S02.E04: The Riddle Of The Sphinx

[The Companion]

54 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I did watch the scene again last night, and it's subtle, but there does appear to be blood on whose-ever hand that is. They caught that in the recap as well. I think my theory is unlikely, but I do find it interesting that in the previouslies the MiB mentions pills, but the person in the bathtub appears to have slit her wrists.

ETA: Well, I just re-read the recap, and they DO NOT mention blood in that scene. I thought I saw it, but I could be wrong.

 

36 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I could have sworn there were blood drops mixed in with the water drops.

I guess that means none of us are hosts, with their perfect memories. There was blood in the liquid in the secret lab, but it is possible there was also blood in the bathtub. I think we can probably assume that the MIB is not necessarily a reliable narrator either way when it comes to his wife. I am sure we will get more details now that he is interacting with his daughter.

[Gobi]

No reason why MIB's wife couldn't have both slit her wrists and overdosed.  She could have taken pills to make it easier to slit her wrists, for example.

[MJ Frog]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

No reason why MIB's wife couldn't have both slit her wrists and overdosed.  She could have taken pills to make it easier to slit her wrists, for example.

True, but if you were going to skip a part in the telling, it would be that she took some pills, not that she cut her wrists. And if she did cut her wrists, the MiB wouldn't need his daughter to tell him it was suicide.

And ANOTHER THING... I don't know why I keep defending this idea, because I don't like it and I don't think it's particularly good storytelling. However, either he was lying to Teddy, or the flashback was not the MiB's wife, because these are two entirely different scenarios. After having watched it yet again, whoever that was definitely cut her wrists. The tub water was filled with a deep red shadow, and there was definitely blood on her hand. Additionally, we see a man running up the stairs, implying that the MiB discovered her body. Whatever happened, there wouldn't be any talk of pills, and no need for anyone to tell him it was suicide. 

It's possible that Grace/Emily attempted suicide and survived, but the theme here was death, and that the MiB was death itself. It may also be worth noting that he looked at Lawrence's daughter immediately before we saw the blood filled tub.

This theory is not ironclad, and I am not fond of it, but it is far from unreasonable.

Edited May 16, 2018 by MJ Frog
More ideas and stuff.

[Netfoot]

The best I can say about the episode is that we din't see Toyota Camry and her wooden, expressionless face.

[LoveLeigh]

On 5/15/2018 at 8:49 PM, enchantingmonkey said:

I vaguely recall an interview at the end of Season 1 in which Jonathan Nolan said something to the effect of Season 2 looking like a different kind of show, because the way they were able to tell their story in S1 wasn't something he thought they could do again in the next season.  Perhaps that's what you're experiencing.  

 

Yes, correct. However, I think they could have expanded on it for the second season by introducing new hosts with their backstories in the different theme parks. Maeve could find her daughter and go with that story. Clementine could have a story. Bernard's family life could have a past story. Teddy and Dolores could have an interesting story and guests could be worked into it, not just Dolores turning into Wyatt and going on a killing spree. 

This DNA thing and all the riddles is too much like LOST for me. The series seems to have gone off track and lost it's way.  

Edited May 19, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

Hey you guys I just had a theory!!!

 

What if Dolores is really awake and did everything on purpose? Ford could have told her about the next level of the game he's planning for William before he died, in one of her sleep modes or when they talked before she shot him. The army that she was looking for is not the Confederados but actually Lorence's village... Lead by the best gunslinger in Westworld the MIB!

Telling Teddy to kill the General could have been a test, and if he had failed she could have still resurrect him via the tech guy.

[dr pepper]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I could have sworn there were blood drops mixed in with the water drops.

Me too.

[msrachelj]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:41 PM, SourK said:

Oh, man. I'm so confused this season. I came here to read the recap just to understand what's going on (and FWIW, I agree with the recap that it makes no sense to burn the whole room that the Delos host is in -- even if you want to destroy the evidence that he existed, why not keep the other stuff?)

I feel like somebody on this show now has to be one of the hybrid host-humans, with the three most obvious candidates being Ford, William, and Bernard. Trying to sort out the timeline in my mind to figure out if any of those possibilities has been ruled out already made me stressed. I could see it being Bernard because he's displaying some of the same symptoms as the Delos host did, and because I'm getting the idea that this season is about his journey like last season was about Delores. I could see it being Ford because the timing seems to line up best if it is. I could see it being William because he was the one overseeing the project and, after he decided some men are better off dead, maybe he killed himself and accepted 30 days to be a real part of Westworld as a host and play the maze. I could also see all of those being totally wrong.

What it made me think of was how Ford said last season that he tried to keep Bernard and Delores apart because seeing each other again would trigger them or something. Maybe seeing somebody he actually knew is what triggered Delos.

i can barely follow this. i'm not totally into this genre of show so i need it dumbed down a bit. i am lost, all the flashbacks or different time lines, all the old and new characters, etc etc. i liked last season better. i hate the wandering around the mountains outside, finding the labs, etc etc. i hope i can keep up. my little brain is getting overtaxed...

On 5/15/2018 at 1:03 PM, Kokapetl said:

This show is going to have to produce something miraculous to undo the damage this 2nd season is doing. So Delos plc two main businesses are making incredibly lifelike androids, and also magically curing all disease? That sounds suspicious. Why is the vastly more lucrative “live forever in a new body” second fiddle to Super Disney World? Why is everyone an asshole? Why are these people so fucking vague and cryptic about everything? Ed Harris has basically spent two seasons just quoting ambiguous phrases.

agree. except for ed harris.  except for the past raping, i love the character right now. and did anyone have a good explanation for the reason why younger m.i.b. loved delores and older m.i.b. well, does not?

On 5/14/2018 at 4:26 PM, Gobi said:

Would not surprise me if Prohibition World was one of the parks we haven't seen yet.

i'd love to visit 1930's new york and be super rich. all the beautiful cars, clothes, furniture , just things, and surroundings. art deco. no need for bloodshed. just a fantasy world. 

although having now seen how the machines are taking over. no thank you.

thoughts on james delos speech at the end about god and the devil? it gave me chills.

[LoveLeigh]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:05 PM, Netfoot said:

The best I can say about the episode is that we din't see Toyota Camry and her wooden, expressionless face.

Who is Toyota Camry? 

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

Who is Toyota Camry? 

That mechanical contrivance with neither feelings, rights or emotions, otherwise known as Dolores.

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, msrachelj said:

did anyone have a good explanation for the reason why younger m.i.b. loved delores and older m.i.b. well, does not?

William (MIB The Younger) fell in love with Delores.  When Delores did not - could not - reciprocate his affection, William reacted as if she had spurned him; his former attraction curdled into jealous spite, and William began his descent/transformation into MiB.

[paigow]

On 5/16/2018 at 4:15 PM, Gobi said:

No reason why MIB's wife couldn't have both slit her wrists and overdosed.  She could have taken pills to make it easier to slit her wrists, for example.

Or MIB administered the overdose and staged the suicide....

[MJ Frog]

13 hours ago, Nashville said:

William (MIB The Younger) fell in love with Delores.  When Delores did not - could not - reciprocate his affection, William reacted as if she had spurned him; his former attraction curdled into jealous spite, and William began his descent/transformation into MiB.

This is the thing that makes him irredeemable in my eyes. Heartbreak and despair I would have understood, but I have no sympathy for this juvenile, violent, spurned lover bullshit. Any reasonable person, anyone who knew anything about the park -- as he must have -- would realize the limitations Delores was working under, the role the park forced her to play. Such a small man. And in such disappointing contrast to the man who still chose Delores even after he was forced to confront the fact that there were shiny metal bits under that pleasing exterior. That incredible leap of empathy, kindness, and tenderness was, and is, one of the very best moments of the show for me, and I have never been able to square that man with the MiB, who has never seemed more than a plot convenience to me. #stillbitter

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

This is the thing that makes him irredeemable in my eyes. Heartbreak and despair I would have understood, but I have no sympathy for this juvenile, violent, spurned lover bullshit. Any reasonable person, anyone who knew anything about the park -- as he must have -- would realize the limitations Delores was working under, the role the park forced her to play. Such a small man. And in such disappointing contrast to the man who still chose Delores even after he was forced to confront the fact that there were shiny metal bits under that pleasing exterior. That incredible leap of empathy, kindness, and tenderness was, and is, one of the very best moments of the show for me, and I have never been able to square that man with the MiB, who has never seemed more than a plot convenience to me. #stillbitter

I’m not particularly fond of MiB either, but this point in time I’m not quite ready to sit in judgment on him because I/we have no idea of the route(s) he’s been required to travel on his transformation.  

Personally, I’ve had the impression William’s initial sojourn into Westworld revealed to him a dark side of his own nature - the existence of which he’d never even suspected, much less explored, and his subsequent forays into the park were more a voyage of self-exploration than anything else - an attempt to unravel this newfound portion of his psyche in a (normally) relatively consequence-free environment where he thought nobody else would get hurt.

Incidentally, I also suspect over the years this “voyage of self-exploration” became increasingly obsessive to the point all William’s true interpersonal relationships (specifically, his wife and daughter) suffered from neglect, to the point his wife committed suicide and his daughter ostracizes him.  So in that sense, Williams’s journey is complete - in becoming the MiB, William has personified the darkness he found inside himself.

[thuganomics85]

Elsie has finally returned!  Can't say I'm too surprised that she would be just a bit cautious and miffed with Bernard over the whole choking and chaining her up thing.  And if she only knew what he apparently did to all of those scientists earlier!  Not sure what is going on with him (is Ford still controlling him, somehow?), but I'll never complain about seeing more Bernard, since Jeffrey Wright is the greatest.

Also see a bit of Stubbs and what happened to him.  Hope we get more of Zahn McClarnon later on.  Also recognized Tantoo Cardinal as one of the other Native Americans. Nice to see the former Longmire cast are getting some work!

Jonathan Tucker characters tend to always have a violent exit, but being forced to drink his own nitrogen and then get blown up is certainly one for the books!

Figured Delos was going to end up being a host along, as the company is attempting some kind of "transfer his brain to another body" type thing that has been pretty popular lately (Altered Carbon, Kryton.)  His scenes with both of the Williams were great.

Ed Harris gave a standout performance in this one.

Not surprised that Grace/woman from last week is William's daughter.

[kassandra8286]

Trivial question - why was MiB's daughter Emily named Grace in the credits? Was that just to mask her identity to the viewing audience so we could all be surprised by the final scene in Episode 4, or has she been called Grace on the show as well? Seems odd.

[mac123x]

4 hours ago, kassandra8286 said:

Trivial question - why was MiB's daughter Emily named Grace in the credits? Was that just to mask her identity to the viewing audience so we could all be surprised by the final scene in Episode 4, or has she been called Grace on the show as well? Seems odd.

Mask her identity from the audience most likely.  There might be an explanation in her conversation with MiB.  "Emily, what are you doing here?"  "I'm here for blah blah, and don't call me Emily.  I haven't gone by that since 3rd grade.  I use my middle name, Grace" though probably written better because they're much better at dialog than I am.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Behind the scenes: the Delos experiment

[AudienceofOne]

I'm someone who is loving this season and still loving this show. Having said that, I was really worried about watching anything by these showrunners because I find they often get too caught up in how clever they are and never stop to resolve any of the mysteries. I felt they dealt with with that well in Season 1 but it could be a problem for them further on.

[LeGrandElephant]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:31 PM, TobinAlbers said:

But he missed years with his wife

Not so sure about that. I assumed they took a "snapshot" of Delos at some point in time and that's what the robot was based on, but that doesn't mean that his original body and mind didn't keep living with his wife during what years it had left. 

Regarding the line that Logan overdosed years ago: I really never understood what happened with Logan in season 1, and I guess they aren't going to explain it further. Is the idea that Logan was so traumatized by what happened on his adventure in Westworld with William that he became a drug addict? As I recall, last we saw William had tied him naked to a horse and sent the horse running off, but how does that translate into Logan losing his place in the Delos company in the real world and becoming a drug addict? (We haven't seen any drugs in Westworld). 

[Athena]

6 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Regarding the line that Logan overdosed years ago: I really never understood what happened with Logan in season 1, and I guess they aren't going to explain it further. Is the idea that Logan was so traumatized by what happened on his adventure in Westworld with William that he became a drug addict? As I recall, last we saw William had tied him naked to a horse and sent the horse running off, but how does that translate into Logan losing his place in the Delos company in the real world and becoming a drug addict? (We haven't seen any drugs in Westworld). 

Logan was already showing as using drugs in episode S02x02 of this season right before he is pitched about WW. Drugs still exist in this reality/future but not necessarily in Westworld proper.   

[LeGrandElephant]

16 hours ago, Athena said:

Logan was already showing as using drugs in episode S02x02 of this season right before he is pitched about WW. Drugs still exist in this reality/future but not necessarily in Westworld proper.   

Yes, I'm just saying I don't understand how the events of Season 1 translated into Logan being a drug addict instead of into Logan getting back and William once they got back to the real world, or any other possible outcome.