S04.E12: Sweet Sorrow

[Dee]

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A Lyon health scare shakes up Empire, as Cookie holds down the fort, in spite of it all. Both Andre and Jamal try to right their wrongs, and Jamal makes a shocking revelation on live TV with Robin Roberts (guest-starring as herself). Eager to take Empire to new heights, Eddie's motives are questioned when numbers don't add up. Meanwhile, Hakeem and Tiana find common ground and Becky reveals the secret she's been keeping from J. Poppa.

[MyAimIsTrue]

If there's anything on TV that's funnier than Cookie, Carol, and Candace I haven't seen it.

[Dee]

9 minutes ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

If there's anything on TV that's funnier than Cookie, Carol, and Candace I haven't seen it.

Candace sprinting out of the bedroom clutching an armful of ipads had me on the floor!

[mtlchick]

24 minutes ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

If there's anything on TV that's funnier than Cookie, Carol, and Candace I haven't seen it.

I am normally mixed on Vivica A Fox but she cracks me up on this show.  I still maintain last season's Vegas caper is one of the best the show has done. 

[wanderingstar]

This episode made me happy. 

Everyone trying to get Cookie to rest was amusing. That said, I wish she had taken their advice. The stress of dealing with her family is clearly getting to her.

I wish the family had not shut Andre out. Cookie's his mother too.

Lucious' prayer managed to be both hilarious and heartfelt.

LOVED seeing Candace and Carol again.

The confrontation with Eddie was great. I'm so glad Forrest Whitaker is on this show, though I don't know how long Eddie has left.

I liked the Takeem song. I'm gonna have to get the damn season soundtrack, aren't I?

[Empress1]

I mean, I get that we shouldn't try to kill people (ha), but if anyone deserves it, it's Lucious. Just because he's acting like a human being now doesn't mean he hasn't done some really, really foul shit to basically everyone he's ever known, including/especially his sons. Shutting Andre out feels like a plot hole to me in light of that.

The sisters are hilarious. ("Oh, you married a white woman?") I want to see their mother! Who should play her?

[Dee]

Exiling rogue Lyons when they misbehave isn't new for the Lyon Family. They acted the exact same way to Hakeem after he ousted Lucious as CEO.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Dee

[MyAimIsTrue]

11 hours ago, mtlchick said:

I am normally mixed on Vivica A Fox but she cracks me up on this show.

Same here.  The role really plays well into her skills.

[byrd]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I mean, I get that we shouldn't try to kill people (ha), but if anyone deserves it, it's Lucious. Just because he's acting like a human being now doesn't mean he hasn't done some really, really foul shit to basically everyone he's ever known, including/especially his sons. Shutting Andre out feels like a plot hole to me in light of that.

The sisters are hilarious. ("Oh, you married a white woman?") I want to see their mother! Who should play her?

I was hoping to see Cookie's mother, this will be interesting.. Maybe Diana Carroll , I would like her as the mother.  There are so many mature black women actors that would be great , for some reason Dianna Carroll came to my mind. Patti Labelle plays Queen Latifah's mother on Star,  she's very good. I excited to see who Lee Daniels cast as the mother.

[tennisgurl]

I cant wait to meet Cookies mom, thats going to be amazing. But, maybe wait until she feels better. Poor Cookie is running herself ragged trying to deal with everything. It was funny seeing everyone desperately trying to keep Cookie from working, while Cookie tries to get around them. Especially when she showed up in the conference call. "Jewish mothers got nothing on Cookie". 

Lucious grabbing a crucifix and threatening it to make Cookie better is just so...Empire. I love it. Lucious is basically an evil demon from the ninth level of Hell most days, but I do think he loves Cookie as much as he`s capable to loving anyone selflessly. I know I should hate him, but its really hard sometimes! 

The sisters are great as always. Vivica A. Fox is a riot. 

The music is really on point this season, I loved Tiana and Hakeems duet. 

Eddie is in trouble with the Lyons, and thats never a good place to be. I also dont know if I buy what he was saying about other labels not respecting them. I think he exaggerated to get them on his side.

Becky's baby daddy seems like a good guy. 

[Vixenstud]

When Lucious gave that prayer in the chapel I was frightened and turned on at the same time….from his blasphemous prayer to his raw declaration of love to Cookie, TH was on fiyah this eppy!

Loved the Cookie/Candace and Carol show, they should do that more often.

When Jamal tapped his heart to Becky as she and J.Poppa went to get the abortion, I almost shed a tear….their friendship is sweet and tender and reminds me of how much I miss a friend that’s no longer in my life.

I always knew Eddie was up to no good….cain’t be that nice.  And I’m waiting for him to come on to Tiana, he has a creepy attachment to her.  Takeem’s song was dope though.

For Cookie’s mother, may I suggest the wonderfully talented Lonette McKee or Pam Grier?  These are da bomb actresses who should be working often.

[Jeopardy15]

I was angry with almost everyone during this episode. Lucious for thinking he could just yell at the hospital staff and get his way. Hakeem and Jamal for shooing Andre away from their mother. Lucious again for not understanding that Andre wanted to kill HIM not Cookie. Eddie for just being a snake in the grass. Tiana for being so naive about Eddie. But most of all Cookie for not caring more about her health than her family and that damn company. We (women) always do this. We take care of everyone and everything but not ourselves.  Cookie’s story brought up so many feelings for me. 

[Biggie B]

Cookie's storyline was actually difficult for me. I had a heart attack when I was 44 years old. I had angioplasty like Cookie (the use of the balloon to open up the artery), but I did actually have two stents inserted into the artery to keep it open. The procedure is done by going in via a major artery in the groin. And Carol was right - Cookie did need to get up and walk a little bit. Although I had a complication right after the procedure, once that was resolved, they got me up and walking the next morning, and I was instructed to walk, slowly, through the day on a level surfaces (easy in the hospital - up and down the hallway). I know this wasn't a "very special episode" about women's heart health, and how different the symptoms of a heart attack are for women, but they did nail a few of the symptoms many women experience, particularly the nausea and the sweating. People tend to think of the wildly drastic, dramatic scenes in movies or TV shows in which a person having a heart attack suddenly clutches their chest, gasps for air, and then keels over. While that does happen, it's not like that for many people - and again, women may present completely differently than women. Anyway - even over 11 years later, I found myself squirming at the beginning when Cookie was taken away in the ambulance. Lots of memories for me, and none of them exactly good!

I don't believe for a minute that Becky will go through with the abortion. I think she will change her mind at the last second. Or she'll have a miscarriage. I have no backup for saying this, but I feel as if the show wouldn't be allowed by "the powers that be" to have a character have an abortion. They can talk about it - but can't actually have it happen. I hope I am wrong. If that's what Becky wants, she should be able to go through with it. But it's such a loaded issue that I just don't see the show going there, unfortunately.

Other than the bad personal memories, I enjoyed the episode very much. I didn't even remember or realize that Cookie's mother was alive, so that should be fun to have her appear! 

I was dismayed that Jamal's cheese slid off the cracker during the interview. I was glad he started going off script but he never actually SAID anything. He had the chance to speak from his heart and instead, he just got angry and stormed off, accomplishing nothing. A squandered opportunity.

Only Lucious could threaten Jesus - that was a great scene! 

[thuganomics85]

Man, you know Lucious is desperate when he actually asks Candace and Carol for help!  Seeing the sisters together again was hilarious.  And now I really want to me Cookie's mom.  I can only wonder how that will turn out, especially since Grandma Leah has set the bar so high as crazy moms go.

Still friction going on with the Lyons, but it looks like Andre stopped the bleeding by figuring out Eddie's game.  Pretty much in character, because I totally believe that in Lucious and Cookie's mind, trying to steal Empire from this is way worst than trying to kill them.  Murder at least requires termination and drive, but stealing their company is just rude and in poor taste, dammit!  Definitely think Eddie isn't done though.

At this point, Cookie should know that sending Jamal to do a live interview that he clearly doesn't want to do, is just going to end badly for everyone involved.

Hope J Poppa is sincere about supporting Becky, no matter what.  At least Jamal was a good friend to her throughout it all.

Points to Hakeem and Tiana for sucking it up and being professional, even if it required Cookie to almost collapse to do so.

[journalism16]

14 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I mean, I get that we shouldn't try to kill people (ha), but if anyone deserves it, it's Lucious. Just because he's acting like a human being now doesn't mean he hasn't done some really, really foul shit to basically everyone he's ever known, including/especially his sons. Shutting Andre out feels like a plot hole to me in light of that.

The sisters are hilarious. ("Oh, you married a white woman?") I want to see their mother! Who should play her?

   Their mother will be played by Alfre Woodard, we will meet her in episode 16.

[Margohill]

Excellent episode. A step up from last week. The Empire writers have got their mojo back, thank Goodness. This is the kind of drama that catapulted Empire to higher heights and I don't need to explain that because the ratings speak for itself. 

The hospital scene with Cookie being wheeled in really got me worried. Luscious screaming at the healthcare providers was typical. He was in just too much shock he didn't know how to contain himself so he had to take it out on Jesus! That was classic Luscious! 

Jamal and Hakeem need to have several seats. How dare they drive Andre out of the room. It's his mother too. As someone said it above, the bomb in Vegas was meant for Lucious not for Cookie. Jamal better not forget that he kicked his own mother out of the house when he took over the company. That was evil of Jamal especially since Cookie had exhausted all her energy and time fighting to see him excel and that's how repaid her. As for Hakeem he went into a devilish pact with the evil Mrs. Dubois and that's how she got to all of them almost costing Andre's life. As for Lucious, I can only imagine how many lives he must have taken so they better spare me with their "holier than Andre' attitude. That was uncalled for.

Cookie and her sisters had some of the most hilarious scenes and I was shocked when her sister mentioned her mom! Cookie needed rest but having been in charge of the family for so long, I can understand how difficult it was for her when she was hit with that illness and got grounded. One of the most touching scenes was when she cried to Lucious about being afraid to die. That was Cookie at her FINEST. It's been a long time since Empire wrote a scene like this for Cookie. About time. Typical of Lucious to preach his love for Cookie only when she almost dies but he was convincing and for once I believed Lucious. He was very scared.

Becky's boyfriend is a really great guy. When he showed up at the clinic to support her, I was moved and hoped she would change her mind about the abortion. I hope she does.

Tiana and Eddy's business hook-up is still something I am interested to see how it will play out.

Andre outing Eddie to his parents was excellent. I thought for a moment that Eddie was going to deny it and was shocked he admitted it. I guess he knew Andre had him and he had no way out but to confess. When it comes to business savvy, no Lyon can beat Andre. He's smart, sharp, and pays attention to detail. Lucious has to be proud he has a son like Andre otherwise Eddie would have swiped Empire from them, easily.

The whole episode was superb. 9/10

........Next episode is father and son confrontation. Lucious finally meets with Andre one-on-one for a private chat....LOL!!!! About time. I can't wait. It's been a long time coming. Andre should have a long list of queries and Lucious better admit his faults because he has many and he has wronged his son in so many ways.

[journalism16]

12 minutes ago, Margohill said:

Excellent episode. A step up from last week. The Empire writers have got their mojo back, thank Goodness. This is the kind of drama that catapulted Empire to higher heights and I don't need to explain that because the ratings speak for itself. 

The hospital scene with Cookie being wheeled in really got me worried. Luscious screaming at the healthcare providers was typical. He was in just too much shock he didn't know how to contain himself so he had to take it out on Jesus! That was classic Luscious! 

Jamal and Hakeem need to have several seats. How dare they drive Andre out of the room. It's his mother too. As someone said it above, the bomb in Vegas was meant for Lucious not for Cookie. Jamal better not forget that he kicked his own mother out of the house when he took over the company. That was evil of Jamal especially since Cookie had exhausted all her energy and time fighting to see him excel and that's how repaid her. As for Hakeem he went into a devilish pact with the evil Mrs. Dubois and that's how she got to all of them almost costing Andre's life. As for Lucious, I can only imagine how many lives he must have taken so they better spare me with their "holier than Andre' attitude. That was uncalled for.

Cookie and her sisters had some of the most hilarious scenes and I was shocked when her sister mentioned her mom! Cookie needed rest but having been in charge of the family for so long, I can understand how difficult it was for her when she was hit with that illness and got grounded. One of the most touching scenes was when she cried to Lucious about being afraid to die. That was Cookie at her FINEST. It's been a long time since Empire wrote a scene like this for Cookie. About time. Typical of Lucious to preach his love for Cookie only when she almost dies but he was convincing and for once I believed Lucious. He was very scared.

Becky's boyfriend is a really great guy. When he showed up at the clinic to support her, I was moved and hoped she would change her mind about the abortion. I hope she does.

Tiana and Eddy's business hook-up is still something I am interested to see how it will play out.

Andre outing Eddie to his parents was excellent. I thought for a moment that Eddie was going to deny it and was shocked he admitted it. I guess he knew Andre had him and he had no way out but to confess. When it comes to business savvy, no Lyon can beat Andre. He's smart, sharp, and pays attention to detail. Lucious has to be proud he has a son like Andre otherwise Eddie would have swiped Empire from them, easily.

The whole episode was superb. 9/10

........Next episode is father and son confrontation. Lucious finally meets with Andre one-on-one for a private chat....LOL!!!! About time. I can't wait. It's been a long time coming. Andre should have a long list of queries and Lucious better admit his faults because he has many and he has wronged his son in so many ways.

  I agree with everything you said. With that being said, I was very upset with the way Jamal and Hakeem treated Andre, that's his mother, too. And they weren't quite angels themselves in previous seasons. Given the way Jamal treated Cookie after he started running the company in Season 2, and this is how he repaid her? And let's not forget Hakeem. While in Season 1, Hakeem wanted nothing to do with his mother after she came home, because he was so upset, I will give him a pass, but when they began building their relationship, and he was kidnapped, her heart would be ripped out if something happened to him, because she wanted so much to protect him. But they both should realize that if they're mother had passed away, none of them would get her back, especially Hakeem, and they would not know what to do. And as for Hakeem, if she had passed away, then Hakeem would have lost her twice. 

What I mean by this is, Hakeem is the youngest, and while she was in prison, he did not get to see or know his mother, while before she was sent away, Andre and Jamal were older, and knew her well, while Hakeem was a baby and would not remember her. When she first came home, he wanted nothing to do with her, until the middle and end of the first season, when she tried to get to know him, as well as trying to discipline him; and of course, he was not receptive, nor did he want to listen to her; so she kept him at an arm's length, while trying to teach him that he should respect her, and Jamal told him, "How long did you think I would continue to let you disrespect our mother, when all she's trying to do is help you grow up." And, if they didn't start building their relationship in Season 2, I wonder where they would be now, because if she had passed away, he would not have her once again, and that would have been another wake up call for all of them. So both Jamal and Hakeem should both remember how they treated her, before they assume their "holier than thou" attitudes toward Andre, when it concerns their mother. 

 

I truly hope Becky changes her mind about the abortion. And Hakeem and Tiana working together to help Cookie rest and feel better was sweet. The entire episode was so good, and I can't wait until next week. And I'm glad that Jamal has been there for Becky.

[Dee]

So what if Andre's car bomb was 'just' meant for Lucious? That doesn't make his actions remotely right or justifiable.

The fact that Andre previously felt, and still feels, no remorse about almost destroying his family, AGAIN, because he finally got what he wanted is truly beyond the pale.

Even now, Andre stomps around with a hang dog expression, as if his parents and brothers should be grateful that their father, and more especially, their mother, narrowly avoided being collateral damage in his crazed attempt at patricide is patently ridiculous.

And Andre being temporarily exiled for acting a whole ass fool isn't about him. It's what the Lyons do when various family members of the family act out.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Dee

[Margohill]

7 hours ago, Dee said:

So what if Andre's car bomb was 'just' meant for Lucious? That doesn't make his actions remotely right or justifiable.

Correct, but a pot must never call a kettle black. Lucious shot and killed his own cousin Bunky in cold blood and we know he has killed many more. That wasn't remotely right or justifiable either. Andre is Lucious's blood so as they say "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." Andre has mental issues which makes him far less stable than Luscious so when your father sleeps with the woman who killed your baby and your wife, to me it is justifiable if that is enough to push Andre over the edge and plot to bomb his father. JMHO

7 hours ago, Dee said:

Even now, Andre stomps around with a hang dog expression,

I interpret his hang dog expression as guilt for what he did and not what you suggest. It had weighed heavily on him for a long time and that's why he confessed and took on all the blame, sparing Shine from any blame. Don't forget that Andre saved his father by screaming for him not to get in the car at the last minute. That was luck but at least he made that attempt to save them otherwise he would have causally stayed silent and let them get into the car which would have killed them both.

 

7 hours ago, Dee said:

And Andre being temporarily exiled for acting a whole ass fool isn't about him. It's what the Lyons do when various family members of the family act out.

Hakeem was never exiled when they found out he had made a devilish alliance with the evil Mrs. Dubois which put all the Lyon boys in peril. 

[Dee]

51 minutes ago, Margohill said:

Correct, but a pot must never call a kettle black. Lucious shot and killed his own cousin Bunky in cold blood and we know he has killed many more. That wasn't remotely right or justifiable either.

Lucious shot Bunky because Bunky was attempting to extort him. He didn't decide to randomly murder someone, let alone someone he considered family, without provocation.

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Andre has mental issues which makes him far less stable than Luscious so when your father sleeps with the woman who killed your baby and your wife, to me it is justifiable if that is enough to push Andre over the edge and plot to bomb his father. JMHO

Except Anika had absolutely NOTHING to do with Andre's attempted murder. He was, and still is, motivated by pure greed. 

Also, even if Anika had factored into Andre's motivations, his actions still wouldn't be remotely right or justifiable.

And if Andre's mental issues are so severe that he feels homicide is a proper response to being passed over for a promotion, he's not the least bit fit to be CEO of a major company.

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I interpret his hang dog expression as guilt for what he did and not what you suggest.

Except it's not guilt. At all.

Andre confessed to Lucious about trying to murder him.

But in the entire time that Lucious has been recovering from what happened in Vegas, Andre hasn't once spared one smidgen of guilt for his mother. In fact, he felt entitled to bark and bully her, until she set him straight. This isn't a case of Andre being unaware that his mother almost died too, it's a case of him knowing full well, and still not caring.

So, if Andre's eleventh hour warning to Lucious was only predicated on them giving him the company, what does that say about his feelings about Cookie, the woman who supported him unconditionally and unreservedly from the day she returned home?

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It had weighed heavily on him for a long time and that's why he confessed and took on all the blame, sparing Shine from any blame.

Andre only began feeling guilty recently. The majority of the past six months Andre has attempted to maintain his secret because of the pressure Shine was putting on him. Other than that it was business as usual for Andre.

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Don't forget that Andre saved his father by screaming for him not to get in the car at the last minute. That was luck but at least he made that attempt to save them otherwise he would have causally stayed silent and let them get into the car which would have killed them both.

And?

Are the rest of the family supposed to feel grateful that he decided to stave off his crazed murder attempt at the last minute? Are they supposed to award him a Purple Heart for doing so ONLY because he received something in return, and not out of loyalty or love? Are they obligated to absolve him of his actions even though he's once again put them in mortal peril because they were roadblocks to his ambition? No.

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Hakeem was never exiled when they found out he had made a devilish alliance with the evil Mrs. Dubois which put all the Lyon boys in peril. 

Hakeem had absolutely NO idea about Diana's schemes. None. The ONLY reason he even agreed to meet with her regularly was because she had possession of his daughter.

He even told Diana that the ONLY reason he didn't tell his mother about their meetings was because he was, rightfully, terrified of her potential response.

And when the rest of the Lyons found out about Hakeem's situation, they were plenty angry with him, but they prioritized Bella's custody hearing over their issues with him.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Dee

[Margohill]

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

Lucious shot Bunky because Bunky was attempting to extort him. He didn't decide to randomly murder someone, let alone someone he considered family, without provocation.

Truly speaking, if we have to go into the 'justifiable' or 'unjustifiable' wrongs of the Lyons, we won't have enough space on this board to do so. To close this matter, the point I'm trying to make is, Lucious is the parent and Andre is his son. He needs to figure out what went so terribly wrong with his boy that he would resort to this kind of action. IMO, I have plenty of reasons why Andre behaved this way and Lucious has a lot to be blamed for it. Just sayin.

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

Except Anika had absolutely NOTHING to do with Andre's attempted murder. He was, and still is, motivated by pure greed. 

Greed was a part of it, but after watching Empire, I'm sure all the fans will agree with me that there was a whole lot more that Lucious did to Andre that was more than greed that culminated to this. We watched and saw Andre being tortured by Lucious's vile words and treatment of him. 

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

Are the rest of the family supposed to feel grateful that he decided to stave off his crazed murder attempt at the last minute?

Nobody has to feel grateful for anything. That was tragedy that the family has to come to terms with. Infact they should be lucky that Andre's mental illness didn't result in him actually stabbing Lucious to death like his grandma did to Lucious's half-brother. Remember that memorable scene with a knife being plunged in someone's neck?

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

So, if Andre's eleventh hour warning to Lucious was only predicated on them giving him the company, what does that say about his feelings about Cookie, the woman who supported him unconditionally and unreservedly from the day she returned home?

Andre never plotted to kill Cookie. It was just a case of events taking a different turn than expected. Cookie was not expected to reconcile with Lucious and fly off into the sunset with him. That was never taken into consideration. I'm sure if Andre knew that in advance he would have planned differently...LOL!!! It was an unfortunate thing that Cookie happened to have been caught in it. Too bad.

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

Hakeem had absolutely NO idea about Diana's schemes. None. The ONLY reason he even agreed to meet with her regularly was because she had possession of his daughter.

Nonsense. Not confiding in Cookie was a disgrace on Hakeem's part. He knew Mrs. Dubois was an enemy. Not knowing her schemes was not an excuse. He should have confided in his mother and told her the risk he took in telling her because Mrs. Dubois had possession of his child. Cookie knows these games and would have played it safe to protect his daughter. I don't buy that excuse at all.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Margohill

[Dee]

8 hours ago, Margohill said:

He needs to figure out what went so terribly wrong with his boy that he would resort to this kind of action.

 

No, Lucious doesn't. Andre is a grown man who is responsible for his own actions.

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Greed was a part of it, but after watching Empire, I'm sure all the fans will agree with me that there was a whole lot more that Lucious did to Andre that was more than greed that culminated to this. We watched and saw Andre being tortured by Lucious's vile words and treatment of him. 

Except Andre explicitly decided to kill Lucious only AFTER he received karma for sabotaging/taunting Hakeem & Tiana. And it still doesn't make Andre's actions right or justifiable. Hence why the rest of the family were subsequently in their feelings about his behavior.

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Nobody has to feel grateful for anything. That was tragedy that the family has to come to terms with. Infact they should be lucky that Andre's mental illness didn't result in him actually stabbing Lucious to death like his grandma did to Lucious's half-brother. Remember that memorable scene with a knife being plunged in someone's neck?

Andre's behavior is not a "tragedy the family has to come to terms with."

As he himself told Cookie, he had plenty of opportunities to change, but he didn't want to. It's as simple as that.

He felt, and continues to feel, entitled to something and thus treats everyone who gets in his way as potential targets, including his own family.

The rest of the family owes Andre NOTHING. Other than his complicated relationship with Lucious, they've always been unbelievably supportive of him. The fact that he continues to treat them like trash is reprehensible.

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Andre never plotted to kill Cookie. It was just a case of events taking a different turn than expected. Cookie was not expected to reconcile with Lucious and fly off into the sunset with him. That was never taken into consideration. I'm sure if Andre knew that in advance he would have planned differently...LOL!!! It was an unfortunate thing that Cookie happened to have been caught in it. Too bad.

Cookie's potential death is chalked up as 'too bad?' That's simply inexcusable.

But then, as long as Andre gets what he wants it doesn't matter who ends up as collateral damage.

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Nonsense. Not confiding in Cookie was a disgrace on Hakeem's part. He knew Mrs. Dubois was an enemy. Not knowing her schemes was not an excuse. He should have confided in his mother and told her the risk he took in telling her because Mrs. Dubois had possession of his child. Cookie knows these games and would have played it safe to protect his daughter. I don't buy that excuse at all.

Except it's NOT nonsense. Hakeem, as the youngest child, has the most tenuous relationship to Cookie. They're still building trust, despite growing much closer since Cookie's release.

Hakeem not knowing Diana's schemes is an excuse. He was a parent protecting his own child, in the best way he knew how.

Also, Hakeem knows Cookie will, and has, take(n) a severe hardline with him when he acts up. So he was rightfully hesitant about her reaction.

And even if Hakeem had confided in his family about Bella's whereabouts, they wouldn't have been anymore successful at extricating her than he was. They had previously confronted the DuBois family en masse over Bella and left empty handed.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Dee

[Margohill]

10 minutes ago, Dee said:

No, Lucious doesn't. Andre is a grown man who is responsible for his own actions.

Except Andre's feelings didn't spring up when he became a grown man. They began when he was a kid and had to cover up for his father's criminal ways as a young child. This whole mess started when the poor boy was little and had to watch his mother go to jail. Lucious has to take responsibility for that. 

12 minutes ago, Dee said:

Except Andre explicitly decided to kill Lucious only AFTER he received karma for sabotaging/taunting Hakeem & Tiana

That to me was a build up of pent-up emotions. As I said earlier the final evil plot was a culmination of all the emotions he had suffered through the years. He was bound to explode at some point.

13 minutes ago, Dee said:

Andre's behavior is not a "tragedy the family has to come to terms with."

They have to understand why their brother/son could do something like that whether they like it or not. That's what a normal family should do. That's coming to terms with something

15 minutes ago, Dee said:

The rest of the family owes Andre NOTHING. Other than his complicated relationship with Lucious, they've always been unbelievably supportive of him. The fact that he continues to treat them like trash is reprehensible.

No one owes anyone anything, but as a family unit, they have to be supportive and deal with this as a family. Andre has mental illness. That also has to be taken into consideration if they have human feelings.

16 minutes ago, Dee said:

Cookie's potential death is chalked up as 'too bad?' That's simply inexcusable.

What I am supposed to say? What's done, is done. 

17 minutes ago, Dee said:

Except it's NOT nonsense. Hakeem, as the youngest child, has the most tenuous relationship to Cookie. They're still building trust, despite growing much closer since Cookie's release.

Meaning? Are you saying it was OK for Hakeem to trust Mrs. Dubois more than his own mother? That is simply ridiculous. In moments like that he should have trusted his mother more regardless. Look what ended up happening to his brothers. Was that worth trusting the enemy more?

[Dee]

8 hours ago, Margohill said:

Lucious has to take responsibility for that.

No Lucious doesn't. Andre is an adult. If he can't function as an adult without throwing destructive temper tantrums when he doesn't receive what he believes he's entitled to, then he needs intense therapy.

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That to me was a build up of pent-up emotions. As I said earlier the final evil plot was a culmination of all the emotions he had suffered through the years. He was bound to explode at some point.

He wasn't "bound to explode."

As Jamal told Andre, many of Lucious own family have had fantasies and/or opportunities to murder Lucious, but they haven't, because murder is not an acceptable recourse just because you don't like somebody.

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They have to understand why their brother/son could do something like that whether they like it or not. That's what a normal family should do. That's coming to terms with something

They aren't obligated to understand.

Besides Cookie, they already know. And they forgave him, only for him to continue betraying them.

So it's not them who needs to come to terms with Andre's behavior, it's Andre who needs to grow up.

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No one owes anyone anything, but as a family unit, they have to be supportive and deal with this as a family. Andre has mental illness. That also has to be taken into consideration if they have human feelings.

Suffering from mental illness is not an excuse for murder. The two are not interchangeable.

Andre has refused to accept responsibility for the maintenance of his own mental health for years. And again, besides Lucious, the rest of the family has never been anything less than supportive of Andre's condition. They've bent over backwards to accommodate his needs and avoid stigmatizing him.

What they can't be, and shouldn't be, responsible for is Andre's inferiority complex. Which is the true motivator behind all of his current actions. That's his burden to bear, and his alone.

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What I am supposed to say? What's done, is done. 

And the rest of the family, Cookie included, is supposed to just be ok with that?

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Meaning? Are you saying it was OK for Hakeem to trust Mrs. Dubois more than his own mother? That is simply ridiculous. In moments like that he should have trusted his mother more regardless. Look what ended up happening to his brothers. Was that worth trusting the enemy more?

How is that ridiculous? He trusted Diana to gain access to his daughter. That was it.

He was acting as a dedicated parent. Just like when he was ready to flee to Cuba when he believed he might lose Bella again.

Blaming him for the rest of Diana's schemes makes no sense. He bears absolutely no responsibility for what happened to Jamal and Andre. That's solely on Anika and the DuBois clan.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Dee

[Margohill]

51 minutes ago, Dee said:

If he can't function as an adult without throwing destructive temper tantrums when he doesn't receive what he believes he's entitled to, then he needs intense therapy.

You can tell that to Lucious who grabbed the statue of Jesus in the hospital chapel and threatened Jesus not to dare take away Cookie form him.....LOL!! Who needs more therapy? As they say, 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." LOL!!!!

51 minutes ago, Dee said:

As Jamal told Andre, many of Lucious own family have had fantasies and/or opportunities to murder Lucious, but they haven't, because murder is not an acceptable recourse just because you don't like somebody.

Cookie almost smothered Lucious with a pillow at the end of S1. If Lucious hadn't started speaking in his sleep which scared Cookie away, who knows if she would have gone through with it? Murder is wrong but I refuse to judge Andre for reasons I have explained earlier.

51 minutes ago, Dee said:

They've bent over backwards to accommodate his needs and avoid stigmatizing him.

If they have, it was never shown on this show. All I have seen is Lucious belittling Andre because of his illness, sleeping with the woman who killed his baby and wife, taking him to a fake grave and lying that it was his grandmother's grave e.t.c. Where was he when Andre was first hospitalized after his initial breakdown? Where were they when his wife died? Where were they when his wife was pushed down the stairs and lost his first born? They were out partying and celebrating Bella's 1st birthday on the anniversary of his wife's death and no one even bothered to ask why he wasn't present at the festivities. If that's what you call bending over backwards to accommodate his needs, then that is absolutely laughable. 

51 minutes ago, Dee said:

What they can't, and shouldn't be, responsible for is Andre's inferiority complex.

Is that surprising with the way his father has consistently put him down because of his mental illness and refused to let him head the company despite the fact that he has all the skills and even better than his brothers to run that company? That's easy for anyone to understand.

51 minutes ago, Dee said:

Blaming him for the rest of Diana's schemes makes no sense. He bears absolutely no responsibility for what happened to Jamal and Andre

If you say so. But that's not how I see it. He hid vital information from his family. That was wrong.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Margohill

[Dee]

32 minutes ago, Margohill said:

You can tell that to Lucious who grabbed the statue of Jesus in the hospital chapel and threatened Jesus not to dare take away Cookie form him.....LOL!! Who needs more therapy? As they say, 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." LOL!!

Lucious is functional. Andre is not.

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Cookie almost smothered Lucious with a pillow at the end of S1. If Lucious hadn't started speaking in his sleep which scared Cookie away, who knows if she would have gone through with it? Murder is wrong but I refuse to judge Andre for reasons I have explained earlier.

Cookie tried to smother Lucious after just learning about him killing her cousin.

It was a rash decision made in the heat of the moment, not premeditated murder like Andre.

And she was temporarily exiled once her actions were revealed. Just like everyone else in her family.

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If they have, it was never shown on this show.

Except it was. Which is why I said, besides Lucious, instead of including him with the rest of the family's unrivaled support of Andre.

When Rhonda was recovering from her fall, the rest of the family, including Lucious, supported them. All of them were at the hospital, both during her initial admission and just prior to her release; and Anika even invited Rhonda to stay with her during she and Andre's subsequent issues.

Also the Lyons were celebrating Bella's birthday. It wasn't about Andre. It was about celebrating the baby's first birthday. Plus it was at that same party, that his mother personally apologized to him for accidentally forgetting the anniversary of Rhonda's death and proceeded to tell him he was loved and that the Lyons wouldn't be a family without him.

And again, it wasn't as if the Lyons purposefully forgot Rhonda's death, they were busy dealing with everything that was happening at the time.

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Is that surprising with the way his father has consistently put him down because of his mental illness and refused to let him head the company despite the fact that he has all the skills and even better than his brothers to run that company? That's easy for anyone to understand.

Andre isn't entitled to anything.

Lucious & Cookie don't owe Andre the company just because Andre is a hard worker. It doesn't work like that.

Plenty of worthy employees are passed over for promotions they rightfully deserve all the time, yet they don't resort to homicide to solve their problems.

And for all the many issues Lucious had with Andre's illness, he never abandoned his son. He may have been emotionally distant, but he cared for, trusted and rewarded Andre consistently.

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If you say so. But that's not how I see it. he hid vital information form his family. That was wrong.

And I do say.

Because the info was only vital to Bella's custody. Not to Jamal or Andre's respective situations.

So yes, the family had a right to be angry about what he said during those visits, and for not trusting them, but he admittedly had his reasons and bears no responsibility for Diana's subsequent actions.

 

However, since we've veered fairly off topic, it's best we agree to disagree and end this particular exchange. Have a blessed day.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Dee

[Margohill]

28 minutes ago, Dee said:

However, since we've veered fairly off topic, it's best we agree to disagree and end this particular exchange. Have a blessed day.

AMEN to that Dee. I have to admit, it's been fun. Enjoy your day. As for me, I have an editing assignment to finish. CHAO!!

[darkestboy]

Good episode. Loved Cookie's scenes with Lucious, Carol and Candace this week.

Now that they've set up Cookie's mother, I can't wait to see what happens when she finally appears on the show.

Jamal put his foot in it during that interview but he was great Becky and her scenes with J Pop were good.

I did like that Andre exposed Eddie's plans but I doubt the latter is done with just yet.

Good song from Hakeem and Tiana this week, 8/10

[crowceilidh]

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Becky's boyfriend is a really great guy. When he showed up at the clinic to support her, I was moved and hoped she would change her mind about the abortion. I hope she does.

I hope she doesn't because it's so cliche that they've set it up this way.  You could see her reevaluate his love for her, so I suspect she will not follow through with the abortion, but it is just so so so so cliche.  As bad as Reese and Carter admitting their love for one another on the last episode Taraji was in, so that I knew she was going to be killed by the end of epi.  Lazy and cowardly writing.

The first person I thought of to play Cookie's mum is probably too old, but Nichelle Nichols, with her musical background and outstandingly sculptured face, just popped into my head.  

[jhlipton]

On 4/11/2018 at 7:29 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Lucious' prayer managed to be both hilarious and heartfelt.

I loved it, but my Baptist wife hated it.

On 4/12/2018 at 11:49 AM, tennisgurl said:

I loved Tiana and Hakeems duet.

"Big Shoes" is my favorite song in a long time!

On 4/12/2018 at 6:27 PM, Biggie B said:

I don't believe for a minute that Becky will go through with the abortion. I think she will change her mind at the last second. If that's what Becky wants, she should be able to go through with it. But it's such a loaded issue that I just don't see the show going there, unfortunately.

On 4/12/2018 at 9:28 PM, journalism16 said:

I truly hope Becky changes her mind about the abortion.

Not me.  I can count on one hand the number of TV characters who have had an abortion.  There's always a "lasy minute change of heart", as if an abortion is something done on a whim.  It's something most women have a very difficult struggle with, and Becky will have had a harder time than most.  And Empire has never hesitated to go after difficult subjects. 

4 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

I hope she doesn't because it's so cliche that they've set it up this way.  You could see her reevaluate his love for her, so I suspect she will not follow through with the abortion, but it is just so so so so cliche.

Yes, this.  The one thing that hasn't been cliche is J Poppa's support for her decision.  All too often, the men have the final say, not th woman.