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S05.E22: The End


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10 minutes ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

I keep thinking it was probably unwise to leave a gravitonium-filled Talbot floating around in space since they know there are aliens out there looking for gravitonium.  I guess the aliens could just take Talbot and leave the earth alone so maybe it's not that bad.

However the Confederation were not there in force, only one council member's ship as they were trying to do a quick grab before Thanos showed up. From Infinity War we know and the Confederacy should know that 

Spoiler

that his MO was to knock out the local army and then kill half of the surviving population, random ships he ran across included.

So it is unlikely anyone  not with Thanos who knew was coming would be hanging around earth for long. Especially if they only had the limited knowledge of Thanos' past actions like that the real world Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. producers had and not know about the actual Thanos plan.

However it is possible that some would stay and after the Infinity War events

Spoiler

perhaps some are so  mission oriented and tough that after half of the population disappeared they stayed on mission

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8 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

So Daisy and Talbot made some new holes in Chicago- I’m not sure if anyone’s going to notice.

The people in Chicago noticed, and where relieved when S.H.I.E.L.D. arrived. If you mean The Avengers since they named the second alien battle in New York from Infinity War in an earlier episode 

Spoiler

They are busy, as most are interpreting the timeline they directly went into a bigger battle in Wakanda with Iron Man known as missing in action. If you go by the time in this episode you can slide a few extra days in between the initial contact in New York and the Wakanda battle.

I would say it would be like an Allied soldier fighting the Japanese or in Italy on June 6,1944 when the world's eyes were on D-Day at Normandy. Chicago would be noticed but not the front page story, and the movies only have time for the headline story.

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23 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

No Thanos ending?!? Boooooooo Shield! You chickened out for sure. 

 

Maybe they chickened out. Or I wonder if maybe the Russo brothers and Feige wanted to keep the ending of Infinity War so secret they refused to even tell the people at Marvel television how it was going to end. Imagining that makes me laugh especially if there was some hilarious meeting where all the Russos would say is how Thanos and his children attack New York and keep changing the subject when anyone asks for more information.

23 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Fitz is easy, they're going to go get the Fitz in cryo-sleep. Coulson, I have no clue how they're going to pull that rabbit out of the hat.

Did Fitz ever explain to anyone where specifically he was during his big sleep? I don't remember if he did and if he didn't they could be spending a long time looking.

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9 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Not sure why everyone assumes Talbot is gone for good. Yes, he got Quaked out into space, but with all the gravitonium he’s carrying around, whose to say he wouldn’t defrost quite nicely if restored to an atmosphere. 

Because he's dead, and in a previous episode he commented on requiring air to breathe. We also dealt with a repetitive villain with Ward, who meandered around with no real purpose after S.2A, and I see no reason to repeat that mistake.

9 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

And good to have confirmation from Daisy that she wouldn’t have respected Coulson's medical wishes.  At least May just tried to guilt him into it  

Is that a reference to Fitz torturing the inhibitor out of Daisy? That's not the same thing. I'd understand you saying that if the procedure tortured Coulson in the process, but it's nowhere near the same as what Fitz did. And when Coulson fell everyone around him scrambled to get the syringe to inject him when they knew he didn't inject himself, so she's clearly not the only one who wanted to save him even if he didn't want to save himself.

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(edited)
21 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Maybe they chickened out. Or I wonder if maybe the Russo brothers and Feige wanted to keep the ending of Infinity War so secret they refused to even tell the people at Marvel television how it was going to end. Imagining that makes me laugh especially if there was some hilarious meeting where all the Russos would say is how Thanos and his children attack New York and keep changing the subject when anyone asks for more information.

Did Fitz ever explain to anyone where specifically he was during his big sleep? I don't remember if he did and if he didn't they could be spending a long time looking.

I go with they were not in the loop only had the broadest outline of the story from the comic book. One of the podcasters claims that in the closed caption of the TV newscast on New York the reporters dialog was something bigger than the Battle of New York in the first Avengers movie. 

Spoiler

instead of what was a small scale raid in Infinity War

If anyone chickened out it was Feige since Agents of SHIELD security held for The Winter Soldier. Mark Ruffalo and Tom Holland may have talked too much but the TV crew never did.

 

Enoch was with Fitz when they got to the future Lighthouse, even if not said on screen the others had to have known. And come season 6 they don't even have to go looking for Fitz. Enoch in his mission to monitor earth can see that Robin's prophecy didn't come true and bring Fitz back home to resume his mission. Given his and his comrade's actions I would say there is zero possibility of euthanizing the extra Fitz body. 

Edited by Raja
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2 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Really ignorant question but I despite my love for Shield, I am a DCU girl at heart. Are any of the regular Shield members in the Marvel movies? If they are, how can I get caught up?

In Captain America The Winter Soldier, S.H.I.E.L.D. along with many government and international agencies were found to have been infiltrated by Hydra, then thought to be just the Nazi's science division during WWII. So SHIELD mostly went away in the following movies and the TV show Agents have been mostly in at best a vigilante status. The only S.H.I.E.L.D. member from the TV show to appear in the movies was Phil Coulson who suffered the injury he is dying from in The Avengers at Loki's hand. 

S.H.I.E.L.D. or ex S.H.I.E.L.D.Agents from the movies who have appeared on the show are Director Fury, Assistant Director Maria Hill and Jasper Sitwell who was a Hydra sleeper agent and was killed off in the Winter Soldier. A Young Sitwell was with a young General Hale at the Hydra Prep School in the flashback episode. After The Winter Soldier in the MCU movies the role of S.H.I.E.L.D. was taken over by the CIA and the German GSG9 counter terrorist force in Captain America Civil War. In The Avengers Age Of Ultron many "ex S.H.I.E.L.D. agents including Director Fury and Maria Hill and a few other bit role faces from other movies manned a recommissioned helicarrier to save victims in Sokovia in the same manner but on a larger scale than the Zephyr was used in Chicago by Director MacKenzie. For the Sokovian rescue  Captain America made the statement that this is what S.H.I.E.L.D. was supposed to be. 

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I don't know if this has been stated somewhere else, but there is a reason the end of Infinity War isn't reflected in the show.  I know two of the people in the writers' room.  I asked the parents of one of them a few weeks ago if the movie's ending would affect the show's ending.  They told me that the writers were not told anything about what would happen in the movie, so they were really unable to weave anything from the movie into the show.  It seemed really obvious to me that there was enough of a time lapse at the end of the finale to supersede the timeline of the movie, and it's too bad because it makes the show look sloppy when it's really the idiots-in-charge at Marvel who refused to share anything with the showrunners.  The showrunners can try and sell that their timeline still hasn't caught up with the movie's, but it just doesn't fly with me and seems like they're trying to tow the party line.  The parents told me that the showrunners would have changed aspects of the season finale if they'd known about the movie's end.

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6 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Because he's dead, and in a previous episode he commented on requiring air to breathe. We also dealt with a repetitive villain with Ward, who meandered around with no real purpose after S.2A, and I see no reason to repeat that mistake.

Is that a reference to Fitz torturing the inhibitor out of Daisy? That's not the same thing. I'd understand you saying that if the procedure tortured Coulson in the process, but it's nowhere near the same as what Fitz did. And when Coulson fell everyone around him scrambled to get the syringe to inject him when they knew he didn't inject himself, so she's clearly not the only one who wanted to save him even if he didn't want to save himself.

Ah, my mistake. I thought that the issue with what Fitz did to Daisy was the actual fact of doing a medical procedure against her will. Not simply that he caused her pain while doing so. Are you actually saying that Fitz removing Daisy’s inhibitor against her express wishes would have been okay if he could have done it without actually hurting her?

And yes, I would still say everyone would have been wrong to ignore Coulson’s previously expressed wishes. 

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On 5/18/2018 at 10:16 PM, Lantern7 said:

 

ETA: Wait, Deke is gone-gone? Once again, not the most attentive viewer. He wasn't that bad. At least he got to eat Twinkies and drink beer. Maybe both at the same time. I wouldn't think that would be weird.

I could be wrong but I think we were told how people think time travel works but not how it works. Why would Deke pop out of existence? That assumes a fairly linear concept of a non linear concept? Maybe he’ll find out he is now someone else’s grandkid? Maybe time makes a pine knot around Deke. He’s found in a nature sanctuary teaching kids about rodents.

I will mis Phil a lot. 

Spoiler

Unless the dusting somehow cures him  

Spoiler

 

 

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5 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

I don't know if this has been stated somewhere else, but there is a reason the end of Infinity War isn't reflected in the show.  I know two of the people in the writers' room.  I asked the parents of one of them a few weeks ago if the movie's ending would affect the show's ending.  They told me that the writers were not told anything about what would happen in the movie, so they were really unable to weave anything from the movie into the show.  It seemed really obvious to me that there was enough of a time lapse at the end of the finale to supersede the timeline of the movie, and it's too bad because it makes the show look sloppy when it's really the idiots-in-charge at Marvel who refused to share anything with the showrunners.  The showrunners can try and sell that their timeline still hasn't caught up with the movie's, but it just doesn't fly with me and seems like they're trying to tow the party line.  The parents told me that the showrunners would have changed aspects of the season finale if they'd known about the movie's end.

I assume it happened just before the feces hit the fan, so it worked for me.  I didn’t expect any more than a mention. I’d think dropping Coulson off at Tahiti was the least they could do.

I’m sure the showrunners would like to play in the larger sandbox. 

13 hours ago, Raja said:

The people in Chicago noticed, and where relieved when S.H.I.E.L.D. arrived. If you mean The Avengers since they named the second alien battle in New York from Infinity War in an earlier episode 

  Reveal hidden contents

They are busy, as most are interpreting the timeline they directly went into a bigger battle in Wakanda with Iron Man known as missing in action. If you go by the time in this episode you can slide a few extra days in between the initial contact in New York and the Wakanda battle.

 

I think he/she meant potholes :-)

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(edited)

I’m actually surprise how many people our upset with what happen to Fitz specially on social media Figure after what he did 5x14 more people would have been fine with this 

Edited by Froippi
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7 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Ah, my mistake. I thought that the issue with what Fitz did to Daisy was the actual fact of doing a medical procedure against her will. Not simply that he caused her pain while doing so. Are you actually saying that Fitz removing Daisy’s inhibitor against her express wishes would have been okay if he could have done it without actually hurting her?

And yes, I would still say everyone would have been wrong to ignore Coulson’s previously expressed wishes. 

Fitz brutally tortured a woman as she was begging him to stop, one of his robots tried to kill Mack, and he blamed his victims for his actions. I'm not saying that Daisy and May were right to want Coulson to be saved against his wishes (let me be crystal clear: they weren't right), but it's nowhere comparable to committing torture. Unless May and Daisy brutally tortured Coulson, what they wanted to do is nowhere near the same thing.

And the issue comes back to how Fitz could have simply talked with Daisy about the issue. He could have spent time acquiring pain medication instead of building dangerous robots that endangered the lives of everyone on the base. That he committed villainous acts and refused to acknowledge the wrong he committed to his victims is why his death scene meant nothing to me, and why I find it ridiculous that Mack and Daisy are being tasked with rescuing an iteration of a man who hurt them so much.

19 minutes ago, Froippi said:

I’m actually surprise how many people our upset with what happen to Fitz specially on social media Figure after what he did 5x14 more people would have been fine with this 

People weren't holding Fitz accountable for his actions minutes after Mack was nearly died and Daisy was tortured. People were vilifying Daisy and Mack for being angry with Fitz during these recent episodes, even claiming that Mack was a one-dimensional caricature who shouldn't be on the show. Never doubt the ability of a fandom to woobify a white man who has committed villainous acts. We've seen this before with Ward.

Daisy - Fitz - Tortured.jpg

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18 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

I keep thinking it was probably unwise to leave a gravitonium-filled Talbot floating around in space since they know there are aliens out there looking for gravitonium.  I guess the aliens could just take Talbot and leave the earth alone so maybe it's not that bad.

In my opinion, I think they'll come back to Graviton someday. May depend on how long the show continues, but I feel having him blasted into space without a clear death was a way to leave the door cracked for more story there one day. 

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40 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Fitz brutally tortured a woman as she was begging him to stop, one of his robots tried to kill Mack, and he blamed his victims for his actions. I'm not saying that Daisy and May were right to want Coulson to be saved against his wishes (let me be crystal clear: they weren't right), but it's nowhere comparable to committing torture. Unless May and Daisy brutally tortured Coulson, what they wanted to do is nowhere near the same thing.

And the issue comes back to how Fitz could have simply talked with Daisy about the issue. He could have spent time acquiring pain medication instead of building dangerous robots that endangered the lives of everyone on the base. That he committed villainous acts and refused to acknowledge the wrong he committed to his victims is why his death scene meant nothing to me, and why I find it ridiculous that Mack and Daisy are being tasked with rescuing an iteration of a man who hurt them so much.

People weren't holding Fitz accountable for his actions minutes after Mack was nearly died and Daisy was tortured. People were vilifying Daisy and Mack for being angry with Fitz during these recent episodes, even claiming that Mack was a one-dimensional caricature who shouldn't be on the show. Never doubt the ability of a fandom to woobify a white man who has committed villainous acts. We've seen this before with Ward.

Daisy - Fitz - Tortured.jpg

That’s not even the point if they understood the whole time travel point they would know in Season 6 he be brought back no way I can see them leaving Iain and Clark off of season 6

Edited by Froippi
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(edited)
2 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

People weren't holding Fitz accountable for his actions minutes after Mack was nearly died and Daisy was tortured. People were vilifying Daisy and Mack for being angry with Fitz during these recent episodes, even claiming that Mack was a one-dimensional caricature who shouldn't be on the show. Never doubt the ability of a fandom to woobify a white man who has committed villainous acts. We've seen this before with Ward.

Daisy - Fitz - Tortured.jpg

2

I would say that the writing wasn't holding Fitz accountable for his actions either, in my opinion. They, in my opinion, tend to do this. They did this back in Season 3 with Simmons wanting to leave someone on an alien planet (Will) while she thought he was still alive, they handwave Daisy's actions at the end of Season 3 as "well she was under Hive's influence so she couldn't be held accountable", Fitz's actions in Season 4 with hiding AIDA from SHIELD, Fitz working on AIDA in secret, Fitz creating the Framework and what he did there, not to mentioned Mack's issues with reliving losing Hope twice (thanks' to Fitz's technology), Ftiz shooting Simmons in the leg and nearly killing her in the Framework, etc......

In my opinion, it's handwaving the actions and not dealing with it when they should've been dealing with it. It's not like they have to show these guys being this way at all but they do

2 hours ago, Froippi said:

I’m actually surprise how many people our upset with what happen to Fitz specially on social media Figure after what he did 5x14 more people would have been fine with this 

 

Of course, Fitz is coming back. They only killed off Fitz because there is a spare (the Fitz under ice) and then they won't have to deal with anything that he did during Season 5. It's a giant reset button. Why should people get upset about it? Personally, I think people should be more upset about them resetting everything that they wrote in Season 5 for Fitz and thus handwaving it away and undercutting the death that they wrote in this season finale. 

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

I assume it happened just before the feces hit the fan, so it worked for me.  I didn’t expect any more than a mention. I’d think dropping Coulson off at Tahiti was the least they could do.

 

For me not really since they were shoehorning tie-ins through lines like (and I am paraphrasing by memory here), "did you see the news? Aliens are attacking NYC again!" or "Thanos has come to Earth"

 

In my opinion, it would've been better if they didn't set their show timeline so close to the movies and also force tie-ins like the lines above. Now, the Winter Soldier tie-in from Season 1 was something that the show couldn't ignore but the other tie-ins were clearly not 100% needed at all. 

 

Edit:

 

To add I am a bit angry and sad that they didn't show a tie-in from the very end of Infinity War (and where the rules on spoilers here? Can I just type what happened or do I have to use a Spoiler tag and for how long?).

Quote

I’m sure the showrunners would like to play in the larger sandbox. 

Yeah, for this show, that is my guess too.  I do wonder what the Netflix showrunners feel about tie-ins (on their shows) from the movies?

Edited by TVSpectator
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(edited)

Interesting that Deke pushed himself away from Daisy this episode although I was glad those two our just odd for each other 

Edited by Froippi
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I like this ending for Phil.  A little sweet and a little sad.  Clark Gregg did really well this episode.

Mack was the logical choice to lead of the people they have left, and I'm glad they went with it.

Deke didn't necessarily pop out of existence.  He said he was hitting the road anyway, so he may just be traveling the world as a plot thread to be picked up later if there's a need.

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2 hours ago, Froippi said:

That’s not even the point if they understood the whole time travel point they would know in Season 6 he be brought back no way I can see them leaving Iain and Clark off of season 6

Wouldn't that undercut the entire point of Coulson's "goodbye" in the finale, with characters letting him go? If they didn't want to give consequence to Coulson's deal, I don't see the point in him dying as the price for stopping AIDA, or for giving Daisy the syringe in the finale instead of taking it himself.

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

Interesting that Deke pushed himself away from Daisy this episode although I was glad those two our just odd for each other 

Deke didn't serve any purpose on the show. He meandered from one scene to the next, and the whole 'tech savvy' bit is already a trait of one of the existing characters so he's basically redundant. Unless they were going to kill Fitz off for real, Deke's just going to be there - doing nothing substantial.

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20 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Because he's dead, and in a previous episode he commented on requiring air to breathe. We also dealt with a repetitive villain with Ward, who meandered around with no real purpose after S.2A, and I see no reason to repeat that mistake.

Is that a reference to Fitz torturing the inhibitor out of Daisy? That's not the same thing. I'd understand you saying that if the procedure tortured Coulson in the process, but it's nowhere near the same as what Fitz did. And when Coulson fell everyone around him scrambled to get the syringe to inject him when they knew he didn't inject himself, so she's clearly not the only one who wanted to save him even if he didn't want to save himself.

The thing is that there is in-show tech to bring people back from the dead using Kree blood/science. There are also transporters, so hypothetically Talbot could get beamed to safety. While practical considerations like affording Adrian Pasdar or wanting to move on from Talbot's character or whatnot may/probably mean that's the last we're seeing of Talbot, there's no inherent reason that the writers couldn't come up with a way to bring him back.

Fitz's ripping the inhibitor out of Daisy wa done for a reason: it was the only way to potentially ensure that the rip into the fear dimension didn't grow and possibly threaten all of Earth. So I' think it is justifiable to put Daisy in pain and possible death in order to save the planet. (Admittedly, part of it was her fear that having her powers back would lead to the Earth cracking into pieces, making it not as clearcut). Daisy's willingness to overlook Coulson's wishes was basically because of her insecurities and daddy issues. Not sufficient justification IMO. 

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Slightly bizarre moments that were similar to earlier moments in the series:

-Bad guy booted out into space: Hive/Ward and Talbot/Gravitron.

-May's final vacation with beloved: Andrew/Lash and then Coulson.

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(edited)
On 5/20/2018 at 2:16 AM, NUguy514 said:

I don't know if this has been stated somewhere else, but there is a reason the end of Infinity War isn't reflected in the show.  I know two of the people in the writers' room.  I asked the parents of one of them a few weeks ago if the movie's ending would affect the show's ending.  They told me that the writers were not told anything about what would happen in the movie, so they were really unable to weave anything from the movie into the show.  It seemed really obvious to me that there was enough of a time lapse at the end of the finale to supersede the timeline of the movie, and it's too bad because it makes the show look sloppy when it's really the idiots-in-charge at Marvel who refused to share anything with the showrunners.  The showrunners can try and sell that their timeline still hasn't caught up with the movie's, but it just doesn't fly with me and seems like they're trying to tow the party line.  The parents told me that the showrunners would have changed aspects of the season finale if they'd known about the movie's end.

What I find most interesting about this post is that based on the state of the MCU, and marvel television i have no reason to doubt anything at all in it. Considering they can't even get their shit together to show Avengers tower in Manhattan skyline shots in Daredevil this is no surprise either. Hopefully one day they will get it together. Although it makes me laugh to imagine Kevin Feige at the Infinity War production offices telling the person who answers the phone that if anyone from Marvel Television calls, that they need to make them things  they have the wrong number. Then the receptionist is pretending it is a dry cleaner or answering in another language anytime the Agents of SHIELD people call.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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7 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Of course, Fitz is coming back. They only killed off Fitz because there is a spare (the Fitz under ice) and then they won't have to deal with anything that he did during Season 5. It's a giant reset button. Why should people get upset about it? Personally, I think people should be more upset about them resetting everything that they wrote in Season 5 for Fitz and thus handwaving it away and undercutting the death that they wrote in this season finale. 

For me not really since they were shoehorning tie-ins through lines like (and I am paraphrasing by memory here), "did you see the news? Aliens are attacking NYC again!" or "Thanos has come to Earth"

 

In my opinion, it would've been better if they didn't set their show timeline so close to the movies and also force tie-ins like the lines above. Now, the Winter Soldier tie-in from Season 1 was something that the show couldn't ignore but the other tie-ins were clearly not 100% needed at all. 

 

 

The potential problem they don't know the time travel rules that will be used for Avengers 4 and bringing back prime Fitz body early could be in compatible with the movie.I guess SHIELD can time jump past wherever that movie ends or it could be as wrong as having  President Obama instead of President Ellis in Luke Cage.

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5 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Of course, Fitz is coming back. They only killed off Fitz because there is a spare (the Fitz under ice) and then they won't have to deal with anything that he did during Season 5. It's a giant reset button. Why should people get upset about it? Personally, I think people should be more upset about them resetting everything that they wrote in Season 5 for Fitz and thus handwaving it away and undercutting the death that they wrote in this season finale. 

I'm annoyed because this is the second time they had Fitz cross some serious lines without repercussion. What he did went far beyond what anyone else on the team has done, and it's irritating that his actions continually get handwaved. I don't get why they keep having Fitz commit such heinous acts if they're simply going to gloss over it.

5 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

ITo add I am a bit angry and sad that they didn't show a tie-in from the very end of Infinity War (and where the rules on spoilers here? Can I just type what happened or do I have to use a Spoiler tag and for how long?).

I doubt they knew what the ending to Infinity War was going to be, since even actors in the movie were kept in the dark about some things (like Holland not knowing who Spider-man was rescuing in one scene so he couldn't say the names of the characters).

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:43 AM, blueray said:

Though I was the only one that was hoping that he would drive off in Lola? 

When I saw Coulson put on his sunglasses, I was hoping he'd get into Lola and drive off.

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17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The thing is that there is in-show tech to bring people back from the dead using Kree blood/science. There are also transporters, so hypothetically Talbot could get beamed to safety. While practical considerations like affording Adrian Pasdar or wanting to move on from Talbot's character or whatnot may/probably mean that's the last we're seeing of Talbot, there's no inherent reason that the writers couldn't come up with a way to bring him back.

Talbot is already dead, and the Kree tech from the Future Arc required for the body to be immediately revived.

The lesson to learn from Ward is how tiresome a nemesis can if kept on the show for no real reason.

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Fitz's ripping the inhibitor out of Daisy wa done for a reason: it was the only way to potentially ensure that the rip into the fear dimension didn't grow and possibly threaten all of Earth. So I' think it is justifiable to put Daisy in pain and possible death in order to save the planet. (Admittedly, part of it was her fear that having her powers back would lead to the Earth cracking into pieces, making it not as clearcut). Daisy's willingness to overlook Coulson's wishes was basically because of her insecurities and daddy issues. Not sufficient justification IMO. 

Fitz could have talked to Daisy, and I highly doubt she would let people die if a reasonable person explained that restoring her powers was the only way. He didn’t talk to her, though. He also spent considerable time building dangerous robots, and one tried to kill Mack.

I’m not going to pretend that Fitz handling it in the worst way possible is excusable. Nor am I going to throw Mack or Daisy under the bus to excuse Fitz torturing a woman and nearly killing a man who has done a lot for him, including forgiving him for his role in the AIDA fiasco that cost him Hope for a second time. He was wrong, and that act casts a shadow over his death in this episode for some people.

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53 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Talbot is already dead, and the Kree tech from the Future Arc required for the body to be immediately revived.

The lesson to learn from Ward is how tiresome a nemesis can if kept on the show for no real reason.

Fitz could have talked to Daisy, and I highly doubt she would let people die if a reasonable person explained that restoring her powers was the only way. He didn’t talk to her, though. He also spent considerable time building dangerous robots, and one tried to kill Mack.

I’m not going to pretend that Fitz handling it in the worst way possible is excusable. Nor am I going to throw Mack or Daisy under the bus to excuse Fitz torturing a woman and nearly killing a man who has done a lot for him, including forgiving him for his role in the AIDA fiasco that cost him Hope for a second time. He was wrong, and that act casts a shadow over his death in this episode for some people.

First, I don't know if we know for sure that Talbot is dead. We had a shot of him floating in space. From my understanding, a normal person can survive briefly in a vacuum, let alone a superperson. (Yes, Talbot said he needed air to breath. He could have been wrong, he could have used his powers to bring some pocket of air with him, among other possibilities.)

Assuming for discussion's sake that he did indeed die, we also don't know how "immediate" immediate needs to be in the case of the Kree revivals. We also know that Coulson was revived with Kree blood and other stuff well after he was dead, so at least to me, it seems like they could bring Talbot back if they wanted to with things already established in the show, let alone new explanations that the writers could come up with.

It's hard to say what Fitz did and didn't tell Daisy, since we were shown things as a conversation between Fitz and his Doctor persona, part of which Daisy heard. So it may be that Daisy did have some awareness of why and still objected.

A reasonable person still might object to undergoing the power-restoring surgery since a) it might kill or cripple them and they put their own personal well-being over the fates of numerous others b) they might not buy that restoring powers is the only/best way of limiting the fear dimension's influence c) they might think that empowering her would potentially bring about a worse fate in terms of becoming the Destroyer of Worlds, and thus not worth the risk. 

I think that Daisy fell in the last category, implicitly or explicitly.

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The question is how much is Graviton the human body of Talbot and how much is gravitonium of at least 5 minds remaining in a mostly human form

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I wish Henry Simmons played a different type of character because I just watched the entire season over this past weekend and as much as I love Henry and Mack in action mode and his general badassery, the sanctimonious preaching about morality and God got VERY tiresome when viewed back to back.  I like my characters a little morally gray and willing to do whatever is necessary to beat the bad guys even if that includes outright killing with no speechifying or hand-wringing or passing judgement on those that are willing to do it.  I am looking forward to seeing him lead but hope they tone down that "moral center of the team" aspect a little.  Doubt they will but one can hope.

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44 minutes ago, Unclejosh said:

I wish Henry Simmons played a different type of character because I just watched the entire season over this past weekend and as much as I love Henry and Mack in action mode and his general badassery, the sanctimonious preaching about morality and God got VERY tiresome when viewed back to back.  I like my characters a little morally gray and willing to do whatever is necessary to beat the bad guys even if that includes outright killing with no speechifying or hand-wringing or passing judgement on those that are willing to do it.  I am looking forward to seeing him lead but hope they tone down that "moral center of the team" aspect a little.  Doubt they will but one can hope.

When it comes to Fitz, Mack has every right to criticize Fitz's behavior. In terms of the whole 'killing' issue, I'd blame the writing on that. I could understand Mack being hesitant about killing due to being a mechanic who was being roped into special ops, but Daisy was tasked with killing Donnie in season two when he became a threat, so killing people is part of the job. It was even suggested to kill Mike during the premiere episode, so it's not like the organization doesn't kill (I know Coulson avoids it if possible at times, but we're not dealing with a superhero group who has a 'no kill' policy, like in some comic books).

I think part of the issue is a balancing act between this technically being a 'superhero' show (due to being set in the MCU) and the team being part of a spy organization that necessitates some hard calls at times, but I don't think the writers have the best grasp on what to do or how to handle it. Certain characters and plots get dropped (like Agent Weaver, the Council, Vijay), and the writers get confused (like bringing Fitz and Simmons together at the end of season two without addressing any of the issues that divided them that season, or Daisy thanking Fitz at the end of season four for something Mack actually did).

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I'm not sure how much i liked this. Considering how amazing the rest of the season was, I think I was expecting more.

Looking forward to next season though. This episode left a lot of ambiguity as to how the show will proceed.

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4 hours ago, Raja said:

The question is how much is Graviton the human body of Talbot and how much is gravitonium of at least 5 minds remaining in a mostly human form

That's what I've been thinking. Since gravitonium has been shown to store at least something of the minds of those who it has absorbed, and Talbot's whole body is infused with it as well, it opens the door a bit for a possible resuscitation.

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(edited)
16 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I doubt they knew what the ending to Infinity War was going to be, since even actors in the movie were kept in the dark about some things (like Holland not knowing who Spider-man was rescuing in one scene so he couldn't say the names of the characters).

1

Well, it's being reported as this

https://io9.gizmodo.com/agents-of-shield-didnt-do-the-thing-and-thats-probably-1826193438

 

And I moved the quote into the AoS in the Media thread because I thought that it belongs more in there than here.

 

Which sounds like they couldn't show

Spoiler

the Snap

because of the fact, the movie release date was moved up a couple of weeks. Now, I want to call BS on this and I think what happened was that Feige just didn't fill them in on what was going to happen. Pretty much the other two "tie-ins" were just base on the previews and some guesswork. Part of me is not surprised to see that it didn't happen, part of me is angry that they didn't do it but decided to shoehorn other, IMO, weaker tie-ins (by just having people mentioned that a big battle is happening off screen not once but twice), and part of me is disappointed at the show for not doing it. 

16 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I'm annoyed because this is the second time they had Fitz cross some serious lines without repercussion. What he did went far beyond what anyone else on the team has done, and it's irritating that his actions continually get handwaved. I don't get why they keep having Fitz commit such heinous acts if they're simply going to gloss over it.

 

Well, even Simmons this season was crossing lines (and in my opinion, she already crossed a moral line when she wanted to leave Will on that alien planet. She literally wanted to abandon someone on an alien planet. In some places that could be considered to be murder, IMO) as well and it seems that all have been forgotten (again). Last season was the same thing with Simmons. Once she found out about Fitz hiding AIDA she just decided to blackmail (which is literally a crime) Mace. Then she just made excuses for Fitz about his Framework technology and of hiding AIDA. Not to mention that for some reason being shot in the leg and nearly dying from Fitz (and having Radcliffe being the one that saved her. The show's mad-scientist saved Simmons' life in the Framework) is enough to instantly forgive him. This season she went off the rails because she was so certain that she and Fitz would survive everything (because of the whole Deke was their grandson and that she thought that they will live long enough to have a daughter together) and thus she tricked Mack, locked Mack in Fitz's cell, and broke Fitz out. Then she and Fitz went to England and they got captured by Ruby/Hydra and then they fixed the machine (that had to be named, "The Destroyer of Worlds") that would've resulted in blowing up the world (or the machine that was assumed to be it). Ruby started to absorb the gravitonium and then she was killed by Yo-Yo. Simmons was much as responsible for the world being threatened by Talbot-Gravitron as much as Fitz was. What I don't get is why people are so okay with this character. Clearly, she doesn't care about SHIELD and/or saving the world but in earlier episodes, she was written like she was willing to literally let a man die on another alien planet (with no sun, btw) for allegedly, "save the world from IT". 

 

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's hard to say what Fitz did and didn't tell Daisy, since we were shown things as a conversation between Fitz and his Doctor persona, part of which Daisy heard. So it may be that Daisy did have some awareness of why and still objected.

A reasonable person still might object to undergoing the power-restoring surgery since a) it might kill or cripple them and they put their own personal well-being over the fates of numerous others b) they might not buy that restoring powers is the only/best way of limiting the fear dimension's influence c) they might think that empowering her would potentially bring about a worse fate in terms of becoming the Destroyer of Worlds, and thus not worth the risk. 

I think that Daisy fell in the last category, implicitly or explicitly.

 

Fitz didn't talk to Daisy. What he did was just take her and forced an operation against her will. I guess that most people would call that torturing a person and my guess is that the ethics behind that sort of thing really doesn't make Fitz into the hero at all. And trying to say that Daisy's refusal would've put the fate of the world in a much worse spot gets, IMO, to a moot place when a few episodes later Fitz and Simmons does exactly that with fixing the Hydra machine. 

6 hours ago, Unclejosh said:

I wish Henry Simmons played a different type of character because I just watched the entire season over this past weekend and as much as I love Henry and Mack in action mode and his general badassery, the sanctimonious preaching about morality and God got VERY tiresome when viewed back to back.  I like my characters a little morally gray and willing to do whatever is necessary to beat the bad guys even if that includes outright killing with no speechifying or hand-wringing or passing judgement on those that are willing to do it.  I am looking forward to seeing him lead but hope they tone down that "moral center of the team" aspect a little.  Doubt they will but one can hope.

In Season 3 I found Mack to be a bit self-righteous and annoying (mostly during the part where Daisy was under Hive's "influence") but in this season not so much. He was as much a victim of Simmons' off the rails behavior and Fitz's split Doctor persona that he should criticize them. Not to mention that he literally loss his daughter, Hope, twice thanks to Fitz and also (partially) to Simmons and his steady (and by now) long-term girlfriend had to murder a Hydra junior member (Ruby) because of, again, Fitz and Simmons' actions. 

5 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

When it comes to Fitz, Mack has every right to criticize Fitz's behavior. In terms of the whole 'killing' issue, I'd blame the writing on that. I could understand Mack being hesitant about killing due to being a mechanic who was being roped into special ops, but Daisy was tasked with killing Donnie in season two when he became a threat, so killing people is part of the job. It was even suggested to kill Mike during the premiere episode, so it's not like the organization doesn't kill (I know Coulson avoids it if possible at times, but we're not dealing with a superhero group who has a 'no kill' policy, like in some comic books).

I think part of the issue is a balancing act between this technically being a 'superhero' show (due to being set in the MCU) and the team being part of a spy organization that necessitates some hard calls at times, but I don't think the writers have the best grasp on what to do or how to handle it. Certain characters and plots get dropped (like Agent Weaver, the Council, Vijay), and the writers get confused (like bringing Fitz and Simmons together at the end of season two without addressing any of the issues that divided them that season, or Daisy thanking Fitz at the end of season four for something Mack actually did).

Well, I agree that it's a balancing issue but that it seems like these characters always resort to killing first and not second or third. I mean I thought that it was great that they had Jessica Jones, in Season 1 of her show, not be on some killing spree with Killgrave but actually tried to capture and have him confess his crimes before trying to kill him. I usually prefer the not so kill happy characters because the killing part seems so final in everything. Like I would rather have the villains be to capture/contained than to be killed off because then at least you can have them appear in other seasons/episodes. But once you kill off a character there is basically little to no chance of them coming back- unless it's some convoluted plotline, IMO. 

I do remember that back in Season 2 we met a guy that was one of SHIELD's "retired" hitman but since he was a good guy he was allowed to live through his retirement. So we do know that SHIELD does kill people, and probably put out professional hits/execute people but that is also something that I remember Captain America being upset about during the Winter Soldier. So again, I agree it's all about balancing out things but, IMO, it's also keeping the characters within doing things that are "in" their characters. It just seems that over the course of 5 seasons all of the main characters have been written all over the place, IMO. You have Simmons who was very willing to allow someone to live on an alien planet because of "It" might get over to Earth and then these past two seasons (4 and 5) was very willing to allow things to slip because it involves Fitz. Or you have Daisy who was very willing to kill Donny Gill (again, another potential villain that, IMO, was wasted in the earlier seasons), or May who was ready to kill Daisy if "need to be" in Season 3 because she posied a big threat while being under Hive's influence, etc... Now, these characters are more so (basically all of them) willing to allow the Earth to be destroyed because one of them being threatened. 

Edited by TVSpectator
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3 hours ago, Unclejosh said:

I wish Henry Simmons played a different type of character because I just watched the entire season over this past weekend and as much as I love Henry and Mack in action mode and his general badassery, the sanctimonious preaching about morality and God got VERY tiresome when viewed back to back.  I like my characters a little morally gray and willing to do whatever is necessary to beat the bad guys even if that includes outright killing with no speechifying or hand-wringing or passing judgement on those that are willing to do it.  I am looking forward to seeing him lead but hope they tone down that "moral center of the team" aspect a little.  Doubt they will but one can hope.

Has Mack always been a religious guy since I honestly don't  remember if it has come up before or not. And when religion does show up in mcu shows always bugs me because it always feels like how religious people deal with life in the mcu is something that has never really been explored. Considering that in thw space of a few years people on earth found out that aliens existed and we are not alone in the universe. And then they found out that a guy who people once worshipped as a god actually exists, and he's not Jesus. I have always wondered how those 2 things have messed with people's heads.

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9 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Has Mack always been a religious guy since I honestly don't  remember if it has come up before or not. And when religion does show up in mcu shows always bugs me because it always feels like how religious people deal with life in the mcu is something that has never really been explored. Considering that in thw space of a few years people on earth found out that aliens existed and we are not alone in the universe. And then they found out that a guy who people once worshipped as a god actually exists, and he's not Jesus. I have always wondered how those 2 things have messed with people's heads.

When the team first meet Yo-Yo as a local Inhuman rebel she had on the crucifix and Mac used his faith as a connection to her.

I can't see any Disney show going further than Steve Rogers in The Avengers  backed up by Ego In GOTG Vol 2 and just think okay alien but that's not the big G God.

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2 hours ago, Raja said:

When the team first meet Yo-Yo as a local Inhuman rebel she had on the crucifix and Mac used his faith as a connection to her.

I can't see any Disney show going further than Steve Rogers in The Avengers  backed up by Ego In GOTG Vol 2 and just think okay alien but that's not the big G God.

A crucifix has Jesus on it, while a cross is just a plain cross with no Jesus on it. What Elena had was just a cross necklace

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7 hours ago, paigow said:

Deke disappeared when Fitz died...he will reappear when VanillaIceFitz defrosts...

We don’t know that Deke disappeared. 

Thats probably why he wasn’t with them in the final showdown, so they could leave it open as to whether he vanished or not. 

Hmm, I wonder

if maybe they were originally going to have him disappear on screen but then cut it because they didn’t want the ambiguity of whether it was happening because of timelines or the movie.

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11 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

We don’t know that Deke disappeared. 

Thats probably why he wasn’t with them in the final showdown, so they could leave it open as to whether he vanished or not. 

Hmm, I wonder

  Hide contents

if maybe they were originally going to have him disappear on screen but then cut it because they didn’t want the ambiguity of whether it was happening because of timelines or the movie.

 Didn't Deke tell Daisy he wouldn't be there when they got back?  I thought he made it clear he was leaving then, figuring that either they would change the timeline and he'd cease to exist or the the loop would continue and he was going to enjoy the real world before it broke apart.  Either way, he wasn't going too spend his limited time in the lighthouse.  I think they'll find in season 6 that he didn't disappear.   That was just an assumption everyone made, but these are the same people that assumed time couldn't be changed and they were invincible.  

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6 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Didn't Deke tell Daisy he wouldn't be there when they got back?  I thought he made it clear he was leaving then, figuring that either they would change the timeline and he'd cease to exist or the the loop would continue and he was going to enjoy the real world before it broke apart.  Either way, he wasn't going too spend his limited time in the lighthouse.  I think they'll find in season 6 that he didn't disappear.   That was just an assumption everyone made, but these are the same people that assumed time couldn't be changed and they were invincible.  

Yeah I do think that Deke didn't just cease to exist and that he just left them. As with the future begin changed I am a bit weary about it only because this is a show that established that the future can't be changed since Season 3.

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14 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Didn't Deke tell Daisy he wouldn't be there when they got back?  I thought he made it clear he was leaving then, figuring that either they would change the timeline and he'd cease to exist or the the loop would continue and he was going to enjoy the real world before it broke apart.  Either way, he wasn't going too spend his limited time in the lighthouse.  I think they'll find in season 6 that he didn't disappear.   That was just an assumption everyone made, but these are the same people that assumed time couldn't be changed and they were invincible.  

He did say that he wasn't going to be there when they got back. Which is why none of the characters asked about him. Deke went to see the world outside of the lighthouse. If he disappeared or not will be revealed in season 6 I'd imagine.

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I really enjoyed that finale! Not as good as the AIDA plot but pretty darn good.

Yay to making Mack the big boss!

I didn't mind Deke so I was glad that he walked away to enjoy his last days. I'm glad they didn't go the Deke/Daisy route but I liked their last chat with each other.

Fitz's death was very well written and acted imo. I bawled even though I knew they had another one on ice that they were probably going to drag back with them.

I was briefly pissed at Daisy for wanting to save Coulson instead of the earth but I forgave her when she quaked Graviton's ass into space! Her goodbye to Coulson at the end broke my heart a bit. That was a lovely scene and really highlighted the special bond between them.

The May and Coulson scene at the end was so lovely and tragic at the same time.

Very good season finale for a very good show! 

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As someone who didn't have time to watch Infinity War until last week, I feel that any tie-in between the show and the movie shouldn't spoil the ending of the movie.  So a non-specific reference to stuff happening in New York is good, but reflecting the movie ending would be bad in my book.

I could write a book on my views of temporal mechanics, but suffice it to say that I think time travel should be treated the way magic often is portrayed: there is no single way it works and the rules can shift.  Or, different methods of time travel affect the timeline in different ways.  Or, repeated use of time travel should be written in such a way as to troll overly nit-picky continuity cops.

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My understanding is that the time travel works in the standard Marvel comic way (although there are a number of contradictions).  Time travel is not really a thing.  In one of the early comics The Thing traveled to the past and prevented himself from going into space.  When he returned to his time, nothing changed.  He simply created an alternate timeline where he wasn't mutated.  Similarly, for Days of Future Past, people from the future traveled to the present and changed things but that just made their own timeline an alternate one.  It still existed on its own and travel between the two was still possible it just won't be our future.  I'm a big fan of this style of time travel as it prevents paradoxes. The time gem/stone works differently as it is actually capable of rewriting reality so it can actually change the past/future.

 

In that case, Deke should still exist.  He comes from an alternate timeline which still exists (which means that the work they did to free those humans did count for something).  Also, the Fitz who married Simmons was not our Fitz but one from the timeline where the Earth broke.  

 

One issue I had with this arc is there didn't seem to be anything that caused the future to be different.  It would have been one thing if this was a first go through, but future Yo-Yo made it clear that they were effectively in a time loop (she similarly travel to the future like our Yo-Yo did and even got the same warning).  So what happened this time that didn't occur previous loops?  Best I can tell Phil made more of an effort not the take the Centipede serum.  But the fact that I'm guessing means that it wasn't really a satisfying conclusion to breaking the loop.

 

Also, the fight with Talbot made no sense.  He should have had some time to use his powers to push himself back to Earth, best I can tell Daisy must have hit him with such a blast that it killed him instantly (like rupturing his heart or something, assuming that was even possible since he could sort of turn liquid).  The CGI for Tahiti was really bad too.

 

That said, I did like the episode.  It was a great send off for Coulson and I liked how they didn't just make him recovering be him being cured.  Similarly, I liked how they remembered Space Fitz which was what jumped into my mind after he died (although it looked like the rubble caved his head in when the rubble fell on him so I was surprised at first that he survived).  Though it still seems kind of crappy that they didn't acknowledge that a Fitz did actually die.

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A week late, but better late than never.  Not too much else to say that hasn't already been mentioned.  I'll keep it short.  Overall, a Season, my opinion overall hasn't been this weak since Season One, but this episode, wow, again, Fitz, of the main crew, my favorite character.

I cried with Mack and May for Fitz.

Unless it was said Deke poofed, he's still there in some way... but way for the show to forget about him in the end there.

Probably isn't the end of Talbot.  Again, I just felt, there is a way to do "I'm the good guy" antagonist, but I don't think Talbot was done well.

Simmons finds Enoch's ship.

May and Coulson at the end were sweet.

After a strong ending, and I'm somewhat in the camp that this should have been a series finale, I'm glad it's coming back next year, but where to go from here?

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On 5/23/2018 at 9:09 AM, Mellowyellow said:

I really enjoyed that finale! Not as good as the AIDA plot but pretty darn good.

Yay to making Mack the big boss!

I didn't mind Deke so I was glad that he walked away to enjoy his last days. I'm glad they didn't go the Deke/Daisy route but I liked their last chat with each other.

Fitz's death was very well written and acted imo. I bawled even though I knew they had another one on ice that they were probably going to drag back with them.

I was briefly pissed at Daisy for wanting to save Coulson instead of the earth but I forgave her when she quaked Graviton's ass into space! Her goodbye to Coulson at the end broke my heart a bit. That was a lovely scene and really highlighted the special bond between them.

The May and Coulson scene at the end was so lovely and tragic at the same time.

Very good season finale for a very good show! 

I completely forgot about Frozen Fitz so I was LIVID from that scene on. I didn't even pick up on it when Simmons talked about him at the end. Once it finally dawned on me and I watched the finale again with Mr. Gothish, I was able to enjoy it much more. It really was very well done. 

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