S06.E07: Harvest

[shura]

20 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Umm...just remember what happened to Gaad just because someone put a pen in his office that was a bug. Right under his nose. He lost his position just because he didn't know. Now imagine Stan's predicament.

Stan literally murdered a guy, confessed to the Deputy AG and blackmailed the US government. That didn't kill his career. And now it's in jeopardy because he hasn't been able to catch these two illegals, the task no one else at the FBI hasn't been able to do either? I don't know. If that is what the writers are writing, then it's not very good. But, of course, they write what they want. Gaad's pen should have been on his housekeeping (or whoever is in charge of sweeping his office for bugs), not on him personally. They just chose to write it this way.

Thinking about the caper, the thing that caused it to go south was the very impressive ability of the FBI guy to relay the info on every car on the scene and where each one was going. I wonder if there was a way for Elizabeth to anticipate this in her planning. And maybe get a portable, industrial-strength radio jammer (I'm sure it's a thing, probably, the KGB must have one, right?) on the scene to turn on as soon as Harvest was sprung.

30 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Unintionally hilarious moments in a dark violet episode:

Stan- "I am good at figuring out when something is wrong." Uh...sure you are, buddy. How about using you FBI hookups to do a quick background check on your neighbors instead of a pretty useless breaking and entering, because there might be a huge pot of Russian Beef Stew on the stove.

Harvest- "Tell my mother that I love her and I have had a good life in which I regret nothing."  "Tell my father that I hope he dies and burns in Hell forever." Phillip nodding, " I will remember every word."

I'll add the scene where Elizabeth shows Philip her cyanide pill. "They gave me this. I cannot get arrested." - "Tell me why." - "I can't." - "So... why did you show me the pill?" - "I wanted to tell you." - "But you haven't told me anything." - "No, not really."  Okay, good talk.

Edited May 10, 2018 by shura

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, shura said:

Stan literally murdered a guy, confessed to the Deputy AG and blackmailed the US government. That didn't kill his career. And now it's on jeopardy because he hasn't been able to catch these two illegals, the task no one else at the FBI hasn't been able to do either? I don't know. If that is what the writers are writing, then it's not very good. But, of course, they write what they want. Gaad's pen should have been on his housekeeping (or whoever is in charge of sweeping his office for bugs), not on him personally. They just chose to write it this way.

Thinking about the caper, the thing that caused it to go south was the very impressive ability of the FBI guy to relay the info on every car on the scene and where each one was going. I wonder if there was a way for Elizabeth to anticipate this in her planning. And maybe get a portable, industrial-strength radio jammer (I'm sure it's a thing, probably, the KGB must have one, right?) on the scene to turn on as soon as Harvest was sprung.

I'll add the scene where Elizabeth shows Philip her cyanide pill. "They gave me this. I cannot get arrested." - "Tell me why." - "I can't." - "So... why did you show me the pill?" - "I wanted to tell you." - "But you haven't told me anything." - "No, not really."  Okay, good talk.

Often on the Americans, the FBI is about as effective as the three stooges.  Elizabeth's disguise was very bad, in the fact is looked exactly like regular Elizabeth with an auburn-haired wig. She also had some distinctive scars on her face that could or could not be a major plot point.

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, I suppose that we know now that Renee won't be the one who jumps in with the bright idea that P & E resemble the sketches, since Stan is already on it.  So, WHAT IS her purpose?  Hmm.....

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

And what happened to The Plan for Paige?  She was never intended to be an operative in the field and be in the line of fire.  How is this preparing her for an internship?

I think the time jump messed things up a bit editorially (if you get what I mean), but having some experience in fieldwork was always part of the Plan for Paige. That way she would understand how things worked on that side, and maybe could pitch in if necessary. Or even do something herself under the right circumstances.

11 hours ago, taurusrose said:

She’s taking on a cause she has no interest in

I disagree. Paige is interested, but for all the wrong reasons.

11 hours ago, chocolatine said:

So Stan finally started putting the pieces together, and it only took six years.

I knew people would remark on this, ha! I cut Stan a lot of slack because a) if Stan put the pieces together any earlier, there would be no more show, b) he was nosy at the very beginning of the show, looked around, and found nothing, so I can see him thinking everything was okay, and c) it's only about now that the FBI is getting information it can put together in a meaningful way. The noose is finally tightening around Philip and Elizabeth, and I am here for it!

Interesting interview with Keidrich Sellati. He thinks Henry was used the perfect amount.

Edited May 10, 2018 by dubbel zout
format cleanup

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, shura said:

Stan literally murdered a guy, confessed to the Deputy AG and blackmailed the US government. That didn't kill his career. And now it's in jeopardy because he hasn't been able to catch these two illegals, the task no one else at the FBI hasn't been able to do either? I don't know. If that is what the writers are writing, then it's not very good. But, of course, they write what they want. Gaad's pen should have been on his housekeeping (or whoever is in charge of sweeping his office for bugs), not on him personally. They just chose to write it this way.

Thinking about the caper, the thing that caused it to go south was the very impressive ability of the FBI guy to relay the info on every car on the scene and where each one was going. I wonder if there was a way for Elizabeth to anticipate this in her planning. And maybe get a portable, industrial-strength radio jammer (I'm sure it's a thing, probably, the KGB must have one, right?) on the scene to turn on as soon as Harvest was sprung.

I'll add the scene where Elizabeth shows Philip her cyanide pill. "They gave me this. I cannot get arrested." - "Tell me why." - "I can't." - "So... why did you show me the pill?" - "I wanted to tell you." - "But you haven't told me anything." - "No, not really."  Okay, good talk.

I'm really not trying to be hypercritical of the writing; like I said earlier in the thread, I was just happy that the Harvest exfiltration didn't feature the FBI neglecting to cover the fire escape, so I'm willing to ignore the fact that on a stakeout of this massive importance, with KGB illegals on a murder spree, there would be helicopter over the top, a couple thousand feet up with an agent with binoculars watching everything. As soon as Harvest jumped out of the car, they'd have streets blocked off, and about 50 agents descending on them.

To be fair to the writers, it's hard to mimic reality, because you need dramatic tension, but if you provide the basis for the tension, via huge stakes, then the realistic response to the huge stakes ought to significantly lower the dramatic tension. That's why dramas which feature the President of the United States as a recurring character, like Homeland, are so problematic to me. The writers for The Americans have never fully gone down that path, thank goodness, but that is one reason why the killing spree this season has been an issue. Reality demands a gigantic response to such a killing spree, but that has largely been absent. Aderholt has to explain to Stan what the picture of the two dead agents is, when in reality two agents getting gunned down in Chicago would be a huge national news story, and even before it became that, the news would rip through the FBI like wildfire.

Really, really, good writing in heavily serialized television drama is really, really difficult to do, which is why it is so seldom done.

[GingerMarie]

Just watched the episode and have not read any comments.  My take on Harvest.

Stan and Philip...that could have gone differently.  I really thought Philip might say 'he and Elizabeth were having  marital problems because of the business' or 'they have an open marriage and he was tired of it and his business is failing' , OR Stan you suck as an FBI agent and my business is faililing'.  No one made Philip go to the Windy City.  No one makes Philip do anything he does not want to do.  His SAD FACE is getting a little old.  JS.  It was his idea to cut Marilyn up.  Elizabeth was very surprised when he went for the AX.  Philip's super spy skills have always been 'spot on'.  Good to know you don't lose that killer instinct.  

For Philip and Elizabeth to think that their coming and going at all hours of the day and night have not been noticed is kind of 'stupid' on their part.  And them not noticing that someone has been in their house.  Another not so bright moment. 

I like Henry.  He is a wealth of information.  If his parents talked with him like Stan they may have realized Henry knows way too much.  I do wonder why Stan questioned Henry about his friends parents.  Not just Dad but what does Mom do?  Could it be those parents are ILLEGALS........

Harvest was 'jacked up' but did we really expect anything different.  Even cutting Marilyn up was not that big of a surprise..  After all that is what a good spy does.  Cover his tracks. 

Paige.  Who really cares anymore.  Not her as an actress but her plotline.   It has never gone anywhere and now time has run out. 

Elizabeth, her face does look clearer.  The AID/HIV storyline would have been intersting.  She is just way too predictable.  She needs to spice things up.

This was a very predictable episode.  A good episode but predictable.  PEACE

[misstwpherecool]

Was P's scene with Harvest all code. Was this Harvest's recommendation for mission/coup?  Was Harvest's love for mother love his country but his hatred of father is hatred of current leadership and the mission should escalate from foiling Gorbachev to killing him?

How would they have covered their tracks/disposed of identifying body parts if they just didn't just happen to come across an ax? This red shirted commie convert had a criminal history I guess including finger prints on file?

I guess Harvest's home and office will be ransacked/ripped apart and that's where more evidence will come from.

Assuming it's 1987 didn't the FBI change it's pursuit and shoot policy after the Miami shootout a year or two earlier?

Stan's methods are suspect but with the illegals aren't spies frequently deported rather than tried? Unless they have direct evidence to any murders the Jennings could simply be outed and deported tactics/source of evidence be darned. 

I don't care about catching the spies I just want to see justice for at least one of the Jennings murder victims so hopefully Stan going retro means that.

Edited May 10, 2018 by misstwpherecool

[Ina123]

49 minutes ago, shura said:

Stan literally murdered a guy, confessed to the Deputy AG and blackmailed the US government. That didn't kill his career.

It didn't end his career because of the blackmail and what he would do.

I don't really feel like the illegals residing under his nose would kill his career but the embarrassment will certainly change things for him personally which, I think, would lead to a career change. Gaad was so embarrassed by what happened under his nose.

[misstwpherecool]

2 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

It didn't end his career because of the blackmail and what he would do.

I don't really feel like the illegals residing under his nose would kill his career but the embarrassment will certainly change things for him personally which, I think, would lead to a career change. Gaad was so embarrassed by what happened under his nose.

With the body count over the years I think the FBI might play it down and simply get a list of as many agents as possible, arrest  and  deport/exchange them for American spies.

The presser would be how they broke up a huge spy ring and their operations void of detail.

[ChromaKelly]

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm surprised Bannon has not criticized the writing in this episode. Screw all the half-assed searching of their house. All Stan had to do was make a phone call to the airlines and check whether P & E really did fly to Houston. Once he learned they flew to Chicago, it would all be over. I'm going to take a shot at the writing this episode.

Bad writing. Bad premise. All it would take is one phone call to the airlines. WTH?

It seems like such an easy and simple premise to me for any investigator. If you are suspicious of someone - even just a tiny bit suspicious - just double check all the details about them that is easy to check. If anything doesn't pan out, then you can go further. But it's just so bad to not even take ten minutes to check what can be checked in ten  minutes. I have never before been seriously angry about the writing. But this just seems like terrible writing to me. Why wouldn't Stand call the airlines to check the details if he had even the slightest suspicion of his very bestest buddy?

Or like my husband said, go talk to some other travel agents and see if they ever get emergency phone calls in the middle of the night and have to rush off. Or do they have to fly different places and talk to clients at the drop of a hat? Maybe? IDK, I wouldn't think running a travel agency is one of those nights and weekends type jobs like being an emergency room doctor or a police officer.

[Ina123]

54 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Often on the Americans, the FBI is about as effective as the three stooges. 

If they weren't we wouldn't have had all these years to watch. Things have to happen/not happen for continuation.

 

3 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

With the body count over the years I think the FBI might play it down and simply get a list of as many agents as possible, arrest  and  deport/exchange them for American spies.

The presser would be how they broke up a huge spy ring and their operations void of detail.

Agreed.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Was P's scene with Harvest all code. Was this Harvest's recommendation for mission/coup?  Was Harvest's love for mother love his country but his hatred of father is hatred of current leadership and the mission should escalate from foiling Gorbachev to killing him?

How would they have covered their tracks/disposed of identifying body parts if they just didn't just happen to come across an ax? This red shirted commie convert had a criminal history I guess including finger prints on file?

I guess Harvest's home and office will be ransacked/ripped apart. I guess that's where more evidence will come from.

Assuming it's 1987 didn't the FBI change it's pursuit and shoot policy after the Miami shootout a year or two earlier?

Stan's methods are suspect but with the illegals aren't spies frequently deported rather than tried? Unless they have direct evidence to any murders the Jennings could simply be outed and deported tactics/source of evidence be darned. 

I don't care about catching the spies I just want to see justice for at least one of the Jennings murder victims so hopefully Stan going retro means that.

An illegal doesn't have diplomatic immunity, so they aren't deported, they are imprisoned, although Paige would be interesting, since she is a genuine citizen of the United States. The U.S. government would be willing to exchange Phil and Liz. for prisoners held by the Soviets. Paige? Because she is an actual U.S. citizen, now a conspirator in a criminal operation that has resulted in the murders of several wholly innocent U.S. citizens, including multiple members of law enforcement, at a minimum she's looking at life in prison in a Federal supermax facility, cut off from any physical contact with other human beings for the rest of her life, and minimal communication. Essentially, decades of torture, which produces insanity for a significant percentage of such prisoners. The other alternative is she'll receive the death penalty.

Heckuva parenting job there, Phil and Liz! Enjoy your dacha back in the motherland!

11 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

With the body count over the years I think the FBI might play it down and simply get a list of as many agents as possible, arrest  and  deport/exchange them for American spies.

The presser would be how they broke up a huge spy ring and their operations void of detail.

You can't play down corpses stacked to the horizon.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, the thing with P & E.....it's pretty severe.  About as severe as it gets.......so, any chance Stan tips P & E to make a run for it, before they are apprehended? WILL HE ASSIST THEM in getting out of the country? 

When we last saw Stan in the meeting room, had it already checked on Aunt Helen or whatever her name was? 

Edited May 10, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[shura]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'm really not trying to be hypercritical of the writing; like I said earlier in the thread, I was just happy that the Harvest exfiltration didn't feature the FBI neglecting to cover the fire escape, so I'm willing to ignore the fact that on a stakeout of this massive importance, with KGB illegals on a murder spree, there would be helicopter over the top, a couple thousand feet up with an agent with binoculars watching everything. As soon as Harvest jumped out of the car, they'd have streets blocked off, and about 50 agents descending on them.

Actually, a radio jammer would have helped with that, too. The FBI probably want to remain inconspicuous and keep watching Harvest in secret, so they don't really want to have too many people following him directly (a helicopter would probably be a bit of a giveaway, too). They'd need communication to call up all those hidden agents if something happens. It only makes sense to hit their ability to communicate. It really has to be in the SOP for this kind of operation, the more I think about it.

[benteen]

Quote

All Stan had to do was make a phone call to the airlines and check whether P & E really did fly to Houston. Once he learned they flew to Chicago, it would all be over.

I imagine Philip and Elizabeth did buy tickets to Houston and flew under assumed names to Chicago.  Unless they sent someone in their places to Houston, it would be pretty easy to discover whether or not they actually checked in.  There's likely nothing officially linking them to Chicago but Stan would definitely know they were lying about Houston.

Edited May 10, 2018 by benteen

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

A shallow moment in a dark and violent episode:

The outfit they put Paige in was awful when she was on her walk and talk. It made her look twice as wide and half as tall as Elizabeth and I know neither of these things to be true. Let's hope this type of bulky eighties clothing never comes back in style. Elizabeth's clothes always flatter her figure perfectly.

Not to worry. We have spandex, leggings and skinny jeans.

[Penman61]

OK, now I'm officially obsessed with the quarter-sized blemish on Elizabeth's cheek.  It's definitely on purpose, since it comes and goes, i.e., it's not make-up trying to cover up an actual Keri Russell blemish.  What is it?

Liz's Art As a Journey Into Yourself is actually quite interesting:  Elizabeth's zealotry has kept her seeing only the "decadence" of western capitalistic individualism (though she has of course LOVED HER BOOTS), but dying artist is trying to get her to see the other side of individualism, expression as identity definition, wherein you--paradoxically--discover your individual self by losing yourself in creation.  Worth noting that Liz's first drawing was a mug/vase (a mere container) but her next drawing was a window, which is a portal to seeing the world.  For someone who has spent her life as an instrument (often a weapon) of an ideology, it must be very strange to have nascent feelings of autonomy and identity through creativity rather than righteous utility.  Also worth noting that the dying artist's paintings are often of obscured, pained, distorted women's faces, which Elizabeth could easily project herself onto as she awakens.

ETA: Just to be clear, I don't think this will end in an Elizabeth transformation; I mean, she'll probably strangle a baby with a live kitten for Mother Russia in the next episode, but I do think it's giving her character some interesting shading...

Edited May 10, 2018 by Penman61

[SunnyBeBe]

Based on what we have been shown, it seems that P & E would quickly be exposed as fake since they really have nothing legit, such as birth certificates, education records, family members, old neighbors they grew up with, etc.  So, what will Stan do with it?  It makes me nervous. lol 

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I know I keep getting push back on this, and everyone else is probably right.  That said, I still think Renee is after Stan and that she works for the U.S. in some capacity.

It's a very intriguing theory and I would actually get a kick out of it, but, I'm not sure that kind of creativity is in these writers' wheelhouse, but, I'm usually wrong about these kind of things. lol 

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I thought Henry was being a brat.  He knows his father is depressed and is trying really hard to make things work.  I can understand Henry's frustration with his mom and dad leaving just as he comes home for Thanksgiving.  Still, Henry needs to cut his dad some slack.

That said, it seems like Stan and Henry would be a much better father and son combo. 

I don't think I have seen enough of Paige to get a read on who she is.  Is she an introvert?  Is she just shy?  Why does she need approval from others in order to feel anything good about herself?

 

ETA: Henry hasn't been always that easy going.  He through a hissy fit when a couple of his classmates were just tossing a Nerf football near him when he was talking on the phone with his dad.

I did too. I understood him being upset, but was still annoyed. Philip has really tried with him, and he knows his dad super stressed.  Henry didn’t need to behave like that. Just another reason for Philip to be miserable. Again. 

As a father, Stan would be a disappointment to Henry too if he’s upset about the lack of time he gets from Philip and Elizabeth. Stan is the guy who barely saw his own son for  3 years.  And when he returned, he wasn’t physically or emotionally present. Stan would not be an improvement imo. Philip has put way more effort into his kids than we ever saw Stan into Matthew. 

I think Paige is like her mom- she likes authority figures. My guess- the secret and now her decision to spy- is preventing her from getting close to people. She may be the type who has a lot of what I’d call acquaintances- people who she hangs out with on a superficial level- but not friends she’s truly close to. 

[Chaos Theory]

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Oops. Maybe I was off base. But surely an FBI agent could double check with the airlines to see if P & E really flew to Houston? At least to find out where they really did fly? I can't believe it wouldn't be fairly easy for an FBI agent to check where they flew. Wouldn't it?

They probably bought tickets.  Maybe even had “friends” fly in their stay.  Hire someone to go on a trip for them.  Plus P&E flew themselves under assumed names to and fro under different identities and wigs.  

I mean hell look at the work Stan had to do to figure out Clark Westerfeld didn’t actually exist.    These aren’t people who take stupid chances.  

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but, don't you think he must have some trepidation about exposing his BEST FRIEND?  lol  I mean, it makes Stan look like a fool at best and an accomplice at worst.

Oh, why would P say that they should FLUSH THE POISON DOWN THE TOILET?   Isn't that very unsafe?  Could poison a lot of people by going into water system.

AND, what self-respecting SPY doesn't have a security system in their home so they can detect when it has been entered?  

All around ... through and through ... A most excellent post!

APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE!

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

They probably bought tickets.  Maybe even had “friends” fly in their stay.  Hire someone to go on a trip for them.  Plus P&E flew themselves under assumed names to and fro under different identities and wigs.  

I mean hell look at the work Stan had to do to figure out Clark Westerfeld didn’t actually exist.    These aren’t people who take stupid chances.  

Except "Philip Jennings" applied for a U.S. passport. That makes uncovering the false identity a few hours work, unlike Clark Westerfeld.

[Chaos Theory]

28 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Based on what we have been shown, it seems that P & E would quickly be exposed as fake since they really have nothing legit, such as birth certificates, education records, family members, old neighbors they grew up with, etc.  So, what will Stan do with it?  It makes me nervous. lol 

There was a movie way back in 1988  called “Little Nikita”  where River Phoenix played a kid who wanted to enter the army or something but when they did a background on him they found his mom and dad had none to speak of.  They were legit sleepers but the real kind not like P&E but the kind who actually kinda became Americans.  

My point being I can see Paige going for that State Department internship and passing the background pretty easy but someone for whatever reason decides to do a enhanced background on her and that’s when the red (ha!) flags go off!!!!  

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Very true.  There's the person angle with Philip plus if Philip and Elizabeth are spies, Stan's career is likely over.

It should be over. Look what happened to Gaad after Martha. 

I really thought Stan’s confession of murder/blackmail plan to get Oleg off the hook should have been a career ender, but it wasn’t. That was one of the dumbest moments in a generally thoughtful show.

I was also on Gaad’s side when he wanted Stan fired. Who would actually want Stan working directly for them? He does too much on his own. I understood sort of why upper management liked his results, but Stan has long seemed like a big liability to me. 

Living next to and being friends with spies for 6 years should be the last straw.

At least Stan has something decent to do. He hasn’t had much to work with since end of S4. Even if I don’t buy his lightbulb moment. It felt more like- the show is ending so now Stan sees it.

[jrlr]

I wasn't particularly bothered by Stan's questions/reactions/search because I think they did a decent job of portraying him as a man who is (okay, maybe not the best spook in the world) but  suddenly very conflicted about P&E - more P than E actually.  Maybe I'm reading into it, but it seemed to me that the possible reality of his neighbors being illegals has been cropping up for him for awhile, and the not-coincidence of the Chicago shoot-out and the Jennings' travels  started pinging around in his mind, enough to question Henry and search the house.  On one hand, he's suspicious, on the other hand these people have been friends of his for years now and IRL when you start to suspect someone you know and care about of something shady, there's a part of your mind that just won't accept it until forced to do so.  And then there's the added probem of Stan being an FBI agent who will probably be disgraced when the truth about P&E is finally revealed.

Paige is once again a badly written and badly acted part.  The only thing that rang true to me was when she said she has no friends, because it seems perfectly logical that spy parents would try to keep their kids somewhat isolated (within a normal school and social framework) so that no one gets too close to the family.  And because Paige is by nature such a whiny, needy and utterly incurious person who just wants to please mom, of course she doesn't have - or even seem to want - a social circle or support system outside the family.  It's a role that could have been really interesting as a forcibly isolated teen/lost soul, but instead, Paige just comes off as a weak, flat character who barely has the makings of a good file clerk.  

[Jodithgrace]

Quote

As I said in the past, I was so hoping that Stan would want a souvenir from Houston.  An Astrodome snow globe or some such thing. 

There used to be store in Tokyo that sells "omiagi," which mean souvenirs. (maybe it still exists, but I heard about it many years ago) Japanese people are very big on bringing home gifts. However, sometimes men don't always go where they have told their wives or business associates they are going, so they stop in this shop and buy souvenirs from wherever they claimed to have gone. Just think how useful a store like that would be for P&E. 

What a tense episode. I wish Elisabeth would  just tell Paige to get out now while she still can. How could a mother possibly want her daughter to live that kind of life? Paige is so totally clueless. I just watched a documentary on the Weather Underground in the US, and how they got disgusted by the violence and stopped targeting people. Philip is way over this.  I think it might be actually  a relief for him to be caught. 

This cannot end well, especially since we have now seen the use of Chekov's little pill. I didn't see Harvest take the pill, but i saw the necklace hanging open and empty on his neck, so i assumed he took it.  

[Pink-n-Green]

11 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I agree. And even the fact that he didn't find any evidence in their house (I'm guessing) won't deter him this time. He's going to be keeping an eye on them. Which is a problem given that Elizabeth is going to be "working" a lot. 

Is there any way to connect that necklace to Elizabeth? I can't recall seeing any photos of her wearing it. 

Remember when Stan was in casa Jennings and he was looking at the family pictures on the mantel?  I wonder if Liz was wearing it then?

 

Also, the Jennings should have moved after an FBI agent moved across the street.  But I guess there wouldn't be a show then.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Pink-n-Green

[ddben]

3 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

There used to be store in Tokyo that sells "omiagi," which mean souvenirs. (maybe it still exists, but I heard about it many years ago) Japanese people are very big on bringing home gifts. However, sometimes men don't always go where they have told their wives or business associates they are going, so they stop in this shop and buy souvenirs from wherever they claimed to have gone. Just think how useful a store like that would be for P&E. 

What a tense episode. I wish Elisabeth would  just tell Paige to get out now while she still can. How could a mother possibly want her daughter to live that kind of life? Paige is so totally clueless. I just watched a documentary on the Weather Underground in the US, and how they got disgusted by the violence and stopped targeting people. Philip is way over this.  I think it might be actually  a relief for him to be caught. 

This cannot end well, especially since we have now seen the use of Chekov's little pill. I didn't see Harvest take the pill, but i saw the necklace hanging open and empty on his neck, so i assumed he took it.  

I think the turning blue and stop breathing part was a giveaway.  Phillip stopped compressing the wound when he saw.

[MisterBluxom]

58 minutes ago, shura said:

Actually, a radio jammer would have helped with that, too. The FBI probably want to remain inconspicuous and keep watching Harvest in secret, so they don't really want to have too many people following him directly (a helicopter would probably be a bit of a giveaway, too). They'd need communication to call up all those hidden agents if something happens. It only makes sense to hit their ability to communicate. It really has to be in the SOP for this kind of operation, the more I think about it.

I was kind of hoping they would stop over the top of a manhole and the cover would be lifted and Harvest would be gone. Why was I hoping for that?

 

Because it would provide many hours of bellowing laughter on this board. It would be almost impossible to get more enjoyment than would have been derived from that scene. Someone upthread referred to the Three Stooges. Watching one of their old episodes may have  provided a comparable amount of laughter. Either way, it would have been just exquisite. I can't believe it could ever get much funnier than that.

I'm hoping they may be planning for a scene in the Finale where Phillip gets dressed up in a Santa suit and makes his final escape by donning some rocket boots and flying up someone's chimney - right into the arms of Rudolph the Red Nosed Bureau Chief. Wouldn't that be at least kind of "homespun"?  Hmmm .... I'm having an internal debate as to whether or not to make this post or just erase it and avoid the embarrassment. Oh. I know. It's time for a spoiler box!

How would you like to be the head writer on a TV show that people point to and laugh?

Edited May 10, 2018 by MissBluxom

[CaliCheeseSucks]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, they seem to have always set up Henry and Stan as more compatible.  So that's why I wonder if they are setting the stage for Stan do take on Henry as the parental figure. (Paige will have Claudia.)  And P & E EXIT for good to parts unknown or just to live abroad.  Recall back when Stan and Aderholt were talking in the office about the baby and Aderholt asked Stan if he and Renee wanted a child?  Stan considered and said they were too OLD. But, maybe not for a high school student...that might work. 

If Philip and Elizabeth are exposed as spies - whether or not they are caught - it stands to reason that Henry and Paige will be deported to Mother Russia. The children of the Heathfield/Foleys were sent back by Canada; the Murphy children of Montclair, New Jersey were "repatriated." 

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, jjj said:

And what happened to The Plan for Paige?  She was never intended to be an operative in the field and be in the line of fire.  How is this preparing her for an internship?  

I have been asking variations of this question all season. 

12 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I never thought anything could be more sickening than stuffing Annaliese into a suitcase, but I was wrong. I had to cover my eyes every time the axe came down.

I think stuffing Annaliese into a suitcase was more disturbing, but to each his own. Also, why did they leave her feet attached? Couldn't law enforcement identify her with footprints?  

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Stan is no where near as good at noticing things as he thinks he is. That was funny. I really don’t buy Philip suddenly leaving as being the big light bulb moment for Stan.

It wasn't Philip leaving, it was the conversation he had with Henry in the car. Especially when Stan found out from Henry that his parents leave for trips all the time at the last second based on phone call. 

12 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I wonder how Paige thinks Elizabeth and Philip met each other. I wonder if she's ever asked. 

Even if she hasn't, I'm sure Elizabeth and Philip have a cover story, because asking a couple how they met, especially when they were young newlyweds (based on their cover story) seems like a common enough question. 

11 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I don't think there's enough time for this, but I wish he could have figured it out sooner and brought Philip in as a double agent to take down Elizabeth in exchange for immunity for himself and the kids.

I love this idea, and I think there's still plenty of time for it. We still have three episodes. 

1 hour ago, GingerMarie said:

I like Henry.  He is a wealth of information.  If his parents talked with him like Stan they may have realized Henry knows way too much.  I do wonder why Stan questioned Henry about his friends parents.  Not just Dad but what does Mom do?  Could it be those parents are ILLEGALS........

Henry doesn't actually know anything. This is what I've been predicting for awhile. Henry says something that as far as he knows is totally innocent but it causes Stan to start putting the peices together or gives him valuable new information. I'm guessing the question about his friend's mom was because it's the 1980s and two career families were becoming much more common. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

How would they have covered their tracks/disposed of identifying body parts if they just didn't just happen to come across an ax? This red shirted commie convert had a criminal history I guess including finger prints on file?

They would have taken the whole body. Philip was in the process of moving it until he saw the axe.

I loved this episode. I was riveted from beginning to end. The subtext of the conversation between Henry and Stan had me on the edge of my seat. Personally, I think Stan became suspicious now not only because of a slow accumulation of clues but because things are amping up with the summit and with the internal turmoil in the Soviet Union. P&E just don't have the luxury to be as careful about their "missions" so they skip out on Thanksgiving and leave Henry behind when he visits from school, things they probably wouldn't do if they weren't in dire straits. They've always been careful to keep of the appearance of normalcy in the past but they are faltering on that now. Hence, Stan noticing that something is off. 

The extraction a great bit of suspense and action (and too much violence for me) as well. Now both P&E have intel on the sensors which is ironic. If Philip hadn't shown up, Elizabeth may have never gotten that intel but because Philip was there and now has it too, he can now use it to try and stop what she's trying to accomplish.

[KarenX]

36 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

What a tense episode. I wish Elisabeth would  just tell Paige to get out now while she still can. How could a mother possibly want her daughter to live that kind of life?

She doesn't want her daughter to live that life and tried to tell her to get out, but... she is bad at making persuasive arguments for taking independent actions. Philip would have been able to make a convincing point. Elizabeth is just starting to think of herself as someone who as her own vision and point of view. The art lessons have triggered that awareness in her, but she hasn't practiced it enough yet. She can't articulate it well, and certainly not to overcome Paige's desperation to make her happy by doing whatever Elizabeth says. It's a tragedy of timing.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Paige obviously doesn’t know how her parents met, but I don’t think she’s processed how virtually impossible it will be for her to meet a man she can share her life with as a Russian spy. She seems very lonely, looking for something to throw herself into. I guess that’s sometimes how it happens IRL. 

 

It kind of makes sense since this is where Paige started out. She was always jealous of her parents' marriage. Now she thinks spying is the way to get that marriage. She's honestly telling Elizabeth that she thinks becoming Marilyn will lead to true love. 

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I don't think there's enough time for this, but I wish he could have figured it out sooner and brought Philip in as a double agent to take down Elizabeth in exchange for immunity for himself and the kids.

 

I hope Philip stays loyal to the USSR until death. Loyal in his fashion, that is.

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh Philip. He has just become the saddest person in the world, and its even worse seeing how happy he was when the season started.

I love how this season hammers on how stressed Elizabeth is with her entire flowerpot full of cigarette butts but nobody does sad like Philip. Hold my beer.

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Even when Elizabeth tries to give Paige an out, she wont take it, because this is her new Thing, and she was told how awesome it is by her mom. She wants to do good, but she is so naive and lacking in real forethought, that she is extremely easy to manipulate, which is both a good and bad trait in a spy I guess. 

Also Elizabeth's "out" is bullshit because as if often the case what she says and does every second of the day makes it obvious that this out is a lie. The only thing she approves of is spying. Paige might swallow any lie Elizabeth tells her in order to stay in the cult, but she knows better than to buy the lie that it's okay if she doesn't want to be in it. Okay like Henry, to whom Elizabeth no longer speaks? Or Philip who only gets anything but contempt when he's helping her spy? Elizabeth tells her every waking minute that the only way to win her approval is to commit to a life of spying.

But I do think this was her way of at least trying to feel like she gave her an out. It's like telling Philip about the pill--does she want him to take it from her? She'd never admit it, but then she also wouldn't just ask him to come help her. Even while saying she was surprised he actually came. She's starting to make some vague gestures towards people but she can't really put herself into those relationships. More often than not she's just going to the other person for reassurance herself. Paige, you sure you want to do this? Philip, you okay? 

10 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

And except for Paige, who lives in DC and could have spent two minutes hanging out with her brother or even taken him to his friend’s house for his ride back to school.

I wondered if that was an intentional thing to show that Paige is following in Elizabeth's footsteps here too. That's basically what she suggested when she said she had no friends. She doesn't value relationships with other people. Philip has put an effort into trying to stay connected to Henry, Paige and Elizabeth. The other three haven't so much. I think Philip is definitely the person that people would say was the glue that held the family together.

Not that it seems like Henry would have any fun hanging out with her anyway.

9 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

This has never been about politics for him. Elizabeth was right when she said he was in the wrong line of work. 

Maybe Philip is reflecting the Soviet mindset at the time. The personal is political. It's a rebellious act to not ask how high when the State orders you to jump. He doesn't have the power to do much but he can govern his own inner life. Elizabeth dedicates herself to doing the opposite. Philip's efforts in this area often get dismissed as just moping (I've done it too) but as a citizen of an oppressive regime he's the rebel here and he always has been. Even Elizabeth's bravest acts of espionage are ultimately based on fear of the consequences for disobeying (even if she's unaware of it). I really think it's people like Philip that are the force that eventually changes things.

I think he's going to react to the small truths Elizabeth gave him by telling her he's spying on her and trusting her not to turn him in--that would explain his memory of the wedding ceremony (which, as we recall, is a traditional, pre-Soviet Russian ceremony). Which would actually be pretty good for Elizabeth. It takes the responsibility off her shoulders if she can do her job while also playing the other side. It seems like it would be very in character for Philip to just put his life in her hands. It lays out the choice for her. (Wonder if he would tell her before or after he passed on the info.)

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

What's ridiculous is that Stan is doing B&E, instead of an hour or two of actual investigation.

This is why I interpret the scene as Stan not wanting to find anything. He feels suspicious and breaks in and does a cursory search of the house to tell himself it's not possible. If he really wanted to know the truth he'd just check out their cover IDs, but he doesn't. He's season 4 Martha. Sure they probably just wanted a search scene, but emotionally/psychologically it makes total sense to me that he'd really be reassuring himself this was a normal family rather than getting evidence. (He checked Henry's room--does he think Henry's one of them?)

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I thought Henry was being a brat.  He knows his father is depressed and is trying really hard to make things work.  I can understand Henry's frustration with his mom and dad leaving just as he comes home for Thanksgiving.  Still, Henry needs to cut his dad some slack.

Also, and I don't mean this as a big condemnation of Henry but...he left. Of course I understand why he'd be hurt at his parents not being there when he's home for vacation but when he decided to go to boarding school he made himself unavailable. He's also planning to spend the entire summer away from home. He was complaining here but he's actually exactly like his parents. He wants them there when he's available but isn't arranging his schedule around them. That's one of the small tragedies as well, whenever Philip and Henry aren't available at the same time even though they both seem to genuinely want time together.

I did wonder about how Henry was contrasting his parents. He saw work as interfering with his time with them for both of them (which would have been an even bigger issue with Stan as a parent--hello, left home for 3 years and then came back only halfway and started an affair and worked long hours) growing up but he did note that Philip made an effort while it was Elizabeth he seemed to think didn't.

It was kind of funny also that he talked about how he wouldn't know what it was like to have his mom at his beck and call when sometimes seems like Elizabeth had Philip at hers for years. It's up there with Stan saying he can tell when people aren't telling him something. Are you Stan? Are you really?

Oh, also interesting that while Henry picked up on Elizabeth's sadness on the phone because she never talks to him he totally missed that Philip was giving him his own version at Stan's and just brushed it off. Stan noticed that Philip was way too sad and serious but Henry was distracted by whatever thing he was doing at Stan's.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, they seem to have always set up Henry and Stan as more compatible.  So that's why I wonder if they are setting the stage for Stan do take on Henry as the parental figure. (Paige will have Claudia.)  And P & E EXIT for good to parts unknown or just to live abroad.  Recall back when Stan and Aderholt were talking in the office about the baby and Aderholt asked Stan if he and Renee wanted a child?  Stan considered and said they were too OLD. But, maybe not for a high school student...that might work. 

Why do either of them need parental figures even? I know Paige is always going to need some authority figure because she's a follower, though I don't know if Claudia will really have the sway over that Elizabeth has without her mother there. She doesn't seem personally interested in Paige enough to satisfy her. But Henry himself mentioned how it was unnecessary for him to even come home for the holidays. He'll graduate from high school next year and go to college and he's got a home for the summer and boarding school for all that time. Stan doesn't need a do-over kid. A do-over father isn't going to unscrew Henry up. His father's always going to be the guy it turned out he didn't know at all.

1 hour ago, GingerMarie said:

I like Henry.  He is a wealth of information.  If his parents talked with him like Stan they may have realized Henry knows way too much.  I do wonder why Stan questioned Henry about his friends parents.  Not just Dad but what does Mom do?  Could it be those parents are ILLEGALS........

 

His parents obviously know that Henry was aware of everything he told Stan but it was interesting how he was asking about his friends parents, though. Like Stan doesn't know what normal people might do for a living. Those people didn't much resemble P&E, though, since they were so wealthy. Maybe he was just getting him in questioning answer mode.

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

Was P's scene with Harvest all code. Was this Harvest's recommendation for mission/coup?  Was Harvest's love for mother love his country but his hatred of father is hatred of current leadership and the mission should escalate from foiling Gorbachev to killing him?

 

No, he just really loved his mother and hated his father and that's what was on his mind as he died. Seems like that made Philip think of Henry. Did he also think of his own parents? Who the hell knows, because Philip isn't allowed to have any family relationships outside of these ones.

But again that also underlines what's important in the last moments. Harvest reported the information he had for his job but not only did he have messages for his parents (like it was all still about the boy he was when he was recruited) he said that as his true self. In the end it's all about the personal relationships.

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

How would they have covered their tracks/disposed of identifying body parts if they just didn't just happen to come across an ax? This red shirted commie convert had a criminal history I guess including finger prints on file?

 

Presumably they were going to just dump her in the water but when Philip saw the axe he knew a good opportunity when he saw one. They could just leave her and dump her head and hands. I don't think she had fingerprints on file since she was just a librarian. But why give them anything to trace? Especially since she was from DC?

17 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

As a father, Stan would be a disappointment to Henry too if he’s upset about the lack of time he gets from Philip and Elizabeth. Stan is the guy who barely saw his own son for  3 years.  And when he returned, he wasn’t physically or emotionally present. Stan would not be an improvement imo. Philip has put way more effort into his kids than we ever saw Stan into Matthew. 

 

Absolutely! Henry and Stan are the ultimate example of how it's much easier to be the friend than the parent or the son. Matthew complained about Stan's complete absence in his life. Henry doesn't, because Henry doesn't feel entitled to Stan's time. Likewise Stan has never screwed up with Henry because Henry asks very little of him. For all his "I wish I could drive you to school myself!" Stan was back at the office and searching their house as soon as Henry was gone. They don't demand enough of each other for the novelty to wear off.

I did have to laugh when Henry was talking about his friend who was loaded and the specific cars the family had. 

13 minutes ago, jrlr said:

The only thing that rang true to me was when she said she has no friends, because it seems perfectly logical that spy parents would try to keep their kids somewhat isolated (within a normal school and social framework) so that no one gets too close to the family. 

They didn't do that. Paige did that herself. Henry had no trouble having an active social life. (Though this was often just seen as proof that Elizabeth and Philip neglected him.)

8 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

If Philip and Elizabeth are exposed as spies - whether or not they are caught - it stands to reason that Henry and Paige will be deported to Mother Russia. The children of the Heathfield/Foleys were sent back by Canada; the Murphy children of Montclair, New Jersey were "repatriated." 

Maybe, maybe not. They raised that possibility back in Trust Me and I'd guess they were keeping it open then. 

[ChromaKelly]

I need Elizabeth to tell Paige explicitly what is involved in what she does. Not just this vague, "it's dangerous" "you might get killed" "you have to give up everything". She needs to know about stuffing bodies in a suitcase, beheading/behanding the body of a colleague, sleeping with people you have zero interest in (not just seducing a guy you think is kind of cute), being exposed to deadly toxins, killing random innocent people who are in the way, finally making a friend only to have to fuck them over.

[SunnyBeBe]

35 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

If Philip and Elizabeth are exposed as spies - whether or not they are caught - it stands to reason that Henry and Paige will be deported to Mother Russia. The children of the Heathfield/Foleys were sent back by Canada; the Murphy children of Montclair, New Jersey were "repatriated." 

Yes, I'm just saying this scenario is possible, if Stan acquiesces and allows P & E to leave the country permanently, so they will not be captured or shot.

Something that Paige said got to me thinking and I think I've read it on this site as well.....recall Paige said that she wasn't afraid of dying, just being alone. I wonder if that is prophetic?  Will she be killed? 

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, ChromaKelly said:

Or like my husband said, go talk to some other travel agents and see if they ever get emergency phone calls in the middle of the night and have to rush off. Or do they have to fly different places and talk to clients at the drop of a hat? Maybe? IDK, I wouldn't think running a travel agency is one of those nights and weekends type jobs like being an emergency room doctor or a police officer.

I'm wondering if Stan will go visit the Jennings' travel agency now, and "casually" talk to some employees to try to find out more about Philip and Elizabeth's routines at work. Maybe he interviews Stavos - that guy would have no protective instincts towards Philip & Elizabeth after he was fired the day before Thanksgiving. And he's been there the whole time - he might have good info for Stan. 

Of course your idea is better - to talk to other travel agents and find out what's normal. But I don't think Stan will do that. 

[misstwpherecool]

The dying/sick artist. Does she have an actual disease or was she poisoned so spy nurses could be put in the house? Is the artist being used to soften E?

[CaliCheeseSucks]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe, maybe not. They raised that possibility back in Trust Me and I'd guess they were keeping it open then. 

I'm not sure I understand the relevance. The children's citizenship is based upon fraud and treason. Never mind that one of them has openly embraced working for the cause. They have no claim to stay in the country.

If there were more than three episodes left, I'd say there was some potential for Stan to be emotionally gutted at not just losing his best friend but causing a child neighbor who he had come to see as a second son sent thousands of miles away because Stan helped expose the spies next door.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, GingerMarie said:

For Philip and Elizabeth to think that their coming and going at all hours of the day and night have not been noticed is kind of 'stupid' on their part.  And them not noticing that someone has been in their house.  Another not so bright moment. 

I like Henry.  He is a wealth of information.  If his parents talked with him like Stan they may have realized Henry knows way too much.  I do wonder why Stan questioned Henry about his friends parents.  Not just Dad but what does Mom do?  Could it be those parents are ILLEGALS........

Right after Stan moved in they talked about needing to be careful with their comings and goings since he was FBI. Obviously, that’s been difficult to control. But- realistically- who really pays attention to the comings and goings of the neighbors? Not many in my experience. Unless they are FBI agent Stan or Mrs. Cravits(sp? bewitched neighbor). 

It looked like Stan barely touched a thing. He did more looking it seemed to me. But I only watched that once. 

Henry doesn’t know that much. And what he does know, P and E know he knows- so far anyway. Phone calls, odd hours, etc. They know he knows that. No real options there. He’s lived with them. 

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

The dying/sick artist. Does she have an actual disease or was she poisoned so spy nurses could be put in the house? Is the artist being used to soften E?

She has cancer, and is in the end stages.

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

His parents obviously know that Henry was aware of everything he told Stan but it was interesting how he was asking about his friends parents, though. Like Stan doesn't know what normal people might do for a living. Those people didn't much resemble P&E, though, since they were so wealthy. Maybe he was just getting him in questioning answer mode.

I thought Stan asked about Henry's friends' parents so that Henry wouldn't get suspicious of all the questions about Philip and Elizabeth. It could also indirectly give Stan some information about P and E: "Yeah, I told [my friend's dad] about the travel agency being in trouble, and he suggested [blahblahblah]," tells Stan maybe the travel agency is genuinely in trouble.

[jjj]

Did the box track (driven by Norm?) get away?

And did they really ask a random Mexican day laborer to hop in Harvest's car and drive away? Or was he KGB?  Still sorting out the caper.  

That seemed like a lot of monitoring for what was usually a routine drive to work.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It kind of makes sense since this is where Paige started out. She was always jealous of her parents' marriage. Now she thinks spying is the way to get that marriage. She's honestly telling Elizabeth that she thinks becoming Marilyn will lead to true love. 

I hope Philip stays loyal to the USSR until death. Loyal in his fashion, that is.

I love how this season hammers on how stressed Elizabeth is with her entire flowerpot full of cigarette butts but nobody does sad like Philip. Hold my beer.

Also Elizabeth's "out" is bullshit because as if often the case what she says and does every second of the day makes it obvious that this out is a lie. The only thing she approves of is spying. Paige might swallow any lie Elizabeth tells her in order to stay in the cult, but she knows better than to buy the lie that it's okay if she doesn't want to be in it. Okay like Henry, to whom Elizabeth no longer speaks? Or Philip who only gets anything but contempt when he's helping her spy? Elizabeth tells her every waking minute that the only way to win her approval is to commit to a life of spying.

But I do think this was her way of at least trying to feel like she gave her an out. It's like telling Philip about the pill--does she want him to take it from her? She'd never admit it, but then she also wouldn't just ask him to come help her. Even while saying she was surprised he actually came. She's starting to make some vague gestures towards people but she can't really put herself into those relationships. More often than not she's just going to the other person for reassurance herself. Paige, you sure you want to do this? Philip, you okay? 

I wondered if that was an intentional thing to show that Paige is following in Elizabeth's footsteps here too. That's basically what she suggested when she said she had no friends. She doesn't value relationships with other people. Philip has put an effort into trying to stay connected to Henry, Paige and Elizabeth. The other three haven't so much. I think Philip is definitely the person that people would say was the glue that held the family together.

Not that it seems like Henry would have any fun hanging out with her anyway.

Maybe Philip is reflecting the Soviet mindset at the time. The personal is political. It's a rebellious act to not ask how high when the State orders you to jump. He doesn't have the power to do much but he can govern his own inner life. Elizabeth dedicates herself to doing the opposite. Philip's efforts in this area often get dismissed as just moping (I've done it too) but as a citizen of an oppressive regime he's the rebel here and he always has been. Even Elizabeth's bravest acts of espionage are ultimately based on fear of the consequences for disobeying (even if she's unaware of it). I really think it's people like Philip that are the force that eventually changes things.

I think he's going to react to the small truths Elizabeth gave him by telling her he's spying on her and trusting her not to turn him in--that would explain his memory of the wedding ceremony (which, as we recall, is a traditional, pre-Soviet Russian ceremony). Which would actually be pretty good for Elizabeth. It takes the responsibility off her shoulders if she can do her job while also playing the other side. It seems like it would be very in character for Philip to just put his life in her hands. It lays out the choice for her. (Wonder if he would tell her before or after he passed on the info.)

This is why I interpret the scene as Stan not wanting to find anything. He feels suspicious and breaks in and does a cursory search of the house to tell himself it's not possible. If he really wanted to know the truth he'd just check out their cover IDs, but he doesn't. He's season 4 Martha. Sure they probably just wanted a search scene, but emotionally/psychologically it makes total sense to me that he'd really be reassuring himself this was a normal family rather than getting evidence. (He checked Henry's room--does he think Henry's one of them?)

Also, and I don't mean this as a big condemnation of Henry but...he left. Of course I understand why he'd be hurt at his parents not being there when he's home for vacation but when he decided to go to boarding school he made himself unavailable. He's also planning to spend the entire summer away from home. He was complaining here but he's actually exactly like his parents. He wants them there when he's available but isn't arranging his schedule around them. That's one of the small tragedies as well, whenever Philip and Henry aren't available at the same time even though they both seem to genuinely want time together.

I did wonder about how Henry was contrasting his parents. He saw work as interfering with his time with them for both of them (which would have been an even bigger issue with Stan as a parent--hello, left home for 3 years and then came back only halfway and started an affair and worked long hours) growing up but he did note that Philip made an effort while it was Elizabeth he seemed to think didn't.

It was kind of funny also that he talked about how he wouldn't know what it was like to have his mom at his beck and call when sometimes seems like Elizabeth had Philip at hers for years. It's up there with Stan saying he can tell when people aren't telling him something. Are you Stan? Are you really?

Oh, also interesting that while Henry picked up on Elizabeth's sadness on the phone because she never talks to him he totally missed that Philip was giving him his own version at Stan's and just brushed it off. Stan noticed that Philip was way too sad and serious but Henry was distracted by whatever thing he was doing at Stan's.

Why do either of them need parental figures even? I know Paige is always going to need some authority figure because she's a follower, though I don't know if Claudia will really have the sway over that Elizabeth has without her mother there. She doesn't seem personally interested in Paige enough to satisfy her. But Henry himself mentioned how it was unnecessary for him to even come home for the holidays. He'll graduate from high school next year and go to college and he's got a home for the summer and boarding school for all that time. Stan doesn't need a do-over kid. A do-over father isn't going to unscrew Henry up. His father's always going to be the guy it turned out he didn't know at all.

His parents obviously know that Henry was aware of everything he told Stan but it was interesting how he was asking about his friends parents, though. Like Stan doesn't know what normal people might do for a living. Those people didn't much resemble P&E, though, since they were so wealthy. Maybe he was just getting him in questioning answer mode.

No, he just really loved his mother and hated his father and that's what was on his mind as he died. Seems like that made Philip think of Henry. Did he also think of his own parents? Who the hell knows, because Philip isn't allowed to have any family relationships outside of these ones.

But again that also underlines what's important in the last moments. Harvest reported the information he had for his job but not only did he have messages for his parents (like it was all still about the boy he was when he was recruited) he said that as his true self. In the end it's all about the personal relationships.

Presumably they were going to just dump her in the water but when Philip saw the axe he knew a good opportunity when he saw one. They could just leave her and dump her head and hands. I don't think she had fingerprints on file since she was just a librarian. But why give them anything to trace? Especially since she was from DC?

Absolutely! Henry and Stan are the ultimate example of how it's much easier to be the friend than the parent or the son. Matthew complained about Stan's complete absence in his life. Henry doesn't, because Henry doesn't feel entitled to Stan's time. Likewise Stan has never screwed up with Henry because Henry asks very little of him. For all his "I wish I could drive you to school myself!" Stan was back at the office and searching their house as soon as Henry was gone. They don't demand enough of each other for the novelty to wear off.

I did have to laugh when Henry was talking about his friend who was loaded and the specific cars the family had. 

They didn't do that. Paige did that herself. Henry had no trouble having an active social life. (Though this was often just seen as proof that Elizabeth and Philip neglected him.)

Maybe, maybe not. They raised that possibility back in Trust Me and I'd guess they were keeping it open then. 

Stan is not like Martha, or should not be, in any way, shape, or form. If that is what the writers are going for, they, not for the first time, don't understand at all the character they created.

Paige is an adult, genuine, citizen of the United States, fully complicit in a criminal conspiracy to damage the national security of the United States, and that conspiracy has resulted in the murders of very many wholly innocent U.S. citizens, including many law enforcement officers. Paige isn't getting deported. She's either going to spend the rest of her life in solitary, in a 5×8 cell, or she is going to be executed.

Henry is a 17 year old  juvenile, genuine, U.S. citizen, uninvolved in the criminal conspiracy of his parents. He's not getting deported, either. He's going to write a best selling memoir, and do Johnny Carson's show. 

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, I suppose that we know now that Renee won't be the one who jumps in with the bright idea that P & E resemble the sketches, since Stan is already on it.  So, WHAT IS her purpose?  Hmm.....

I think that Renee will be an unwitting "lightbulb" for Philip and/or Elizabeth to realize the FBI is on to them. Just like Henry was for Stan. She'll say something about how she was at the FBI for an interview and saw a file with Elizabeth's name on it and thought how crazy that was that there's a criminal out there with the same name! Something that makes Stan wince and Philip and/or Elizabeth act super normal and leave as quickly and normally as possible from wherever they are with Stan and Renee and then finally, finally, have to get out of town. Do they make it? Stan will be 100% watching them. Do they kill him? 

IDK, it seems like it would be a good parallel for the "innocent" party to be the one who spills the beans. To make the parallel even better, she does it when Stan isn't even there. 

I really don't understand what the writers intended with Renee. 

[BingeyKohan]

19 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I need Elizabeth to tell Paige explicitly what is involved in what she does. Not just this vague, "it's dangerous" "you might get killed" "you have to give up everything". She needs to know about stuffing bodies in a suitcase, beheading/behanding the body of a colleague, sleeping with people you have zero interest in (not just seducing a guy you think is kind of cute), being exposed to deadly toxins, killing random innocent people who are in the way, finally making a friend only to have to fuck them over.

You're right! Or a version of that suited to what they seem to have in mind for her - which would be: 'i hear you when you say you feel lonely and are looking forward to having a partner like your father. BUT working at the State Department you won't actually need a partner, and it's better if you don't have a civilian spouse you're lying to at home. So: spinsterhood for you, forever. Still in?'

[MisterBluxom]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I love how this season hammers on how stressed Elizabeth is with her entire flowerpot full of cigarette butts but nobody does sad like Philip. Hold my beer.

Nice observation.

For me, it was Stan asking about the fictitious Aunt. As soon as he got some answers from Henry ...

As soon as Henry told Stan that he had never met this fictitious Aunt, I knew the jig was up. P & E were toast! There was no way they could ever wriggle out of this mess. The moment that Stan heard the Aunt was fictitious was the moment that the game was up. There will be no escape for the Jennings. But, of course, we all knew this was coming. I'm just beginning to feel resentful and angry that this came with only 3 remaining episodes.

Dang it all! I'm just getting more and more angry. I would have loved to have seen a full season of the Jennings coming to terms with the inevitable. With only 3 episodes remaining, it seems like we won't ever get any emotional satisfaction.

Edited May 10, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Dev F]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure they probably just wanted a search scene, but emotionally/psychologically it makes total sense to me that he'd really be reassuring himself this was a normal family rather than getting evidence. (He checked Henry's room--does he think Henry's one of them?)

I actually thought it was interesting that he doesn't check Henry's room all that thoroughly. He went into Paige's room and poked around at her jewelry, but when he got to Henry's he just peeked in briefly, ignoring the shelf full of books and other conspicuous points of interest, and quickly moved on.

I agree that the visit was more about settling his thoughts than conducting an actual search for clues, but I'm not sure even Stan knew whether the goal was to alleviate his concerns or validate them. "You don't know what you see, unt-- You need to bring yourself into it. You don't, what is the point? But if you do, you do, there's a moment when it's not you seeing it, it's-- I don't know, it's-- Something come-- Something comes through."

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Something that Paige said got to me thinking and I think I've read it on this site as well.....recall Paige said that she wasn't afraid of dying, just being alone. I wonder if that is prophetic?  Will she be killed? 

But if it's prophetic, she would end up alone, not dead, right? When I read this bit from Bannon earlier in the thread . . .

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Paige? Because she is an actual U.S. citizen, now a conspirator in a criminal operation that has resulted in the murders of several wholly innocent U.S. citizens, including multiple members of law enforcement, at a minimum she's looking at life in prison in a Federal supermax facility, cut off from any physical contact with other human beings for the rest of her life, and minimal communication.

. . . I realized that this sort of fate, much more so than dying, would be Paige's absolute worst nightmare.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Nice observation.

For me, it was Stan asking about the fictitious Aunt. As soon as he got some answers from Henry ...

As soon as Henry told Stan that he had never met this fictitious Aunt, I knew the jig was up. P & E were toast! There was no way they could ever wriggle out of this mess. The moment that Stan heard the Aunt was fictitious was the moment that the game was up. There will be no escape for the Jennings. 

But there was an "aunt" -- Paige visited her, as Henry said.  Not fictitious to Henry, although *suspicious* to Stan.