S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Which also hints at how her grooming of Paige was a sham - I think Claudia never saw Paige as useful either.

Yes! Next week still gives us time for Paige's lack of skills will cause a problem, but if it doesn't the whole thing maybe adds up to a big sham. Which is kind of cool. Claudia was putting on a show that Paige could be Russian but really she was just trying to keep Elizabeth on track. She was fine using Paige, of course, both as a lure for Elizabeth and as a source, but she didn't really see her as an honorary Russian. It was only Elizabeth who had this fantasy of Paige being a KGB officer with a cushy job where she didn't have to do anything ugly. That whole plan crumbled much like the original views of the revolution.

If nothing else comes of Paige trying to be a spy and not having the skills (and something might) we might look back and see everything about her story this season as a sad sham. Paige politely pretends to "get it" so she can be in the club. Elizabeth desperately pretends she's getting it, both spy-wise and culturally. It was just a charade--just as much of a charade as the original one. (Meanwhile Philip goes through the lonelier charade of being a successful businessman...)

It also makes me think that Paige maybe really did just flat-out not believe Claudia talking about having sex for food, or maybe even the rats.

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I think Elizabeth definitely should have told the truth there - but I think Paige was upset about both. You don't use the word "whore" if you aren't upset about the sex aspect.

Absolutely. I don't think we can just discount exactly what forced her to admit the truth to herself. She herself says she always knew on some level--of course she did. Yet she's able to happily go along with a guy shooting himself in the face and her mother covered in blood (it's not like she brought in the murders once she was accusing her of lying) but can't get over a second hand story about a drunk 21-year-old intern saying he slept with an older woman who tricked him so that must be Elizabeth? The sex was always key. I think she quite possibly went over there to call Elizabeth a whore as much, if not more, as to call her a liar.

Also interesting that the other person who got accused of something similar was Philip by Elizabeth, when she accused him of wanting to sleep with Kimmy because he wouldn't help kidnap her. Philip, that I recall, has never used those kinds of insults on Elizabeth.

I wonder if Paige's line about Philip not wanting to be in the same room with her made an impression. That's what inspired Elizabeth's "Excuse me?!" I just wonder if that line might make her think of things from another perspective, kind of like when Henry described Elizabeth as sad to Philip. Elizabeth knows there's been tension between her and Philip and Paige is of course inaccurate in what she's saying about Philip here, but it makes me wonder if Elizabeth would be struck by someone actually saying that Philip is repulsed by *her* instead of vice versa. It's also a bit like when Martha was talking about Philip in bed and Elizabeth was shocked into listening to this foreign perspective.

I mean, all season Philip's been either dismissed or pitied by his family. Elizabeth's been openly furious at him more than once, been truly nasty to him in ways he's not being to her. Paige has been right long with her in being dismissive but now that she's angry at her mother she finds it easy to throw in a different perspective that suddenly puts Philip in the more powerful position. This after Philip himself revealed that he had more going on than met the eye in the previous episode.

[Umbelina]

17 hours ago, Erin9 said:

While I think Tatiana’s murder just as she was about to murder Nesterenko should get the wheels turning for Soviet leadership- it would certainly be more expedient and direct for Philip’s note to make it into the right hands. I hope it does. And it would be interesting to say the least if Stan knew his frenemy Oleg and his best friend Philip collaborated on this little project. 

Not even possible.

Oleg can't read it without his one-time pad, and it's in the hands of the FBI now.  If Oleg had time to decode it?  He might pass on the gist of the information to Stan, who would buck it up the chain, and the president or someone in power might let Gorbachev know.  Since Oleg doens't even know what it says?  Probably not going to happen.

I suppose if they searched his room and found the decoding pad?  Maybe.  That would be the only way.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not even possible.

Oleg can read it without his one-time pad, and it's in the hands of the FBI now.  If Oleg had time to decode it?  He might pass on the gist of the information to Stan, who would buck it up the chain, and the president or someone in power might let Gorbachev know.  Since Oleg doens't even know what it says?  Probably not going to happen.

I suppose if they searched his room and found the decoding pad?  Maybe.  That would be the only way.

Stan could do something with it. Maybe. Not that it would be easy, but he could. Oleg’s suggestion, while improbable, isn’t impossible. 

[sistermagpie]

Oh, I just realized after writing the earlier post about Paige's line to Elizabeth about Philip that she does the same thing with Henry, claiming that Henry going to boarding school was a way of getting as far away from Elizabeth as possible. Basically in response to hearing about Elizabeth sleeping with Jackson Paige is trying to tell her she's unlovable in every way--something Elizabeth said to Claudia back in S1 when she implied she loved Zhukov. (Elizabeth seemed to be thinking about herself then too.)

So Paige is telling Elizabeth that she's a whore, that this makes her unfit for her husband, that her husband doesn't want to be in the same room with her because of it and that her son wanted to get as far away from her as possible.

[Dev F]

37 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I've never thought of Tatiana in that way. She was head of an important operation - much more important than Oleg's, and was even offered her own Residentura in (Africa?) - and she didn't have the family connections Oleg had.

Yep. I always thought of Tatiana as roughly equal in importance to Arkady before he became the rezident -- that is, she eventually rotated in to take over most of his old duties after he moved up to take over Vasili's.

Though I also see interesting echoes to the way many viewers reacted to Nina early in season 1. People saw her as this poor little embassy secretary embroiled in a web of espionage she couldn't hope to manage, and the showrunners had to sort of sheepishly explain in interviews that, no, she was actually a trained spy like everyone else, just one on her first international posting. There's a tendency, I think, to assume that the Rezidentura folks (maybe particularly the female ones?) are helpless desk jockeys unless we're given specific evidence to the contrary, but I think the writers intended for them all to be field capable.

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes! Next week still gives us time for Paige's lack of skills will cause a problem, but if it doesn't the whole thing maybe adds up to a big sham. Which is kind of cool. Claudia was putting on a show that Paige could be Russian but really she was just trying to keep Elizabeth on track. She was fine using Paige, of course, both as a lure for Elizabeth and as a source, but she didn't really see her as an honorary Russian. It was only Elizabeth who had this fantasy of Paige being a KGB officer with a cushy job where she didn't have to do anything ugly. That whole plan crumbled much like the original views of the revolution.

I'm a bit less cynical than that. I think that Claudia was doing her damndest to prep Paige for the life, but recognized that Elizabeth's squeamishness was impeding her efforts. Claudia was trying to toughen them both up at the same time, and the failure for Elizabeth to rise to her expectations meant that Paige would inevitably fall short as well.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

Stan could do something with it. Maybe. Not that it would be easy, but he could. Oleg’s suggestion, while improbable, isn’t impossible. 

Stan would have to steal evidence (no WAY they would release that to Stan) and personally take Oleg back to his hotel, wait for Oleg to decode it, and take Oleg's word for what it said, and then watch Oleg DESTROY the evidence so he doesn't implicate Philip and Elizabeth.

All very improbable.

After Elizabeth and Philip are dead or caught?  Even then?  Improbable.  Elizabeth or Philip's dying words are more probable to be passed on.

[TimWil]

This episode more than ever reinforced my belief that Keri Russell would be an astonishing Beth Jarrett in a remake of Ordinary People.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

I'm a bit less cynical than that. I think that Claudia was doing her damndest to prep Paige for the life, but recognized that Elizabeth's squeamishness was impeding her efforts. Claudia was trying to toughen them both up at the same time, and the failure for Elizabeth to rise to her expectations meant that Paige would inevitably fall short as well.

I don't think Claudia had much to do with prepping Paige for the life, though. She was just there to show movies and play music. It was Elizabeth who was completely in charge of making Paige into a spy. I can't think of any scenes where Elizabeth's squeamishness was ever an impediment to anything Claudia was doing. Elizabeth was the one taking her out to murder sites etc.

I don't think my reading is as cynical as it sounds. It's not that Claudia's lying exactly. She just doesn't really need Paige to turn magically into a post-WWII Soviet because she doesn't believe any American could do that. So she was fine with the girl she had--she just didn't have the distorted glasses that Elizabeth did about it.

[Erin9]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Stan would have to steal evidence (no WAY they would release that to Stan) and personally take Oleg back to his hotel, wait for Oleg to decode it, and take Oleg's word for what it said, and then watch Oleg DESTROY the evidence so he doesn't implicate Philip and Elizabeth.

All very improbable.

After Elizabeth and Philip are dead or caught?  Even then?  Improbable.  Elizabeth or Philip's dying words are more probable to be passed on.

Improbable, but I’d like to see something along those lines happen.

It would certainly be proof that Stan really listened to Oleg. And took a real risk of his own. It’s notable to me that Stan hasn’t had to risk anything. Oleg, Philip, Elizabeth, even Claudia have all taken huge risks for what they believe in. Then there’s Stan. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Erin9

[SusanSunflower]

Claudia needed Elizabeth to know that Paige would be taken care of (should Elizabeth fall in the field)  in order to facilitate the blue-pill secret operation ... and also needed Paige to turn to Claudia (designated mother substitute) if she had any doubts / freakouts should Elizabeth be "in disposed" during and after the summit (rather than running after Phillip, for instance) ... and as yet, Paige still does not know that Claudia was using her mother as a pawn/fall-guy for the plot (since Elizabeth would be the one to be doing the killing, successfully or not).   

Paige's mind would be blown trying to figure out "who's the traitor (and to what)?"   

If Oleg's message is out of reach, somehow they need Elizabeth to explain this mini-plot within the larger plot against the success of the summit.  Unlikely to be figured out otherwise. 

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's only been a couple of minutes at that point, and the agents also had to get back to the agency.

I really doubt that they rallied that entire room full of agents in less than 45 minutes. In any case, if Stan doesn't have the photos in front of him, Phil identified, in the first couple of minutes of the episode, then the writers have decided to go to "The FBI is comprised of idiots" well, yet once more, which would be unfortunate.

The film development thing isn't a big deal, as long as it is addressed quickly in the next episode. The bigger groaner is that the FBI, on perhaps their most important stakeout ever. doesn't have 50 agents in a perimeter two blocks back from the park that the priest walked into, excluding the possibility of escape. The 800 meter gold medalist should have no shot, much less a middle aged man.

[Erin9]

8 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

If Oleg's message is out of reach, somehow they need Elizabeth to explain this mini-plot within the larger plot against the success of the summit.  Unlikely to be figured out otherwise. 

Philip can explain it just as easily as Elizabeth. He wrote the note to Oleg. 

[Umbelina]

That's also been explained, they are stretched very thin following all the Russians in town, as well as doing their regular work.

I know it's your thing that the FBI as presented is incompetent, but I just don't see it that way.  It's not an NCIS episode where everything is resolved in 45 minutes, and in real life, most FBI cases took years.  They aren't superheros.

[SusanSunflower]

I don't think Phillip's word would carry the same clout .... he's been "iffy" and largely out of action for 3 years, and Claudia loathes him.  It would be Elizabeth's word against Claudia (denying everything except Elizabeth's instability or whatever)  .... dangerous and outcome uncertain ... 

I read on these boards that Gorbachev was wanted of the plot and did not believe it.  

Whose orders was Tatiana following?   Proof?  How did Elizabeth know where, when to intercept?  Evidence? 

Philip + Oleg + Elizabeth .... better. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm surprised no one has tried to draw any parallel between Tatiana dying on the street and E's experience when she was younger with the comrade and horse dying.

 

I can see the parallel, totally. Elizabeth, yet again, left a comrade dying on the street for the sake of her mission. Just that it was under very different contexts and circumstances. 

Do we think Philip would have left the guy, the cop, and the horse dying on the road and carried on the mission training session, or would he have stopped to help? I totally knew Elizabeth would leave them, even just for training, but I dont know for sure what Philip would have done. He is certainly a professional who has done awful things in the name of his mission, but he also the one who has always been a more independent thinker who sees more to life than the motherland. See, this is why I want more Philip flashbacks! Despite all these years, and him being the more emotional and empathetic one, I feel like I know Elizabeth so much better than I know Philip. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Dev F]

30 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The bigger groaner is that the FBI, on perhaps their most important stakeout ever. doesn't have 50 agents in a perimeter two blocks back from the park that the priest walked into, excluding the possibility of escape.

But the FBI didn't know that this particular stakeout was super important. It was one of several possible leads suggested by their surveillance of Harvest, and they had no way of knowing that it would be more fruitful than staking out the garages or tracking the used cars. If they assigned absolutely everyone to follow Father Andrei, he could've just as easily gone grocery shopping that day while an illegal showed up at one of the garages they left unsurveilled. Better to keep a few eyes on every possibility than every eye on one possibility and no eyes on anything else.

59 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think Claudia had much to do with prepping Paige for the life, though. She was just there to show movies and play music. It was Elizabeth who was completely in charge of making Paige into a spy. I can't think of any scenes where Elizabeth's squeamishness was ever an impediment to anything Claudia was doing. Elizabeth was the one taking her out to murder sites etc.

But I think that's because Claudia understood what Elizabeth wouldn't admit: that prepping Paige for the life wasn't just about running her through a highly sanitized version of surveillance school, but also about getting her to understand that she was entering a life of sacrifice and suffering -- indeed, trying to get her to see the nobility of a life of sacrifice and suffering. Claudia played Tchaikovsky for her not to show her that Russian music is pretty but to impress upon her that his greatness came from death and loneliness and inspired her when her own life was filled with death and loneliness. It was all theoretical, sure, but meanwhile Elizabeth was wildly failing to introduce her to the practical demands of the job; the Tchaikovsky scene is immediately juxtaposed with the "That book is totally wrong about honeytraps!" scene that leads directly into the confrontation between Paige and her mother in this episode.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

but can't get over a second hand story about a drunk 21-year-old intern saying he slept with an older woman

It's not a second-hand story. She heard it from the drunken and distraught Jackson as she attended the intern party with Brian.  At least that was my takeaway.

[J-Man]

19 minutes ago, Cardie said:

It's not a second-hand story. She heard it from the drunken and distraught Jackson as she attended the intern party with Brian.  At least that was my takeaway.

No -- she wasn't at the party. Brian told her about the incident later. 

[Umbelina]

It was a party for a bunch of interns, and since Paige always asks Brian about his work, and people he meets, and since it was  pretty disturbing and weird Brian wanted to tell his girlfriend?  He did.

Paige put it together immediately since Jackson was Nunn's intern, and she knows Elizabeth's main spying is about Nunn and the Summit.  I think Paige has even helped spy during the Nunn spying.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Umbelina

[jjj]

56 minutes ago, J-Man said:

No -- she wasn't at the party. Brian told her about the incident later. 

Later, as in a few hours later.  All this happened last night while Elizabeth was out in patrol watching the diplomat.  

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, TimWil said:

This episode more than ever reinforced my belief that Keri Russell would be an astonishing Beth Jarrett in a remake of Ordinary People.

I always found Beth to be far, far more sympathetic than I think that movie intended her to be, moreso as I get older and lose people.  I find her need for control and privacy understandable responses to unfathomable grief.

Likewise, I also think Elizabeth's teenage rape is undervalued as a formative event at the core of her being.  Her "How important is sex, anyway?!" retort to Paige is the response of an ideologue, yes, but it's also the response of a person for whom the idea of sex has been permanently, irrevocably warped.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Penman61

[lazylou]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip had good reason to think he'd be recognized soon since the FBI was watching the meet with Father Andrei. Much safer to just tell Elizabeth to run herself and meet him. They must have a spot where to go etc.

The Feebs say they are waiting for surveillance footage -- from the meet with Father Andrei, apparently. But in 1987, how much footage would there be?  maybe the video mentioned is of more garages.  Maybe one of the watchers has a camera.

if Stan sees Philip on a video, he will likely recognize him disguised or not...he will be able to recognize him by the way he moves.  So I agree.  Better for Philip to assume he is blown and to warn Elizabeth right away.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

But the FBI didn't know that this particular stakeout was super important. It was one of several possible leads suggested by their surveillance of Harvest, and they had no way of knowing that it would be more fruitful than staking out the garages or tracking the used cars. If they assigned absolutely everyone to follow Father Andrei, he could've just as easily gone grocery shopping that day while an illegal showed up at one of the garages they left unsurveilled. Better to keep a few eyes on every possibility than every eye on one possibility and no eyes on anything else.

But I think that's because Claudia understood what Elizabeth wouldn't admit: that prepping Paige for the life wasn't just about running her through a highly sanitized version of surveillance school, but also about getting her to understand that she was entering a life of sacrifice and suffering -- indeed, trying to get her to see the nobility of a life of sacrifice and suffering. Claudia played Tchaikovsky for her not to show her that Russian music is pretty but to impress upon her that his greatness came from death and loneliness and inspired her when her own life was filled with death and loneliness. It was all theoretical, sure, but meanwhile Elizabeth was wildly failing to introduce her to the practical demands of the job; the Tchaikovsky scene is immediately juxtaposed with the "That book is totally wrong about honeytraps!" scene that leads directly into the confrontation between Paige and her mother in this episode.

They are in the midst of a KGB murder spree that has been going on for weeks, on the eve of the most important summit meetings with Soviet political leadership since Yalta or Potsdam. The FBI should have a thousand agents brought in from the country at large. There is literally nothing they could be doing which could begin to approach the importance of running down every lead, with a massive amount of manpower. If that means that 50 agents are assigned to watching an orthodox priest known to interact with the KGB, as he goes grocery shopping, so be it. Yes, the FBI was far from error free, and made all sorts if bureaucratic errors, some huge. They did know how to execute a stakeout that a middle aged man couldn't run away from.

[jjj]

I agree Andrei needed surveillance, but they had only learned about him an hour or two ago.  Great they could track him down and get three or four agents on a long shot.  And Elizabeth always had many photos from her surveillance jobs, so I expect the same from the FBI!

I come back to, why were they not going crazy over the assassination of a Rezidentura officer and her attempted murder of a significant diplomat?  Where was all the FBI coverage at the Summit?  And the mystery woman who killed the Rezidentura officer -- no hunt happening for her? 

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

They are in the midst of a KGB murder spree that has been going on for weeks, on the eve of the most important summit meetings with Soviet political leadership since Yalta or Potsdam. The FBI should have a thousand agents brought in from the country at large. There is literally nothing they could be doing which could begin to approach the importance of running down every lead, with a massive amount of manpower. If that means that 50 agents are assigned to watching an orthodox priest known to interact with the KGB, as he goes grocery shopping, so be it. Yes, the FBI was far from error free, and made all sorts if bureaucratic errors, some huge. They did know how to execute a stakeout that a middle aged man couldn't run away from.

[Dowel Jones]

All I can say is that I wish I could manhandle my dryer the way Elizabeth did with hers.  I guess when your adrenaline is up...

I wonder if the scene in Russia when Elizabeth is being schooled about how she should have helped her comrade on the streets of Moscow will come back to haunt her if she is lying on the sidewalk, injured or dying, and Philip walks away from her.

I did have to laugh when Philip urged the Russian priest to buy a plane ticket "today" if he could.  I half expected the priest to say, "Do you know of a good travel agency?"  That, and Philip's too strenuous plea to Stan about getting an FBI contract.  I'm actually surprised they didn't try that in past seasons.  Federal contracts are highly sought after, and it wouldn't be at all suspicious for the travel agency to try to get in on it.

Note to Stan:  I don't know the capabilities of that database, but the fact that "Jennings, Philip" comes up as 6'2" black man is not automatically an indictment.  There might be one or two people by that name in the US.  Of course, this is way before Google and everyone looking up their own name.  Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have some namesakes.

[Ina123]

7 hours ago, TimWil said:

This episode more than ever reinforced my belief that Keri Russell would be an astonishing Beth Jarrett in a remake of Ordinary People.

Cold, man. Cold.

Try the reverse. Lovable, perky, and spunky MTM as Elizabeth Jennings. We already know that MTM can do cold.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Ina123

[Aulty]

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I did have to laugh when Philip urged the Russian priest to buy a plane ticket "today" if he could.  I half expected the priest to say, "Do you know of a good travel agency?"  That, and Philip's too strenuous plea to Stan about getting an FBI contract.  I'm actually surprised they didn't try that in past seasons.  Federal contracts are highly sought after, and it wouldn't be at all suspicious for the travel agency to try to get in on it.

Probably because this would mean backup-checks or at least the possibility of them. Far too hot a potatoe.

On another note:

I've recently rewatched some of the earlier episodes. Funny how Jared was able to waffle on for minutes about how he killed his parents after he got shot in the neck, while Tatiana dies almost instantly after being shot in the kidney area (and of course all the bystanders doing nothing)

Edited May 25, 2018 by Aulty

[Ina123]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I really doubt that they rallied that entire room full of agents in less than 45 minutes. In any case, if Stan doesn't have the photos in front of him, Phil identified, in the first couple of minutes of the episode, then the writers have decided to go to "The FBI is comprised of idiots" well, yet once more, which would be unfortunate.

I agree. But the FBI will almost have to be delayed for P and E to get to Henry. They are driving to NH. That takes time. If Stan spills the beans on who it is (of course if photos are clear Aderholt should recognize P too.)-one phone call and the FBI has LEOs all over that school and Henry.

The possibilities are endless. P calls Henry to semi explain for him to just go somewhere and lay low. (Eh...how to explain over the phone? Maybe Henry isn't even available).

Or, FBI gets to Henry first. This is my bet. Now, how to use Henry?

I have no idea what the writer's have planned. I just know I will probably be biting my nails.

[AllyB]

9 hours ago, Reneeiskgb said:

I just finished watching it on dvr (hated having to wait).  Not sure if this has been addressed- What is preventing Philip from simply going home?  It's probably something obvious, but I don't get it.  He's changed his clothes and look, and he evaded the FBI, so what is the issue?

Philip has to assume that the Fr Andrei has been arrested by the FBI. Not only does he know the FBI watched their meeting but the instant he ran, he tipped off the FBI to the fact that Fr Andrei was meeting a KGB agent. He knows Andrei well enough to know that he would never have been able to escape like he was. (And we know from seeing inside the FBI that they have indeed brought Andrei in for questioning.)

And Andrei knows Philip and Elizabeth very well. He has met them without disguise during their wedding ceremony. He's not a trained spy, he was stupid enough to arrange for one of the Jennings to meet with him after he suspected that the FBI was onto him. He will give a detailed description of both of the Jennings sooner or later. Probably sooner. The Jennings cover will be blown as soon as Andrei breaks and they have to assume that will be pretty much immediate and get the hell out of dodge.

Where they go will be a mystery as they can't aim for home after Elizabeth's actions in going so decidedly up against the KGB faction working to destroy Gorbachev. Especially as they can't contact their pro-Gorbachev allies as Oleg has been arrested. They can't really use any safe houses as they can't be sure they are safe from Claudia, though we know the FBI also seems to have a good guess on some of them due to the rent being paid in advance. Their plan at the end of S1 was to run for the Canadian border but back then Paige and Henry were easily put in the back of the car and taken with them. Now Henry's location and Paige's anger mean it will be too risky to go to them with no guarantee their children will cooperate. They may have to decide to leave their children behind, which puts Paige in great danger as she won't stand up to questioning by the FBI and will implicate herself. Though I don't think they can make it to Canada in under 9 hours, which would be more than enough time for Andrei to have given them up. So they would probably be best to go straight to the airport and catch the first flight to anywhere out of the US and get a message to Paige that she must do the same. But Paige is angry and stupid, so who knows what she would do.

And I'm not sure that P&E meeting in a hotel, putting on their duffel bag disguises and catching the first flight to anywhere would make for great tv. Even if the scenes were intercut with scenes of Andrei describing them to the FBI artist. Even if they taxi down the runway just as Stan shouts "I f*ing knew it!"

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

I agree. But the FBI will almost have to be delayed for P and E to get to Henry. They are driving to NH. That takes time. If Stan spills the beans on who it is (of course if photos are clear Aderholt should recognize P too.)-one phone call and the FBI has LEOs all over that school and Henry.

The possibilities are endless. P calls Henry to semi explain for him to just go somewhere and lay low. (Eh...how to explain over the phone? Maybe Henry isn't even available).

Or, FBI gets to Henry first. This is my bet. Now, how to use Henry?

I have no idea what the writer's have planned. I just know I will probably be biting my nails.

It would produce interesting conflict for Liz and Phil to call Henry, just ahead of the FBI arriving at the school, to try to convince him to go hide somewhere, while trying to avoid telling him why. Henry reacting with "Yo, I'm sick of this shit!" would be great, as would Paige saying "I can't believe I let you two freaks talk me into this crap!".

Edited May 25, 2018 by Bannon

[TheBride]

I think one of them is going to end up being a double agent for the USA. The prissy daughter may end up going to South America to live with the minister's family.

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

Philip has to assume that the Fr Andrei has been arrested by the FBI. Not only does he know the FBI watched their meeting but the instant he ran, he tipped off the FBI to the fact that Fr Andrei was meeting a KGB agent. He knows Andrei well enough to know that he would never have been able to escape like he was. (And we know from seeing inside the FBI that they have indeed brought Andrei in for questioning.)

And Andrei knows Philip and Elizabeth very well. He has met them without disguise during their wedding ceremony. He's not a trained spy, he was stupid enough to arrange for one of the Jennings to meet with him after he suspected that the FBI was onto him. He will give a detailed description of both of the Jennings sooner or later. Probably sooner. The Jennings cover will be blown as soon as Andrei breaks and they have to assume that will be pretty much immediate and get the hell out of dodge.

Where they go will be a mystery as they can't aim for home after Elizabeth's actions in going so decidedly up against the KGB faction working to destroy Gorbachev. Especially as they can't contact their pro-Gorbachev allies as Oleg has been arrested. They can't really use any safe houses as they can't be sure they are safe from Claudia, though we know the FBI also seems to have a good guess on some of them due to the rent being paid in advance. Their plan at the end of S1 was to run for the Canadian border but back then Paige and Henry were easily put in the back of the car and taken with them. Now Henry's location and Paige's anger mean it will be too risky to go to them with no guarantee their children will cooperate. They may have to decide to leave their children behind, which puts Paige in great danger as she won't stand up to questioning by the FBI and will implicate herself. Though I don't think they can make it to Canada in under 9 hours, which would be more than enough time for Andrei to have given them up. So they would probably be best to go straight to the airport and catch the first flight to anywhere out of the US and get a message to Paige that she must do the same. But Paige is angry and stupid, so who knows what she would do.

And I'm not sure that P&E meeting in a hotel, putting on their duffel bag disguises and catching the first flight to anywhere would make for great tv. Even if the scenes were intercut with scenes of Andrei describing them to the FBI artist. Even if they taxi down the runway just as Stan shouts "I f*ing knew it!"

Could Paige end up going to South America to live with the minister's family? Why bring him back into the plot?

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, jjj said:

I agree Andrei needed surveillance, but they had only learned about him an hour or two ago.  Great they could track him down and get three or four agents on a long shot.  And Elizabeth always had many photos from her surveillance jobs, so I expect the same from the FBI!

I come back to, why were they not going crazy over the assassination of a Rezidentura officer and her attempted murder of a significant diplomat?  Where was all the FBI coverage at the Summit?  And the mystery woman who killed the Rezidentura officer -- no hunt happening for her? 

My entire point is that this crisis has been on full boil now for weeks. The FBI should literally have called in a thousand agents from around the country, to deal with this crisis via the massive application of resources. They should have a chopper up almost continuously for any observation needs. Any tails or stakeouts should have dozens of agents available. The shooting of a known KGB agent near a Soviet diplomat should produce a swarm of activity.

[Plums]

So it just occurred to me that Elizabeth must be so sleep deprived right now. She's running on at least 24 hours and looks utterly exhausted by the time Philip calls her with the bug out code. The shot of adrenaline that gave her will only go so far. Her having the presence of mind to sentimentally grab the wedding rings is even more impressive to me now, lol. I can't help but feel though that the fact of her being so extremely sleep deprived is going to lead to something terrible. She can't afford to crash or lose an iota of concentration anytime in the near future.

[shura]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes! Next week still gives us time for Paige's lack of skills will cause a problem, but if it doesn't the whole thing maybe adds up to a big sham. Which is kind of cool. Claudia was putting on a show that Paige could be Russian but really she was just trying to keep Elizabeth on track. She was fine using Paige, of course, both as a lure for Elizabeth and as a source, but she didn't really see her as an honorary Russian. It was only Elizabeth who had this fantasy of Paige being a KGB officer with a cushy job where she didn't have to do anything ugly. That whole plan crumbled much like the original views of the revolution.

I'm a bit less cynical than that. I think that Claudia was doing her damndest to prep Paige for the life, but recognized that Elizabeth's squeamishness was impeding her efforts. Claudia was trying to toughen them both up at the same time, and the failure for Elizabeth to rise to her expectations meant that Paige would inevitably fall short as well.

I'll be be more cynical than that. It's most probably not what the writers intended, but in real life it could just very well be a classic example of Russian imitation of activity on Claudia's part. The out-of-touch higher-ups come up with a (stupid) idea and issue orders that everybody must follow without questioning (or else). So the middle management develops half-ass plans to implement the order, the people on the ground go through the motions of executing the plans, and nobody really cares whether the result is achieved or not, because the point is simply to demonstrate that everybody is doing something to follow the orders. 

BTW, what's so special about Claudia that she can't go and spray the guy with the cyanide herself? Or shoot him from a rooftop across the street? She is in on the coup plans, the excuse of having too few people doesn't work here.

4 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Note to Stan:  I don't know the capabilities of that database, but the fact that "Jennings, Philip" comes up as 6'2" black man is not automatically an indictment.  There might be one or two people by that name in the US.  Of course, this is way before Google and everyone looking up their own name.  Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have some namesakes.

I think that's exactly how Stan took it, actually - just a different person with the same name. It also looked like the date of birth made the guy in the database way older than Philip, although I may be wrong here.

[Plums]

5 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I don't know the capabilities of that database, but the fact that "Jennings, Philip" comes up as 6'2" black man is not automatically an indictment.

I've seen a lot of confusion wrt the database search. It's a criminal background check database. Stan wasn't looking to see if they were using false identities, a la William, that wouldn't be something that would have popped up- It wasn't a database of All The Names. I don't know what he was thinking he'd find. Maybe he was hoping something would pop up in the Jennings history that would explain their suspicious behavior that was NOT soviet espionage, but just standard criminal activity. Like a drug bust or theft or something. 

[SunnyBeBe]

11 hours ago, Reneeiskgb said:

I just finished watching it on dvr (hated having to wait).  Not sure if this has been addressed- What is preventing Philip from simply going home?  It's probably something obvious, but I don't get it.  He's changed his clothes and look, and he evaded the FBI, so what is the issue?

I'll also add that one reason that he called home and gave the alarm code to get things ready to go, is that P is not aware of how much the FBI knows.  He's not sure if his house may be under surveillance, the phones bugged, and he is not tipping off that anything is wrong. Just in case.  As long as the FBI doesn't realize they are on the run, it could buy them time. So, pretending to be planning to come home later, provides E time to gather their emergency supplies, cash, passport, etc.  and CAREFULLY meet at some prearranged place.  That's my guess at it. 

[stitcher73]

15 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

But, how did they know where Philip and the Priest would be located? Just that morning, the head priest gave Andre's name to the FBI, but, how would the FBI know they were going to the park? Did they follow P from a garage to the park or just get there to see him meet with Andre? I mean, it would be a great guess that they just happened to get there to see him with Philip by chance.

I thing I remember in the last episode (or the one before) they we watching ALL the russian priests in the area.  There can only be a few, right?

[SunnyBeBe]

Just now, stitcher73 said:

I thing I remember in the last episode (or the one before) they we watching ALL the russian priests in the area.  There can only be a few, right?

I suppose, but, someone posted around here that Andre lived at the church, so, all they had to do was watch to see where he went when he left the church.  That's a huge liability, imo, and I can't even fathom that P and E would ever have been meeting regularly with someone who just leaves their home and goes to a designated meeting place.  Anyone could have trailed him and saw him meeting with them.  It boggles the mind the characters would have done that, but, water under the bridge at this point.  It's really salt in the wound for me, because, I never bought that E would be that much into a religious sort of person. 

[stitcher73]

6 hours ago, lazylou said:

The Feebs say they are waiting for surveillance footage -- from the meet with Father Andrei, apparently. But in 1987, how much footage would there be?  maybe the video mentioned is of more garages.  Maybe one of the watchers has a camera.

if Stan sees Philip on a video, he will likely recognize him disguised or not...he will be able to recognize him by the way he moves.  So I agree.  Better for Philip to assume he is blown and to warn Elizabeth right away.

As Philip was walking out of the park a woman was walking towards him with her purse facing Philip.  This is the same tactic that Paige used in the hotel to film Nesterenko.  She had a video camera in her purse taking pics.

[terrymct]

On 5/24/2018 at 4:52 AM, renatae said:

That's something that has always stood out to me. In the 80's it was really rare for D.C. to get snow, and on the show they have it all the time, at least signs of it on the streets. My MIL lived there, and we were visiting one weekend when it was frigid and there was just a trace of snow, and everyone, especially on the news, kept going on about how this was record low temps. Later on, it became more like today, and snow is not a very unusual occurrence there now. But not then.

 

It wasn't rare to get snow in DC in the 80's.  I was born in DC, raised in the close in suburbs, and live there now.   We had several rather snowy years during that period.   Remember the Air Florida crash into the Potomac River?  January 1982.   The "megalopolitan blizzard" in 1983 set records, including one for Dulles Airport that was more than 20 inches in a day.  I remember my father having to sleep in his car on the Wilson Bridge (over the Potomac River, Beltway south of town) one night during a snowstorm in 1988 because people abandoned their cars.  On average, we get 3-4 storms a year but on a day to day basis we can get sloppy stuff that doesn't count as a storm and can be gone in a day or two.

All that said, the Washington Summit took place in December of 1987 and there was no snow on the ground that month.   It really doesn't worry me that the show has shown snow.  I'm happy that they got the season correct.   Many shows do a really bad job of portraying DC.  Snow capped rocky mountains just outside of town.   Oddly long or short distances between places.   The Americans doesn't actually show the DC area for the most part, but they're in the ballpark.

[J-Man]

I guess it was fortuitous that Liz was home when Philip called to invoke the nuclear option. After all, she rarely is at home lately. I suppose he could've left the message on their machine (since it was fairly innocuous) and Liz could've retrieved it remotely, but If she hadn't heard the message for several hours after Philip left it, things could've progressed quite differently. 

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

To me it's more like "Oh, honey, no." Hee. Margo Martindale is a queen.

Darn, the picture didn't come through the quote. Anyway, just finished a Killing Eve episode where the scene between the handler and the assassin was very similar. Your post made me see the parallel.

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He wasn't a "minor" character on House.  Oh, and for any that never watched that series?  Do.  It was fantastic, Hugh Laurie is amazing.

Hypochondriac here, stopped watching medical shows for my own health. LOL. But I do watch Colony, where the actor plays a major character.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes! Next week still gives us time for Paige's lack of skills will cause a problem, but if it doesn't the whole thing maybe adds up to a big sham. Which is kind of cool. Claudia was putting on a show that Paige could be Russian but really she was just trying to keep Elizabeth on track. She was fine using Paige, of course, both as a lure for Elizabeth and as a source, but she didn't really see her as an honorary Russian. It was only Elizabeth who had this fantasy of Paige being a KGB officer with a cushy job where she didn't have to do anything ugly. That whole plan crumbled much like the original views of the revolution.

If nothing else comes of Paige trying to be a spy and not having the skills (and something might) we might look back and see everything about her story this season as a sad sham. Paige politely pretends to "get it" so she can be in the club. Elizabeth desperately pretends she's getting it, both spy-wise and culturally. It was just a charade--just as much of a charade as the original one. (Meanwhile Philip goes through the lonelier charade of being a successful businessman...)

I hadn't thought it through to that level, but since Claudia's a handler, I think you may be right. Originally, I think she believed Paige would be an asset, but after seeing Paige not "get it" for so long, I think she's maintaining a charade to keep Elizabeth in hand.

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

Yep. I always thought of Tatiana as roughly equal in importance to Arkady before he became the rezident -- that is, she eventually rotated in to take over most of his old duties after he moved up to take over Vasili's.

Though I also see interesting echoes to the way many viewers reacted to Nina early in season 1. People saw her as this poor little embassy secretary embroiled in a web of espionage she couldn't hope to manage, and the showrunners had to sort of sheepishly explain in interviews that, no, she was actually a trained spy like everyone else, just one on her first international posting. There's a tendency, I think, to assume that the Rezidentura folks (maybe particularly the female ones?) are helpless desk jockeys unless we're given specific evidence to the contrary, but I think the writers intended for them all to be field capable.

Yes. The echoes are interesting, thanks for pointing them out.

10 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Claudia needed Elizabeth to know that Paige would be taken care of (should Elizabeth fall in the field)  in order to facilitate the blue-pill secret operation ... and also needed Paige to turn to Claudia (designated mother substitute) if she had any doubts / freakouts should Elizabeth be "in disposed" during and after the summit (rather than running after Phillip, for instance) ... and as yet, Paige still does not know that Claudia was using her mother as a pawn/fall-guy for the plot (since Elizabeth would be the one to be doing the killing, successfully or not).   

Paige's mind would be blown trying to figure out "who's the traitor (and to what)?"  

And her mind would never arrive at "I am, I am the traitor." Given, you know, that she's American.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Cold, man. Cold.

Try the reverse. Lovable, perky, and spunky MTM as Elizabeth Jennings. We already know that MTM can do cold.

Eh, from reading her autobiography, I ended up with the impression that MTM was a pretty cold person who was a good actor. Loved the Mary Tyler Moore show, so I wasn't primed for that impressioni.

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

And Andrei knows Philip and Elizabeth very well. He has met them without disguise during their wedding ceremony. He's not a trained spy, he was stupid enough to arrange for one of the Jennings to meet with him after he suspected that the FBI was onto him. He will give a detailed description of both of the Jennings sooner or later. Probably sooner. The Jennings cover will be blown as soon as Andrei breaks and they have to assume that will be pretty much immediate and get the hell out of dodge.

I was going to say the same thing, but you said it so much better.

58 minutes ago, Plums said:

I've seen a lot of confusion wrt the database search. It's a criminal background check database. Stan wasn't looking to see if they were using false identities, a la William, that wouldn't be something that would have popped up- It wasn't a database of All The Names. I don't know what he was thinking he'd find. Maybe he was hoping something would pop up in the Jennings history that would explain their suspicious behavior that was NOT soviet espionage, but just standard criminal activity. Like a drug bust or theft or something. 

Made me smile.

56 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'll also add that one reason that he called home and gave the alarm code to get things ready to go, is that P is not aware of how much the FBI knows.  He's not sure if his house may be under surveillance, the phones bugged, and he is not tipping off that anything is wrong. Just in case.  As long as the FBI doesn't realize they are on the run, it could buy them time. So, pretending to be planning to come home later, provides E time to gather their emergency supplies, cash, passport, etc.  and CAREFULLY meet at some prearranged place.  That's my guess at it. 

My take is that this was always the coded message either one of them would leave - and the plan of escape was set in stone (though it may have been updated over the years - say, Philip getting opened ended plane tickets for out of the country on a regular basis.)

50 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I suppose, but, someone posted around here that Andre lived at the church, so, all they had to do was watch to see where he went when he left the church.  That's a huge liability, imo, and I can't even fathom that P and E would ever have been meeting regularly with someone who just leaves their home and goes to a designated meeting place.  Anyone could have trailed him and saw him meeting with them.  It boggles the mind the characters would have done that, but, water under the bridge at this point.  It's really salt in the wound for me, because, I never bought that E would be that much into a religious sort of person. 

Gabriel used to meet with Andre, who was a source. Philip took over after Gabriel. Then Elizabeth took over when Philip "retired." Except for their wedding, I don't think religion had anything to do with the nature of their business.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think my reading is as cynical as it sounds. It's not that Claudia's lying exactly. She just doesn't really need Paige to turn magically into a post-WWII Soviet because she doesn't believe any American could do that. So she was fine with the girl she had--she just didn't have the distorted glasses that Elizabeth did about it.

Claudia was super gung-ho about Paige being a second-gen spy, though. Wouldn't she want Paige to succeed? Paige is so mediocre I can't believe Claudia is okay with her, especially after spending some time with her and seeing who she is. 

1 hour ago, shura said:

The out-of-touch higher-ups come up with a (stupid) idea and issue orders that everybody must follow without questioning (or else). So the middle management develops half-ass plans to implement the order, the people on the ground go through the motions of executing the plans, and nobody really cares whether the result is achieved or not, because the point is simply to demonstrate that everybody is doing something to follow the orders. 

I kind of see this as feasible, but Paige has been so unsuited to spying that I feel it's dangerous to keep training her. She's been lucky so far that her stupid mistakes haven't hurt her or anyone she's working with. 

6 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Note to Stan:  I don't know the capabilities of that database, but the fact that "Jennings, Philip" comes up as 6'2" black man is not automatically an indictment. 

I don't think Stan really expected anything to connect to our Philip Jennings. I feel like that (and Stan searching with Elizabeth's name) was to show us that he's thinking more and more than the Jennings aren't on the up-and-up, and running their names through the database is SOP. 

2 hours ago, TheBride said:

Could Paige end up going to South America to live with the minister's family? Why bring him back into the plot?

Father Tim was brought back because of Stan's growing feeling that the Jennings aren't who they say they are, and he knew the family—or at least Paige—was close to Tim. Stan is starting to put the pieces together, and talking to Father Tim was an important part of that, even if Tim didn't say anything. It also tells us that Tim is enjoying his work in Buenos Aires, is still looking over his shoulder somewhat, and is not going to jeopardize anyone's safety by spilling the beans.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

 

Note to Stan:  I don't know the capabilities of that database, but the fact that "Jennings, Philip" comes up as 6'2" black man is not automatically an indictment.  There might be one or two people by that name in the US.  Of course, this is way before Google and everyone looking up their own name.  Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have some namesakes.

That's what he got ftom it. Btw I remember the guy's age. It was 23. So too young to be Philip.  

I think there's no doubt Philip would have helped the people in the flashback. The show literally starts with him and Elizabeth arguing over that very thing with Rob. They take him to the hospital and miss the boat.

2 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think one of them is going to end up being a double agent for the USA. The prissy daughter may end up going to South America to live with the minister's family.

Could Paige end up going to South America to live with the minister's family? Why bring him back into the plot?

They brought him in to show Stan investigating the family. Paige is 19. She doesn’t need a family to live with. 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It's really salt in the wound for me, because, I never bought that E would be that much into a religious sort of person. 

She's not meeting him because she's into him. He's a contact she meets with for work. She can also talk about her life which she'll do with anyone she can really.

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

But the FBI didn't know that this particular stakeout was super important. It was one of several possible leads suggested by their surveillance of Harvest, and they had no way of knowing that it would be more fruitful than staking out the garages or tracking the used cars. If they assigned absolutely everyone to follow Father Andrei, he could've just as easily gone grocery shopping that day while an illegal showed up at one of the garages they left unsurveilled. Better to keep a few eyes on every possibility than every eye on one possibility and no eyes on anything else.

But I think that's because Claudia understood what Elizabeth wouldn't admit: that prepping Paige for the life wasn't just about running her through a highly sanitized version of surveillance school, but also about getting her to understand that she was entering a life of sacrifice and suffering -- indeed, trying to get her to see the nobility of a life of sacrifice and suffering. Claudia played Tchaikovsky for her not to show her that Russian music is pretty but to impress upon her that his greatness came from death and loneliness and inspired her when her own life was filled with death and loneliness. It was all theoretical, sure, but meanwhile Elizabeth was wildly failing to introduce her to the practical demands of the job; the Tchaikovsky scene is immediately juxtaposed with the "That book is totally wrong about honeytraps!" scene that leads directly into the confrontation between Paige and her mother in this episode.

Yes Elizabeth is lying to her about honeytraps and murder. Claudia is saying nothing about either. I don't see how vague romantic speeches about Tchaikovsky being lonely and making beautiful music is supposed to be grittier than Elizabeth yelling at Paige about how she could have gotten people killed after having blood and brains all over her face leaning over a corpse. 

Claudia never does or says a single thing that hints about the ugliness of their life to Paige.  If Claudia had given Paige the idea about honeytraps or recommended that book and then Elizabeth denied it it would be one thing but as it is it's Elizabeth lying and being in denial and Claudia giggling over sneaking guys into the workers dorm. One speech about an artist's lonliness really doesn't read as preparing Paige for sex work to me. Elizabeth's speech about Paige needing to be sure about her choice seems just as much about sacrifice being noble.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think there's no doubt Philip would have helped the people in the flashback. The show literally starts with him and Elizabeth arguing over that very thing with Rob. They take him to the hospital and miss the boat.

Excellent call back!

[renatae]

On 5/24/2018 at 7:52 AM, Kokapetl said:

Surely the Central Committee are going to find out about what Tatiana was up to, and isn’t it basically all over for the conspiracy then?

I'm not sure. Tatiana didn't get to take her shot, so how would they know who she came after? However, I don't know who the others were with Nesterenko. Were they all Russian?

[gunderda]

So my question is.... What would have happened to Tatiana if she was actually able to fulfill her mission?  Would she be able to get away just as quickly as Elizabeth did?  Or was she essentially surrendering herself?   Same question if Elizabeth would have actually done it when she was suppose to. Killing a guy when 2 others surround him is a little different than killing 1 and being able to get away before anyone notices. 

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, Plums said:

So it just occurred to me that Elizabeth must be so sleep deprived right now. She's running on at least 24 hours and looks utterly exhausted by the time Philip calls her with the bug out code. The shot of adrenaline that gave her will only go so far. Her having the presence of mind to sentimentally grab the wedding rings is even more impressive to me now, lol. I can't help but feel though that the fact of her being so extremely sleep deprived is going to lead to something terrible. She can't afford to crash or lose an iota of concentration anytime in the near future.

I agree - I've always been amazed at how well they function on very little sleep. Although what your body can handle when you're 20 is different from when you're 40. 

At least this time Philip is rested - it would be even worse if they were both very sleep deprived. 

If they are really driving to Canada then she can get a nap in the car. It's a long drive!

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

 What would have happened to Tatiana if she was actually able to fulfill her mission?  Would she be able to get away just as quickly as Elizabeth did?  Or was she essentially surrendering herself?   

blue pill time ......

11 minutes ago, gunderda said:

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[jjj]

I thought it was interesting that Tatiana had exactly the same poison delivery device as Elizabeth. Is there someone in the chain who decides in the mode of death, then issues the weapon?  I don't think we have seen this device previously.

I thought the reason the plan was not to shoot him was that the poison would not be as immediate as a bullet, so would give Elizabeth or Tatiana a few seconds to get away.  

Speaking of Elizabeth being up all night -- at some point, she changed into her disguise of career professional, so did she go to the regular garage?  Maybe their garage is not one of the 14 or so under surveillance?