noah stories. 

[misstwpherecool]

If they are going to insert political subtext one topic at a time please.

What was the killed owner of the apartment role in all this other than a client with a dark web camera set up?

Emergency response crews couldn't have taken up sniper or better/more positions to take out the bad guys from different angles?

The guest star actress did a good job setting aside the story. As did the badie.

But the sanctimony followed by more sanctimony with cliche infusions of 'gut instincts'.

The cop taken hostage should be furious with Benson for giving up her weapon, I thought that was rule one, never give up or lose that weapon.  Future internal affairs investigation?

Whew, glad I don't watch every week.

Edited May 25, 2018 by misstwpherecool

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

The cop taken hostage should be furious with Benson for giving up her weapon

Actually, when Lourdes told Olivia to put down her gun or else she would shoot the hostage cop, I was surprised that the hostage cop begged Olivia to comply because he had a wife and kid. I was expecting the hostage cop to heroically tell Olivia to not give in to Lourdes' demand (but then Olivia would put down the gun anyway). So, now that you mention it, I guess the hostage cop's begging was supposed to make Olivia blameless for putting down her weapon.

[ForeverAlone]

I...don't know what to think about this finale. It certainly had elements from previous episodes that I don't particularly like. I've never been a huge fan of the human trafficking cases, and they seemed to especially proliferate in seasons 15 and 16. For long stretches of this episode, it really felt like there was hardly any team interaction. It was just too many impassioned speeches filled with political overtones from guest stars  and very little actual investigation or case work. It seemed like an excuse to revisit the oppressive environment from "Something Happened", yet another solo Olivia hostage situation (I've lost count on those), along with further burnishing Olivia's crown as the patron saint of victims. 

One thing I did like about this episode is that for a good chunk of the episode, I didn't actually know if Miguel was truly Lourdes' rapist, or if it was just an unfortunate case of mistaken identity. Sure there were hints that there was something dark going on, but no actual confirmation until the end when Miguel snapped and confessed to it all (which was awfully convenient for them to build a case, because he had so steadfastly maintained his innocence prior to that). I do wish there had been some actual investigation into Miguel. Sure we heard about it, but it was all conducted off screen. This is a team that has managed to take down large groups of traffickers in the past, and yet they could turn up nothing on Miguel or the dude with a bashed in head? Granted, that was all just an excuse to head the story in the direction it did, but it did feel like a cheap shortcut.

I definitely was not there for Olivia's feeling over fact stance that she had for the entire episode, and especially how that feeling was vindicated in the end, rather than building a case with objective evidence. I get that Olivia is certainly not objective when it comes to this sort of trauma (which really makes her suspect on running a squad where she is confronted with sexual violence and victims' pain on a daily basis), but she has been in law enforcement for decades and knows that prosecutors can't build a case without facts to support it. The fact that she kept pushing and pushing Peter to take Miguel to trial without any objective evidence to support his alleged crimes became tiresome after a while. I do give credit to Peter for standing firm and pushing back, because she was in the wrong in this particular case. If she wants Miguel to be prosecuted, she needs to do her actual job and find evidence to support Lourdes' story. And it was especially annoying, because just a few weeks ago, she put a domestic abuse victim at risk (who was ultimately killed), because Olivia insisted on following the law without any other consideration. But in this particular case, Olivia's feelings are supposed to triumph over the law. It's an annoying inconsistency trotted out whenever it is convenient to the character. Plus it gives the impression that certain victims' pain is more "worthy" of her Olivianess than others. But honestly, the writing has so veered away from any sense of realism that it is hamstringing the believability of the show. Olivia really needs to be reassigned to another department or retired. She simply lacks the emotional objectivity to be effective in her job. In episodes like these, it shows that she has never really gotten over William Lewis and shouldn't be in charge of a group of SVU detectives. Fin was much more rational and much more of the team leader than Olivia was. While the writers are probably thinking they are showing just how empathetic Olivia is and supportive of victims, I honestly think they are doing Olivia a disservice, because they are showing that she is emotionally incapable of doing her job. Of course I do agree with those that say this is all in service to Mariska's ego and trying to showcase Olivia, to the detriment of the overall realism of the show.

And I must say, that utterly ridiculous and unnecessary ending with the shootout between the NYPD and Diego that resulted in Peter's sister being gunned down was completely over the top. It really was unnecessary and other than giving Peter some manpain, I can't figure out what was the point. I think anyone associated with the cartel wouldn't be stupid enough to threaten an ADA, particularly in this case, because they were threatening Peter's sister, because they wanted him to drop the charges on Lourdes so they could deal with her themselves. If they wanted to kill Lourdes, I'm sure there were ways to get to her. What was the point of bringing the full force of American law enforcement on their heads? And that stupid, suicidal bravado that was the pointless shootout. There was absolutely no need to kill Pam, especially in that manner. It just felt cheap and exploitative, and a good excuse to end the season with Peter crying in Olivia's arms. Booooo!!

Edited May 25, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[Zoe]

Gawd, that was awful. I hate that they validated the righteous Benson.

I liked that the SWAT guy shut down Benson again though (that was the same guy, right?).

[dttruman]

5 hours ago, Zoe said:

I liked that the SWAT guy shut down Benson again though (that was the same guy, right?).

I don't think it was, because it may have been a different jurisdiction. But like you, it was nice to see her get shut down like that. I wonder if Chernuchin had the writers put that in, to show MH as a metaphor that she can't have everything.

[dttruman]

11 hours ago, slowpoked said:

Stone: She is entitled to justice, but not to take it into her own hands...

Benson: But she is entitled to reclaim what was once hers....

WTF was that??? So Benson just basically said Lourdes can do whatever shit she wants to do as long as it's in the name of reclaiming her diginity!

And SHE had the audacity to walk out on Stone, not the other way around...

Well said!!

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

One thing I did like about this episode is that for a good chunk of the episode, I didn't actually know if Miguel was truly Lourdes' rapist, or if it was just an unfortunate case of mistaken identity.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your entire post, @ForeverAlone, but regarding the ambiguity of Miguel's culpability, I don't think they did enough. It could have been a great episode if they had done more to make it questionable and kept us guessing. Instead I found it just so confusing that the ultimate reveal was more of a "oh. So that's his story," intead of an "Ah-ha!"

ETA: I think the confusion about Miguel's guilt and this more subtle reveal could have worked if it was its own episode (with perhaps more investigation going on into the "dark net" content and the owner of the condo) and then Stone's sister's demise had its own episode.

It's like there were two writing teams: one for the season-long Stone/sister arc, and another team for the COTWs.

Edited May 25, 2018 by shapeshifter

[txhorns79]

Quote

Good lord, this was horrible. And it felt like six hours long.

I think it was because the first hour was essentially one scene repeated 4000 times: 

"Lourdes: You raped me! 

Miguel: I don't know you, but I'm sorry for what happened to you!"

[slowpoked]

10 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

One thing I did like about this episode is that for a good chunk of the episode, I didn't actually know if Miguel was truly Lourdes' rapist, or if it was just an unfortunate case of mistaken identity. 

I like that part too. While it was just him and Lourdes, and even when Benson joined them, I'm still guessing as to whether or not he's the bad guy. When he was saying I'll say anything you want, I thought he really wasn't the villain. And his anguish seemed genuine. Poor guy ended up peeing on himself. But you know, cartel guys get hardened as time goes on. He just started as the truck driver but became more evil as the syndicate went on. In hindsight, the reason why he probably didn't remember raping Lourdes (that part I can believe) was he probably raped a lot of those girls that he doesn't remember them by face anymore, and why he can't remember killing Lourdes' friends was that he also killed a lot of them, and to him they were just animals he's shepherding from one place to another.

Which is why the "confession" to Olivia was such a copout. Of course, St. Olivia gets the confession. 

[Xeliou66]

I knew all along Miguel was guilty, because women are always victims now and Benson is never wrong and she said from the start Miguel was guilty. It would’ve been a great twist if he was innocent, but SVU can never have Benson be wrong and they would rather push an agenda than have a good twist. 

[Filmfanatic]

Besides being one of the most boring SVU episodes of all time, the basic plot line struck me as an obvious ripoff of “Death and the Maiden”, a film starring Sigourney Weaver and Ben Kingsley, itself based on a play. I had no doubt as to the guilt of  Miguel once I saw the similarities to the movie.  Sigourney, a victim of torture under a brutal regime holds her supposed torturer hostage. Is she delusional or not?  The man always played Schubert’s “Death and the Maiden”; I seem to remember Lourdes bringing up a song she always heard being played(zoned out due to boredom). At one point in the movie the suspected torturer is threatened with being thrown off a cliff; Miguel on the window ledge....the movie was riveting, this episode, not so much. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Filmfanatic

[JeezumCrow]

On 5/24/2018 at 12:07 PM, Maximum Taco said:

Ugh, this was the freaking worst. 

I was really hoping Olivia was being smart and trying to get a crazy woman to give up her gun while she was attempting to execute an innocent man. But no St. Benson's Holy Gut just tells her who rapists are now, even with absolutely no proof or even circumstantial evidence. Why even have trials anymore when St. Benson's Holy Gut can prove guilt without all the cost to the state? Just rename the show Law and Olivia's Gut and be done with it. 

Holy freaking hell, I remember when I liked this show and didn't just hate watch it. Those were good times. 

I simply cannot like this post enough. The finale was horrible and it’s put a bad taste in my mouth for next season.

 

I kept hoping that Lourdes was a crazy lady who would randomly pick up guys in bars, accuse them of rape, and murder them (which is such a weird thing to hope, haha) but noooooo, we have to have the Nth episode of Olivia’s infallibility. And then she practically has an E.T. moment putting her hand on Lourdes’s chest at the end. Gag. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Filmfanatic said:

Besides being one of the most boring SVU episodes of all time, the basic plot line struck me as an obvious ripoff of “Death and the Maiden”, a film starring Sigourney Weaver and Ben Kingsley, itself based on a play. I had no doubt as to the guilt of  Miguel once I saw the similarities to the movie.  Sigourney, a victim of torture under a brutal regime holds her supposed torturer hostage. Is she delusional or not?  The man always played Schubert’s “Death and the Maiden”; I seem to remember Lourdes bringing up a song she always heard being played(zoned out due to boredom). At one point in the movie the suspected torturer is threatened with being thrown off a cliff; Miguel on the window ledge....the movie was riveting, this episode, not so much. 

So not even original (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_the_Maiden_(film)). 

[Scott]

On 5/24/2018 at 9:07 AM, Maximum Taco said:

I was really hoping Olivia was being smart and trying to get a crazy woman to give up her gun while she was attempting to execute an innocent man. But no St. Benson's Holy Gut just tells her who rapists are now, even with absolutely no proof or even circumstantial evidence. Why even have trials anymore when St. Benson's Holy Gut can prove guilt without all the cost to the state? Just rename the show Law and Olivia's Gut and be done with it. 

Pretty much my exact thoughts, although I was going with the Eyes of Justice.  I have never been rooting against a victim, hoping that she was wrong and Miguel was innocent, more than this, solely because I wanted Benson to finally get some comeuppance.  I should have known that would never happen in today's SVU...

[ForeverAlone]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So not even original (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_the_Maiden_(film)). 

Oh no, not at all. And this episode was more in line with the film rather than the play the movie was based. In the play, there was ambiguity as to whether or not the accused man was actually guilty, or if it was a case of mistaken identity. I had seen this comparison on another site before I watched the episode. 

I personally think it would have been better if either Lourdes' identification had remained ambiguous, OR if the team had discovered evidence to actually support it. Instead the show took the lazy way out, because Miguel eagerly confessed after one little tongue lashing from Olivia. I mean, this guy kept to his story after being tortured and even under strong cross examination under oath. But one little minor threat from Olivia is all it takes to break him? Like I said before, it was lazy and convenient storytelling, because either the show didn't want to leave it ambiguous (and thus leave the judgment of Olivia's judgment to be ambiguous), or because they didn't want to bother writing in the necessary scenes it would take for the team to investigate and solidly build a case against Miguel. Plus of course the writers/producers were hell bent on having Peter's mentally ill sister murdered in front of him (after she finally recognized him as her brother), because...reasons. 

Overall the writing was oddly paced. We had way too much hostage torture in the first half and way too little investigating/case building in the second half. So we had this painfully slow and repetitive start, only to crash into a contrived and unnecessary ending.

[jcbrown]

2 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

Overall the writing was oddly paced. We had way too much hostage torture in the first half and way too little investigating/case building in the second half. So we had this painfully slow and repetitive start, only to crash into a contrived and unnecessary ending.

I think was exactly the issue with the episode. Interminable torture porn and angsty faces in the first hour, very little interaction among the squad, and a tacked on ending.

[lala2]

I hated this episode and Benson's attitude so much that I was hoping beyond hope that Lourdes was wrong, and that that Miguel was NOT her trafficker. I really wanted Benson to learn a lesson and be proven wrong b/c she was off the rails in this episode. I'm so happy I wasn't alone in wanting Olivia to be wrong.  To me, that would have made the episode much better b/c Olivia has clearly lost all her objectivity.  She shouldn't be leading this squad anymore.  Fin should be leading.  The Olivia of old wouldn't hesitate to arrest a rape victim who exacted her own justice against her abuser, but this Olivia wants Lourdes set free despite her holding ppl hostage, torturing someone, and murdering someone AND there being no evidence to support her claims about Miguel. I'm so angry they made Olivia right about him. I really wanted him to be innocent and for it to be a case of mistaken identity. When that cigar scene happened, I said, "Screw it" and muted the show. I didn't even want to watch Olivia be right about everything. 

As a lawyer, I was also fully on Stone's side.  They had NO evidence that Miguel was Lourdes's trafficker. Everything Stone said made sense, and nothing Benson said did. Stone needs evidence to prosecute, Olivia. You used to know that. What is going on w/her character? Plus, why did Olivia have to be the one in the hostage situation? Why not Finn? Or Carisi? I'm sick of Olivia. I'm sick of her crusades. I'm sick of her always being right. I'm sick of the show being entirely focused on her. They need to let some of the other characters - esp. Finn - shine more regularly. I don't know about the larger audience but I certainly don't watch for Olivia. I've overdosed on Olivia at this point !

[preeya]

16 minutes ago, lala2 said:

I hated this episode and Benson's attitude so much that I was hoping beyond hope that Lourdes was wrong, and that that Miguel was NOT her trafficker. I really wanted Benson to learn a lesson and be proven wrong b/c she was off the rails in this episode. I'm so happy I wasn't alone in wanting Olivia to be wrong.  To me, that would have made the episode much better b/c Olivia has clearly lost all her objectivity.  She shouldn't be leading this squad anymore.  Fin should be leading.  The Olivia of old wouldn't hesitate to arrest a rape victim who exacted her own justice against her abuser, but this Olivia wants Lourdes set free despite her holding ppl hostage, torturing someone, and murdering someone AND there being no evidence to support her claims about Miguel. I'm so angry they made Olivia right about him. I really wanted him to be innocent and for it to be a case of mistaken identity. When that cigar scene happened, I said, "Screw it" and muted the show. I didn't even want to watch Olivia be right about everything. 

As a lawyer, I was also fully on Stone's side.  They had NO evidence that Miguel was Lourdes's trafficker. Everything Stone said made sense, and nothing Benson said did. Stone needs evidence to prosecute, Olivia. You used to know that. What is going on w/her character? Plus, why did Olivia have to be the one in the hostage situation? Why not Finn? Or Carisi? I'm sick of Olivia. I'm sick of her crusades. I'm sick of her always being right. I'm sick of the show being entirely focused on her. They need to let some of the other characters - esp. Finn - shine more regularly. I don't know about the larger audience but I certainly don't watch for Olivia. I've overdosed on Olivia at this point !

EVERYTHING LALA2  SAID. AND WITH THAT I'M "OVER AND OUT"

[dttruman]

17 hours ago, lala2 said:

She shouldn't be leading this squad anymore.  Fin should be leading.  The Olivia of old wouldn't hesitate to arrest a rape victim who exacted her own justice against her abuser, but this Olivia wants Lourdes set free despite her holding ppl hostage, torturing someone, and murdering someone AND there being no evidence to support her claims about Miguel. I'm so angry they made Olivia right about him. I really wanted him to be innocent and for it to be a case of mistaken identity. When that cigar scene happened, I said, "Screw it" and muted the show. I didn't even want to watch Olivia be right about everything. 

It seems like the writers (and or producers) have a very short memory. Didn't Benson criticize Cabot for breaking and manipulating the law to punish an innocent man at the time in "Sunken Cost Fallacy"? Trying to making Benson this "Always Right" person has really hurt the integrity of the show. They need to go back to the old structure of the show where all the detectives work together objectively to solve a sex crime.

They need to take a hint from the "Seinfeld" show. The show had Jerry's name on it, but the three other main characters (Kramer, George, and Elaine) had as much and maybe more exposure than Jerry. All were memorable, along with many other characters.

Edited May 26, 2018 by dttruman