S06.E08: The Summit

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia is good, and she won Elizabeth back in several ways over the years.  It didn't suddenly happen.  I think a big step in winning her back was when she told Elizabeth that she tried to stop the recruitment of the other couple's son, and she would have never approved if she had known about the honeypot tricks that eventually made him kill his parents.

She's looked out for them both many times since, and she also is good with Paige. 

How much of beating Claudia was her inner fury at herself for her betrayal of Philip? 

Anyway, no choice now, she had to get along with her, Gabe flat out quit.  The other handler was certainly not better than Claudia.

It's one thing to learn to work with someone effectively again, quite another to torture someone, and then go Full Paige, accepting anything that is told to you.

Oh, well, at least the light bulb came back on. Stan's brain grew three sizes, too, along with Elizabeth's heart! Not enough for him to call the State Department, to get Liz's supposed place of birth, from her birth certificate information, but Stan crossed the 3 digit IQ threshold tonight. OK, maybe high 90s.....

Laurie Holden had 11 lines tonight. She probably thought she was in a Gulag Work Camp when this episode was shot! "One Day in the Life of Laurie Holden"!

[jjj]

I thought it was very odd that the husband of Erika left her to die with Elizabeth, after he had sat with her for a day in extremis.  Did he expect Elizabeth/Stephanie to finish the job for him?  It was awful to see him just sitting on the sofa and waiting.  And I thought that was a lot of fighting back and voluntary motion from Erika if she really was as far gone as she seemed to be, which was completely gone except for involuntary breathing.  Plus, wouldn't Elizabeth need to sign something as the person who had been present at Erika's death, once a coroner or funeral home arrived?  

Edited May 17, 2018 by jjj

[GingerMarie]

I don't think Philip and Elizabeth need to be worried about the FBI.  The KBG is gunning for them.  Claudia made sure of that.  

[Bannon]

Once again, Paige asks the dumbest effin' questions. "Gee, Claudia, do you know Gorbachev? Did you lunch with Lenin?"

Have  new speculation about next week's title. Moving to that thread...

[MrsWitter]

8 minutes ago, jjj said:

I thought it was very odd that the husband of Erika left her to die with Elizabeth, after he had sat with her for a day in extremis.  Did he expect Elizabeth/Stephanie to finish the job for him?  It was awful to see him just sitting on the sofa and waiting.  And I thought that was a lot of fighting back and voluntary motion from Erika if she really was as far gone as she seemed to be, which was completely gone except for involuntary breathing.  Plus, wouldn't Elizabeth need to sign something as the person who had been present at Erika's death, once a coroner or funeral home arrived?  

 

I read it as he had always seemed to be reluctant to let her die and Elizabeth/Stephanie knew that. Because it was not going to be a peaceful last few minutes, she encouraged him to leave after saying his final goodbye and I think he was relieved to not have to witness it.  Since assisted suicide was not legal, I don't see her husband offering up too much info to the coroner or funeral home. I don't think he needs to even mention Stephanie's presence and I doubt there would be much of an investigation into the cause of her death given her illness.

Edited May 17, 2018 by MrsWitter

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, GingerMarie said:

I don't think Philip and Elizabeth need to be worried about the FBI.  The KBG is gunning for them.  Claudia made sure of that.  

Thats what I'm speculating about...

[jjj]

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Once again, Paige asks the dumbest effin' questions. "Gee, Claudia, do you know Gorbachev?"

If awards would be given for performance of a single word, Margo Martindale would get all the awards for the way she said "No" to Paige in response to this question:  "NooOoooOOoooooo", with a constant downward inflection and disdain. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by jjj

[RedHawk]

6 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Stan to the Roy Rogers guy: Do you remember anything notable about the girlfriend?

Roy Rogers Guy: You mean like a little mole on her top lip?

He was thisclose to saying it! I’ll bet during filmimg he actually did and everyone on set had a laugh.

Renee is going to get into the FBI and totally hook up with that traitor Mail Robot. 

[anonymiss]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip, up until this year, has killed as many people as Elizabeth.

Also, Philip expected her to kill that guy in the submarine plot warehouse, but deferred to her when she just took the photo of his kid, and didn't.  She doesn't ALWAYS kill.  She hated killing the mail robot woman, it tore her up.

It would be complete bullshit to have Oleg be in more scenes, he, were this real, would try to NOT meet with Philip unless it was critical.  The initial meetings were, but now, a dead drop will work.  He's trying to stay alive, and not expose the illegals either.  There is no pressing reason to risk that, and he's picked up the FBI tails on him now.

Thank you. If Elizabeth hadn't insisted he quit, his murder toll would be comparable to hers. Evidently, there are different standards for women, though.

Bless Oleg, but yes, this show--as much as I adore it--has enough contrivances that we don't need more.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia is good, and she won Elizabeth back in several ways over the years.  It didn't suddenly happen.  I think a big step in winning her back was when she told Elizabeth that she tried to stop the recruitment of the other couple's son, and she would have never approved if she had known about the honeypot tricks that eventually made him kill his parents.

She's looked out for them both many times since, and she also is good with Paige. 

How much of beating Claudia was her inner fury at herself for her betrayal of Philip? 

Anyway, no choice now, she had to get along with her, Gabe flat out quit.  The other handler was certainly not better than Claudia.

Yes. Also, the start to gaining Elizabeth's trust was established when she told Elizabeth that Philip lied to her about sleeping with Irina. Later, Elizabeth gives Philip a hard, long look and he hilariously obliviously says, "Just drinking me in?" Her response was something cryptic like, "Yeah, just looking at things differently. And maybe we were wrong about Granny."

Edited May 17, 2018 by anonymiss

[RedHawk]

6 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Heck, in 2000 it was a big deal when Friendship Heights (a neighborhood in Chevy Chase) outlawed smoking almost everywhere outdoors. It was so controversial - and not necessarily going to withstand legal challenges - it was repealed in spring of 2001. Now, that's more and more common. Not so at the turn to the 21st century.

And now, after passing laws legalizing marijuana, people talk about the streets of DC stinking of weed! Not the streets of Friendship Heights, yet, or most of the Upper NW neighborhoods, but down in the city this is apparently true. And also on so many of the balconies of my building that are occupied by folks younger than 30. Neighbors are constantly complaining to management about the smell of weed drifting into their windows. We residents were sent a survey to vote on whether we want an entirely smoke-free building, including balconies, roof deck, and outside areas. I realized the problem isn’t cigarettes but pot smoke. How times change.

 

And speaking of young folks and to get back on topic, because I thought he played his role so well, the name of the actor who played Jackson is Austin Abrams. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by RedHawk

[Ellaria]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I'd love to see him as well.

The reality is though?  He does three things there, meets with Philip, has carefully coded phone calls with his dad and ONLY when he has something to report, and attends the class.

Meeting with Philip more often would be so out there, terrible trade-craft, and much more likely to get Philip or Oleg caught.

This is a dramatization of spy life, not a documentary. I would like to see more of the actor and I'm sure that we could have gotten another scene or two without necessarily getting him killed. I'd be happy to see him sitting in his motel room watching a movie. Sometimes reality can take a back seat. It has plenty of other times in this show.

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, the difference is? 

PHILIP suspected her.

I don't think he suspects her NOW! The character may have been introduced to show the audience that people in the intelligence/spy game have a hard time trusting. She also may have been introduced to give Stan a stable love life. Meanwhile, the character has been so poorly written that with 2 episodes left we are still debating her true purpose. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[RedHawk]

5 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

My favorite part of the episode, and that's saying a lot. So much goodness packed in one episode. (Probably too much, as others have intimated). 

"I don't know whether it was Russian spying or good old fashioned American swinging you two were doing in that back room, but I never say nothing!"

Re: Phillip's suit. I had the same question "You pick now to buy an expensive new suit?" As I watched, though, I wasn't entirely sure what he was doing. Between his melancholy expression while wearing it and him nostalgically picking up a movie set during the "glory days" of Communism, I kind of got the impression he was just trying out a new suit as sort of a last hurrah to his prior capitalism success; maybe to see if he still got the same sense of satisfaction about 80s materialism as he had a few months ago. We didn't actually see him buy it.

“good old fashioned American swinging”, LOL!

After thinking about it during the night*, I also feel that maybe Philip didn’t buy the fine suit. He was trying it on and looking at himself in it. I don’t remember the exact dialogue he had with Stavos but he said something  like “you see me in these nice clothes with an expensive car” and then we get Philip looking at himself in nice clothes. 

When he goes to Stav’s apartment it’s  clear that Stavos is living a basic middle class life. If you don’t move around in jobs you tend to get stuck with low wages due to small annual increases. Stavos hasn’t changed jobs in many years, partly out of loyalty to his employers.  It strikes me that this is sort of like a Soviet party official going to the home of a common person in the USSR. The high-up members of the party — for example, Oleg’s family — had access to better quality goods, clothes, homes, cars. Does Philip see himself in that role, the party official/KGB officer living the good life with a common man looking at him accusingly? This is exactly what he has been realizing has gone wrong, that not everyone in the collective is equal anymore, that the system has broken, but Gorbachev is “trying to make things better”.

*ETA: Yes I wake up during the night after an episode thinking about what it all meant. And last night I even dreamed The Ending. When I woke up it was all quite plausible — and now I can’t remember a single detail. This show!

Edited May 17, 2018 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

7 hours ago, jjj said:

Speaking of bad acting, again, Paige recited her lines like she was sounding them out phonetically.  But the upside was she left the room and was not seen again. 

Ah, a 98% Paige-free episode!  I’m going to say it, I am convinced that the show could have had Paige mostly in the background being funneled toward a degree in Political Science and then internships and such leading to a State Department job. Everything including the Pastor Tim storyline that put Paige front and center could have been avoided in favor of more focus on the evolution of Philip and Elizabeth. That’s just my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it.

Edited May 17, 2018 by RedHawk

[Chaos Theory]

I really liked this episode.  The walls are closing in on P&E.  I am not sure the insight of Elizabeth is sudden or has been coming for a long time and has just hit a tipping point with her.  There is a reason for the idiom “the feather that broke the camels back”.   Elizabeth has been carrying so much for so long something was bound to break her.  I thought the scene in the garage? with the picture that she almost kept was very well done.  At one point she thought of the woman with scorn but she ended up liking her.  Her death might have been brutal but it was as close to compassion as Elizabeth was capable of.

There are so many people with peices to the puzzle.  Even Stavos knew something was going on in the backroom of the travel agency but said nothing because of loyalty he thought was shared. And now says nothing because he is still loyal to the people he thought were his friends.

its not surprising at all that Claudia is an anti Gorbachev hardliner.  What is surprising is that Elizabeth isn’t and that Claudia has been lying to her this whole time.  Possibly more then we know.

Stan is gathering evidence like a cop does.  I noticed he found the guy who worked for Gregory (sorry I forgot his name) at Roy Rogers which I found funny and the hint he got was the white girl Gregory hung out with smoked like a chimney.  Closer and closer.

I still have no opinion on Renee.

i will ignore everyone  else’s opinion on Paige.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Chaos Theory
spelling

[RedHawk]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Stupid kid, he should have gone straight to the FBI with that tape.  Hey show, guess what?  Not all young adults are that stupid.  Many of us would have reacted appropriately, and certainly never have met up with her again.  We aren't all Paiges and whatever his name was.

I thought he was actually quite smart, and he was a bit suspicious of her from the very beginning. The actor certainly played it that way. He got caught up in the excitement of a possible good job and sexy times with an attractive older woman. I think he even felt there was a connection between them, which was Elizabeth’s intention.  That was why he did not either call his father and ask for advice or go directly to the police or FBI or someone in Sam Nunn’s office. First, he realized he may have been complicit in a criminal act. That would mean a lot of serious questions and admitting the sex and everything. He could be in serious trouble and  not only might he lose his current job , it would be embarrassing. Second, he just wasn’t sure what was going on. I think many people in that situation would have difficulty believing it was actually happening and while some would go directly to the authorities others would try to get the person to tell them the truth, hoping they were wrong and had not been duped. 

Jackson was naïve and confused but I don’t think he was stupid. He was smart enough to realize something was off about the whole situation and look in that box. He did not realize just how dangerous Elizabeth was until she gripped his arm to stop him from leaving the car.  A nice young man from a small town, especially back then and after they had had sex the night before, would never have expected she could be capable of violence.

Edited May 17, 2018 by RedHawk

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I mean, I know they've been using that, "They're either all the same people or they're all different people" quote in previews but seeing it in context, I just groaned at the Captain Obviousness of it all. Brandon Dirden deserved more from this character.

Looks like Renee will really have been a years-long red herring to draw someone into the FBI Building that *can* recognize the next-door neighbors.

After Claudia told Elizabeth, "We can't make you do it," I was waiting for a closet door to pop open with a bound and gagged Paige to fall out.

I am impressed they FINALLY got something good going with Elizabeth - i.e., her acting on something other than murdering innocent people in various disguises - but waiting until the second-to-last episode (given that her turn came at the very tail end of the third-to-last) to kick the ramifications of that turn into gear... yikes.

 

8 hours ago, Shriekingeel said:

AND HER HEART GREW THREE SIZES THAT DAY

 

8 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

It was like watching the Grinch!!  Elizabeth was having EST moments all of a sudden. 

 

8 hours ago, jjj said:

Renee, giggling:  "Oh, do I need to memorize all the state capitals for my interview?!"

Me:  "Nice try, Renee, we know you learned those in SpySchool."  

 

8 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

Phillip is 1000% the MVP of this season. He really is the linchpin this whole final season has been hanging on.

I'm not sure I completely buy Elizabeth's awakening here (like I didn't necessarily buy Stan's last week) as anything more than servicing the needs of the plot with so little time in the show left...but, this show is good enough, especially acting-wise, that they can pull it off, I think. Well, aside from Paige and Renee, maybe. ;)

(Also -- damn, Stavos!)

 

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Elizabeth started thinking for herself! Better late than never. I also noticed that she didn't sell out Philip to Claudia. And most importantly, she didn't kill Jackson - I was holding my breath the entire time he was in her car.

In case anyone is interested, this is the movie Philip rented.

 

8 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Well I was about to complain about the lack of Philip (and I’m still frustrated), but him saying: I put our country first, which is what you would have done. Was. Everything. He did what he thought was right. And articulated it to her. And to the audience.  And reminded her of her own priorities over the years. Thank you. 

Philip clearly wanted her to THINK about what she was doing. What she is responsible for. I’m shocked: she listened. She thought for herself. She asked questions. Told Claudia no to the murder.  Told Philip everything. To tell Oleg. Dang. What he said really did resonate with her. She was going to kill a decent guy and participate in coup. And said no. 

Not only that- she didn’t sell Philip out to Claudia. 

I thought when she and Claudia started walking down different paths, that might have been symbolic. Turns out it was. 

I find it sad that Oleg is back in the US, and we barely get to see him. 

Jackson was such an idiot to get in the car with her. How could he be that stupid?? Seriously. He KNEW. I was shocked she couldn’t bring herself to kill him. She’s thinking about her actions though. And he was so young. And scared. I think they picked a very young looking actor on purpose. I know he was supposed to be, but still. 

I think E had genuine compassion for Erica and Glenn. She couldn’t watch him say good bye, kissed Erica’s forehead. I was impressed. 

And oh yeah- one of the few people who ever saw Elizabeth as Elizabeth happens to be the one guy Stan knows. How lucky.  But- nice connection back to S1. And the cigs the camera prominently focused on last week. Lol 

I wanted to throw my remote at the TV when we saw more travel agency stuff- but Stavros acknowledging he knew they were up to something illegal, but would never tell out of loyalty was worth it. Still not enough Philip this week though. At all. 

What a beginning and ending to this episode. This was all years in the making. 

Maybe he was worried Elizabeth was going to tell Claudia on him. And he’d be dead. He gave her that power. She was angry. But, to what I suspect was pure shock on his part, she really did listen to him. 

It kind of annoys that all P had to do was tell E to "think" and then and only then does she break out of her Paige like stupor and begin to have her own mind. Hmm... "Maybe rat fink grandma was also trying to play me with the Russian stew and home movie night"? However, I get that P has always balanced her out and without him, she goes to extreme places. Like Tuan, she can not make it without a partner.

8 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Stan to the Roy Rogers guy: Do you remember anything notable about the girlfriend?

Roy Rogers Guy: You mean like a little mole on her top lip?

It's funny that the thing that has given E away is her beauty. William talked about how "she was pretty and he was lucky" and Stan looked like he was about to throw up when he heard "she smoked like a chimney" and "she was beautiful". 

It makes me think the Soviets should have frumped up real Elizabeth Jennings more so she would of totally not been as noticeable. Maybe more like Marilyn, who Gabriel described as "a woman you would not notice, even if she was sitting on your lap." 

[RedHawk]

Anyone think that Philip was contemplating a murder-suicide? Maybe he decided it was his and Elizabeth’s best way “out” and his only way to stop her from participating in something he felt was totally wrong. 

Elizabeth’s dart that the priest, the man who married them, might give him absolution — maybe he will, if Philip gets to him before the FBI does. Philip certainly needs and maybe wants it.

So suspenseful!

[BingeyKohan]

A little bit too much expositional monologuing for me, but I think we needed that to set up the final push. I think the plotting here is tremendous. It's the only way we could root for Elizabeth going into the end.

Hat tip for bringing us another important Roy Rogers. They really are revisiting all the old ghosts.

I always thought maybe Elizabeth gravitated to that painting because it reminded her of her mother. Her mother also died a wasting disease like Erika but without her daughter around to be a caregiver. Part of her wanted to hold onto it, her identity as a daughter (even a bad one) but part of her needed to burn it and leave it behind. So, there's her actual mother and the motherland she's having to unburden herself of there.

Renee working in FBI personnel is perfect, for all the background checks she can fake to position double agents. If that's how she swings. I'm not sure we'll know and I'm not sure I care. The next two episodes are going to be killer. 

[Bannon]

I've not hesitated to criticize what I thought to be bad writing, so to be fair, I really like the plot development of a bunch of neo-Stalinists in the KGB, Soviet military, and Communist Party apparatus conspiring to delegitimize Gorbachev, eventually so desperate that embark on a scheme to frame Gorbachev as a traitor. The assasination of a Gorbachev ally on a visit to Washington D.C. is a bit much, but enough assasinations of Russians in London have taken place to not dismiss it. Now we have a real, deadly, KGB civil war, with Liz and Phil embroiled. The neo-Stalinists, including Claudia, really can't allow Liz and Phil to live, since they have the dirt that could get all the neo-Stalinists arrested and executed. I hope the writers play this out well, including making Phil and Liz aware that the FBI is not their most dangerous opponent any longer.

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Then she went and put the puked on paintbrush she busted in half  in the same pocket that she pulled her little spy camera out of.  Just gross.

Wouldn't it just have been easier to put an air bubble in a vein or something?  That paint brush has to be leaving some bruising in that woman's throat.  There is no way anyone is going to believe that the woman choked on her own vomit and died.

Truthfully, nobody's demanding an autopsy on somebody with end stage cancer.

[JFParnell]

Two hours left! .... tick tock tick tock... random thoughts:

I know they needed a way -- dramatically, for Show to be happy and give characters new information -- to hear the summit negotiations, but wait a minnit: They didn't sweep the room for listening devices before the bigwigs sat down to talk about nuclear weapons? Nobody said, "Say, what's that box over in the corner? It's not ticking it is?" Maybe I missed something in how the box was placed??? Entirely possible! I'm happy to un-pick that nit if I did :)

Did anyone else expect Stan to knock on Philip's door to mooch a beer, while P was playing the Russian film? Except this time Stan, who is now and finally and officially suspicious, would be mooching under false pretenses. That might have been too obvious a scene though, Philip fumbling to quickly hide the tape (although P would never fumble).

I said way back that Renee is a red herring and I'm sticking to it! :) It would be so cheesy -- having introduced her so late in the game -- to have her in a big reveal where she pulls off the metaphorical (ooo, or maybe literal!) mask for us. Nope -- she's a red herring, and a Stepford wife to boot.

Almost no Paige this week. Bless her heart.

Have we seen the last of the mail robot? I fear we have.

I think a Suspicious Stavos could have made for an interesting little subplot for them to have developed somewhere along the way, except that they chose not to. I wonder if he would have been so loyal if he knew Elizabeth's body count (not to mention Philip's; agree with others who observe that P has taken a life or three himself, though, through the work of a fine actor he has won our general sympathy).

Jackson, you dodged a bullet, buddy. Good instincts on you, but still a little slow. We'll let it slide this time. You can thank Show for putting the P&E scene *before* you met with Liz. Otherwise you'd be dead in that alley.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

A lot of people smoked back then, that is hardly enough evidence to believe that Elizabeth is a Soviet spy.

I wonder what flipped Elizabeth's Cogswell Cog?  It couldn't be that little discussion she had with Philip.  She is pissed at Philip.  All of a sudden she changes direction that fast?  She lets the dufus kid with the weird laugh survive, then she doesn't kill who she is supposed to kill using her gun wrapped in the newspaper?

I was kind of hoping that Elizabeth completely flip and "off" Claudia.

Is Henry giving his dad the silent treatment?  I get the feeling he is.

That's one of the problems in making Liz such a robotic killing machine for so long; it prompts doubt about her sudden hesitation to keep slaughtering. If the character had been given a little more nuance, and they had dialed back the ultra violence from the beginning of the show, it makes more sense. Kerri Russell's performance has gone a long way to bridge the gap, but I wish the writing had been a better partner.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Bannon
Spelling

[mjc570]

I know very little about male fashion, but I thought the suit Philip tried on was very Russian looking.    

Speaking of Philip, I think that comment by Stavis was a wake-up for Philip, that maybe he and Elizabeth were not as surreptitious as they thought, that maybe other people (like the FBI agent living next door) might have some suspicions. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

The Americans Have A New Awareness Of The Fragility Of Human Life

Elizabeth's icy professionalism is challenged when Philip introduces her to the concept of 'morality' in our latest EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

[benteen]

Really good episode.  Definitely better than last week.  Strong episode for Keri Russell as Elizabeth though it's Philip who has the best moments.  I was so glad when he called Elizabeth out in the beginning.  I have no sympathy for Liz whatsoever.  It was satisfying when Philip told her that he was the one being loyal to the Soviet Union all along.

I can see Elizabeth having some hesitation about killing now.  The job has taken its toll on her and she's had a lot of tough, gruesome kills lately.  I still don't know if she would have hesitated to kill the negotiator though.  She's fiercely loyal to the cause but she does seem like someone to me who would kill someone she thought was betraying it.  She really isn't the questioning type either like Philip.  This is something again that could have been explored with more episodes.  Or perhaps last season but the showrunners decided to waste Season 5 patting themselves on the back for the first four seasons.  Along with Philip's new struggles with capitalism and Stan's suspicious.

Erika's death was sad and well done but I don't consider that to be one of the routine murders that Elizabeth has committed.  It was a moment of kindness in allowing her suffering to end.  Of course she was going to burn the painting though.  I admit, there was something darkly funny about Elizabeth carrying out this huge (and disturbing looking) painting from the home and then struggling to fit it in the car.  I wish she would have put that painting in Paige's room when she was sleeping so that it would scare the hell out of her when she woke up.

Minimum of Paige thankfully.  Claudia's "No" in reaction to Paige's question about Gorbachev was great.

Still too much time being spent on the travel agency but Stavos revealing that he knows something is going on between the two was definitely worth it tonight.  Makes me wonder what the rest of the employees have thought about it over the years.

Jackson the intern is dumb.  That's not a surprise, he's a friend of Paige.  But I mean, he actually bought into the shit that Liz was selling him.  He finally shows some kind of intelligence when he puts two and two together but I agree, he still acted in a stupid way, pretty much walking towards Elizabeth when he knew she was in shady shit.  Then he STILL would have gotten himself killed if Elizabeth didn't decide to grow a conscience all of a sudden.

Does anyone remember the guy from Gregory's crew that Stan interviewed?

Edited May 17, 2018 by benteen

[lucindabelle]

1 hour ago, anonymiss said:

Thank you. If Elizabeth hadn't insisted he quit, his murder toll would be comparable to hers. Evidently, there are different standards for women, though.

Bless Oleg, but yes, this show--as much as I adore it--has enough contrivances that we don't need more.

Yes. Also, the start to gaining Elizabeth's trust was established when she told Elizabeth that Philip lied to her about sleeping with Irina. Later, Elizabeth gives Philip a hard, long look and he hilariously obliviously says, "Just drinking me in?" Her response was something cryptic like, "Yeah, just looking at things differently. And maybe we were wrong about Granny."

We haven’t ever seen Philip befriend someone and then seduce their wife have we?

 

we JUST saw the difference in him with kimmy  vs her with Jackson: she didn’t kill him but wasn’t troubled by the sex. Philip postponed that for years.  Have we ever seen Phillip casually let a car land on someone?

We also see Philip care about his kids.

My impression from what the show has shown us is that Philip has a conscience and Elisabeth has a mission. I’m usually the first one to talk about different standards for men and women I don’t see it here.

[JBravoEcho09]

Quote

It kind of annoys that all P had to do was tell E to "think" and then and only then does she break out of her Paige like stupor and begin to have her own mind.

I completely disagree. I think epiphanies are real and sometimes it doesn't take much to push you over the edge. She has been running herself ragged not just all season but the past three years (and to those who say oh she's doing it an episode or two before the finale, she doesn't know she's in a TV show!). I honestly think due to her natural tendencies to follow orders and lack of empathy, especially without Phillip, she has literally turned into an all-out automaton.

Back when they were together he made her question her choices and kills multiple times (from the 4th episode where he convinces her to sit on the General Hague Intelligence to the episode where they fumbled the military base op to the episode with the plant schematics janitor). With him out of the picture, I think not only have her natural spy tendencies been dominating but also the lack of time due to him not helping hasn't allowed her the ability to sit back and think about anything (she's said she's been exhausted all season and it shows).

Just like Stan. While many of you say he's dumb and had taken stupid pills after his highly undercover op with the Klan. He knew he was undercover there and didn't develop any personal feelings for the men he was with. This has been different. There are reasons he has been blindsided because he came into this as a person with no shield built in. As long as its taken to have him figure things out with P&E, I think it's because he needs them more than he'd like to admit. While Elizabeth has poked fun of Phillip's friendship with Stan, I honestly think (more than both of them know/would admit) that's really been the only thing stopping him from going after them (I mean we all see him targeting Elizabeth first. There's a reason for that choice.)

While his spy instincts have often been repressed because of the feelings he's had for those he felt he should be loyal to, his subconscious has always been working over time. (Remember that one dream sequence with him in the office with Martha in the background stealing things off the mail robot.) So in summary, I completely buy from both of these characters "transformations" because sometimes all it takes a little push it nudge for something to click and completely change everything.

Edited May 17, 2018 by JBravoEcho09

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was so surprised that Elizabeth didn't kill Jackson that I started wondering if that was a dream sequence.

Awwww, Stavros! It's a good thing that Philip was the one who went to see him. If Stavros had said, "I will keep your secrets because I am loyal," Elizabeth would have probably added him to her kill list.

I guess the list of women with amazing hair who smoke a lot is shorter than I thought.

9 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Years ago, (preTwitler's ICE and Border Control Gestapo), I went to Tijuana for the day with my cousin. She told me that if Border Control asked me where I was from to make sure I said United States versus America because nonAmericans would say America and people from the states say they're from the United States. And I'll be damned if they didn't ask me . . . and I had to stop because with her having told me what to say I then had a brain freeze of what I was supposed to say! Had she not said anything I wouldn't have thought twice. I've always said United States, and until then, never even thought about how non U.S. folks referred to our country.

I lived in southern California so there were a lot of drunken trips to Tijuana. The answer that most people give when they go across the border at 3am is "U.S." because it's the shortest possible answer. One night, one of the guys in our group (who was tall, white, and male) decided it would be really funny to give another answer. When he was asked where he was from, he said, "Peru." The guy looked at him, clearly not wanting to do extra paperwork because a drunk college boy thought he was being funny, and said, "Really?" My friend said, "Really? Okay, Peru." The guy said, "I'm going to ask you one more time and if things don't go well, you might not be leaving here." That was enough to get him to say, "Okay, U.S.!"

In contrast, Jimmy O. Yang said in his book that he went to TJ when he was in college too and his friend told him to just show his ID and say he was American (even though he wasn't a citizen at the time - he was a permanent resident with a green card) and they let you right through. He listened to his friend and did as he said. He gave them his driver's license and when they asked if he was an American citizen, he said yes (I guess that's what they ask now instead of asking you where you're from). They brought him into the back room and asked why he had lied about being an American. They let him sweat it out and then made him pay a $360 fee for "forgetting" to bring his green card with him. As he was leaving, one of the border patrol officers said, "Don't do that again or we'll send you back where you came from."

[SunnyBeBe]

I did enjoy this episode.  I do have some questions.

I wonder why E didn't approach Claudia with a little more strategy.  The way she did it put Claudia on notice of her position and really invited Claudia to send others to take out E and her family.  Plus, they'll send another to take the target man out. Why not just tell Claudia that the guy had extra security and she couldn't get to him. (Buy some time.) Then fish about what she suspects about Mexico. She could pretend she's going to try again the next day. (Buy more time and keep your family alive.)  

I noticed the terms that Stan used when addressing Renee about the job interview.  He told her to tell the truth.  Is that something we would say to a spouse? Hmmm.  And he was sure that she would KNOCK THEM DEAD.  Okay, I think the writers are just toying with us.  And, I don't think it's funny.  But, if I go along with this charade, I would say that Renee, if hired for that position will have some authority over hiring. So would Paige's application get top priority?  Or has Paige already turned in an application that could come into Renee's possession in that job?  I know she was told to apply to the State Department, right? Do we have time for Renee to get hired and start digging into backgrounds? Not likely. 

REF. Philip's suit scene.  While it reminded me of the opening scenes of The Big Chill, later, I thought that maybe, he was TIRED of the Travel Agency and he's going to walk away and apply for a job.  So, he'll need a nice suit for his interviews. 

[Pickles]

Stan is going to figure out P and E are spies, of course. But, then will it end with Renee also being a spy, but that will be revealed to us, but not known to Stan? So, Stan will have finally figured out his neighbors are spies, but will continue living with a spy, unbeknownst to him? Just a crazy thought. 

[Dev F]

41 minutes ago, benteen said:

Jackson the intern is dumb.  That's not a surprise, he's a friend of Paige.

While there's certainly supposed to be a connection between Elizabeth telling Paige not to fuck congressional interns for information and then fucking a congressional intern for information, it's not the same intern. Paige's guy worked for Charles Bennett, not Sam Nunn.

But here's an unrelated question: if Claudia knew about Dead Hand all along, why did Elizabeth have to go to Mexico City? The original story was that she had to meet directly with one of the hardliners, because her comrades in the States couldn't know about her mission. Now it turns out her handler did know, and they just told her otherwise to keep her clean in case the mission goes bad. But you know what makes her look especially unclean? Going to Mexico City on a mission not authorized by the normal chain of command at the Centre. It's the one that alerted Arkady to the conspiracy in the first place! If Claudia was in on it the whole time, wouldn't it have been less conspicuous for her to pass the Dead Hand missions to Elizabeth?

I suppose it's possible that the latest explanation was a lie and the goal was actually to protect Claudia from being implicated if things go bad. But that doesn't seem to be something Elizabeth is considering, and it would blunt Liz's character arc considerably if she turns on Claudia not because she rejects the hardliners' ideology but because she realizes they have been planning to hang her out to dry the whole time.

[SailorGirl]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Immunity for treason? In the USA? I had to rub my eyes to make sure I was awake. I am awake and I just can't imaigine that. Unless maybe it was for one of the Trumps.

A reduced sentence for Treason? In the USA? I can't imagine that. I've always wondered what the point is when giving someone "Five life sentences".  Would Phillip be happy to have that reduced to only 2 life sentences?  I just can't see that happening.

 

Think about everything he could tell them. Alone, the intel on how Directorate S has operated would be a gold mine. Then, all the operations he and Elizabeth had done, people they flipped, all the dead drop signals, and even specific locations and items (such as which mailboxes). All that, times two. That intel would certainly be worth some sort of trade-off.  I think Philip is so beyond the point of DGAF, if Elizabeth was gone, he would spill all, and probably just ask for Paige to be able to finish college and for Henry to finish his fancy-schmancy boarding school. 
And once he's done that, under the crack FBI protection that has allowed so many other Russian turncoats to be taken out, I could envision a Sopranos-like ending for Philip -- walking down the street, someone comes up behind him, we hear a gun cock, and the the screen goes black. Who was behind him? We are left to wonder -- Stan? (Wouldn't be the first time for ol' Stanny boy); Granny? Renee? Elizabeth who, it turns out was only mostly dead and is now back deep undercover for Mother Russia? Hell, let's throw Paige -- the secret Mata Hari we underestimated all along, in as a comedic relief option! 

Edited May 17, 2018 by SailorGirl

[shura]

8 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I hadn’t put together what exactly Philip was doing watching that movie, but I think you nailed it.  He was watching a Russian movie reminding himself of what he was dying for, what he’d put first.( I think he expected Elizabeth to betray him.) What a contrast to the Paige propaganda fest. 

He must have been really depressed by the movie then. It's not exactly a movie that would inspire Soviet patriotism or reinforce commitment to die for the country. It is about people infighting and backstabbing in an effort to get some parking spaces, and it touches on the injustices of life in the USSR, things like corruption and the need to be connected to get something. Kind of like Oleg's story from last season (but a comedy, believe it or not).

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I've not hesitated to criticize what I thought to be bad writing, so to be fair, I really like the plot development of a bunch of neo-Stalinists in the KGB, Soviet military, and Communist Party apparatus conspiring to delegitimize Gorbachev, eventually so desperate that embark on a scheme to frame Gorbachev as a traitor.

Not intending this to be a knock on the writing, but that's not some brilliant idea the writers had to be particularly talented to come up with. It's all real life.

[benteen]

Stavos is lucky he didn't tell Elizabeth about his suspicions or else he would have ended up on the floor dead in his apartment.

[SunnyBeBe]

15 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Stan is going to figure out P and E are spies, of course. But, then will it end with Renee also being a spy, but that will be revealed to us, but not known to Stan? So, Stan will have finally figured out his neighbors are spies, but will continue living with a spy, unbeknownst to him? Just a crazy thought. 

I have wondered that too.  It seems rather cheesy though and I'm wondering if the writers would really go there.  I mean, it borders on absurd that after all that has happened, Stan cracks it open and yet, he's clueless that he's actually sleeping with the enemy.  lol But, whatever their explanation will be bizarre, because anything is odd and nothing is also very odd. 

Can someone tell me what the name of the movie was that Jackson brought to the hotel room?  Bringing that movie, indicated to me that he hoped, he'd get lucky.   

Edited May 17, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Chaos Theory]

While smoking alone is not enough evidence (it was the 80s) you put it with all the other evidence Stan has and he has a pretty good circumstantial case against Elizabeth.  But it is just circumstancial.  Not sure he has enough to convict and he himself doesn’t really want to believe it either.    Now if he ever decides to talk to Stavos he would have even more but then you can say...disgruntled former employee so still just circumstantial.   All Stan needs is that one piece of evidence that connects it all.

 

But I am not entirely sure he wants to find it.  

Edited May 17, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Does anyone remember the guy from Gregory's crew that Stan interviewed?

Yes. Curtis was working for Gregory in season 1, thinking that Gregory was a typical gangleader, and having no idea that Gregory was actually a communist working for the USSR. Stan correctly assessed that Curtis knew nothing about Gregory's true loyalties, and offered him immunity in exchange for helping him bust Gregory.

It was a pretty great scene. Stan said, "You and I don't have much in common, but we're both goddamn Americans, right?"

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I have wondered that too.  It seems rather cheesy though and I'm wondering if the writers would really go there.  I mean, it borders on absurd that after all that has happened, Stan cracks it open and yet, he's clueless that he's actually sleeping with the enemy.  lol But, whatever their explanation will be bizarre, because anything is odd and nothing is also very odd. 

Can someone tell me what the name of the movie was that Jackson brought to the hotel room?  Bringing that movie, indicated to me that he hoped, he'd get lucky.   

It was "Body Heat" an early 80s noir movie with a very sexy Kathleen Turner having some fairly explicit scenes with William Hurt. Definitely forshadowing.

[Novel8]

Seriously, I thought this episode was one of the best acted of them all. I cannot believe that Keri has not won an Emmy. If this was a movie she would have won an Oscar. She is so damn convincing in all her scenes, especially this last 'death' scene. I believe that Phillip is going to give himself up to Stan. Never forgotten the one scene that was shown in the last couple of weeks trailer, when he walked up to Stan and said, "i'm the one you have been looking for"...perhaps it was put there then by error, and if I am not mistaken, he looked 'dressed up'...new suit?

[Blakeston]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It was "Body Heat" an early 80s noir movie with a very sexy Kathleen Turner having some fairly explicit scenes with William Hurt. Definitely forshadowing.

He said "The Big Heat." He was far too pretentious to bring a movie as recent as Body Heat!

Edited May 17, 2018 by Blakeston

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It was "Body Heat" an early 80s noir movie with a very sexy Kathleen Turner having some fairly explicit scenes with William Hurt. Definitely forshadowing.

I did think it was an older movie though. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, shura said:

 

Not intending this to be a knock on the writing, but that's not some brilliant idea the writers had to be particularly talented to come up with. It's all real life.

Oh, I know. I'm just glad they moved that event into this story, because it creates such an interesting conflict for Liz and Phil to resolve, on many levels. Liz may not fully grasp yet, due to her ideological blinders, that the coup planners now have to kill her and Phil, but Phil must certainly understand this pretty immediately. At least I hope it is written this way. We don't need our two most important characters being written stupid again, so close to the end.

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

He said "The Big Heat." He was far too pretentious to bring a movie as recent as Body Heat!

Ah, perhaps you are right!

[SunnyBeBe]

If it's the Big Heat.....oh my.  Here's the poster for it. It says, "Somebody's Got To Pay, because you forgot to Kill me!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Heat#/media/File:Thebigheatmp.JPG

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

After Claudia told Elizabeth, "We can't make you do it," I was waiting for a closet door to pop open with a bound and gagged Paige to fall out.

I know! Heh. But I also liked Elizabeth's face when Claudia said that, because you know she (Elizabeth) was thinking about what Philip said earlier: "They tell us what to do but we do it." Maybe some of the scales are finally falling from her eyes?

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

she didn't kill Jackson - I was holding my breath the entire time he was in her car.

This show can get the most excruciating suspense from such tiny moments. That was almost unbearable. (I have to add, though, that I was super disappointed that Jackson slept with "Janet.")

10 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think Stavos is where Paige was a few seasons ago. They know something is wrong/off, but neither one had any hard proof or evidence, just a bunch of little things that don't quite add up.

Is Stavos Russian? I always wondered if he was some sort of very minor agent the KGB planted to keep an eye on Philip and Elizabeth (unbeknownst to them). If the worst happens, he can call the Centre or someone and let them know what's going on. But until then, he's an employee like everyone else.

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I agree with @Plums. I think that we have been trolled into thinking that there is more with Renee.

I think "trolled" might be a bit extreme, but the show has trained us to suspect everyone, heh. Renee might just be there to show us that Stan finally has a relationship that's kind of normal. He's not undercover anymore, so he has the time (and the desire) to devote to his marriage. Whatever PTSD he was suffering is under control, and he's content with his work (or at least not actively hating it). Maybe casting a recognizable/cult actor in the role of his wife was a way to show that. They care enough to give him more than a glorified extra as a wife (even if Renee is sort of that anyway).

10 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Having a spy in the personnel department could be incredibly useful. It would give a fantastic overview of the organization (structure, departments which would include what each department is reponsible for, who reports to whom, and so on).

For security's sake, though, wouldn't the personnel department be as compartmentalized as the rest of the organization?

6 hours ago, GingerMarie said:

I don't think Philip and Elizabeth need to be worried about the FBI.  The KBG is gunning for them.  Claudia made sure of that.  

In some respects, the KGB is always gunning for them. The FBI they can handle.

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

we JUST saw the difference in him with kimmy  vs her with Jackson: she didn’t kill him but wasn’t troubled by the sex. Philip postponed that for years.

Kimmy was underaged when she and Philip first met. Philip wasn't going to be stupid enough to risk rape charges. Plus, he was playing the long game with her. Elizabeth needed to get Jackson on board immediately.

[Plums]

I find it interesting that in this season, both Phillip and Elizabeth did something that felt like a point of no return after sleeping with targets that reminded them of their children. Phillip warned Kimmie not to go to any communist countries while she was in Greece, basically giving the game away that he was a spy the whole time to this daughter of a CIA officer, and Elizabeth let Jackson live after he's pretty much let her know explicitly that he's figured out she's a spy, and I don't think it's a stretch at all to think he reminded Elizabeth of Henry. Because her letting him go was really the major turning point, imo, even moreso than questioning and refusing a direct order from Claudia. Like, Stavos let us know this episode that the Jennings have been much sloppier about their tradecraft than they knew they were, but these two, deliberate actions of refusing to harm these kids they've used as agents in a way that obviously compromises operational security just makes me think they're both subconsciously in a place where they won't mind getting caught. 

[tpplay]

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Seriously, where the hell has Oleg been?

Shooting a couple episodes of "Homeland"?

[lucindabelle]

19 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

 

  

 Kimmy was underaged when she and Philip first met. Philip wasn't going to be stupid enough to risk rape charges. Plus, he was playing the long game with her. Elizabeth needed to get Jackson on board immediately.

 There is literally zero indication that Phillips discomfort was fear of getting caught or that he was just playing a long game. She was not under aged when he had sex with her last week and his face was a picture of misery. And frankly it was a last resort he tried to get her on board without it. Sorry, but Philip has the ability to see other people as individuals where as it’s very clear that Elizabeth mostly sees them as means to an end. Of course, she should see Jackson as being the same age as Paige and not much older than Henry but she didn’t and wouldn’t have had Philip not spoken strongly to her . 

 

The show has portrayed many times that while Philip and elizabeth have both killed, Philip actually does have a conscience where Elizabeth just can’t shake it off. Until perhaps today

[Inquisitionist]

11 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

I'm not sure I completely buy Elizabeth's awakening here (like I didn't necessarily buy Stan's last week) as anything more than servicing the needs of the plot with so little time in the show left...but, this show is good enough, especially acting-wise, that they can pull it off, I think. Well, aside from Paige and Renee, maybe. ;)

 

 

10 hours ago, mjc570 said:

Otherwise, I thought it was a decent, pretty linear episode, although I have to admit that I just didn't get how the dead artist's picture resonated so much with Elizabeth. To me, (wthout my glasses on), it l looked like a woman in extreme pain - is that how Elizabeth sees herself?

 

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

It kind of annoys that all P had to do was tell E to "think" and then and only then does she break out of her Paige like stupor and begin to have her own mind.

 

1 hour ago, JBravoEcho09 said:

I completely disagree. I think epiphanies are real and sometimes it doesn't take much to push you over the edge. She has been running herself ragged not just all season but the past three years (and to those who say oh she's doing it an episode or two before the finale, she doesn't know she's in a TV show!). I honestly think due to her natural tendencies to follow orders and lack of empathy, especially without Phillip, she has literally turned into an all-out automaton."transformations" because sometimes all it takes a little push it nudge for something to click and completely change everything.

A number of people (see first three quoted posts as examples) found Elizabeth's "awakening" too sudden and/or linear.  I agree with JBRAVOECHO09's take to some extent: I've certainly had moments of things just "clicking" in my head without my being able to say why or what made things come together for me.  With Elizabeth, I think we have to factor in Erica's influence.  The scene last week where Erica told Elizabeth she had to put herself in the picture seems to have resonated -- Elizabeth drew while traveling for a reason, and that reason seems to have been a growing respect for Erica and "art" in general, as well as the stirrings of questioning, of wanting to go deeper.  Add to that Philip's brazen confession about betraying her and why: Philip, who just last week, put his own life on the line not because he believed in the mission but because he loves Elizabeth.  I think these two things (which each reflect a culmination of many smaller moments) were enough to make Elizabeth feel it was time to better understand the why behind her missions: to put herself fully in the picture.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder why E didn't approach Claudia with a little more strategy.  The way she did it put Claudia on notice of her position and really invited Claudia to send others to take out E and her family.  Plus, they'll send another to take the target man out. Why not just tell Claudia that the guy had extra security and she couldn't get to him. (Buy some time.) Then fish about what she suspects about Mexico. She could pretend she's going to try again the next day. (Buy more time and keep your family alive.)  

I did wonder about this, too.  Perhaps she was inspired by Philip's bluntness with her earlier in the episode.  That exchange initially gobsmacked me as well.

[jjj]

I think Jackson is about to get a big old dose of validation and amazement when he reads about a spy ring being broken up in a week or two.

I agree with posters upthread that I cannot believe that a college student could walk into a State Department meeting room during a high-stakes week of high-level meetings, with a box and dump it in a corner -- *then go back and pick it up again*!  (And picking it up during yet another meeting on a different topic.)

Edited May 17, 2018 by jjj

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

 

 

 

A number of people (see first three quoted posts as examples) found Elizabeth's "awakening" too sudden and/or linear.  I agree with JBRAVOECHO09's take to some extent: I've certainly had moments of things just "clicking" in my head without my being able to say why or what made things come together for me.  With Elizabeth, I think we have to factor in Erica's influence.  The scene last week where Erica told Elizabeth she had to put herself in the picture seems to have resonated -- Elizabeth drew while traveling for a reason, and that reason seems to have been a growing respect for Erica and "art" in general, as well as the stirrings of questioning, of wanting to go deeper.  Add to that Philip's brazen confession about betraying her and why: Philip, who just last week, put his own life on the line not because he believed in the mission but because he loves Elizabeth.  I think these two things (which each reflect a culmination of many smaller moments) were enough to make Elizabeth feel it was time to better understand the why behind her missions: to put herself fully in the picture.

I did wonder about this, too.  Perhaps she was inspired by Philip's bluntness with her earlier in the episode.  That exchange initially gobsmacked me as well.

Yeah, and who says that kind of thing to Claudia and then walks out of room with your back to her?  I'd be scared, she'd hit me from behind with a poison dart or something. 

[misstwpherecool]

Stupid things people do in a horror movie chapter 100-Intern realizes he's been played and confronts a potential deadly spy alone in a place void of assistance & witnesses. After going into a restricted office he wasn't supposed to for her.  Hopefully he played her.

E basically played the intern like P played Martha posing as an insider looking for information.

Didn't E basically turn P in during S1 with negative reports about him. And E screams about loyalty to her? I don't care if it's her ah ha moment. (Although she  let the intern live-how nice)

Was P getting a new suit to meet with Henry's friend's dad/potential investor or money source? He did call Henry and was using the calculator right before.

I think P was smart not name Oleg or give the contact details.

I don't know exactly what it but I'm sensing a fizzle or maybe the final lull before the action.