S02.E04: The Riddle Of The Sphinx

[DrSpaceman]

Very well done episode

Love the MiB-william/Delos interactions over the years.  Curious as to what prompted the change in the last scene with them, but of course that is the crux of the character.  How did he change from William to the MiB and why?

I do have to wonder, he started malfunctioning it seems each time he came to visit, not before then. 

Still not sure why Bernard was destroying that place. 

I also won't believe Logan is dead until I see it. 

Quote

I think my opinion will be very unpopular. I am not liking this season at all. It is all too convoluted, hard to follow with all the different timelines, and the writers have gone down so many rabbit holes the series is beginning to resemble LOST. 

Not sure if it was you or someone else I responded to last week about a similar comment, but that is the risk the show is running I think.  Too many things going on and becomes confusing and convoluted, like lost.  I don't think its there yet, but it does run that risk. 

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He never specifically said Logan was dead, only that he had overdosed a long time ago.  I think they are leaving it open.  Hey, what if there is a Loganbot somewhere?  Maybe that's who the other one is that Bernard alluded to?  (I still think it's Ford.)

I think that is certainly a possibility, Logan as a bot. 

That also brings up the question, maybe it has been answered and I missed it :  Is Bernard then a robot clone of Arnold or was Arnold's consciousness transferred into Bernard, like Delos was trying to do?  It seems he has to be a robot clone as the technology is not yet perfected for the bot transfer, but you never know with the timelines on here

Am I the only one that was thinking Delos looks on awful lot like Delores father?

The daughter showing up at the end, I shouldn't have been surprised.  with all the mentions of the other family members in the last Delos/MiB conversation, all were mentioned except where the daughter was, so I figured she would be showing up sometime in the show.  Just wasn't sure it would be that soon

[Ellaria]

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I speculate that that line (CyborgDelos calling out for Logan) was tossed in for the sole purpose of reminding us, the viewers, that Logan exists.  Present tense.  Sure it could be just a sad moment -- the cyborg calling out to a now-dead "son" that he treated badly while he was human.  But I'm betting that it was really done for OUR benefit  -- to remind the viewer who Logan is and to hint that Logan is alive.  If so, he'll be much older so . . . I wonder who will play him?

This may be wishful thinking on my part...

Despite what William/MIB said, we may not be done with Logan. The trailer has two scenes of him that we have not seen in an episode: 1) Akecheta finding him lying naked against a tree and 2) a scene by the pool with his father. It seems that we will, at the very least, be given more of Logan's backstory.

William's comment to Delos about Logan's overdose was a way of tormenting him before his death ("none of your loved ones are alive; you have nothing to live for"). Logan could have survived an overdose and William either chose not to tell Delos or perhaps William actually believes that Logan is dead.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[DrSpaceman]

Also just in general, between Black Mirror and Altered Carbon already doing similar ideas, in many forms, this idea of immortality and mind transference is a bit behind for Westworld.  But we will see how it compares to the others

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

Also just in general, between Black Mirror and Altered Carbon already doing similar ideas, in many forms, this idea of immortality and mind transference is a bit behind for Westworld.  But we will see how it compares to the others

At least in Black Mirror (I have not watched Altered Carbon), they assumed the tech to move minds (or to translate minds to code) was already there.  In contrast, Westworld explore how hard it is to combine human mind / data and robotic body.  It took William at least 20 years to put Delos Sr' mind to the new body and the hybrid still broke down whenever Sr tried to analyze how fit his robot body was.  
I am hoping the show would go to how Ford develop a different (but similar) tech to accomplish immortality.  This would make Westworld show different since it explores on how to achieve immortality as supposed to what to do with immortality (a la Black Mirror).  

[djsunyc]

serious desmond in the hatch vibes from lost with papa delos in the beginning.

ok, may seem a bit simplistic but does anyone think william was intentionally messing up delos to keep him there - and the trigger to get him to act all messed up was the liquor he brought in?

didn't delos start stammering only after he drank the liquor?

Edited May 14, 2018 by djsunyc

[tpplay]

Quote

I think my opinion will be very unpopular. I am not liking this season at all. It is all too convoluted, hard to follow with all the different timelines, and the writers have gone down so many rabbit holes the series is beginning to resemble LOST. 

There is way too much carnage and slaughter, guns are too accessible by so many, and it is all too far fetched even for this series which has a very implausible theme. 

Season one was beautifully scripted, almost an allegory, but this is just a mess with too much packed into so few episodes so far I hope it does not end up like LOST, with more riddles than answers. 

Right there with you.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, TobinAlbers said:

And now after some thought, reading up on other theories and remembering William's/MiB epiphany with Maeve last season with seeing how trauma seemed to push her beyond her programming, I'm wondering when this meeting with Delos149 happened - before or after William realized trauma was a key to the process. Or maybe he didn't realize that all the stuff he dumped on Delos149 and leaving him to suffer was actually was going in the right direction. Had Ford not launched the host rebellion, William might've been surprised to see some improvement.

MiB pushing Maeve to the edge happened several years prior to robot rebellion since she was still in the house in prairie narrative.  Afterwards she was repurposed to be the madam at Sweetwater.  Delos 149 happened after MiB's wife/Julliet killed herself (as he mentioned to Delos149) and in season 1  MiB said his wife killed herself just the previous year. 

So to me, the timeline is more or less: Julliet killed herself, MiB visited Delos149 and let him live, MiB went around WW in season 1 looking for next challenge, Ford told Bernard to clean up the facility where Delos149 was, Ford was killed / rebot rebellion, MiB started Ford's new game, Bernard was dragged by Clementine back to that facility, etc

There is a good chance William's visit to Delos 149 happened at the same week as his WW visit in season 1, meaning it happened just a week before robot rebellion.

[Haleth]

56 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

serious desmond in the hatch vibes from lost with papa delos in the beginning.

I was just coming here to ask if anyone else had flashbacks to Desmond in the Season 3 opener.  As long as there are no smoke monsters I'm ok with any other similarities. 

And the serial Jims reminds me of broken Cylons being downloaded into new bodies. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Haleth

[dgpolo]

1 minute ago, Haleth said:

I was just coming here to ask if anyone else had flashbacks to Desmond in the Season 3 opener.  As long as there are no smoke monsters I'm ok with any other similarities. 

I stopped watching Lost after a couple of seasons, so I was surprised when I googled something to do with our MiB to find entries for a MiB on Lost.

Spoiler

The smoke monster was actually the MiB there, and there was a Juliet too.

The line I quoted before way up thread was actually the line Angela? used on William's first visit to WW.

"If you can't tell, does it matter"

Also, I wanted to confirm that all the shot glasses Craddock was trying to force on Lawrence, and that MiB made Craddock drink, were nitroglycerin, right?

[DrSpaceman]

38 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

serious desmond in the hatch vibes from lost with papa delos in the beginning.

ok, may seem a bit simplistic but does anyone think william was intentionally messing up delos to keep him there - and the trigger to get him to act all messed up was the liquor he brought in?

didn't delos start stammering only after he drank the liquor?

Yes that was what I alluded to before but didn't state it outright.  He only missed up once William showed up, so I have the same thought, maybe William is purposely causing him to mess up and have to be destroyed each time.  The liquour or what he states or something he does he knows will cause problems. 

14 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

MiB pushing Maeve to the edge happened several years prior to robot rebellion since she was still in the house in prairie narrative.  Afterwards she was repurposed to be the madam at Sweetwater.  Delos 149 happened after MiB's wife/Julliet killed herself (as he mentioned to Delos149) and in season 1  MiB said his wife killed herself just the previous year. 

So to me, the timeline is more or less: Julliet killed herself, MiB visited Delos149 and let him live, MiB went around WW in season 1 looking for next challenge, Ford told Bernard to clean up the facility where Delos149 was, Ford was killed / rebot rebellion, MiB started Ford's new game, Bernard was dragged by Clementine back to that facility, etc

There is a good chance William's visit to Delos 149 happened at the same week as his WW visit in season 1, meaning it happened just a week before robot rebellion.

That timeline would make sense.  And William/MiB meeting Delos just before season one would fit well with the narrative

[The Companion]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ed Harris and Jimmy Simpson are both so freaking good. Definitely an Emmy reel episode for the actors. 

Good call to everyone saying that the hunter woman was Williams daughter. She certainly takes after dad, she is very observant and clearly pays a lot of attention to the greater narrative, and not just the cheap sex and violence that a lot of guests seem to like. She seems to be too savvy to be interested in just base stuff like that. 

Hi Elise! I was wondering what happened to her. Poor Bernard, he is just having the worst kind of time. And everyone he meets wants to kick his ass, despite him being one of the least dickish people around!

It seems like the real end game here in immortality, and all of this is some kind of test run, which certainly makes sense. As profitable as Westworld certainly is, its pretty ridiculous that people are just using this amazing technology to engage in super fancy LARPing and thats it. 

So for all the money and power that Delos had, in the end, he fell victim to his own hubris and greed. He might end up living longer, in a way, but he is trapped in the same day, over and over, with his family all dead, with nothing left but going through the motions of humanity. How very appropriate of a Greek Tragedy. 

They are fantastic, and notably fantastic as they play the same character. They match each other's mannerisms so well, that they are believable as the same character. 

I am not totally sure what the real end game is. It seemed to be implied that people were unaware that their DNA and other information was being retained. I am not sure if they ultimately want to offer the technology for sale, or if they want to replace people without anyone knowing. Either way, it did lead to a pretty bleak situation for Delos. Revived over and over again to be destroyed emotionally and then physically. In that sense, I suppose he ends up in the same place as the hosts (though his prison is of his own making). 

[aemom]

One thing that I don't understand is that every time they would terminate Papa Delos, they would burn the whole "set" down.  Why wouldn't they just terminate the "host" and keep the set until they create a new host?  They clearly rebuilt it the exact same way every single time.

[Haleth]

Jim was having physical issues (his hands were shaking) even before he drank William's liquor, despite the techie saying he was doing well. And if his persona was so fragile that an emotional shock made him loopy there is no way he was ready to be turned loose. Sure, William getting Jim to mess up was deliberate but it was purposeful.

[mac123x]

37 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

ok, may seem a bit simplistic but does anyone think william was intentionally messing up delos to keep him there - and the trigger to get him to act all messed up was the liquor he brought in?

Delosbot was showing signs of instability (spilling / shaking while pouring the cream into his coffee) before William arrived each time.

 

2 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Also, I wanted to confirm that all the shot glasses Craddock was trying to force on Lawrence, and that MiB made Craddock drink, were nitroglycerin, right?

Yep.  The explosion from the first shot glass seemed a little small for the amount of nitro he was carrying. 

1 minute ago, AEMom said:

One thing that I don't understand is that every time they would terminate Papa Delos, they would burn the whole "set" down.  Why wouldn't they just terminate the "host" and keep the set until they create a new host?  They clearly rebuilt it the exact same way every single time.

Showmanship?  Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense.

2 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I am not totally sure what the real end game is. It seemed to be implied that people were unaware that their DNA and other information was being retained. I am not sure if they ultimately want to offer the technology for sale, or if they want to replace people without anyone knowing.

If Delos Corp was going to sell Robot-immortality (once they've perfected it), why would they need to surreptitiously collect the guests' DNA?  And if they are planning on copying guests' brains into duplicate-host bodies against their will... to what end?

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

If Delos Corp was going to sell Robot-immortality (once they've perfected it), why would they need to surreptitiously collect the guests' DNA?  And if they are planning on copying guests' brains into duplicate-host bodies against their will... to what end?

I don't want to get into too much speculation in a non-speculation thread, but I think that is key, isn't it? What we do know is that Delos didn't know he was a copy. Presumably, in a perfected system they could replace someone (with a few minor tweaks for their benefit) without them ever knowing. 

[showme]

So we know Ford printed a body of / for someone, it is so secretive that all the human technicians and robots worked on the project had to be killed. We also know there is a consciousness hidden in robot Peter A's head, and Delos corp will do anything to get it out of the park.

Who are they going to build as a human-host hybrid? William? Logan? Delos? or someone else?

[TobinAlbers]

24 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

MiB pushing Maeve to the edge happened several years prior to robot rebellion since she was still in the house in prairie narrative.  Afterwards she was repurposed to be the madam at Sweetwater.  Delos 149 happened after MiB's wife/Julliet killed herself (as he mentioned to Delos149) and in season 1  MiB said his wife killed herself just the previous year. 

So to me, the timeline is more or less: Julliet killed herself, MiB visited Delos149 and let him live, MiB went around WW in season 1 looking for next challenge, Ford told Bernard to clean up the facility where Delos149 was, Ford was killed / rebot rebellion, MiB started Ford's new game, Bernard was dragged by Clementine back to that facility, etc

There is a good chance William's visit to Delos 149 happened at the same week as his WW visit in season 1, meaning it happened just a week before robot rebellion.

Thanks for timeline clarification. I swear I need to keep a continuity bible for myself!

Huh. So maybe William was deliberately dumping as much emotional emotional trauma on Delos. I could see it being a dual purpose: 1) to see if it could make him clear the plateau but 2) as a clearing of the air/good-bye to him before heading out on his Westworld journey. 

Someone pointed out how it was interesting to see JS morph into the MiB over the years in this episode and then have Ed Harris's visit to Delos 149 more akin to William although you see peeks of MiB slip out.

5 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Delosbot was showing signs of instability (spilling / shaking while pouring the cream into his coffee) before William arrived each time.

Although the last time he didn't spill the cream and you thought maybe he finally cleared the hump and then he started having verbal glitches and you knew the spiral was coming.

[Ellaria]

21 minutes ago, mac123x said:

If Delos Corp was going to sell Robot-immortality (once they've perfected it), why would they need to surreptitiously collect the guests' DNA?  And if they are planning on copying guests' brains into duplicate-host bodies against their will... to what end?

16 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I don't want to get into too much speculation in a non-speculation thread, but I think that is key, isn't it? What we do know is that Delos didn't know he was a copy. Presumably, in a perfected system they could replace someone (with a few minor tweaks for their benefit) without them ever knowing. 

Agree that these are the key questions.

26 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I am not totally sure what the real end game is. It seemed to be implied that people were unaware that their DNA and other information was being retained. I am not sure if they ultimately want to offer the technology for sale, or if they want to replace people without anyone knowing. Either way, it did lead to a pretty bleak situation for Delos. Revived over and over again to be destroyed emotionally and then physically. In that sense, I suppose he ends up in the same place as the hosts (though his prison is of his own making). 

And I'm not sure what the real end game is either. We know that they have essentially eradicated disease, presumably thru their work with stolen DNA. I think that there is more to it than just "immortality." Assuming you create the initial human/host hybrid, how often does it have to be updated or revised? Does it eventually become self-aware?

And yes, this probably should move to the Speculation thread. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Uncle JUICE]

33 minutes ago, AEMom said:

One thing that I don't understand is that every time they would terminate Papa Delos, they would burn the whole "set" down.  Why wouldn't they just terminate the "host" and keep the set until they create a new host?  They clearly rebuilt it the exact same way every single time.

It's in keeping with Delos's apparent complete lack of cost sensitivity as a business. They developed all this in-reality technology, including a means to make people immortal, but never thought "Hey, is there a way to interact directly with the human brain to make it THINK this is what's happening? That way, we don't have to have all the overhead and maintenance required to make this work, AND, bonus, we don't have to build frighteningly capable AI robots who might one day want their revenge!" I love this show, but sometimes...

12 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

 

And I'm not sure what the real end game is either. I think that there is more to it than just "immortality." We know that they have essentially eradicated disease, presumably thru their work with stolen DNA. 

My wife suggested they'd use the collected information to perhaps leverage wealthy guests (All of the guests would have to be mad wealthy, right?), but that doesn't seem right. You could only do that one time, then no one else would go. 

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman said:

That also brings up the question, maybe it has been answered and I missed it :  Is Bernard then a robot clone of Arnold or was Arnold's consciousness transferred into Bernard, like Delos was trying to do?  It seems he has to be a robot clone as the technology is not yet perfected for the bot transfer, but you never know with the timelines on here

Elsie mentioned that the Delos control units were programmed using a coding language she didn't recognize, whereas earlier in the episode she was able to adjust Bernard's code without any problems. That seems to suggest that he was not created by the same mechanism as the Delos units.

Also, I'm not at all convinced that the Delos technique is actually capable of transferring consciousness, in the sense that the same being who subjectively experienced the human Delos's life went to bed one day and then woke up subjectively experiencing the robotic Delos's trials. Thus far the suggestion has been that the lab scanned Delos's brain and then created a digital copy of it -- and that couldn't possibly cause a transfer of consciousness, because you could theoretically put the human and the robot versions in the same room, and the human one would perceive the robotic one as someone external to himself, and vice versa. I'm not even sure whether there's continuity of consciousness between the different robotic Deloses; if you could create two iterations at the same time, then they clearly wouldn't share the same subjective experience either.

I would imagine that you could only transfer consciousness by isolating whatever part of the human brain is responsible for consciousness and literally transplanting it into the android's central processor, and keeping that same core of consciousness from one robotic model to the next. But if they're burning up the robots after every trial, that can't be what they're doing, can it? Plus, none of their experimentation seems focused on verifying continuity of consciousness, if that's even possible. They just seemed to be determining whether they've made an accurate and functional copy of Delos, not whether the original Delos is literally the conscious entity behind the android's eyes.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dev F

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Also, last season I liked the hosts. I loved Dolores, liked Teddy, loved Clementine, loved Maeve. This season, I hate them all. They are murderers and find sadistic ways to do the deeds. The remaining humans should be rescued and the whole place should be destroyed. It is a stretch to believe that it has taken so long to happen. In real life, one call from a cellphone to the outside world would have brought in the National Guard and the place demolished. 

Who cares how many Bernards there are. I just don't care about any of this. Well, I suppose I should stop this reply to validate that I really do not care. One last question: was this season written by the same writers as Season one? 

The military of the host country did show up, and were promptly told to fuck off.

[Blakeston]

I know there was a reference on the show to disease being wiped out, but I have to wonder if that statement was overblown.

If there's no disease in this world, then it seems odd that Juliet died from taking the wrong medication. Why would there even be medication?

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I know there was a reference on the show to disease being wiped out, but I have to wonder if that statement was overblown.

If there's no disease in this world, then it seems odd that Juliet died from taking the wrong medication. Why would there even be medication?

Perhaps those were perscribed painkillers?  You could be in pain (ie. broken bone) even when diseases (ie flu) have been eradicated 

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Another interesting thing to note, Bernard may think he's acting on his own, but the fact that he wouldn't let Elsie leave the lab without him may indicate that Ford's programming to shut down that lab and keep it secret may still be at play but it's at cross purposes with Bernard's own desires. 

I think Bernard is a sleeper agent.  He has no agency  other than what has been specifically coded by Ford, and his real agency is not conscious.

While his main programming is that he is there to assist humans, it appears he has an overriding program that if he sees a certain type of bio work being done he needs to destroy all evidence of it - human life be damned.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out he may be working on getting eternal life for Ford.   

No wonder Bernard is so confused and is having massive headaches.

Although I don't see the scar from his attempted suicide.  When Elsie commented that Bernard would never commit suicide I noticed the scar was missing.

I liked that Elise calmed down once she figures out that Bernard is a host.   However, Elise - Bernard did attack you and he still has the gun.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Macbeth

[The Companion]

45 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Elsie mentioned that the Delos control units were programmed using a coding language she didn't recognize, whereas earlier in the episode she was able to adjust Bernard's code without any problems. That seems to suggest that he was not created by the same mechanism as the Delos units.

Also, I'm not at all convinced that the Delos technique is actually capable of transferring consciousness, in the sense that the same being who subjectively experienced the human Delos's life went to bed one day and then woke up subjectively experiencing the robotic Delos's trials. Thus far the suggestion has been that the lab scanned Delos's brain and then created a digital copy of it -- and that couldn't possibly cause a transfer of consciousness, because you could theoretically put the human and the robot versions in the same room, and the human one would perceive the robotic one as someone external to himself, and vice versa. I'm not even sure whether there's continuity of consciousness between the different robotic Deloses; if you could create two iterations at the same time, then they clearly wouldn't share the same subjective experience either.

I would imagine that you could only transfer consciousness by isolating whatever part of the human brain is responsible for consciousness and literally transplanting it into the android's central processor, and keeping that same core of consciousness from one robotic model to the next. But if they're burning up the robots after every trial, that can't be what they're doing, can it? Plus, none of their experimentation seems focused on verifying continuity of consciousness, if that's even possible. They just seemed to be determining whether they've made an accurate and functional copy of Delos, not whether the original Delos is literally the conscious entity behind the android's eyes.

I agree. I think Bernard is modeled on Arnold, but that he is an original flavor robot. Basically, he physically resembles Arnold and his characteristics and backstory were set based on Arnold's actual experience. However, he appears to have consistent coding with the hosts, and he appears to run on the same system. While we know he has a backstory, he has not taken Arnold's place and he is not actually interacting with Arnold's family and friends (as far as we have seen). There is no need for fidelity, so to speak, with Arnold's original personality. 

As far as continuation of the person/consciousness goes, I think that brings us back to the Westworld theme: if you can't tell, does it matter? If they successfully create a bot that believes itself to be human, and that can continue to live with the family and friends of the deceased party without anyone knowing the difference, at what point does it become sufficient. I suppose it depends on whose perspective you are considering. I think my favorite exploration of this question is in the Old Man's War series, but I like the presentation here as well. What makes us human and what makes us us? If they had made a stable Delos 2.0 on the first day, and he had returned to his life claiming to have been miraculously cured, nobody would have been the wiser (well, until he failed to age). 

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

I'm not even sure whether there's continuity of consciousness between the different robotic Deloses;

I don't think there was.  Delosbot didn't recognize the MIB version of William initially -- I figured that was because they were restarting every attempt with the copy of James Delos they made 20+ years ago (after the retirement party).

[TexasGal]

45 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I know there was a reference on the show to disease being wiped out, but I have to wonder if that statement was overblown.

If there's no disease in this world, then it seems odd that Juliet died from taking the wrong medication. Why would there even be medication?

I thought they were telling us (with the overflowing bathtub that appeared to have blood in it) that Juliet killed herself?

[CofCinci]

Okay what B-List actors out there who can commit to a TV series look like a young Anthony Hopkins.... the second human/host hybrid will be Ford. To me it is so obvious. 

[Kid]

16 hours ago, mac123x said:

.  It wasn't until the show passed the 60 minute mark that I even realized we hadn't seen Dolores or Maeve and that I didn't care.  First episode of the season that I want to rewatch.

I have decided that I don’t like the character of Dolores. Watching her is as interesting as watching paint dry. And I thought this episode was excellent and one of the reasons was because the Dolores wasn’t in it.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Kid

[poeticlicensed]

Westworld makes my head hurt. 

[Dev F]

58 minutes ago, The Companion said:

As far as continuation of the person/consciousness goes, I think that brings us back to the Westworld theme: if you can't tell, does it matter?

One assumes it would matter a great deal to Delos himself, since it's the difference between him getting to live forever and him dying and being replaced by some robotic entity that merely thinks it's him. Maybe to him the latter is still preferable to dying like a regular slob, but it's pretty far from actual immortality.

36 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I don't think there was.  Delosbot didn't recognize the MIB version of William initially -- I figured that was because they were restarting every attempt with the copy of James Delos they made 20+ years ago (after the retirement party).

True, but that's more about memories than consciousness. You could theoretically create a series of android builds that retained the same basic organ of consciousness, but still wipe their new memories between builds.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dev F

[Pallas]

40 minutes ago, The Companion said:

As far as continuation of the person/consciousness goes, I think that brings us back to the Westworld theme: if you can't tell, does it matter? If they successfully create a bot that believes itself to be human, and that can continue to live with the family and friends of the deceased party without anyone knowing the difference, at what point does it become sufficient. I suppose it depends on whose perspective you are considering.

Yes, whose perspective? What is fidelity, when it comes to consciousness? The hybrid Delos reacted to identical stimulus in exactly the same way, every time: is that actually the definition of a coherent consciousness, or integrated personality? How does those reactions differ in any way from the Hosts' programming? How does his memory of his past life, differ from that of the awakened Hosts?

Did William really ever attempt to create an immortal Devos: and if so, did he ever intend to free him, as his own competition? Was William just looking to build a better product -- one that could pass muster with itself and its purchasers? Or was he trying to create his own beloved? "You're just a thing," he told Dolores. His daughter had the same concern about being the object of synthetic vs. organic desire. 

[DarkRaichu]

44 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I don't think there was.  Delosbot didn't recognize the MIB version of William initially -- I figured that was because they were restarting every attempt with the copy of James Delos they made 20+ years ago (after the retirement party).

That was actually a neat thing and showed how the underlying AI had progressed over time.  Once Delos realized William was old, he deduced that he did not survive whatever desease he had.  Wheras in the previous iterations William had to lead him to that realization (ie piece of paper / the scripts).

The breakdown only happened when Delos tried to asses his fitness level, ie. he could not say he was fit.  This maybe due to the body is not compatible with his mind as shown by his hands shaking.  Or his mind (or whatever approximation William created) could not comprehend how fit a robot host should be. 

[tennisgurl]

The Delosbots throw back music made me think that if there was a Westworld, I would just want to go to historical concerts and events all of the time. An story where you have to find Jimmie Hendrix's guitar before he goes live at Woodstock! Run a jazzy speakeasy during prohibition! Fight HH Holmes during the Chicago Worlds Fair! All that sounds like way more fun than shooting fake people and animals, or screwing robots. 

[The Companion]

21 minutes ago, Dev F said:

One assumes it would matter a great deal to Delos himself, since it's the difference between him getting to live forever and him dying and being replaced by some robotic entity that merely thinks it's him. Maybe to him the latter is still preferable to dying like a regular slob, but it's pretty far from actual immortality.

True, but that's more about memories than consciousness. You could theoretically create a series of android builds that retained the same basic organ of consciousness, but still wipe their new memories between builds.

 

2 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Yes, whose perspective? What is fidelity, when it comes to consciousness? The hybrid Delos reacted to identical stimulus in exactly the same way, every time: is that actually the definition of a coherent consciousness, or integrated personality? How does those reactions differ in any way from the Hosts' programming? How does his memory of his past life, differ from that of the awakened Hosts?

Did William really ever attempt to create an immortal Devos: and if so, did he ever intend to free him, as his own competition? Was William just looking to build a better product -- one that could pass muster with itself and its purchasers? Or was he trying to create his own beloved? "You're just a thing," he told Dolores. His daughter had the same concern about being the object of synthetic vs. organic desire. 

I think it is really interesting to think about that. If RobotDelos gets to decide whether he is Delos, I think it comes out as a resounding yes. He is ready to head out the door and live his life, and he shows no distress when he discovers that he is a robot. BioDelos might feel differently, but we certainly can't ask him. It is what he signed up for and his body was never going to continue indefinitely, so perhaps the continuation of his personality and memories would have been satisfactory for him. 

I think it is a good point about William. Was he ever trying to get Delos back, or was his goal always to create a thing that could pass for BioDelos, regardless of whether or not it was truly Delos. After all, the money and power would depend on whether or not others could detect that the doubles were not the original party. From his perspective, what matters is likely whether he can create a RobotDelos that convinces his family, co-workers and friends. 

[Pippin]

Compelling, interesting episode.

BUT

Enough with the gratuitous violence already, writers. The railroad scene was enough to make even Quentin Tarintino yell, " Enough already, fer chrissakes!" and I'm not nearly that inured to violence as he is. 

You're rapidly running out of sympathetic characters, show, and pretty soon I'll be taking a page from Aliens' playbook and recommend that the whole place be nuked from orbit.

I was talking back to the TV while Craddock was carrying on, asking for someone to pul-leese shoot the SOB. Glad when the MiB finally obliged. And boy, Craddock,  he blowed up really good, didn't he?

And if I contradict myself, then let me echo Walt Whitman:  "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am large; I contain multitudes."

Kudos to those as spotted Grace/Emily as William's daughter.  Let's hope Dolores never gets a hold of her.

I'm guessing the human/host Bernard built was Ford. It just seems the obvious choice. So obviously, I'll be dead wrong.

Of course, all of this raises questions about consciousness and reality. 

Does a difference that doesn't make any difference really a difference?

More when I feel better. Right now I'm about as coherent as a host off-loop.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Pippin

[parandroid]

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

As far as continuation of the person/consciousness goes, I think that brings us back to the Westworld theme: if you can't tell, does it matter? If they successfully create a bot that believes itself to be human, and that can continue to live with the family and friends of the deceased party without anyone knowing the difference, at what point does it become sufficient. I suppose it depends on whose perspective you are considering. I think my favorite exploration of this question is in the Old Man's War series, but I like the presentation here as well. 

I hadn't thought about this aspect of the episode. The gold standard for me, on this topic, is Solaris. If a clone of someone is constructed from your memory of that person, is it, from your perspective, the same person? Is that person capable of surprising you by wandering away from the beaten paths of your memories? If they do wander away, is that because of lack of detail in your memories, or is it because they have free will? What would they do if they realize that they are a clone and not the original?

Edited May 14, 2018 by parandroid
formatting

[Gobi]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The Delosbots throw back music made me think that if there was a Westworld, I would just want to go to historical concerts and events all of the time. An story where you have to find Jimmie Hendrix's guitar before he goes live at Woodstock! Run a jazzy speakeasy during prohibition! Fight HH Holmes during the Chicago Worlds Fair! All that sounds like way more fun than shooting fake people and animals, or screwing robots. 

Would not surprise me if Prohibition World was one of the parks we haven't seen yet.

[parandroid]

9 hours ago, Haleth said:

Wow!  It's starting to make sense!  (Yes,  kudos to viewers who said the park's real purpose was human eternal life and that the tiger lady was William's daughter.)  Ok, now I'm convinced the host being made secretly in Ford's bunker in season 1 is his new body and the control marble that Bernard stole is the brain for it.

Or....just to mess with William, maybe Grace / Emily is a clone bot. What if the clone bot reconciles with MIB, but the real one doesn't? Would he pick the fake or the real one? Ohhhh.....my head hurts.

[DarkRaichu]

10 minutes ago, parandroid said:

What if the clone bot reconciles with MIB, but the real one doesn't? Would he pick the fake or the real one? Ohhhh.....my head hurts.

Sorry, but that is an easy choice for a dad

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

. It is what he signed up for and his body was never going to continue indefinitely, so perhaps the continuation of his personality and memories would have been satisfactory for him. 

I think it would be a hard sell, if that's the ultimate purpose. Create a new you that will live forever! (Small print: only you won't know it cuz you'll be dead.). If your consciousness doesn't carry over, what's the point?  Unless you want to fake that someone else is still alive.  

[jane1978]

This was a good episode, but honestly the amount for forshadowing for the big twist reminded me when a soap character is about to return from a dead. It was like everybody suddenly has to talk about Wiliam´s daughter and their conflicted father/daughter relationship.

Evil Bernard is fun and I´m glad Elsie is back, because she, the main security guy and the narrative writer are like only three characters in the show who are able to talk human. Everybody else just loves speaking in riddles and sometimes it´s very tiring, like Delos Sr. during the last visit. 

Speaking off, what was the point of the repeated scripted conversation between him and William? From what I understand they imprinted his real mind onto the artificial host mind and then implanted it into a host body. So why he woud have follow a scripted narrative? And it doesn´t even make sense, because they needed to check if his humand mind is working as usual and that means the exact opposite, lots of unscripted conversations and improvisation to check his ability to react and well, think. The only time William went offscript was the last time and that was also when the reactions were most human. Instead of terminating they should build on that.

And another thing, they apparently did a new imprint of the same mind for each new model. But that´s exactly why there couldn´t be any progress. Because they always started from beginning. They needed to train the artifical brain to learn work with the imprinted memories and not do some scripted baseline test and then immediatelly reset.  

Still not sure what the big game is and why Ford invested so much into Wiliam's personal adventure. It´s like half the park characters have some special code dedicated just to him. I´m also tired of all cliché evil wildwest characters who aren´t exactly a masterpiece in writing. I know, I know, it´s on a purpose and look who is the author of their narrative, but that´s why I´m not sure why the show gives them so much space. Even when that whole overdrown town terror scene had a point in showing William is still not completely dark, it could be much shorter. 

Back to Bernard, I loved the initial scene when he and Elsie discovered the hidden lab. That was so much like a level from an adventure sci-fi game. I could see myself playing the Bernard character with NPC Elsie with some eerie cutscenes giving the hints where to go next. Very entertaining. 

Is Elsie aware that Bernard and a few other hosts are now concious? Or does she believe Bernard is just following some Ford´s advanced narrative? Her reaction after she discovered Bernard is a host was very mild and then immediatelly continued to treat him as human. Up until now she has believed all hosts are just programmed robots, suddenly her closest colegue is a free thinking host and she is like, "ok, whatever, let´s move on."

I hope there is some point in Clementine character. I liked her in the last season and felt sorry for her when she was lobotomized, but so far they totally waste her and the actress. She was the younger, more innocent *hore, and I want better for her.

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, djsunyc said:

serious desmond in the hatch vibes from lost with papa delos in the beginning.

ok, may seem a bit simplistic but does anyone think william was intentionally messing up delos to keep him there - and the trigger to get him to act all messed up was the liquor he brought in?

 

Oooooh yes to the Desmond-in-the-hatch vibe.  Now someone just needs to post the footage changing the music to Mama Cass singing "Make Your Own Kind of Music".  Oh what the heck, here's a link for those you want to relive that AWESOME moment in television. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgsNjTyGsRk

And yes, I did wonder why William would never join him in a drink.  I think you are right that we should be suspicious.

And now to keep this from being a complete "me too" post -- did I see CyborgDelos' "keeper" dead inside his cell?  If so, I'm gonna need an explanation for that.  I certainly got the sense that he was kept isolated and I can't think of a reason why the keeper would go in.  It can't be sympathy -- he was perfectly willing to burn CyborgDelos to death.  What would make him enter that enclosure?  And WTF was going on with CyborgDelos' face?  The  only thing I can think of this that Cyborg Delos began to mutilate himself -- scratching his face with his nails -- and the keeper went in to stop him . . . but if so, why?

Edited May 15, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I know there was a reference on the show to disease being wiped out, but I have to wonder if that statement was overblown.

If there's no disease in this world, then it seems odd that Juliet died from taking the wrong medication. Why would there even be medication?

The reference to disease being eliminated could refer to physical illnesses, viruses and things of that nature as opposed to mental illness. 

7 hours ago, mac123x said:

If Delos Corp was going to sell Robot-immortality (once they've perfected it), why would they need to surreptitiously collect the guests' DNA?  And if they are planning on copying guests' brains into duplicate-host bodies against their will... to what end?

I would imagine that they would want to test out as wide a variety of potential means to immortality among different conditions (races/genders/etc). And people would not necessarily sign up for that. 

7 hours ago, showme said:

So we know Ford printed a body of / for someone, it is so secretive that all the human technicians and robots worked on the project had to be killed. We also know there is a consciousness hidden in robot Peter A's head, and Delos corp will do anything to get it out of the park.

Who are they going to build as a human-host hybrid? William? Logan? Delos? or someone else?

Do we know that it is a consciousness that they are trying to get out or simply some level/type of data?

I would guess that a probable answer is Ford. Ford directed Bernard to get a consciousness and to eliminate the technicians. Ford has no incentive (as far as we know) to bring back William, Logan or Delos. But he would have an incentive to bring himself back.

Another possibility was that Ford wanted to bring back a better version of Arnold. 

7 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It's in keeping with Delos's apparent complete lack of cost sensitivity as a business. They developed all this in-reality technology, including a means to make people immortal, but never thought "Hey, is there a way to interact directly with the human brain to make it THINK this is what's happening? That way, we don't have to have all the overhead and maintenance required to make this work, AND, bonus, we don't have to build frighteningly capable AI robots who might one day want their revenge!" I love this show, but sometimes...

My wife suggested they'd use the collected information to perhaps leverage wealthy guests (All of the guests would have to be mad wealthy, right?), but that doesn't seem right. You could only do that one time, then no one else would go. 

They could blackmail people indefinitely if a) they do not let on where the blackmail information came from or b) the blackmail information is sufficiently bad that they can get the blackmail victims to keep quiet about their being blackmailed.

[WatchrTina]

10 hours ago, The Companion said:

What we do know is that Delos didn't know he was a copy.

Hmmmmm.  I don't think I agree with that.  I think Delos DID know he was a copy.  I think Bernard didn't know he was a 'bot but it seemed clear that Delos does know what is going on.  I get that from the fact that when he is told how much time has passed he is saddened but he doesn't have an existential crisis about the nature of reality (which is how I think most people would react to the news that they are a replicant.)

ETA:  Oooooh I've just had a thought.  Maybe William's goal IS to come up with a 'bot that can receive a person's consciousness -- making functional immortality a reality -- and in the service of that goal he needs a willing test subject.  As such, he's making use of Delos' desire to cheat death.  It's clear to me he has no intention of EVER letting Delos out of his cage,  but he's happy to keep experimenting on this all-too-willing test subject.

 

9 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It's in keeping with Delos's apparent complete lack of cost sensitivity as a business. They developed all this in-reality technology, including a means to make people immortal, but never thought "Hey, is there a way to interact directly with the human brain to make it THINK this is what's happening? That way, we don't have to have all the overhead and maintenance required to make this work, AND, bonus, we don't have to build frighteningly capable AI robots who might one day want their revenge!" I love this show, but sometimes...

Didn't we hear in an earlier episode that there are other people exploring those kinds of alternate realties?  I think I recall that when Logan was first approached with the idea of Westworld he dismissed it as unnecessary because there were plenty of virtual reality products out there filling that product niche.  It wasn't until he interacted with all the 'bots at the party that he realized how different, how immersive, how life-like, how COOL the bot-world was.  And of course he immediately started sucking face with one of them so you can tell he was thinking with his groin about the possibilities of Westworld.

 

3 hours ago, jane1978 said:

Still not sure what the big game is and why Ford invested so much into Wiliam's personal adventure. It´s like half the park characters have some special code dedicated just to him.

I speculate that there has been a battle of wills going on between Ford and William for decades.  William -- as the representative of Delos Corp (after ousting Logan) -- had one vision of the place.  Ford had other plans.  And I speculate that they've been fighting for control for decades.  Ford probably knew about William's secret plans -- knew about the DelosBot -- and didn't like it.  I'm not sure what Ford DID like -- clearly he didn't buy into Arnold's belief that the 'bots could achieve sentience and therefore it was immoral to use them as slaves and toys.  Maybe Ford just had a god complex and liked the idea of being the creator of a new race and therefore did not want his "children" used as receptacles for human memories.  But that makes him seem benevolent and I don't think Ford was a benevolent god.  Maybe he's more like a Greek god -- vain and occasionally petty.  Vain and petty would explain why he invested so much energy in fucking with William, setting up an elaborate "game" for him -- one that would play out even after Ford's "death."

Edited May 15, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Morrigan2575]

22 hours ago, Jocaro74 said:

Thought this was one of the best episodes. Always a fan of Ed Harris, but this is first episode I thought he should get nominated for this role. 

I was just thinking the same thing. This episode should be his Emmy/Golden Globe Nomination.

So, Ford is alive and in a new body. Right? That's why Ford sent him down there?

I had the immortality feeling after the first William/Jim scene. Glad to see I wasn't reading it totally wrong. Of course that doesn't negate the theory that William was after blackmail material as well. Both could be right.

No Dolores,  no Maeve and, surprisingly my favorite episode so far.

I think this episode furthers my belief that Dolores isn't alive/awake she's just playing a role in Ford's new game. 

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, AEMom said:

One thing that I don't understand is that every time they would terminate Papa Delos, they would burn the whole "set" down.  Why wouldn't they just terminate the "host" and keep the set until they create a new host?  They clearly rebuilt it the exact same way every single time.

My theory is that this is a lab experiment. They don't know what exactly is corrupting the host/hybrid. Could there literally be a "bug" that infects the host? So they start fresh every time. Plus it looks cool. And maybe there are changes to the "set" we aren't quite seeing. Different music for one. A change of clothing choices. By the by, Mullen's dance sequence was an unexpected delight. I bet he's a hoot at weddings.

Quote

I think this episode furthers my belief that Dolores isn't alive/awake she's just playing a role in Ford's new game. 

This would bum me out. I want progress. But there are enough hints (Maeve being told by Bernard she was following a script in last season's ep) that this could be true. And Bernard changing the nature of that thug last week into a chivalrous nice guy protecting the weak. Who is to say that Dolores can't be easily transformed despite free will?

I kind of dig William's daughter. She IS capable. And like her dad, she is out for herself in dangerous situations. I like how efficiently she escaped once she got the info she apparently wanted. 

I don't love this show, but I do admire the creators' ambition. And it is the same writers from last season. They write most of the eps (different directors). I find it interesting that they don't really show the humans being shot (Bernard's lab slaughter sequence is the exception, but wasn't that gory other than the head stomping). A face dipped in white goo isn't all that graphic.

It is a bit depressing that all the hosts that are surviving well are the violent ones. The sweeter hosts (the stable boy, Hector's wife (did she ever get a name?), and the bartender are all fodder for the more violent and proactive hosts. 

And seriously, what was up with the damn railroad tracks? That just seemed like a straight up horror narrative. 

I am beginning to wonder if the British guy, the writer, may actually be quite important to solving Ford's script. He's clever and if motivated to survive he may be able to anticipate some of the script twists and turns. Like he was smart enough to check in the snow to see the Japanese head. Survival can focus a person, you know?

[DrSpaceman]

Quote

As far as continuation of the person/consciousness goes, I think that brings us back to the Westworld theme: if you can't tell, does it matter? If they successfully create a bot that believes itself to be human, and that can continue to live with the family and friends of the deceased party without anyone knowing the difference, at what point does it become sufficient.

What you are stating would seem to be the corollary of the Turing Test for robots in regard to artificial intelligence, which states almost the same thing.  If you can't tell if its a robot or a human, according to Turing, it meets the criteria for artificial intelligence.  In a similar fashion then it would follow if you can't tell the difference between the person and the robot clone, it would "be" that person. 

The only insufficiency in that criteria is if you believe in a higher power.  In that case, unless you are somehow physically transferring the consciousness, however that may be defined, of the person to the robot mind in some way, its not the same spiritually defined being, its a replica. 

Quote

ETA:  Oooooh I've just had a thought.  Maybe William's goal IS to come up with a 'bot that can receive a person's consciousness -- making functional immortality a reality -- and in the service of that goal he needs a willing test subject.  As such, he's making use of Delos' desire to cheat death.  It's clear to me he has no intention of EVER letting Delos out of his cage,  but he's only too happy to keep experimenting on this all-too-willing test subject.

Hadn't thought of that.  Interesting to consider.  He is using Delos as the test subject to work our all the kinks so he can then use what is learned later on for, presumably, himself.  Or possible his deceased wife

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, parandroid said:

I hadn't thought about this aspect of the episode. The gold standard for me, on this topic, is Solaris. If a clone of someone is constructed from your memory of that person, is it, from your perspective, the same person? Is that person capable of surprising you by wandering away from the beaten paths of your memories? If they do wander away, is that because of lack of detail in your memories, or is it because they have free will? What would they do if they realize that they are a clone and not the original?

 

To me the issue of free will is pretty critical. If you believe that consciousness confers free will -- that being behind your particular set of eyes gives you the ability not just to experience your actions but to direct them -- then it matters very much whether a mechanical reproduction of a person contains that person's original organ of consciousness. If it doesn't, you'd have to assume that Robo Delos will end up living a very different life than Human Delos would've, because a fundamentally different entity is directing his actions. The less you believe in free will, the more you think that any consciousness will be directed down the same path by memory, environment, etc., the less that matters.

An example of a fictional world where it matters very much would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where vampires posses all the memories and emotions of their human selves, but possess a completely alien organ of consciousness that's directed toward doing evil. So even with the most virtuous person's memories and emotions, they end up being drawn toward violence and murder.

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

My theory is that this is a lab experiment. They don't know what exactly is corrupting the host/hybrid. Could there literally be a "bug" that infects the host? So they start fresh every time. Plus it looks cool.

I think you have to assume that Westworld takes place in a post-scarcity economy where you can print essentially anything you want at virtually no cost in money, time, or effort. That's the only way the insane wastefulness of the parks, where things get gunned down and blown up every goddamn day, makes any sense.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Dev F

[Captain Carrot]

Not that I'm complaining, but why did Ford keep Elsie alive? My guesses are that he thought she would be useful after the events on the S1 finale, he liked her enough to spare her, or his instructions to Bernard were imprecise enough that Bernard spared her. (Or that he killed her, and the Elsie we're seeing now is the 2nd human/host hybrid).