S07.E04: Episode 4

[OnceSane]

Quote

Sister Julienne helps a woman from Pakistan who is unable to have children, but who has found to her shock that her husband is bringing a second wife into their home, who is already eight months pregnant. Trixie hits the bottle following her break-up with Christopher, Dr Turner tries to persuade Sister Monica Joan to admit that her eyesight is failing, and Lucille helps a woman with a compulsion to eat coal.

[OnceSane]

Oof.  The second wife?  I dare my husband to come home with another wife.  I'll have two bodies to bury in the morning.  I wonder if the first wife's family agreed so that the husband could have a child.  And it's messed up that hubby didn't say a word to his wife until the 15 year-old showed up pregnant with a ring.  A little forewarning would have been nice!

I was worried about the woman who ate coal, I thought it wasn't going to be "just" a pregnancy craving.  And I wondered what they'd do for that back then, if anything.

Oh Trixie!  I knew she was lying to Phyllis, both about attending meetings and returning to them.  This was less devastating than last week's episode, but I think it's because last week I didn't know how long people wouldn't notice how far she'd gone.  Loved Phyllis being her support and even involving Christopher.  But my favorite part was Trixie apologizing to Phyllis for putting her in the middle of Trixie's issues and lying to Sister Julienne.  I hope Trixie is back before the end of the season or at least by the Christmas episode.

[Barlowe]

5 hours ago, OnceSane said:

Oof.  The second wife?  I dare my husband to come home with another wife.  I'll have two bodies to bury in the morning.  I wonder if the first wife's family agreed so that the husband could have a child.  And it's messed up that hubby didn't say a word to his wife until the 15 year-old showed up pregnant with a ring.  A little forewarning would have been nice!

I was worried about the woman who ate coal, I thought it wasn't going to be "just" a pregnancy craving.  And I wondered what they'd do for that back then, if anything.

Oh Trixie!  I knew she was lying to Phyllis, both about attending meetings and returning to them.  This was less devastating than last week's episode, but I think it's because last week I didn't know how long people wouldn't notice how far she'd gone.  Loved Phyllis being her support and even involving Christopher.  But my favorite part was Trixie apologizing to Phyllis for putting her in the middle of Trixie's issues and lying to Sister Julienne.  I hope Trixie is back before the end of the season or at least by the Christmas episode.

The way I interpreted it, they were married young and then when it became clear that the wife was infertile , both families decided to marry the husband off to the wife's cousin so they could have a child that was of blood relation. 

It's messed up that he didn't say anything but he was likely forced to go through with everything and was just hoping it didn't stick.

The woman who ate coal should've had some complications but I think that story was just a red herring so we could have Trixie fully relapse. I remember seeing a docu-series episode ( My Starnge Addiction) where a woman had miscarried in the past and the entire time she'd been drinking nail polish.

I definitely think Trixie will be back by the time the Christmas episode films. Helen delivered a premature baby and she's had a even longer time to recover than she would've originally so she'll likely be able to at least to do  cameo.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Lilacly

[MissLucas]

Yeah, show you lost me with this one. That was one bridge too many to cross. Way too much sugar-coating for a deeply messed-up situation. Sister Julienne and Doctor Turner did their best to sell this to Mumtaz (and the audience) as just another take on the modern (anachronistic) patchwork family. I might have bought this storyline had Mumtaz herself arranged the marriage after talking it through with her husband, had selected a cousin of age who consented to the arrangement - and then they had to convince the shocked Westerners that they were following their tradition and culture and that this model can work too.  Still sugar-coating but with less unsettling elements.

Sadly that was not the story presented:  I saw a 15 year old married off against her will, statutory rape (and no indication that the husband would not sleep with her again), a lying husband who talked about love but did not show the slightest concern for the feelings of his two wives, and a woman who was forced into accepting her husband sleeping with a child and then more or less being emotionally blackmailed to act as surrogate mother to both the second wife and the baby. Meanwhile the husband gets a pat on the shoulder and a cigar for having finally produced a son. Nope, nopity, nope.

Sister Monica Joan's plot on the other hand was great and since we've seen her and Fred having a special bond before I did not begrudge Fred handing out a theological argument that Sister Julienne should have pulled at the first signs of resistance.

Glad Trixie finally gets some help and then I hope they manage to finally give her some happiness.

[Barlowe]

54 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Yeah, show you lost me with this one. That was one bridge too many to cross. Way too much sugar-coating for a deeply messed-up situation. Sister Julienne and Doctor Turner did their best to sell this to Mumtaz (and the audience) as just another take on the modern (anachronistic) patchwork family. I might have bought this storyline had Mumtaz herself arranged the marriage after talking it through with her husband, had selected a cousin of age who consented to the arrangement - and then they had to convince the shocked Westerners that they were following their tradition and culture and that this model can work too.  Still sugar-coating but with less unsettling elements.

Sadly that was not the story presented:  I saw a 15 year old married off against her will, statutory rape (and no indication that the husband would not sleep with her again), a lying husband who talked about love but did not show the slightest concern for the feelings of his two wives, and a woman who was forced into accepting her husband sleeping with a child and then more or less being emotionally blackmailed to act as surrogate mother to both the second wife and the baby. Meanwhile the husband gets a pat on the shoulder and a cigar for having finally produced a son. Nope, nopity, nope.

Sister Monica Joan's plot on the other hand was great and since we've seen her and Fred having a special bond before I did not begrudge Fred handing out a theological argument that Sister Julienne should have pulled at the first signs of resistance.

Glad Trixie finally gets some help and then I hope they manage to finally give her some happiness.

It's like that wife getting a vaginal circumcision and not fighting her family on having her sister endure the procedure but eventually making sure her child wouldn't have to. There's not a whole lot you can do in those situations when its a common cultural practice and especially back in the 60's and all of this happened in a foreign country. Parents and elders have a lot of power in those communities and often the child gets no say in the matter.  They arrange your future marriage when you are children and i've even heard of families checking the bedsheets for blood marks to check if you've "consummated the marriage".  As Dr Turner said,  it was legal in their country to have many wives and child marriages still happen even to this day although more and more heroic people are putting a stop to it.   I was even watching a Saudi Arabian film a year ago  where one of the main character was an adult woman who had been adopted as a baby as the mother had fertility problems  at the time. After taking having modern treatments  the mother was able to conceive and tried to force the girl to marry her uncle so she would still remain in the family since she wasn't blood related.

The story wasn't supposed to be sugarcoated but the point was that outside forces had forced all three of them into unfortunate, horrific position and they had find some way to move on.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Lilacly

[MissLucas]

The FGM episode had a lot more nuance than this one. And in the end it still managed to take a stand. I consider it one of the best show's best episodes ever. This one here bailed on all the issues it raised. And by issues I don't mean arranged marriages or polygamy per se (because that's another huge discussion)  - but it brought up problematic aspects of both traditions (lack of consent being the biggest one) and then never really addressed them.

[misgabi13]

On 13/02/2018 at 10:43 AM, Lilacly said:

The woman who ate coal should've had some complications but I think that story was just a red herring so we could have Trixie fully relapse. I remember seeing a docu-series episode ( My Starnge Addiction) where a woman had miscarried in the past and the entire time she'd been drinking nail polish.

I was totally convinced, after the story of the strawberry craving and the red birthmark on the child's face, that the woman eating coal would have a black baby!

Clearly, I have a warped mind!

[Ceindreadh]

I loved the scene where Sister Monica Joan told Sister Julienne that she’d have the surgery. Just to watch the emotions play out on Julienne’s face with tiny changes in her expression. The delight that MJ had changed her mund, the slight wariness as she was told why and then just the “what just happened here?” after MJ had left the room. 

So well done. 

[kieyra]

Is it just me, or does the actress playing Trixie look less pregnant in this episode than in earlier episodes this season? It had me wondering if they shot her scenes (or some whole episodes) out of order. 

[Anothermi]

On 2/22/2018 at 7:59 AM, kieyra said:

Is it just me, or does the actress playing Trixie look less pregnant in this episode than in earlier episodes this season? It had me wondering if they shot her scenes (or some whole episodes) out of order. 

I was wondering why they had given up "hiding" the pregnancy. Perhaps the lack of shooting continuity explains that, but I kept thinking that they just decided that loyal viewers would know Helen was pregnant and wave away her clear weight gain the way they (we) do other oddities.

[jschoolgirl]

In some scenes Trixie looked very pregnant, and in others, not at all pregnant. So I thought they shot out of order.

This was the first week I noticed the pregnancy.

[peggy06]

This episode kind of bored me. First, because I'm not a big fan of Sister Monica Joan, so a plotline for her isn't usually a high point for me. A little SMJ goes a long was in my book, and this plot was totally predictable.  

Second, we all knew Trixie was going to leave, so it was a matter of waiting for the shoe to drop. I'm thinking we missed a scene between her and Sister Julienne, or else a scene of her messing up, because Sister Julienne was ready to put the hammer down without my having seen any reason why during the episode. So either I fell asleep, or they cut something.  

Despite some excellent acting by the actress playing Mumtaz, that plotline somehow seemed a retread of the twins who were married to the same man. And, again, it was wholly predictable. 

The other baby storyline (mother with pica) seemed like just a way for Phyllis to find out that Trixie was drinking again. And the scenes with Christopher simply left me cold as usual. 

At least there were two adorable babies. Hoping for more interesting plots next time around, though.

[bourbon]

Quote

Yeah, show you lost me with this one. That was one bridge too many to cross. Way too much sugar-coating for a deeply messed-up situation. Sister Julienne and Doctor Turner did their best to sell this to Mumtaz (and the audience) as just another take on the modern (anachronistic) patchwork family. I might have bought this storyline had Mumtaz herself arranged the marriage after talking it through with her husband, had selected a cousin of age who consented to the arrangement - and then they had to convince the shocked Westerners that they were following their tradition and culture and that this model can work too.  Still sugar-coating but with less unsettling elements.

Sadly that was not the story presented:  I saw a 15 year old married off against her will, statutory rape (and no indication that the husband would not sleep with her again), a lying husband who talked about love but did not show the slightest concern for the feelings of his two wives, and a woman who was forced into accepting her husband sleeping with a child and then more or less being emotionally blackmailed to act as surrogate mother to both the second wife and the baby. Meanwhile the husband gets a pat on the shoulder and a cigar for having finally produced a son. Nope, nopity, nope.

 

So much of this. The whole thing was so icky to me. I'm sorry, but that is statutory rape, and all the "cultural norms" in the world don't make it right. If it's wrong for a Western girl, it's wrong for every girl. Ick ick ick, and as you said no indication the husband would not sleep with her again. So Mr. Gani gets to disregard the feelings of his wife, sleep with a child, and suddenly Mrs. Gani is the selfish one who gets emotionally blackmailed by Dr. Turner to just suck it up and move on because a baby. I hated this storyline so much. There is no amount of warm Vanessa Redgrave narration and soft-focus lighting that makes me feel good about the end of that storyline. 

[jschoolgirl]

33 minutes ago, peggy06 said:

This episode kind of bored me.

It seemed long, and I found myself looking at the clock several times -- something I never do with this show! It usually goes by way too fast for me!

[ombelico]

I don't know what the UK laws would have been at the time, so perhaps someone can enlighten me. It's one thing for bigamy (and child marriage, for that matter) to have been commonplace in Pakistan, but wasn't it illegal in the UK by that time? Wouldn't there have been any legal ramifications for Mr. Gani to have brought the pregnant child bride to the UK? Would the doctors/nurses have been under legal requirement to report the young age of the mother to authorities? It seemed like the show just wanted to focus on the first Mrs. Gani making lemonade out of some seriously sour lemons, but glossed over all the other associated issues of the storyline. 

I find Sister Monica Joan completely tiresome. But I'm glad to see that Barbara and Tom seem to return in the next episode since I've always liked them.

[Ohwell]

I was wondering about the UK laws as well.  This child bride story was very disturbing. 

Time to send Sister Monica Joan to the farm....errr....the Mother House.

[Kohola3]

From Wikipedia:  Polygamy in the United Kingdom. ... Polygamous marriages legally performed in another country where the law allows it are legally recognized for the purposes of welfare benefits, but not for pension, immigration or citizenship purposes.

The marriage was not performed in England which has laws against bigamy.  It was performed in Pakistan and the young wife brought to England.  The whole child bride has a major "ick" factor for we Westerners but it is very common in the Middle East even today.  

[anna0852]

Well based on the definition above Mr. Gani would have had trouble bringing Paveen into the country. The citation said that polygamous marriages were not recognized for immigration or citizenship purposes. And a big old pox on Dr. Turner for pressuring the first mrs. Gani to take on this teenage mother and her child. Mrs. Gani has been betrayed and one of the most cruel ways possible by her husband and now she is being told that she simply has to suck it up.

[howiveaddict]

I was hoping the Pakistani woman would divorce her husband.

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, peggy06 said:

This episode kind of bored me. First, because I'm not a big fan of Sister Monica Joan, so a plotline for her isn't usually a high point for me. A little SMJ goes a long was in my book, and this plot was totally predictable.  

Oh good, I'm not the only one who's not a fan of Sister Monica Joan.  I find her and her storyline dreadfully tiresome.  I get it.  The woman is old, and she has dementia.  That was fine for the first year or two or three of the show, but we're now in Season 7, and this has been SMJ's ENTIRE storyline for the length of the series.  It's like watching paint dry  SJM might have been more tolerable to me if we had actually seen her do work as a midwife for an entire season or two, and THEN have begun her decline.  We've been told that she used to work as a midwife back in the day, but it's difficult for me to buy that because SMJ has always been presented as an infirm, impaired woman in constant need of care and attention.  Playing that out for seven years is boring television, in my opinion.

Love the stuff with Phyllis, Trixie, and Christopher.  I wish we'd go back to Alexandra liking Trixie and no drama with Christopher's ex.  The story of the Pakistani family was meh.  The actress who played the first wife did a terrific job, in my opinion, but the other two main actors (husband and young wife) were rather forgettable.

[Bonzie]

Poor Mrs. Gani. Bad enough that she has to accept a second wife, but said wife had the son she could never have. Ugh.

I'm really disappointed with the Christopher-Trixie arc. I know the actress had to take leave, but they made a good couple and it was silly as heck to expect Christopher to go back to his wife. I wish Trixie would stop with that nonsense.

[NoThyme]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

 

The marriage was not performed in England which has laws against bigamy.  It was performed in Pakistan and the young wife brought to England.  The whole child bride has a major "ick" factor for we Westerners but it is very common in the Middle East even today.  

Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin in 1957. When he went on tour in England people were so upset when they found out his wife's age they boycotted. The shows were cancelled. Sadly, there are many states in the US that do not have a minimum age for marriage and sadly child marriages, with young brides to older men,  continue in our own country.

[izabella]

Wow, the Pakistani family's story dd not sit well with me!  It was  heartbreaking for so many reasons.   The actress playing Mumtaz did a wonderful job, but I was so angry for her and for the teen cousin forced into marriage and pregnancy against her will.  But then, this show often makes me angry how women are treated when it comes to babies, roles, expectations, limitations....we've come so far, yet there is so far to go.

I was curious about child marriages in the United States, and Wikipedia tells me it's real and still happening.  Mostly to girls, and they mostly marry older men (rather than other young teens).  Apparently, more than 167,000 child marriages occurred in the US between 2000 and 2010.  And 13 year olds are allowed to marry in New Hampshire, while other states effectively have no minimum age, apparently.  I'm too horrified now to even attempt to look up polygamy in the US. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States

I'm going to miss Trixie, but, on the other hand, I don't like what they've done with her and Christopher.  I always feel sad for Trixie because she hasn't found the love relationship she has been wanting to have in her life for a long time. 

I loved Fred with Sister MJ.  She's an odd duck, but he was brilliant with her.

[Sew Sumi]

You can legally marry a minor in every state even today, although I'm sure that parental consent is required in the vast majority of cases. The polygamy? Now that's another kettle of fish altogether. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[izabella]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

Well based on the definition above Mr. Gani would have had trouble bringing Paveen into the country. The citation said that polygamous marriages were not recognized for immigration or citizenship purposes.

Since she was his wife's cousin, could he have been able to bring her over as a relative?

[LittleIggy]

2 hours ago, ombelico said:

I don't know what the UK laws would have been at the time, so perhaps someone can enlighten me. It's one thing for bigamy (and child marriage, for that matter) to have been commonplace in Pakistan, but wasn't it illegal in the UK by that time? Wouldn't there have been any legal ramifications for Mr. Gani to have brought the pregnant child bride to the UK? Would the doctors/nurses have been under legal requirement to report the young age of the mother to authorities? It seemed like the show just wanted to focus on the first Mrs. Gani making lemonade out of some seriously sour lemons, but glossed over all the other associated issues of the storyline. 

 

Really. I’m pretty sure polygamy would be illegal in the UK.

[GaT]

So far, this is a very depressing season, there aren't any happy endings.

[bunnyblue]

Rant incoming:

"I feel sick." Yup, me too, Mrs. Gani. Over the years, CTM has tackled many disturbing issues, but I can honestly say few have made me as uncomfortable, angry, and disgusted like tonight's child bride story. I don't care how sympathetic the show tried to portray him or that Mrs. Gani said that he was a good & gentle man (barf!), I could not look past the fact that Mr. Gani was a 30-something year old man who willingly f*cked his wife's 15 year old cousin just so he could sire a son. Every time Mr. Gani was onscreen I wanted to punch him in the face. And the nerve of him, blaming his mother for forcing the child bride on him! Grow a pair, you old dirty bastard. Yeah, yeah, I know it's the way things are done "back home", but I really wanted someone to point out to him that he lives in England where that shit is against the law, and call the cops on him. Then Mrs. Gani could run the sewing business on her own and live a fabulous life as a wealthy single woman. But nope, not only will she have to accept her husband's second wife and her son (and the other kids she will undoubtedly birth), and listen as her husband rapes the child bride, but will also have to play mother to the child bride and her baby. Such a heartwarming storyline! Also, why the hell did they have Sister Winifred beaming as she watched the dysfunctional family bond? I swear, Valerie was the only person who had an appropriate reaction to a 35 year old man marrying & impregnating his wife's 15 year old cousin.  This was almost as awful as last season's FGM episode, except I actually sympathized with Mrs. Gani, unlike Natifa. 

3 hours ago, ombelico said:

I find Sister Monica Joan completely tiresome.

 

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Time to send Sister Monica Joan to the farm....errr....the Mother House.

Hear, hear! Dementia is terrible, I know, but I'm pretty much done with any and all Sister Monica Joan plots. It always the same: she can't do something or refuses to do something, she gets frustrated and acts up, she cries and cries and cries, Sister Julienne sympathizes and comes with up a solution, Sister MJ relents, and all is right by episode's end. Until the next time Sister MJ needs screentime, then it's wash, rinse, repeat. I thought I read that the actress wanted to retire? Maybe they should shuffle Sister MJ into the background and bring on some new nuns who can contribute some fresh stories to the show.

And what was up with the woman eating coal?! I found this episode so unpleasant that I couldn't really be bothered to pay attention as to why she was eating it or why she stopped eating it once the baby was born (I think?). 

Did Christopher reunite with his horrid ex-wife? Because last episode Trixie told him to go back to his "wife", and tonight Phyllis said he is "effectively married". If he did indeed go back to her, it was incredibly cruel to seek Trixie out knowing how vulnerable she's been. I know he was being supportive and a friend but kissing Trixie on the cheek and giving her moon eyes makes him seem like an insensitive cad. I really hope he didn't reunite with his "wife" and once Helen George returns from maternity leave, Trixie and Christopher can make a go of their relationship. Before the show ends, I want Trixie to find long lasting happiness with a decent man. And I really do think Christopher is a good man, who happens to be in a tough spot at the moment.

[JudyObscure]

I hate the, "We must remember it's their culture," excuse.  All any woman has to do is remember how she would have felt at 15, forced to have sex with an old man of 35.  Some cultures throw virgins in the river to appease the crocodile gods but we don't have to smile at it.  I'm beginning to think that the culture of CTM is whatever is best for baby rules.  Nah.  Other humans matter, too.  The poor cheated on older wife is now not only going to have to listen to her husband have sex with the younger wife, she's going to go through a second heart wrenching betrayal when the young wife wants her baby back  after the older one has bonded with him.

I was okay with the sister Monica Joan story until, just after Fred had managed to talk her into the surgery, she goes to Sister Julienne and say she 's decided to have the surgery and be brave like the woman astronaut ... and sister Julienne says , "Your cataract surgery is nothing like that woman going into space!"  What the heck?  Way to slap down all Fred's hard work.  It's a wonder Sister Monica Joan didn't say, "Oh right.  Nevermind."  This writing is going down hill every week.

[Kohola3]

I may be in the minority but I have always hated the Christopher and Trixie pairing. I just find him very smarmy and I don't think they have much chemistry.  And the whole "go back to your bitch wife for the sake of the kid" is too far-fetched for me.  But I guess they needed a reason to get rid of Helen for her confinement (do they call it that these days?) so they used this story line as the excuse.  I will miss Trixie.

As for the coal eater, I think that CTM strives to do education on peculiarities of pregnancy and pica is not uncommon.  And just a fun fact:  in the US we pronounce it pie-ka rather than pee-ka.  It's not just confined to pregnancy, however, it's also a psychological disorder.

Older men marrying teens is horrible in all ways and I would never approve or condone it.  But family ties and traditions are very, very strong in third world countries to this day.  Arranged marriages continue to be the norm with the parents selecting the husband and the couple never meeting until the wedding day. I worked with several women from India and Pakistan who had arranged marriages.  All were independent intelligent women working in the IT industry.  They talk about it openly and all deferred to their parents knowing that they were the best judge of the type and temperament of the man to whom they should be wed.  Granted none were child brides nor polygamous.  But all said that they entered the marriage willingly and knew that they would have to work at making a life together.  All eventually (not instantly by any means) came to love their husbands on some level.  But in all cases, children were a key part of the equation as well.  Luckily, they all managed to have at least one child.  In the case of the Ganis, the inability of Mumtaz to have children was the issue with the family back in Pakistan.  

With all that said, Mr. Gani was a jerk to have withheld the second marriage from his wife.  She should have kicked him to the curb for that.  But women are supposed to suck it up and accept what the husband wants in a male dominated society.

Polygamy continues in the US with children married to old men in "spiritual" marriages (e.g. the Warren Jeffs clan).  And as stated by several others, many states allow children (I think of any young teens as children) to marry men of any age as long as the parents consent.  And as long as old men make the laws, that's not going to change.

[peggy06]

23 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I was okay with the sister Monica Joan story until, just after Fred had managed to talk her into the surgery, she goes to Sister Julienne and say she 's decided to have the surgery and be brave like the woman astronaut ... and sister Julienne says , "Your cataract surgery is nothing like that woman going into space!"  What the heck?  Way to slap down all Fred's hard work.  It's a wonder Sister Monica Joan didn't say, "Oh right.  Nevermind."  This writing is going down hill every week.

That was so strange. The wise and sensitive Sister Julienne we know would have nodded and smiled and been grateful that Sister Monica Joan was seeing it in that light.

[Kohola3]

1 minute ago, peggy06 said:

The wise and sensitive Sister Julienne we know would have nodded and smiled and been grateful that Sister Monica Joan was seeing it in that light.

I think even the wise and sensitive Sister Julienne has a limit to some of the nonsense.  Although an eye roll would have been less confrontational.

[MissLucas]

I think the show did definitely bite more off than it was able to chew with this episode. First there's the unclear legal situation - the above quote about the legality of polygamy dates to 1973 (when laws were adapted due to an immigration-related increase of the practice). I have not been able to figure out how it was handled before that time.  The next big issue - the age of consent - was and still is 16. Doctor Turner himself pointed out that Parveen was below the legal of marriage yet decided that this was none of his business. Which may be true - confidentiality and all that. But he also mentions that Parveen's youth is problematic with regards to her pregnancy.  That's issue number three - and this time this should be in the wheelhouse of midwives and doctors. Yet after her delivery the subject is never brought up again. 

As for comparisons with the FGM episode: there the show made room for the argument how difficult it can be to deal with another culture's traditions and that you can't simply ignore how those traditions are deeply rooted and provide a sense of identity. But it also made clear that not every tradition is worth clinging on to. Natifa was not able to protect her sister but given time she was able to move away from a tradition that endangered the health and life of women and in the coda we were told that her daughter was not cut. In this episode we have a woman who was able to move away from cultural norms and traditions that deemed her pretty much worthless because she had not been able to conceive and bear a son (and no amount of cultural relativism is ever going to convince me that that sort of thinking is worth being kept alive) and by the end of the episode she was forced back into that very mindset.  And let's not forget that nobody ever bothered to ask Parveen about her wishes.

That nobody ever told Mr Ganit how shitty/criminal his behavior was, that the situation was implicitly allowed to go on, that the potential toxicity of the power dynamics between 'old' and 'barren' first wife and young and fertile second wife was completely ignored were several additional layers of galling sugar-coating.

And as mentioned above: it's possible to accept and respect traditions like polygamy and arranged marriages and still take umbrage with this episode.

[doodlebug]

22 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I think the show did definitely bite more off than it was able to chew with this episode. First there's the unclear legal situation - the above quote about the legality of polygamy dates to 1973 (when laws were adapted due to an immigration-related increase of the practice). I have not been able to figure out how it was handled before that time.  The next big issue - the age of consent - was and still is 16. Doctor Turner himself pointed out that Parveen was below the legal of marriage yet decided that this was none of his business. Which may be true - confidentiality and all that. But he also mentions that Parveen's youth is problematic with regards to her pregnancy.  That's issue number three - and this time this should be in the wheelhouse of midwives and doctors. Yet after her delivery the subject is never brought up again. 

As for comparisons with the FGM episode: there the show made room for the argument how difficult it can be to deal with another culture's traditions and that you can't simply ignore how those traditions are deeply rooted and provide a sense of identity. But it also made clear that not every tradition is worth clinging on to. Natifa was not able to protect her sister but given time she was able to move away from a tradition that endangered the health and life of women and in the coda we were told that her daughter was not cut. In this episode we have a woman who was able to move away from cultural norms and traditions that deemed her pretty much worthless because she had not been able to conceive and bear a son (and no amount of cultural relativism is ever going to convince me that that sort of thinking is worth being kept alive) and by the end of the episode she was forced back into that very mindset.  And let's not forget that nobody ever bothered to ask Parveen about her wishes.

That nobody ever told Mr Ganit how shitty/criminal his behavior was, that the situation was implicitly allowed to go on, that the potential toxicity of the power dynamics between 'old' and 'barren' first wife and young and fertile second wife was completely ignored were several additional layers of galling sugar-coating.

And as mentioned above: it's possible to accept and respect traditions like polygamy and arranged marriages and still take umbrage with this episode.

I agree, the acceptance by the nuns and medical professionals of the situation was completely unrealistic.  I don't think they needed to call the cops, but, even if they're tolerant of other cultures, I don't think it is possible that none of them would've pointed out the obvious problems with the situation.  First and foremost, NONE of the principals was happy with the arrangement.  Even Mumtaz' husband said he didn't want to marry the cousin, he was coerced by the family.  How about someone, very kindly pointing out that, while they couldn't change what had happened and surely no one wished ill for an innocent baby (and a just as innocent teen), their families were now thousands of miles away and they were living in England where they had the opportunity to make a good life for all of them without interference from the family? First, the husband agrees that he will no longer act as Parveen's husband, instead taking the role of supportive family member.  Second, Parveen now has marvelous opportunities open to her that were not available to her in Pakistan.  She needs to learn English and she needs an education.  She's probably illiterate, but look how well Mumtaz has done.  Why not use this somewhat tragic situation as a chance to help her?  They've got the means, treat her as a valued family member and give her the life she deserves.  Mumtaz seems to have adapted quite well to Western life and she and her husband should be rightfully proud of all that they've accomplished.  They can surely afford to help raise the baby while emancipating Parveen from the burden of their cultural traditions.  

[Ohwell]

I wonder what the husband would have done if the child bride had borne a girl?  Kicked her out of the house?  Actually, I was hoping that the older wife would take her young cousin and the baby and leave that husband.  I really hated how everyone seemed to treat him with respect.  

Just had to add:  "Culture," my ass.  I'm still fuming and it's just a show, lol.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Ohwell

[Kohola3]

16 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I don't think they needed to call the cops, but, even if they're tolerant of other cultures, I don't think it is possible that none of them would've pointed out the obvious problems with the situation.

Possibly, but what would it change?  It was a legal marriage in Pakistan so it would stand in England, I would imagine.  If the cops were called would there be anything they could do?  Arrest Mr. Gani?  Send Parveen back to Pakistan? 

If Mr. and Mrs. Gani were to act as if Parveen were a daughter and raise her as such, that would be a lovely outcome.  But I don't honestly think that one doctor for the entire East End and overworked nurses could take on social issues as well.  Perhaps if social services were involved but once the kid is born, the medical stuff is done.

[anna0852]

I was really hoping that Christopher would indignantly tell Nurse Crane that he was not 'effectively married'. He is most declaratively divorced and can get involved with whomever he chooses.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

The next big issue - the age of consent - was and still is 16. Doctor Turner himself pointed out that Parveen was below the legal of marriage yet decided that this was none of his business. Which may be true - confidentiality and all that. But he also mentions that Parveen's youth is problematic with regards to her pregnancy.  That's issue number three - and this time this should be in the wheelhouse of midwives and doctors. Yet after her delivery the subject is never brought up again. 

I'm sure Parveen is nowhere near being the first teen pregnancy they've seen, nor their first teen patient was forced into sex and pregnancy by an older man. 

24 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

I was really hoping that Christopher would indignantly tell Nurse Crane that he was not 'effectively married'. He is most declaratively divorced and can get involved with whomever he chooses.

I really don't understand why they keep making this point.  I know divorce was more taboo back then, but did they really consider a divorced person to still be "effectively married"?

Edited April 9, 2018 by izabella

[jschoolgirl]

7 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

And what was up with the woman eating coal?

Pica in pregnancy is a real thing. Pregnant women get seemingly irrational but real cravings for non-food items. 

[Ohwell]

Regarding pica:  I remember as a kid, my aunt and some of her friends used to eat starch while they watched their soap operas on tv.

[MissLucas]

10 minutes ago, izabella said:

I'm sure Parveen is nowhere near being the first teen pregnancy they've seen, nor their first teen patient was forced into sex and pregnancy by an older man. 

 

Of course she wasn't - I can remember several cases. But none where the teen was simply sent back to await her next pregnancy since everybody was able to remember the age of consent. But since they were willing to accept Praveen as married woman they should have at least made sure she would not get immediately pregnant again - birth control was available for married women.

Edited April 9, 2018 by MissLucas

[SunnyBeBe]

8 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Rant incoming:

"I feel sick." Yup, me too, Mrs. Gani. Over the years, CTM has tackled many disturbing issues, but I can honestly say few have made me as uncomfortable, angry, and disgusted like tonight's child bride story. I don't care how sympathetic the show tried to portray him or that Mrs. Gani said that he was a good & gentle man (barf!), I could not look past the fact that Mr. Gani was a 30-something year old man who willingly f*cked his wife's 15 year old cousin just so he could sire a son. Every time Mr. Gani was onscreen I wanted to punch him in the face. And the nerve of him, blaming his mother for forcing the child bride on him! Grow a pair, you old dirty bastard. Yeah, yeah, I know it's the way things are done "back home", but I really wanted someone to point out to him that he lives in England where that shit is against the law, and call the cops on him. Then Mrs. Gani could run the sewing business on her own and live a fabulous life as a wealthy single woman. But nope, not only will she have to accept her husband's second wife and her son (and the other kids she will undoubtedly birth), and listen as her husband rapes the child bride, but will also have to play mother to the child bride and her baby. Such a heartwarming storyline! Also, why the hell did they have Sister Winifred beaming as she watched the dysfunctional family bond? I swear, Valerie was the only person who had an appropriate reaction to a 35 year old man marrying & impregnating his wife's 15 year old cousin.  This was almost as awful as last season's FGM episode, except I actually sympathized with Mrs. Gani, unlike Natifa. 

 

Hear, hear! Dementia is terrible, I know, but I'm pretty much done with any and all Sister Monica Joan plots. It always the same: she can't do something or refuses to do something, she gets frustrated and acts up, she cries and cries and cries, Sister Julienne sympathizes and comes with up a solution, Sister MJ relents, and all is right by episode's end. Until the next time Sister MJ needs screentime, then it's wash, rinse, repeat. I thought I read that the actress wanted to retire? Maybe they should shuffle Sister MJ into the background and bring on some new nuns who can contribute some fresh stories to the show.

And what was up with the woman eating coal?! I found this episode so unpleasant that I couldn't really be bothered to pay attention as to why she was eating it or why she stopped eating it once the baby was born (I think?). 

Did Christopher reunite with his horrid ex-wife? Because last episode Trixie told him to go back to his "wife", and tonight Phyllis said he is "effectively married". If he did indeed go back to her, it was incredibly cruel to seek Trixie out knowing how vulnerable she's been. I know he was being supportive and a friend but kissing Trixie on the cheek and giving her moon eyes makes him seem like an insensitive cad. I really hope he didn't reunite with his "wife" and once Helen George returns from maternity leave, Trixie and Christopher can make a go of their relationship. Before the show ends, I want Trixie to find long lasting happiness with a decent man. And I really do think Christopher is a good man, who happens to be in a tough spot at the moment.

So true.  I am a huge fan of this series, but, this storyline with Sister Monica Joan is so BIZARRE, ANNOYING AND PATHETIC.  WHY can't they get it right?  Seasons ago, Sister MJ was portrayed to have SUBSTANTIAL dementia.  She was so progressed with it, that she could not be responsible to even answer the phone and take a message.  She even almost died, after wandering away to a an old house and freezing to death.  But, they insist on continuing to allow her to roam around the city unsupervised and even PRETEND that a person with dementia can learn new things.  It's not possible.  Learning Braille? They are ridiculous.  They are portraying Sister MJ as a savant and a little quirky,  when she is actually experiencing loss of brain cells.  I just find it unacceptable for a show that features multiple health care professionals. It's time to let that character go in a dignified fashion, if they can't handle it realistically, imo.  Maybe, they now regret portraying her as having dementia, but, sadly brain damage is not reversible. 

I really do hope that happiness comes for Trixie.  I can see why continuing to live in that house and not really have her own life, to speak of, would be challenging.  I haven't read much about it, so, I"m not sure if the actress intends to return.  I would miss her, but, can see how she may feel. 

Call The Midwife Meets Sister Wives!  That's a new one!  lol  I wasn't that wild about that storyline. I see enough of it on TLC channel.  It seemed that a lot of the dialogue in this episode was repeated a lot.  Not just with this storyline, but, Sister MJ too.  Just over and over, like they were tying to stretch it out.  I rarely look at the clock when watching this show.  I did quite a few times on this episode.  Not a good sign. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Rap541]

Quote

Polygamy continues in the US with children married to old men in "spiritual" marriages (e.g. the Warren Jeffs clan).  And as stated by several others, many states allow children (I think of any young teens as children) to marry men of any age as long as the parents consent.  And as long as old men make the laws, that's not going to change.

I feel like I need to defend the US a little here. Polygamy is *extremely uncommon* and *illegal* even in Utah, the one place where it's rooted deeply. Likewise while some states do allow marriage at an young age, it is not common nor is it smiled upon.

Quote

But none where the teen was simply sent back to await her next pregnancy since everybody was able to remember the age of consent. But since they were willing to accept Praveen as married woman they should have at least made sure she would not get immediately pregnant again - birth control was available for married women.

Realistically, what could they do that would have had a good outcome for Praveen? Prosecute her husband? Leaving her alone on the streets of the East End with a baby?

Birth control? How would they do that? They barely were allowing birth control - only married women were getting it prescribed. In the confines of 1963, what were the nuns and Dr. Turner able to do to fix this situation that didn't actually make things much worse for Praveen and her baby?

I mean, it's sad as hell but part of the sadness on this show is that people suffered in "the olden days" because of stupid societal things like men wrapping their manhood up in having sons.

I'm a little done on the Sister Monica Joan storylines as well. I probably am too jaded by working with older people to have a lot of patience for the "Don't treat me like a child" routine - sorry, I know it's disrespectful, I know I will get old, but there's nothing worse than the elderly toddler footstomp of "Respect me! I'm older so fuck you!" - and while Sister Monica Joan is clearly too much of a nun to actually say that, there is a point where I just don't believe she's safe to be left alone and I don't understand why it's danced around.

[anna0852]

Is frustrating is Sister Monica Joan's behavior was, I don't think it was a matter of 'respect me I'm your Elder'. I think it was a matter of 'stop pressuring me. I'm already terrified and don't have all my marbles and I know it yet I have to try to wrap my head around this new technology, and to her it is new, rather than accepting and working around the loss of my vision.'

[MissLucas]

3 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

Birth control? How would they do that? They barely were allowing birth control - only married women were getting it prescribed. In the confines of 1963, what were the nuns and Dr. Turner able to do to fix this situation that didn't actually make things much worse for Praveen and her baby?

 

One of the few positive things about Mr Ganit was that he actually seemed to care about Praveen and her health. And since he considered her his wife and they were all going along with it they could have mentioned birth control until she's sufficiently recovered (and of age).  They made a big fuss about birth control being legal and available now for married couples so why not put it on the table here? That's an absolute minimum they could have done for her as she was clearly struggling with her pregnancy. Since they couldn't do anything about the troublesome legal situation (and it's by no means clear that they could not have) they should at least have tried to do something about the troublesome medical situation. 

I'm not blaming the characters - I'm blaming the writing that was half-baked for the whole episode.

[Rap541]

Quote

I'm not blaming the characters - I'm blaming the writing that was half-baked for the whole episode.

Yeah, honestly the writing has been pretty poor. The pica thing seemed totally thrown in there, and Trixie's drunkenness was poorly thought out. I don't mind her going back on the bottle or relapsing, but I was literally laughing every time she swigged because it was so obvious she was pregnant. I swear, I was sipping my wine and shouting "Trixie! Thats bad for Baby!" 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

Regarding pica:  I remember as a kid, my aunt and some of her friends used to eat starch while they watched their soap operas on tv.

Eating starch and clay are pretty common cravings in pregnancy in some women. It is linked to iron deficiency and anemia and it would be easy to imagine that many of the women living in Poplar at that time had insufficient iron in their diets.  This has been known for a while, I was kind of surprised that none of the midwives suggested checking her blood count or giving her an iron supplement.

[doodlebug]

41 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

I feel like I need to defend the US a little here. Polygamy is *extremely uncommon* and *illegal* even in Utah, the one place where it's rooted deeply. Likewise while some states do allow marriage at an young age, it is not common nor is it smiled upon.

Realistically, what could they do that would have had a good outcome for Praveen? Prosecute her husband? Leaving her alone on the streets of the East End with a baby?

Birth control? How would they do that? They barely were allowing birth control - only married women were getting it prescribed. In the confines of 1963, what were the nuns and Dr. Turner able to do to fix this situation that didn't actually make things much worse for Praveen and her baby?

I mean, it's sad as hell but part of the sadness on this show is that people suffered in "the olden days" because of stupid societal things like men wrapping their manhood up in having sons.

I don't think Parveen/Mumtaz' husband could be prosecuted since the second wedding took place in Pakistan, not England.  What could've happened is that all of them decide that while he and Parveen might be legally married in Pakistan; they do not have to be sexually active together in England.  Now that there is a son, the family is going to undoubtedly be satisfied, at least in the short term.  Beyond that, they owe no explanations to anyone as to what they are or are not doing.  If the family asks why more babies haven't come along, a shrug of the shoulders and 'I don't know' should suffice. 

I've not been to Pakistan, but I've been to Kenya where second wives are not unusual.  In the ones I've encountered, it usually happens as the first wife is getting out of her childbearing years and the husband wants more kids.  Although it is a poor country, having many children is considered a blessing, even if the family has a hard time caring for them.  During my last trip, I took care of a 42 year old mother of 4 who was anemic from heavy periods and uterine fibroids.  She had a very difficult time deciding to have a hysterectomy because her husband had just taken a young wife, early 20's, and would soon be having babies with her.  This was a well educated, working woman and she was very fearful that her husband, who she loved, was going to start favoring the new wife over her if she was no longer able to get pregnant.  She did have the surgery, BTW.

[SunnyBeBe]

I won't hold the baby belly against them.  You could see that belly in a couple of scenes, especially, when she was drinking. But, that's okay.  I had read about her real life condition.  Oh my.....nice touch to avoid the smoking though. 

I don't think I'm that picky really, but, some things are just too much, like Sister MJ.  They've had time to make it right. Instead, they keep digging it deeper.  I hope they don't really let her condition cause someone to die and then they all act surprised.  Please.

I did appreciate the story about the first woman in space.  I wasn't familiar with that story and looked it up.  

https://www.space.com/21571-valentina-tereshkova.html

[Ohwell]

40 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Eating starch and clay are pretty common cravings in pregnancy in some women. It is linked to iron deficiency and anemia and it would be easy to imagine that many of the women living in Poplar at that time had insufficient iron in their diets.  This has been known for a while, I was kind of surprised that none of the midwives suggested checking her blood count or giving her an iron supplement.

I used to have a craving for crushed ice until cousin of mine told me that I probably had iron deficiency because she used to do the same thing.  Sure enough, when I went to the doctor for a regular checkup and mentioned eating ice, the blood results came back and I had an iron deficiency.