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S02.E13: Bye

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 I made it through the series. I liked parts of it but most of it felt like a really long after-school special. Tedious in places.  I did not watch the rape of Tyler.  I understand the importance of the issues but I need a palate cleanser.  

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For the longest time I thought/hoped that Chloe was totally onto Bryce and was playing him the whole time in order to trap him into some kind of confession.

That bathroom scene was one of the most jarring things I've ever seen on a TV screen.  The brutality was horrifying but realistically wouldn't he at the very least have suffered a concussion?  I was truly rooting for him to shoot a few people after that though.

I have never liked Hannah, and I liked her less after this season.   Bullying is about being an outcast.  She wasn't an outcast.  She was romantically or physically intimate with most of the people she felt had wronged her and over and over again tried to fit in with the jocks and the cheerleaders.  

There is bullying, and then there is criminally actionable assault.  Most of what this show focuses on involves the latter which isn't the norm.  

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On 6/4/2018 at 8:37 PM, cherenkov said:

I don't find it realistic at all. I have actually found a lot of the "me too" to be overblown. The fact that the show turned it into literally every female character came off as preachy, unrealistic, and bullshit to me.

Because the reality is that Angela is correctly stating that not every instance of being hit on is harassment and Brian over blew it because he was a white knight "nice guy". The entire show went off the rails with me with the "every female is a victim" thing. I find that outright insulting.

I am genuinely happy your experience in life is that it's unrealistic and bullshit, because I'll tell you from my real and actual experiences it's fucking tiresome and exasperating (at the very least) to deal with. I would definitely love to be in the happy minority who has never even been harassed by a man (or boy). The #metoo movement has shown that it is the reality for far too many women, myself (and many women I know) included.

This season jumped the shark for me for other reasons, though. It did have the feeling of an r-rated, bad afterschool special. I am not really sure how they'll salvage the third season at this point as it seems to be pretty well telegraphed.

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I hate how this show became all about the boys and the female characters (and their relationships with each other) were shunted to the side. I hope that changes significantly next season, if there is a next season.

Even though I thought that Bryce's extremely light "sentencing" -- and how the judge victim-blamed Jessica even while giving his verdict -- was maddening, I liked it in that I found it realistic.

I also liked Justin's reactions to Bryce. Even though he was willing to go so far as to get himself in legal trouble in order to tell the truth about Bryce, Bryce apparently still has a pretty strong (emotional) hold over him, given how upset Justin got when Bryce called him "brother" at the dance. I think it makes sense that Justin would still have a lot of strong feelings, too, given how important Bryce was in his life. Without Bryce, Justin's life would really have been unbearable.

In general, I thought Justin's "redemption" was way too heavy-handed, but I also thought that it was one of the better storylines in the season. (go figure!) I really felt for him when Clay asked if he wanted to be adopted and he started crying -- but at the same time, as soon as Clay said that he was OK with the adoption partly because Justin was clean, I knew Justin would start using heroin again. He's going to try and sabotage this because he's right, he is pretty screwed up. Also, maybe Justin isn't worried (?), but I am terrified for his mother! Meth Seth is apparently around, but his mother isn't? Hopefully she took Justin's advice and went into hiding with the like $40 he gave her a few episodes back, but it really seemed like that wasn't her plan. Hopefully she's OK. I also don't see how Justin can be adopted when she still has parental rights, but maybe even declaring the intention to adopt gives the Jensens the ability to have Justin home with them as a foster child? The whole thing is kind of screwy IMO but I guess it ultimately doesn't matter much.

I agree with the posters who say that Taylor's assault was so violent that the possible medical/physical repercussions seemed to overshadow the emotional ones. I wasn't that focused on how he was feeling afterward because I was just like, "go to the ER, now!" I wish they had toned down the physical assault so that the focus wasn't on "how is he alive?!" it was on "how is he feeling?"

Clay talking Taylor down at the dance irritated me, but Clay generally irritates me, so that's nothing new. I find the Jensen family as a whole fairly interesting, but partly because Clay is a self-important brat there, too, and his parents are apparently trying to coddle him and ignore his outbursts/weirdness until it goes away (similar to Taylor's parents struggling to deal with him, I guess -- although at least Taylor is generally polite to them). Clay's BFF, Ghost!Hannah, was not only not working for me, but at a point I even started wondering whether Clay was straight up hallucinating her and whether he's ill. He's taken her death harder than even her parents have, and him sobbing in that group hug at the dance was too much. He and Hannah weren't even that close. Oh, but one thing that I thought was funny was when Justin was watching Clay talk Taylor down and then asked, "this is fucked up, right?!" like he actually wanted an answer. Given that, I get why he didn't tell anybody that Clay had gone to Bryce's house with a gun and threatened a murder-suicide (pretty credibly, too!) -- Justin's perspective is clearly out of whack. But honestly, he should have gone to at least the Jensens about it, similar to how Cyrus went to the school when he saw that Taylor was unstable and a threat. I mean, yes, Justin, it is SUPREMELY fucked up for someone to be waving a gun around threatening to murder people and kill himself. That's something it's worth sounding the alarm on.

The only other storyline I cared about was Jessica's, but I felt like it was way too underdeveloped. There were some really powerful moments (when Jessica was bonding with each of her parents, at the group therapy sessions, at the court), but it was less than the sum of its parts. Nina doesn't feel fleshed out at all as a character, so her and Jessica's friendship always felt "off." (Hopefully Nina will get her own storyline next season and that will make her actions and relationships make more sense). I also didn't really buy the issue between Jessica and Chloe, because Chloe seems to feel some kind of sisterly kinship/competition thing with Jessica that IMO came out of nowhere considering they were never apparently friends previously.

I also don't in a million years believe that Jessica would go into the boys' locker room or the athletic storage room or whatever that was and almost immediately strip down and fuck Justin (while her own boyfriend hangs out with all her friends in the gym next door). That's crazier than anything that Skye ever did while manic, and Skye went to in-patient treatment for months after her manic episode -- and Jessica is if anything generally too sensible rather than too impulsive. I actually thought it was some kind of drug trip that Justin imagined, until the show made it clear that Jessica had actually stepped away from the dance for a while and was refreshing herself in the restroom.

The character that I thought was done the most disservice this season, though, was Sheri. Hopefully it was just that the actress wasn't available, because she really should have been a much bigger part of the season. Although I think the problem wasn't just the actress's availability in any case, because the moments when the show brought her in were also weird and confusing. She just shows up like magic when Justin is having withdrawals, with talk about all her "roommates" in juvy? And then disappears again? I dunno.

Marcus was gross and I wasn't that sad to see him go, but it was bizarre that he vanished, too.

Monty was intriguing at the end there when he suddenly went batshit, but I had him confused with Scott for practically the whole season, so I can't really say anything about either of their storylines.

I've come to really dislike Alex, and I thought that all of Zach's relationships (including with Alex) felt too forced/contrived for me to take seriously.

If there's a third season, I'll probably watch. But this show is weird in that it's addictive to binge and I do feel invested in at least some of the characters, but at the same time, I find it pretty frustrating and contrived, too -- especially when it comes to how the show deals with sexism and misogyny. I think that a lot of the time when the show is trying to comment on sexism and misogyny in a self-aware way, it devolves into just perpetuating it. Like in the way that this season focused so much on the male characters and their relationships and on what sports/school means to them and their dreams -- while treating the female characters as accessories.

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3 MONTHS PROBATION???

Poor Tyler. :( Still bleeding from his assault. God, something needs to happen to the rapists on this show! Although it wasn't unrealistic, I guess - I remember that one guy in the news, who only got three months, I think it was, after raping a girl. And his parents were bothered that he'd lost his appetite for barbeque, or something? WTF? 

I'm still watching the last episode. I don't think I'll watch season three, but I also had no plans to watch this season, so...

Edited by Anela
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On 6/4/2018 at 8:37 PM, cherenkov said:

I don't find it realistic at all. I have actually found a lot of the "me too" to be overblown. The fact that the show turned it into literally every female character came off as preachy, unrealistic, and bullshit to me.

Because the reality is that Angela is correctly stating that not every instance of being hit on is harassment and Brian over blew it because he was a white knight "nice guy". The entire show went off the rails with me with the "every female is a victim" thing. I find that outright insulting.

How fortunate for you. Almost every woman I know - myself included - has had more than one encounter.  Bad ones, quote often. 

Okay, I'm out, with a decent guy being referred to as a "white knight". 

On 6/9/2018 at 11:02 PM, mledawn said:

I am genuinely happy your experience in life is that it's unrealistic and bullshit, because I'll tell you from my real and actual experiences it's fucking tiresome and exasperating (at the very least) to deal with. I would definitely love to be in the happy minority who has never even been harassed by a man (or boy). The #metoo movement has shown that it is the reality for far too many women, myself (and many women I know) included.

 

Same. 

Edited by Anela
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No politics, please.  This is not the place to debate #metoo or for any political commentary.  Keep it to the show.  Thanks.

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15 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

It really isn't. Rape is something that happens everywhere (not just TO women, and not just by MALE rapists). Just because it may not be your experience doesn't mean that it's non-existent. Or unrealistic for that matter. The show could actually have some sort of impact (not getting into the details of such politics) in regards to rape and rape culture. It happens in homes, in schools, in the workplace, in alleys, etc. Nothing about shedding some light on any of these facts sends a terrible message. They may have gone overboard with the visuals at times, but I unfortunately have no reason to doubt that the scene where the women on the show came forward about their experiences with rape could have just as easily reflected a real life situation. 

You don't see it as unrealistic that every woman in this supposedly typical town in California is a victim of sexual assault? That portrayal by the show puts it beyond a realistic depiction, to me. This is not a show set in Sudan, Somalia, or Serbia during wars in which rape was (and is) used as a weapon. This is supposedly a contemporary town in California. That whole montage came across to me as nothing more than preachy, forced, and fantasy. If this is what the show is going to be going forward, I don't know how much more I can watch. There a ways to tackle the topic without the extremely hyperbolic "every woman" statement. Focusing on Bryce's crimes, the victims that he attacked (Hannah, Chloe, Jessica and Tyler) could easily do that justice and then some. There's not one female character I can point to on the show that stands out as a strong or empowered person.

The made-for-TV movie Shame did it far better, and that was 26 years ago.

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4 hours ago, cherenkov said:

You don't see it as unrealistic that every woman in this supposedly typical town in California is a victim of sexual assault? That portrayal by the show puts it beyond a realistic depiction, to me. This is not a show set in Sudan, Somalia, or Serbia during wars in which rape was (and is) used as a weapon. This is supposedly a contemporary town in California. That whole montage came across to me as nothing more than preachy, forced, and fantasy. If this is what the show is going to be going forward, I don't know how much more I can watch. There a ways to tackle the topic without the extremely hyperbolic "every woman" statement. Focusing on Bryce's crimes, the victims that he attacked (Hannah, Chloe, Jessica and Tyler) could easily do that justice and then some. There's not one female character I can point to on the show that stands out as a strong or empowered person.

The made-for-TV movie Shame did it far better, and that was 26 years ago.

I really don't see it as unrealistic. Given my own experiences. Opps wrong person! Sorry

Edited by OrigamiNightmare
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5 hours ago, cherenkov said:

Bla bla bla fishcakes

Jessica showed immense strength to bring charges against Bryce and testify in court in the face of his popularity, his money, his friends, his coach, and the system that is poorly equipped to deal with survivors.

Equating sexual assault with war-torn and third world countries is a gross misunderstanding of the ubiquity of sexual assault.

  • In Canada, it is estimated that 1 in 3 women will experience some form of sexual assault in her lifetime.
  • In the United States, 1 in 5 women will be raped at some point in their lives.
  • 60% of college-aged men said they would commit sexual assault if they knew they would not get caught.
  • Over 60% of college-aged men who self reported non-consensual sexual activity admitted to doing it repeatedly. 

That's just the male-on-female sexual assault statistics.

That's just those women who come forward as survivors.

That's just the men who admit what they would do, or what they have done.

It is most definitely not fantasy.

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And yet another icon of Broadway musicals appears in this show--first Brian D'Arcy James, of Titanic and Shrek (in fact a dear friend of mine appeared with him on Shrek), Kelli O'Hara star of a million shows, and now Anthony Rapp, famous for Rent.

Did I miss something? Alex and Jessica are kind-of dating? I thought he discovered he was gay when he and Zach were wrestling and he got a hard-on..

Awww (Clay's getting a brother! Justin's getting a home!). And....ohhhh, shit. (Justin's got a stalker.)

Monty, you're pathetic. "Tell me what you want me to do"? Grovel some more, why don't you?

JESUS WHAT THE FUCK

Jesus. JESUS. That is fucking horrific. I don't like Tyler and at first I assumed he was mouthing all the right responses but he did seem sincere when he was talking to Monty in the bathroom. That is absolutely tragic.

WHY IS THIS SHOW DOING THIS TO ME? Justin, NO! Put that shit down!

Jesus, I can't believe Tyler was able to lie so convincingly to the mother. He must have been in incredible pain. Jesus.

What is up with the redemption arc of Bryce? Dude's a rapist. Come on.

The cluster of love and comfort in the middle of the dance floor, when one by one each of Hannah's friends wordlessly came to Clay, is lovely.

"Don't call the police"??? What the fuck, Clay?!

That said he has balls of steel to try to talk down Tyler. I am glad a massacre didn't actually happen, but that seems more soapy than realistic.

 

On 5/21/2018 at 4:06 PM, amazinglybored said:

Clay talking down a school shooter and then helping him escape. That message should never be sent.

The humanization of and attempts to gain sympathy for a school shooter.

Yes! Extremely dangerous message to send. It's been disproven over and over (read Dave Cullen's book Columbine for more on this) that most school shooters are not victims of bullying--that more often than not, they are the bullies. 

 

On 6/9/2018 at 11:02 PM, mledawn said:

I am genuinely happy your experience in life is that it's unrealistic and bullshit, because I'll tell you from my real and actual experiences it's fucking tiresome and exasperating (at the very least) to deal with. I would definitely love to be in the happy minority who has never even been harassed by a man (or boy). The #metoo movement has shown that it is the reality for far too many women, myself (and many women I know) included.

I loved the #metoo montage at Bryce's sentencing, thought it was very well done. One of the themes of this show is rape culture and misogyny--how little things, casual misogyny and sexism, leads to greater offenses like Bryce and Marcus grabbing Hannah, which lead to rape. All the little things are winked at/normalized--it's all part of a spectrum.

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11 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Monty, you're pathetic. "Tell me what you want me to do"? Grovel some more, why don't you?

Monty's going to need to hang onto his association with the jocks/clique because he's apparently in a similar boat to Justin in that he needs people he can crash with or call on to help at random times when he has trouble at home. I don't remember if that issue came up last season, but they made kind of a point of it this season, like how they had him crashing in that parking lot (?) area with Scott's help. But ultimately, Monty needs these guys (and especially Bryce, the leader) to be ride or die for him, so he's going to be ride or die for them/the group. He's meaner than Justin and I think he probably is more than a little sadistic, but I think that's where his pathetic loyalty to the team (or Bryce in particular) is coming from.

What I think is sad is how Justin seems like he's going to turn into his mom, although hopefully he'll be luckier in that he probably won't have a violent drug dealer boyfriend who chokes out his future/hypothetical children -- and I guess Monty is going to turn out like his dad, who is only referenced as a violent abuser. And Zach is apparently going to be an absent and emotionally withdrawn husk like his mom, too.

That's why I liked Jessica's storyline, btw. That girl has a very sweet family and lovely relationships with her parents. Sometimes she comes off to me as really cold, but I guess the truth is that because she's got such a nice and supportive family, she doesn't really need the other kids as much.

There are other nice families on the show, but none of the other kids from nice families seem very close with their parents or really seem to be following in their footsteps so much (Clay, Hannah, Taylor, Alex).

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I generally find the show does a pretty good job with the parents. They are interesting in their own right, if ineffectual. Alex's dad and Jessica's dad deviate from what one would expect from those types of characters. 

I do not think the show made Tyler a complete victim. He made his own bad choices. There is a reason he was on Hannah's tapes. That said, I did feel bad for him the whole season. I am glad a school shooting was averted, even if it was stopped unrealistically. I liked how Clay mentioned how adults would feel bad for a week and them move on.

I am assuming Parminder Nagra will play a big role next season because she is Parminder Nagra and I love her. Maybe each episode will be a counseling session for each character.

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22 hours ago, GayAsFuck said:

First and foremost, I have to say that just because a girl isn't present or even on one's mind during an erection doesn't make someone gay. And the only reason that scene was so important was because after him trying to shoot himself in the head, and surviving, he wasn't sure he could get an erection ever again.

The reason, I believe, Clay didn't want Tyler to go to jail was because he admitted to the part he played in Hannah's death when under oath, and even asked him to help vandalize the baseball field with Cyrus since the school was completely ignoring the fact that one (or more) the their star athletes was a rapist. Plus, he literally did go through hell after his first day back, and I think Clay could sense that. Tyler was always bullied, and had little to no friends. Especially after his little accident at the movie theatres. 

No, I totally get that. I'm not saying "he has to be gay because he got an erection around a boy," it's more like I was very confused because I misinterpreted that scene--I put in the context of: earlier he couldn't get hard with the internet woman, plus he talked about rumors of his being gay (which read to me as the show foreshadowing something), finally he gets an erection around a boy. I interpreted all three of those events as connected to each other, but I guess not. 

I started watching "Beyond the Reasons" and I'm very concerned about why the show has Tyler being a school shooter. In the special they defend the rape scene by saying the viewer is forced to empathize with him, and then he goes on to see him planning a school shooting and even though that is obviously horrible, you see his humanity earlier (something like that). They explicitly linked bullying to school shootings which is simply not statistically valid. There are far many more examples of mass shooters being motivated by racism and misogyny, sociopaths who are angered at being crossed (a girl turns them down, they don't make the team, expulsion) or sociopaths who wants to "beat Columbine" and achieve notoriety. After Parkland there was a lot of "next time, let's reach out and notice people's pain"--the shooter in that case wrote such charming things on his backpack as "I hate n******" and was open about hating Jews and gay people.  He's the bully, not the victim of bullying.

I have no problem with the show showing Tyler as a different kind of shooter--my problem is how the special tried to draw a correlation between school shootings and bullying..

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Just finished. I thought this should have been a one-off at the end of last season and I remain convinced of that after concluding season 2. 

I found ghost Hannah silly and it took me out of the scenes. I also thought they did a lot of retconning of her character and story line in order to justify a second season. So much of what was revealed about her during the trial just seemed so out of left field and unbelievable. 

I didn't mind Clay the first season, but I found him really flat and annoying,  at the same time, in this season.

I did love his friendship with Justin, though. I just can't help but root for Justin. I love that he spoke up about Bryce, knowing it would implicate him as well. I mean, he did listen to his girlfriend get raped and just sit there. 

The best relationship of the whole show was Zach and Alex, though. They were so comical and endearing. Two of the more believable characters, if you ask me. 

HATED the sports coach and I actually suspected HIM of taking the pictures to protect his guys. 

I thought the show totally telegraphed Tyler as a school shooter from early on, so that didn't surprise me at all. But I was glad they went a different route and let him get talked out of it. 

The bathroom scene was the only time I cried during the entire season. That was brutal and Tyler going home and telling his mom that everything was great just ripped my heart out. It's so depressing how little kids tell their parents.

Overall, I thought this was a pretty big mess and didn't deliver as strong of a message as the first season. With the direction it looks like they're going in the 3rd season, it looks like the show will be devolving even further in CW like drama. 

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Brava to your entire post, ghoulina.  You put into perfect words all of my thoughts exactly after having just finished watching this season myself last week.   I didn't want to quote your whole post even though I agree with its' entirety but will quote this last sentence  ...

Quote

Overall, I thought this was a pretty big mess and didn't deliver as strong of a message as the first season. With the direction it looks like they're going in the 3rd season, it looks like the show will be devolving even further in CW like drama. 

... to add my thoughts on this further.   The first season of this series IMO, was groundbreaking and was like nothing else I have ever seen.  It was beyond compelling and stayed with me for days afterwards.  I didn't think it needed a second season.  I was not interested in watching season two because I knew it would never be able to capture the impact of the first and I was not at all, in any way shape or form, interested in watching a season that I thought was going to be focused on a school shooting.  I ended up watching this season anyways, mainly out of boredom and lack of anything else to watch.  I told my husband that this season just felt like any other generic tv teen drama (which, admittedly, is my favourite genre even though I am in my 40s) and the impact of the first season is completely lost.  In fact, I spent much of the first few episodes trying to remember who was who and who did what to try and get back into the story.  Another season will just further it's foray into "another CW teen drama."  

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On 6/16/2018 at 5:12 PM, ghoulina said:

It's so depressing how little kids tell their parents.

And that for me has been probably the greatest lesson of this series. I was talking to my friend about the show as she hasn't started watching it but is curious. She was asking my thoughts on all the controversy and the Parent's Television Council saying that Netflix should yank it and other negative reactions. My opinion to her was that yes, the show is very heavy with some of its subject matter and if a parent doesn't think it's something their child should be exposed to, that's fine and their right as a parent. 

However, my opinion to her was rather than these parents screaming to have the show yanked, some of whom have never even seen it, they, maybe more so than teens need to watch it. Because the main thing I've drawn from most of these characters is how much they don't talk to their parents and by all accounts, that is very true to life. So many parents are going through daily life thinking they have a great relationship with their kids and if you ask them, "oh he/she tells me everything and I pay attention and keep a close eye". 

And to their credit many do try their best. They ask the questions experts say they should, show interest, follow the social media accounts to see what they're doing online, etc. and still there is so much that these parents never know because their kids simply don't tell them and don't talk to them about their problems and what's really going on in their life. And you saw it with so many of these characters on the show. I thought it was great that the show showed almost every one of the teenagers' interactions with their parents at least once. 

So we got to see how Marcus' father has no clue what his son is really like, Jessica's parents had no clue what happened to her, Clay's parents bless their hearts are all over the place, Tyler's parents, no clue that their kid has an entire damn arsenal of guns in their house, Alex's parents didn't realize how he was spiraling, Zach's mother is emotionally stunted so her son feels like he can't talk to her, etc. 

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8 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

I saw that you praised Clay's parents,

I did?

 

Quote

I'm certain I've said this already within previous posts, but I don't think it has anything to do with how little or how much a child tells their parents. The show is simply based on the book (or at least the first season was). The first season seemed to be entirely about acknowledging that people are forever choosing to be horrible to one another and that everything affects everything. Everyone affects everyone. Season two, however, seemed mainly to be about closure (for the Bakers and for Clay) and about holding the people who in some way had anything to do with Hannah's death accountable for their actions, as well as the actions of those who have hurt Jessica and countless others. It also seemed to be about redemption (i.e. the testimonies by each student on one of Hannah's tapes, Tyler not shooting up the school, Kevin Porter losing his job after trying to help Justin, Chloe speaking out against Bryce, and even Justin sacrificing his freedom for Jessica). Not everyone seized their opportunity for redemption, but that was mainly for the sake of another season I'm sure. 

I said that in my opinion , that was one of the greatest lessons I took away from the two seasons. Not that it was the only lesson and not that that is necessarily what someone else would take away from watching it or even that that is necessarily what the writers were going for. Art is rarely ever mutually exclusive. I am well aware of the show being based on book (I read the book years ago) and the story is largely about how our actions, sometimes so minute, can negatively affect and impact a person. I got all of that. However, there are many ways and angles to view the same story and many lessons to draw from it. 

 

Quote

Now, I do agree with you that an important lesson can be learned by adults (especially parents), but the truth is a mother or a father cannot always fix a child's problem. In fact, parental involvement could only make things worse. In the real world at least. In my experience, at least.

And I didn't say they could. But I don't see how one shutting their parents out, especially if they are loving and concerned parents who want to help, makes things any better. Again, my post was one interpretation and view of the series. It wasn't meant to be a sweeping generalization of real life and every teenager who struggles with any number of issues. And it wasn't meant to be a final say on what the show represents. Everyone who watches the series, I'm sure, based on their own history and life, can draw their own conclusions and have their own feelings on it. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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2 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

This wasn't an attack on you, dude. I was just stating my opinions, like you did. This show has gotten a lot of bad negativity, and I just feel like it's getting it for all the wrong reasons. Sorry if you got offended by anything I said. 

I wasn't offended. I was clarifying my opinion and I really was confused by your stating I defended Clay's parents because I didn't remember doing so. And I don't think anyone on this board, far as I've read, disagrees about the negative reaction the show has gotten and thinks that the show is somehow responsible for causing teens to kill themselves. The debate over the show has actually hardly been touched upon on this board, far as I can tell. 

Edited by truthaboutluv

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12 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

And I may have been confused about it being praise, but this is what I was referring to. 

Yeah what I meant by that is on one hand, we've seen them attempt to have a firmer hand, talk to him about opening up more to them, to be more honest with them, particularly in the first season but then they're still just handing him a new car despite his clearly acting out again and not talking to them, just accepting Justin into their home without asking too many questions and still not doing much after realizing he's an addict, etc. So that's not me praising them. It's my noting that while they had moments of trying, they also were fucking up in big ways too, hence their being all over the place. 

Edited by truthaboutluv

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47 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 It's my noting that while they had moments of trying, they also were fucking up in big ways too, hence their being all over the place. 

What I thought was striking about many of the characters -- Clay, Hannah, Tyler, Courtney, to name just a few -- is how irrelevant their parents were. All of those characters come from what I would describe as very loving, very stable homes. But even though those characters weren't dealing with very heavy issues at home, they were clearly emotionally fragile and struggling. Even though the parents weren't perfect, I wouldn't go so far as to say they were fucking up. They really didn't seem to have any control over what was happening with their children, for better or worse. Which I think is true to life and also probably inevitable.

In a sense, I feel like the kids who came from the "nicest" homes were actually the most emotionally unstable. But that might be some weird quirk of the writing rather than an actual theme or anything.

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On 6/13/2018 at 12:00 AM, mledawn said:

Equating sexual assault with war-torn and third world countries is a gross misunderstanding of the ubiquity of sexual assault.

In order to get those statistics, you have to go look at the so-called study done by Mary Koss, which was so flawed as to characterize regret as sexual assault, and you have to believe that rape is more common in the United States than it is in places where it actually is used as a weapon of war as it is in Somalia. That is why I find the preachy "#metoo" montage in this episode so much of a turn off.

What this episode portrayed was so over the top I have no real interest in seeing more.

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Given the heavy material of this show, this is may be really petty, but it might be a nice reprieve for a moment.

Did the wardrobe choices stand out to anyone else? Particularly with Jessica and Alex, this started to take me out of the show. With just a few exceptions (ex: the dance, where Jessica wore a dress) the two of them had a VERY specific style that they didn’t veer away from. I get that it’s part of building a character, but this was kind of ridiculous. Jessica had an affinity for those patterned open-front coat things with tight wrists and Alex always wore patterned button-ups with cardigan sweaters. It’s like they found one item they liked and ordered it in every color offered. 

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Did we see ANY footage of Hannah post-haircut this season?!

Ok, now for reals.  SPOILER ALERT!

Does ANYONE else think that Alex is in the closet!?

Ok, so he’s in “love” with Jessica...they have never had sex, and aside from kissing her, he has never tried to have sex with her with the exception of the rumor that the reason he dumped Jessica and put her name on that hot or not list was because she “wouldn’t.”

But then after lots of physical contact with sexy Zach all season, they get physical with each other without shirts and Alex, after TRYING and FAILING with STRAIGHT PORN, finally gets an erection from ZACH? 

Not to mention they were fighting because Alex was angry that Zach and Hannah had sex and literally yelled to Zach “YOU CAN FUCK GIRLS!!!”

Then of course Zach insisted on making Alex dance with him (or learn how, rather). SERIOUSLY in that moment, I thought that Zach was going to dip Alex, and Alex was going to kiss Zach and have Zach be all “uh...Dude nope,” to have Alex get mad and kick Zach out. It just seemed to me like it would happen. AND IT DIDN’T!

Edited by imakicola
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Clay's speech and his scene with Hannah and her giving him a happy memory 'just because' was emotional for me. Great stuff. 

Loved the message/chalkboard for Hannah at Monet's after the memorial service. A cool way to pay tribute to her. 

Bullshit that Bryce gets three months probation and Justin, six. Money talks. I'm sure Bryce's parents gave Hillcrest a hefty donation so he could transfer there and play football. I saw when Cyrus and Tyler that the baseball field was named Walker Field; another reason why Bryce felt untouchable. Lucky Bryce gets to 'start over,' where I'm sure he'll keep preying on girls...

I loved that Clay's parents want to adopt Justin and that they let Clay decide and tell him. A kind and compassionate thing. Justin needs a family. 

Here for Alex/Jessica. 

The 'Reasons Why Not' list and saying Olivia saying goodbye to Clay. Bittersweet. Sad. 

Loved seeing Parminder Nagra as the new counselor. She'll always be Neela from ER to me. :)

Jesus Christ. I am, sickened, heartbroken, and angry by Monty and Co. assaulting Tyler. He did not or ever deserve that. Ever. I am so sad. 

Monty is sick. He needs help. 

Alex and Zach hanging out and helping with dancing was cool. 

I was afraid that when Clay and his dad left Justin alone that Seth would show up. I shouldn't have expected Justin to stay clean. 

The dread and "no, no, no" when Tyler pulled his guns out from the basement...I was sweating and my anxiety ramped up. 

I teared up when Clay's and Hannah's song came on and his friends came and held and supported him. 

Man, Jessica already cheated on Alex and Chloe is pregnant.

After Mackenzie showed Cyrus the text, I was just yelling, "Tell the chaperones!! Call the cops!! Do not handle this yourselves!!"

OMFG. I really thought Tyler shooting up the dance was going to happen. I was sweating and pleading at the TV for Tyler not to shoot. I wish Clay had dropped the gun. Is he going to take the fall? Will they tell the truth, that it was Tyler? 

So many loose ends to explore in Season 3. Seth, Chloe, Tyler...

This series is incredible. 

Edited by ShortyMac
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Just finished watching this season. I'm looking forward to season 3. I have one question, maybe I missed this: 

what was in the letter the blonde lady left for Olivia? 

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This season was terrible. Absolute garbage.  

The only reason I slogged through it was to see some kind of justice/retribution/revenge/something towards Bryce and all we got was more rape and misery with everyone getting away with everything and nothing having consequences. I don’t care if the writers want to claim it as “realistic,” it makes a shitty TV show. I have zero interest in watching a 3rd season because they have shown what they are all about and it will be the same kind of bullshit for another 13 hours. No thanks.

I don’t know what the fuck the writers were going for, because they made me want to see Tyler shoot up the school and kill these monsters. Surely that’s not the message they wanted to send?

And how about Clay learning someone is about to shoot up a school and he says “Don’t call the police!” Great message there too, that’s really what we want teens to think. That if you know someone will commit a school shooting, don’t get the cops involved, just go talk to him by yourself and then put him in hiding. Genius.

Tyler would have been in need of serious medical help after that assault if not dead on the bathroom floor. He’d have internal injuries, probably a perforated colon, who knows what else, not to mention a concussion or brain damage. No way would he just walk out of there with a small bruise on his forehead. His attack was more shocking than the other rapes precisely because it was more brutal and violent. 

Edited by Cotypubby
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While I was on vacation last week, I heard The Night We Met on the radio twice! I was driving so of course after I got where I was going, I had to watch the dance scene on YouTube and sniffle a little bit.

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On 6/9/2018 at 11:02 PM, mledawn said:

I am genuinely happy your experience in life is that it's unrealistic and bullshit, because I'll tell you from my real and actual experiences it's fucking tiresome and exasperating (at the very least) to deal with. I would definitely love to be in the happy minority who has never even been harassed by a man (or boy). The #metoo movement has shown that it is the reality for far too many women, myself (and many women I know) included.

The #metoo movement isn't just about rape or outright sexual assault.  It's about people not seeing the person-hood of women.  I'm a person, I have feelings.  I don't exist for male amusement; to me that's what a lot of the #metoo movement is about.

I binged the season in four days.  To me it really was NOT justifying suicide or school shootings.  The truth was Hannah killed herself and nothing changed.  The school wasn't responsible (that part didn't surprise me.  After all if the parents want counselors and teachers to be better trained, that will cost $$, which means higher taxes, which is something a lot of folks don't want), Bryce got off with a slap on the wrist, Hannah's parents split up and everybody was hurting.  When Clay told Tyler (who seriously should have gone to the ER and kept overnight for observation, at least for that head injury) that if he went into the school and started shooting, adults would cry about it for a week and then everybody would forget.  That was very true too, because there have been so many of them, it would just be "one more."

I do have questions about this show.  Was Bryce supposed to be wealthy?  If so, why wasn't he in a private school?  In NYC, many well to do kids go to public school up until high school, where they either go to one of the specialized high schools (if they can get in) or to a private school; and if Bryce was in a public school, wouldn't it have been in a place where there were other wealthy kids?  Why did they mention a sports scholarship for him?  If his parents have THAT much money, he wouldn't need a scholarship to play sports.  And why was he playing football and baseball?  Shouldn't he have been playing tennis, golf or lacrosse?  IMO, Bryce was probably a tad wealthier than everybody else, but not a member of the 1%.

Sometimes I felt like this show was supposed to take place in the 80's, and then I'd see everybody with a smart phone.  How come no one had cameras, anywhere?  IRL many people have cameras in front of their homes, in their businesses, even in the schools, but no one seemed to have any of them anywhere.  

It would be interesting if the truth came out about Tyler's assault and Bryce wound up going to jail; ironic that he goes to jail for something he DIDN'T do, rather than the shit he did do.

I thought that Chloe changed her tune because she suspected she was pregnant by Bryce.  

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