S02.E05: Akane No Mai

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

ショーグン・ワールドへようこそ (Welcome to Shogun World)

 

[WatchrTina]

Okay the dopple-bots were great but DAMN that was gruesome.

So . . . when Maeve learned how to command non-verbally did anyone else think of Hogwarts and Harry having to learn non-verbal spells?  The Shogun was right.  Maeve IS a witch.

I am deeply worried about what Teddy is going to become.

Edited May 21, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Primetimer]

Our EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of Westworld's fifth episode of the season hits a new level of blood and gore, so make sure to keep your Delos-branded barf bag handy!

View the full article

[LoveLeigh]

Well, maybe many loved this episode but I found it unbearable and unwatchable. The show is all over the place and I just lost interest in the characters I loved last season. This show is a hot mess of carnage and slaughter and weak in plot. I hate it, I will watch but I just don't care about any of them. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[AimingforYoko]

That's good writing when you can make us care about Akane and Sakura, two characters we just met. And is Maeve becoming the Muad'dib?

[Mumbles]

I agree. After last week’s trippy, mind-bending episode we got an episode involving a bunch of characters we have never met before and we’re supposed to be making some emotional investment in them. Plus Dolores doing her best squinty-eyed, muttery Clint Eastwood imitation. So boring. 

[mac123x]

I knew I was going to hate the episode when I was glad to cut to the Dolores / Teddy plotline.  Nice butt shot of James Marsden, I will give them credit for that.

 

So they copied the "Paint It Black" scenario (including BGM) and repurposed it for Shogun World - to quote Deadpool, "That's just lazy writing".  Having Lee Sizemore point out the direct ripoff doesn't excuse it.  Plus Sizemore contradicted himself:  not 3 minutes earlier he said Shogun World was for people who found Westworld too tame.  Reusing the plotline but with bows and arrows and therefore less gore makes it more wild?  No.

 

I know the show writers were going for some sort of parallel / allegory / syllogism or whatever between Maeve and the Madam, but I so didn't care.  I've never met any of these characters before so I didn't give a shit if they lived or died.  I also found it really choppy and hard to follow.  It seems like the entire adventure took place in less than 2 days (one night in Japanese!Sweetwater, one evening in the warcamp).  But Sakura acted like she'd been traumatized by the Shogun for weeks, including having had enough time to do a massive back tattoo.

 

The only interesting bit was Maeve finding her new voice, which I assume is some form of that subconscious network that Bernard accessed for Charlotte.

 

Best episode of the season last week, worst one this week.  Considering how much of the plot rested on guest stars, it felt like an old-fashioned second-unit episode.

[Ellaria]

Maeve’s story line and “powers” intrigued me. The rest of this episode did not. I’m sure this will be a minority opinion but I had no interest in Shogun World and its inhabitants. Too many new characters and too much happening too quickly. 

And Dolores’ story line continues to confuse me. I’m haven’t jumped on the “Dolores is getting her just revenge” bandwagon. I think that we are supposed to question her choices. However, there is no nuance in her character...no hesitation, just death and destruction wrapped in silly, vague pronouncements. I’m hoping to see some purpose soon.

Poor Teddy. Now we know why and how he ended up in the lake.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[enchantingmonkey]

There was a brief when the episode felt like poetry in motion but I have no idea how I got there.  Perhaps Maeve used her super, special magical powers on me, too.  Unfortunately, it didn't last long.

It's hard to believe there was a time when I was intrigued by Maeve's desire to find her child, and now I can barely find a duck to give.  Quack!  

[LoveLeigh]

Shogun World, immortality, Bernard and his confusion.... this doesn't even seem like a continuation of season one. It seems like it was written by writers who never even watched season one. What a waste of a season. 

[Ottis]

29 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

That's good writing when you can make us care about Akane and Sakura, two characters we just met. And is Maeve becoming the Muad'dib?

I didn’t care about them. I was bored to tears. I felt like the show I had enjoyed had become something else, like a Japanese Dr. Quinn. Everything Shogun-related felt like a pointless diversion. BTW, that was the dumbest shogun ever. What did you think Akane would do after dancing her way toward you? And then we finished like Kill Bill. 

Meanwhile, Teddy is still trying to convince Delores to find their own bit of paradise and give up her quest. Also boring. 

The only part of this entire episode I found interesting was the bit with the military guy and the collection of the bodies, and Bernard. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ottis

[mac123x]

Just now, Ellaria Sand said:

And Dolores’ story line continues to confuse me

Me too, but I'm also having a hard time caring about it either.  She was telling that story about the blue tongue epidemic the whole time I was thinking "that didn't happen; it's just backstory someone created for Dolores".  Same thing with Teddy saying he's loved her his entire life.  He's only been effectively "alive" for a few days -- before that, his love for Dolores was a fucking narrative.

[WatchrTina]

I'm glad that Hector and his Japanese dopple-bot survived the fight (I really like Hector and I expect I'll like Tanaka too) but damn, that was cold when Maeve arbitrarily decided that the two of them plus Armistice and her dopple-bot should serve as a diversion for her escape with the other madam, her "daughter" and the three humans.  Hector et al could have all been killed.  So much for THAT off-book love-story (Maeve + Hector).

I have to say I enjoyed the story-writer constantly freaking out over the plot twists that were off-book. Now I wonder what mischief he's going to get into with that radio he nabbed.

The Japanese madam's prolonged beheading of the Shogun . . . damn.  I didn't actually see because I had to look away but . . . damn.

9 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Same thing with Teddy saying he's loved her his entire life.  He's only been effectively "alive" for a few day

In fairness to Teddy, he's been re-living those few days of loving Doloros over and over again in a loop for 30+ years.   Add to that the back-story that was imprinted in his brain (that of loving Doloros since childhood) and I think I can feel some sympathy for his genuine devotion to her.

Edited May 21, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Sader87]

Yeah, after last week, this was a bummah of an episode. Hopefully we get back on track next week.

[Jenesis]

I actually liked this episode. I mean, I still have a ton of questions but I did like the new additions of Akane, the Ronin and the other Dragon lady.

When I heard Lee talking about Shogun World being for people who found WestWorld too tame, I wondered why William spend 30 years dicking around in WW (killing poor Lawrence). Go to SW if you're so badass, MIB.

I don't know what Dolores will do. I have no idea what she wants, but she's coming across as a hypocrite. Hosts don't have the freedom to live how they feel they should live under her reign. Maeve actually has cheat coder skills and will still give hosts the choice to be free or not. I'm still invested in her story, Not just to get her daughter, but the people she encounters along the way.

Highlight, Akane pez-dispencing that General's head and Teddy's bubblebutt.

[mjc570]

I have to admit that I'm not liking this season as much as the first one, and this episode really pointed out why - lots of meaningless gore, characters I don't care about, a pretty sketchy world, obvious and implausible actions (ie, it was so predictable that Akane was going to dance her way to the Shogun and stab him, with none of his guards stopping her).

My favorite thing in the episode was the writer talking to Maeve about rescuing a "literal sex machine - present company excepted, of course."

Edited May 21, 2018 by mjc570
minor thing

[formerlyfreedom]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm glad that Hector and his Japanese dopple-bot survived the fight (I really like Hector and I expect I'll like Tanaka too) but damn, that was cold when Maeve arbitrarily decided that the two of them plus Armistice and her dopple-bot should serve as a diversion for her escape with the other madam, her "daughter" and the three humans.  Hector et al could have all been killed.  So much for THAT off-book love-story (Maeve + Hector).

100% agree with this. I really liked the additions of Shogun-Maeve and Shogun-Hector to the show.

Dolores and Teddy bored me. Until the end - when Dolores turned on Teddy, the bad girl part of me was like, FINALLY! Something to work with! /hides head in shame.

[TobinAlbers]

If Maeve plays her cards right she'll have the army Dolores wishes she had. 

Really wished we could've seen ShogunWorld Teddy and Dolores.

Loved Sizemore defending his using elements of the same story in all the worlds. When Maeve got pissy about his reusing he really should've snarked 'Well if I knew the hosts would rebel and become sentient and start comparing backstories across the parks I, yeah, I probably would've covered my ass better and not played them so close. My bad.'

Poor Teddy. And damn Dolores, way to decide for someone else how they should be and whether they're strong enough to be your tool. I hope Teddy somehow recovers/finds himself and his freedom and gets to be a wild card in this revolution.

[WatchrTina]

Two more random thoughts.

When the Japanese madam was dancing was that an Edo-style arrangement of the Rolling Stones' "Paint It Black" I heard?

What was that rotting on the table in the scene where they grabbed Teddy?  Were those supposed to be rotting cattle with blue tongue? Or rotting guests?  Either way, ew.

[radishcake]

Thank god for a straightforward timeline this episode for Eve’s sake! I was so happy you wouldn’t have to figure out when the hell we were.

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

So they copied the "Paint It Black" scenario (including BGM) and repurposed it for Shogun World - to quote Deadpool, "That's just lazy writing".  Having Lee Sizemore point out the direct ripoff doesn't excuse it. 

I have to disagree with you.  I think it was genius.  They showed us enough of the Westworld version in the "previously-on" section to jog our memories and I really enjoyed seeing the same scenario played out by all the Japanese doppelgangers.  The first time I watched I found myself scoffing at at the madam, thinking "That's not the way a Geisha behaves" (like I would know -- like what I've seen depicted in US movies and TV is authoritative.)  But the second time I watched I realized that the actress playing the Japanese Madam was actually mimicing Thandie Newton's portrayal of the Westworld Madam -- and doing a damn fine job of it, right down to the body language.  Genius.

[LittleIggy]

I have zero empathy for Delores this season. Her storyline is so one note and boring. Poor Teddy.

”I’m from Hong Kong, you asshole!” ?

Since I like Samurai movies, I liked this episode. Maeve’s new powers are cool. I thought Sakura’s back had been carved not tattooed, but there would have been a lot of blood in that case, so I guess it wasn’t.

Edited May 21, 2018 by LittleIggy

[DarkRaichu]

21 minutes ago, radishcake said:

Thank god for a straightforward timeline this episode for Eve’s sake! I was so happy you wouldn’t have to figure out when the hell we were.

Was that why I did not enjoy it too much?? It was too straightforward?? ;) ;) ;)

I was looking forward for Maeve in ShogunWorld.  The details seem authentic and little things seem to work for a japanese version of Westworld.  Seriously, a Shogun that cut off his subordinates' ears just to counter a witch, that would never happen in Westworld or Rajworld.  However, the whole episode felt like it could have been 15 minutes shorter.  I get that both Maeve and Dolores realized and discovered something new, but I didn't really care about either one in this episode.  I am just amazed Felix and Sylvester survived the samurai civil war in Shogun camp.

Also, btw, how the heck can Control keep the guests safe in ShogunWorld?  There is this small thing called physics, which allows objects with sharp enough edge to cause harm (papercuts anyone??).  And the freakin knives and swords are sharp enough to decapitate a host. 

[Pallas]

Lee is more and more Spike to Maeve's Buffy. From the era when Spike was reluctantly hanging around Sunnydale, providing the Slayer and her gang with snark and the occasional bit of intel against his own kind, for the sake of survival. And it's not just the accent. 

[Jenesis]

Where were all the guests in ShogunWorld? They could have shown at least one. I know we saw a dead security guard which Sizemore was able to get a communicator off of.

[tpplay]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

Well, maybe many loved this episode but I found it unbearable and unwatchable. The show is all over the place and I just lost interest in the characters I loved last season. This show is a hot mess of carnage and slaughter and weak in plot. I hate it, I will watch but I just don't care about any of them. 

I couldn't agree more.  Except I think I'm done watching.  Just awful gory dreck.

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Lee is more and more Spike to Maeve's Buffy. From the era when Spike was reluctantly hanging around Sunnydale, providing the Slayer and her gang with snark and the occasional bit of intel against his own kind, for the sake of survival. And it's not just the accent. 

Wait, are you saying Maeve and Seizemore will eventually become lovers...??? :P :P :D :D :D 

[numbnut]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

So they copied the "Paint It Black" scenario (including BGM) and repurposed it for Shogun World - to quote Deadpool, "That's just lazy writing".  Having Lee Sizemore point out the direct ripoff doesn't excuse it. 

I think this is why I don't like this season like I did S1. Instead of creating fresh scenarios, they're in full-on fan-service mode and reusing fave moments from S1 (Bernard instead of Delores struggles to recall his role in a slaughter; Abernathy shows his evil side then glitches out; Lawrence's wife is threatened with a dance, etc.). Everything's a shout-out or an Easter egg.

Edited May 21, 2018 by numbnut

[dgpolo]

4 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I thought Sakura’s back had been carved not tattooed, but there would have been a lot of blood in that case, so I guess it wasn’t.

So did I!

Sakura means 'flowering Cherry Tree' so that particular pattern was deliberate.

Also, was there some hidden meaning to the butterfly shape in the sand garden, beyond being another reference to the Mariposa, I thought it looked a bit like the labyrinth?

[tpplay]

Just hated the episode.  Furious that a show I really loved was destroyed.

Dolores.  Uggh.

Everything.  Uggh.

[WatchrTina]

50 minutes ago, radishcake said:

Thank god for a straightforward timeline this episode for Eve’s sake! I was so happy you wouldn’t have to figure out when the hell we were.

But there WAS one time jump - right?  We start the episode with the clean-up crew bringing in the bodies that we saw floating in episode 1 in the time frame that was several days down-stream.  Then we get the black-screen of time-travel and boom, we're back with Maeve & Co on their adventure just after the initial host uprising.  Dolores & Teddy are in the same time-frame.  But don't we already know that Teddy ends up floating in the future time-frame (the one that opened the episode)?  Didn't we see him floating at the very end of the first episode of the season?

[Quilt Fairy]

Wow, tough crowd here tonight.

I'm with what appears to be the minority, I loved it.  I thought it was genius, but then I've been waiting to see ShogunWorld since December 2016.  It didn't advance our knowledge of what the hell is going on wrt Westworld, but I didn't care.  In fact, I could have done without the cuts to Delores and Teddy.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I was surprised by how different the topography was between WestWorld and Shogun World -- all within walking distance of each other.
They even replicated Mt. Fuji, which must have cost a lot since it's over 2 miles high at the peak (some 12000+ ft.).

One item that I caught was that somehow they are going to be able to easily dam up and drain that massive new inland sea in Westworld.
That is not a small accomplishment.

[Dev F]

Totally baffled by the hate for this episode. To me it was one of the most interesting shows of the season, in large part because it starts to explore a major implication of digital intelligence -- namely, that there is absolutely no reason why programmed lifeforms would have to be unique and induplicable. Lots of stories cheat their way out of addressing that issue, contriving dumb excuses for not being able to produce multiple copies of the same AI at will. (Heck, Battlestar Galactica created the world's most convoluted backstory to explain why five of their Cylon models were unique after spending three and a half seasons flashing "THERE ARE MANY COPIES" up on the screen at the beginning of every dang episode.)

And not only did this episode deal honestly with this inevitable element of the show's premise, it did so in a fun and surprising way, presenting not literal duplicates but the sort of lazy copy-paste doppelgangers that overworked coders would quite believably resort to. 

[UNOSEZ]

Did Maeve just find God Mode?? 

[DarkRaichu]

9 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Did Maeve just find God Mode?? 

But God Mode is only good within the game environment.. 

Although I do not think she wants to get out by the way she reacted to how Akane rejected her voices.  Come to think of it, this may be the main difference between Maeve and Dolores.  One wants to stay in Westworld and Dolores wants out.  Unfortunately for Teddy, he wants to stay.

17 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And not only did this episode deal honestly with this inevitable element of the show's premise, it did so in a fun and surprising way, presenting not literal duplicates but the sort of lazy copy-paste doppelgangers that overworked coders would quite believably resort to. 

What you called lazy others call working smart :P :P :P  Btw, the boss does not care as long as the sh-t work :D :D :D

[Teitr Styrr]

Count me among those who liked it a lot. I'm just along for the ride, and I don't have any preconceived notions where the story should go or how it should get there. I'm liking it so far.

Delores is scaring me. She's kind of a hypocrite, or is she? Is she trying to free everyone or just get revenge? Little of both? I dunno, but I am still invested. I am looking forward to a scary James Marsden. Everything I have ever seen him in he was a white knight of some sort. This could be fun.

Maeve, oh how I love you! She just keep leveling up. When she did the silent command thing I was reminded of how Ford could do that. He didn't always use words as commands either. 

Shogun world was great. I got invested pretty quick I guess because the story was familiar. Seeing the dopplegangers was fun, especially Armistices'. Watching the writer freak was fun too. 

Anyway, I'm still liking this.

[Thinbalina]

I'm indifferent to the episode because I've already grown annoyed by Delores..I swear if I have to hear another speech from D..

What I do like about Mauve's storyline is she has the writer with her. It's nice to hear how he interprets the stories or what was supposed to happen.

In the beginning, the programmer stated many of the host stories were erased? Did I hear that correctly? Could that have been Delores doing it when she initially did it to Teddy? Again, Delores deciding who's supposed to make it doesn't sit right. She's become what she hated.

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

But Sakura acted like she'd been traumatized by the Shogun for weeks, including having had enough time to do a massive back tattoo.

 

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

I thought Sakura’s back had been carved not tattooed, but there would have been a lot of blood in that case, so I guess it wasn’t.

I don’t think Sakura was tattooed OR carved; I’m thinking branded.

 

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

In fact, I could have done without the cuts to Delores and Teddy.

Same here; relatively speaking, I found the SamuraiWorld segments much more interesting than the WestWorld bits - to the point Dolores and Teddy were frequent and unwelcome interruptions.

[Accidental Martyr]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

 

Also, btw, how the heck can Control keep the guests safe in ShogunWorld?  There is this small thing called physics, which allows objects with sharp enough edge to cause harm (papercuts anyone??).  And the freakin knives and swords are sharp enough to decapitate a host. 

I was wondering the same thing. How the hell do they keep guests from getting hacked up with swords and shot with arrows?

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Totally baffled by the hate for this episode. To me it was one of the most interesting shows of the season, in large part because it starts to explore a major implication of digital intelligence -- namely, that there is absolutely no reason why programmed lifeforms would have to be unique and induplicable. Lots of stories cheat their way out of addressing that issue, contriving dumb excuses for not being able to produce multiple copies of the same AI at will. (Heck, Battlestar Galactica created the world's most convoluted backstory to explain why five of their Cylon models were unique after spending three and a half seasons flashing "THERE ARE MANY COPIES" up on the screen at the beginning of every dang episode.)

And not only did this episode deal honestly with this inevitable element of the show's premise, it did so in a fun and surprising way, presenting not literal duplicates but the sort of lazy copy-paste doppelgangers that overworked coders would quite believably resort to. 

I agree it is an invitable outcome, but when the humans are less life like than the AI, it makes for deadly boredom. If the outside world were to nuke it all from space, hosts, humans, all of it, just to be sure, I wouldn't care. Then again, if the humans in the outside world are as dull as the humans in the park(s), hey, I hope a half dozen AI templates escape and wipe all of humanity out.

I could maybe tolerate the absence of intelligent life forms which are interesting, if the battle/fight/violent scenes were competently shot. In my opinion, however, they are extremely pedestrian. I fell asleep twice during this episode. 

[BrooklynRat]

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

The only part of this entire episode I found interesting was the bit with the military guy and the collection of the bodies, and Bernard.

Agree! 

Dolores is maniacal while also boring at the same time.

Love Maeve and her band of characters but the detour through Shogun was totally boring. And ugh—looks like there’s still more of it next episode!

Seems like almost a different show from Season 1. At this point, I’m basically watching for anything Bernard-centric, flashbacks that flesh out the change in William/MIB, banter between Maeve & Co, and a faint interest in the new maze Ford laid for MIB. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Behind the scenes: shogun world

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ahh, once again asking the age old question: cowboys or ninjas?

I enjoyed shogun world. It was nice to get the fuck out of Westworld and see something different, even if the stories started out the same (thanks to Sizemore's laziness/tight time schedule). It doesn't hurt that the sets, costumes, and makeup were all beautiful.

ITA that Sizemore is the Spike of the show right now. I'd put him around the end of S2 BtVS where he's going along and helping because it's to his benefit for the moment (although visually I also see him as tied up in the bathtub Spike of S4 but slightly less angry - for now). Maybe Thanksgiving Spike is a more accurate comparison - sulky, tied to a chair, having arrows shot at him, and giving snarky but useful comments.

Awwww, farewell, sweet Teddy. I'm almost afraid to see how batshit scary turned up Teddy will be. I still remember James Marsden from the stuff he did in the mid to late 90s (he was the original Griffin on Party of Five and for some reason, my sister and I STILL remember watching him in Bella Mafia which was a shitty made for tv movie that had characters with amazing names like Teresa Scorpio and Nicky Diamond) so it makes me almost proud to see him still acting but in such different roles.

High five to Felix for telling Sylvester to fuck off for assuming he knew Japanese. "I'm from Hong Kong, ASSHOLE."

[mrspidey]

Dear HBO,

can I please have a Samurai show with that production value next? It's the one thing you haven't done yet. The Sengoku Jidai is just ripe for some gory drama. 

 

I loved this one. Dolores is becoming the villain of this story. Well, one of them, anyway. With the hint of a redemption story for William last week, maybe the next time these two meet, the roles will be reversed? Also loved the score a lot here. Ramjin Djawadi gets a LOT of different musical styles to experiment with on this show. 

What song was the one that played when Akane started dancing? Sounded familar but i couldn't put my finger on it.

Edited May 21, 2018 by mrspidey

[Gobi]

I'm wondering: Is this all Ford's doing, or is it the Singularity? And are we seeing two timelines, or is there more than one Bernard (or both)?

[dr pepper]

This week on Twin Sisters from Different Vats, Maeve makes like a badly configured XP and makes herself the chief node in the robot peer to peer network. More Delos security are dead. They brought machine guns to a sword fight and lost. We learn that from park to park, some of the main characters are reused with different names and culturally appropriate modifications. From that i conclude that the redshirts are probably even less different.

Meanwhile Dolores decides that she has to sacrifice Teddy to achieve her goals. And by sacrifice i mean change his character profile from a genuine good guy to someone more ruthless. I think she suspects she won't love the new version. And she's going to take the train to the mesa. Maybe she'll use it as a weapon.

[JCaslon]

This has been my favorite episode since the show started. I love everything about Shogunworld and the doppel-bots. Kind of over Wyatt/Dolores. Her quest seems awfully one-note and short-sighted compared to Maeve's awakening, and I hope Akane and samurai-Hector stick around for most of the season. If all they do is go through various parks on this quest and explore the larger world, that would be better than staying in Westworld proper. 

[Haleth]

Holy moley, that was epic.  I truly laughed out loud when I realized Shogun World was recycling Maeve, Hector, and Armistice's storyline, just before they did.  And it was too funny how Armistice was so fascinated with her counterpart.  Maeve immediately bonded with hers, but Hector felt threatened by his.  BTW, Hiroyuki Sanada (yes, I had to look up his name) is a fine looking man and is compelling in whatever role he plays (which is usually the same sort of character).  I hope to see all three of them (Hector, Armistice, and Musashi) again soon.

Poor Sakura.  Poor Akane.  Sic 'em, Maeve, with your new Jedi skills.

Dolores and Teddy are still boring.  I'm more interested in Shogun World at this point.  Except for William's adventure it's all too repetitive with Dolores killing anything that moves and Bernard looking confused.  The only thing that moved me in WW last night was Clemmie facing her replacement and looking so hurt.

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

But there WAS one time jump - right?

Yes.  Bernard is more recent.  Dolores and Maeve happened a few days earlier.

 

6 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

They even replicated Mt. Fuji,

Did you notice Mt Fuji in the opening credits?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved the shot of Armistice and her shogun counterpart staring at each other!