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S07.E17: Chosen

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4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It was after she threw the eyes into the fire. Hansel threatened Zelena with a poker or something (I can’t remember). So she retaliated by setting his arms on fire. :-p

Ah, must have missed it. I saw him getting a knive and threatening her, and she just laughed him off, must have zoned out after that.

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You know, as badly as this season was written, Colin still seemed to be having a blast in it. He must have been getting to play out all kinds of childhood fantasies from watching American TV. He got to drive a cool car, kick doors open with his gun held ready, handcuff people, and do interrogations. (And when you consider that his post-show roles have included playing an Old West bandit and an astronaut, wee baby Colin's dreams really must have come true.)

I think the ending was even more unsatisfying this time around. It's lovely that Kelly's offscreen fiance was able to accept that she has a past and loves her anyway, but that's more for stuff like finding out she's a recovering alcoholic, went to jail for shoplifting, or was driving when her last boyfriend died in a car wreck. Finding out that she's an entirely different person, one who has committed murders, is a bit beyond that. She said she hadn't told him the fairy tale stuff, but that's pretty key. Without that, she can't have come entirely clean. How would she tell him she murdered a woman so she could impersonate her and steal her sister's boyfriend?

Not to mention, Zelena should be pushing 70 by now and has an adult daughter, but Chad looked to be in his mid-30s, not that much older than Margot. It really seems like the writers completely forgot how much time had passed, in spite of there being characters who aged into different actors.

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I was more engaged in this episode than I expected.  In hindsight.. this was one of the better Zelena episodes, maybe this was the first one where she was clearly in the hero camp?  It reminded me of episodes where we were really rooting for Hook in present-day and then we find out in the flashback that he murdered David's father, or left his half-brother an orphan, etc.  This show seriously induces amnesia because I did not remember that Zelena maimed children.  

I guess one thing Season 7 did was show Regina and Zelena in a supportive sisterly relationship which should have happened at the start of Season 6 when they moved in together.  

Zelena's fighting skills were on point.  Who needs magic, eh?

Does Glinda not want the "family heirloom" aka giant green necklace back?  There was zero reason why Weaver would have it.  

Why didn't Zelena at least tell Chad that she had to go to Seattle for a family emergency?  It seemed like she just dropped off the face of the Earth with Chad's voice message that he made a restaurant reservation and was hoping she would be there.

How did Hansel/Jack/Nick get a hold of Kelly's fiancé's information again?  That wasn't explained at all.

Why was Zelena staying alone at the pub without police protection?  But Margo was detained at the station?  A police sting would have snagged Hansel.

Henry "slayed" giants with Jack?  Tsk tsk... why would Anton say?

There was no reason for Dr. Facilier to kill Nick.  The police wasn't even close to tracing their connection, plus Nick had no idea about Dr. Facilier waking him up.  He could have freed Nick to kill Gothel.

Did Dr. Facilier use up the All Power Beignet Sugar Powder™ on killing Nick?  Or does that voodoo doll come into play again?

Edited by Camera One

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16 hours ago, Camera One said:

I guess one thing Season 7 did was show Regina and Zelena in a supportive sisterly relationship which should have happened at the start of Season 6 when they moved in together.  

It would have been nice if we'd actually seen that relationship develop instead of it being presented as an established thing.

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

Does Glinda not want the "family heirloom" aka giant green necklace back?  There was zero reason why Weaver would have it.  

It should be in Regina's vault in Storybrooke (the last time we saw it). So how did it end up in Weaver's vault when someone else engineered the curse? Why would Gothel's curse be set up to give Weaver all sorts of handy things? And apparently pull them from Storybrooke?

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

How did Hansel/Jack/Nick get a hold of Kelly's fiancé's information again?  That wasn't explained at all.

He's a villain, so he knows everything. That's how it works in this universe.

ETA:

  

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

Henry "slayed" giants with Jack?  Tsk tsk... why would Anton say?


I guess heroes don't kill people, but slaying is totally okay.

Edited by Shanna Marie

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On 12/13/2019 at 6:10 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I think the ending was even more unsatisfying this time around. It's lovely that Kelly's offscreen fiance was able to accept that she has a past and loves her anyway, but that's more for stuff like finding out she's a recovering alcoholic, went to jail for shoplifting, or was driving when her last boyfriend died in a car wreck. Finding out that she's an entirely different person, one who has committed murders, is a bit beyond that. She said she hadn't told him the fairy tale stuff, but that's pretty key. Without that, she can't have come entirely clean. How would she tell him she murdered a woman so she could impersonate her and steal her sister's boyfriend?

I always laugh at the 'without the fairytale stuff' idea. How does this story go without the fairytale stuff?

'I was in a turf war with a cannibal and found some kids she had in cages but I didn't free them then she beat me up and I had to recover on the house of a blind carpenter and we really connected, but his kids were the ones I didn't free earlier, so when I got my strength back I went after the cannibal and wanted to free his kids, but they'd already escaped, but anyway I beat up the cannibal and exiled her from my territory and went back to  the carpenter's house, and kids were there! So I was really happy and thought we could all be s family but they didn't want anything to do with me because I'd left the kids to be eaten, which in hindsight I suppose was fair,  and the boy came at me with a knife, so I threw him in the fire, and that was the man who came after us... And that's the story... So *awkward smile* we're still ok for a March wedding?'

Its entirely possible that he thinks she's had some kind of psychotic break and when they get home he's going to insist that she go to see a psychiatrist. Once she starts explaining that she's actually the Wicked Witch of the West I think she might end up getting sectioned.

On 12/13/2019 at 6:10 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Not to mention, Zelena should be pushing 70 by now and has an adult daughter, but Chad looked to be in his mid-30s, not that much older than Margot. It really seems like the writers completely forgot how much time had passed, in spite of there being characters who aged into different actors.

This... This is something I never considered. Kelly the Fitness Trainer would have had Margot when she was a teenager, or at most in early twenties, if she is officially around the same age as Mader. 

If Chad is in his mid 30s and Kelly is early to mid 40s that also means she was, based on the story she told him, having a turf war with a cannibal around the same time her daughter was born. He's going to think she was some kind of vicious gangster from the ages of 15-20... I'm going to guess just based off her accent that this was not part of her official backstory, but who knows, maybe Kelly was from the nastiest most violent bit of London and grew up surrounded by violence and crime but did everything she could to escape including adopting a posh accent in order to give her daughter a better life...

Kelly sounds pretty interesting, pity she was invented by a curse.

On 12/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, Camera One said:

I guess one thing Season 7 did was show Regina and Zelena in a supportive sisterly relationship which should have happened at the start of Season 6 when they moved in together.  

In fairness it would have been a little odd fir them to go straight to being sisterly and supportive after they'd spebt 3 seasons fighting. Of course it was also odd fir them to decide to be friends after remembering that one afternoon when they were ten. It might actually be more believable that this relationship would have developed over the course of years,though it's a bit if a cheat to have it all off screen.

On 12/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, Camera One said:

Zelena's fighting skills were on point.  Who needs magic, eh?

Maybe that's gym rat Kelly doing a lot of kickboxing classes. Or maybe she had to fight all those anti-magic bigots in the land ruled by good witches and wonderful wizards.

Pretty poor showing for a guy who's supposedly killed giants.

On 12/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, Camera One said:

Why didn't Zelena at least tell Chad that she had to go to Seattle for a family emergency?  It seemed like she just dropped off the face of the Earth with Chad's voice message that he made a restaurant reservation and was hoping she would be there.

This is another reason that I think the men in white coats may be waiting for her when she gets back.

On 12/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, Camera One said:

How did Hansel/Jack/Nick get a hold of Kelly's fiancé's information again?  That wasn't explained at all.

Jack was tremendously inconsistent, if he could do that, and if he could poison his first two victims without anyone having any idea who he was, he should have been able to lock the Mills sisters in their bar and set the place on fire.

Now THAT would have established there was some danger.

On 12/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, Camera One said:

Why was Zelena staying alone at the pub without police protection?  But Margo was detained at the station?  A police sting would have snagged Hansel.

This is a big problem. Ivy had the same problem, there is someone out there trying to kill you, why do you just keep hanging out in the open with no one around waiting to get murdered...

On 12/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, Camera One said:

There was no reason for Dr. Facilier to kill Nick.  The police wasn't even close to tracing their connection, plus Nick had no idea about Dr. Facilier waking him up.  He could have freed Nick to kill Gothel.

Did Dr. Facilier use up the All Power Beignet Sugar Powder™ on killing Nick?  Or does that voodoo doll come into play again?

Spoiler

I believe he never used the voodoo doll again. And he must have used some of his limited Beignet magic to sneak into the station and sabotage all.tge cameras.

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21 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It would have been nice if we'd actually seen that relationship develop instead of it being presented as an established thing.

Yes, that was a total cheat.  

9 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

In fairness it would have been a little odd fir them to go straight to being sisterly and supportive after they'd spebt 3 seasons fighting. Of course it was also odd fir them to decide to be friends after remembering that one afternoon when they were ten. It might actually be more believable that this relationship would have developed over the course of years,though it's a bit if a cheat to have it all off screen.

They sort of did that with "Sisters" already so I think it could have worked if Regina and Zelena had worked out their issues through multiple episodes in 6A, as they adjusted to living together.  

It would still be more believable than Regina becoming BFFs with Snow or Emma.

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Jack was tremendously inconsistent, if he could do that, and if he could poson his first two victims without anyone having any idea who he was, he should have been able to lock the Mills sisters in their bar and set the place on fire.

That shouldn't be hard for him at all, considering he somehow got Chad into the basement without Zelena seeing anything.  Plus Victoria already locked the sisters in the basement once already.

Though I guess Dr. Facilier would not allow Regina to be hurt because he truly looooves her.

9 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

I always laugh at the 'without the fairytale stuff' idea. How does this story go without the fairytale stuff?

'I was in a turf war with a cannibal and found some kids she had in cages but I didn't free them then she beat me up...

That would have been hilarious, and as I said in an earlier post when this episode first aired, how the heck did Zelena explain how she came to adopt Robyn?  That's a stretch even if Chad agreed to ALL of Kelly, even the parts he didn't know.

The real-life equivalent of this show is "Convicted Murderers/Rapists and their Happy Endings"... watch cold blooded killers make deals with each other, fall in love in ordinary people who don't know their pasts and become best friends with their victims' families.  January 2020 on Disney +.

Victim #1: Until I got involved with this season's killer, I didn't realize how flawed I was.  

Victim #2: I know now deep inside, they have good inside of them even though he/she backslid yesterday and planned to set fire to the entire prison killing everyone inside.  Except me, so it's all good.

Murderer/Rapist #1: I don't have any regrets.  If I didn't murder anyone, I wouldn't be on this show and you wouldn't be entertained.  You should thank me.

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11 hours ago, Camera One said:

It would still be more believable than Regina becoming BFFs with Snow or Emma.

Regina and Zelena really haven't done that much to screw each other over. And when they have, it's usually been in retaliation on equal footing. There was never poor, innocent victim scenario. They were both awful people who did awful things to each other and others. Snow and Emma were both victims of Regina's unfounded rage. Zelena is one of the few people in town Regina didn't ruin the life of, so logically, I think they would be at least frenemies.

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They sort of did that with "Sisters" already so I think it could have worked if Regina and Zelena had worked out their issues through multiple episodes in 6A, as they adjusted to living together.  

While it's ridiculous that Regina and Zelena reconciled after remembering one afternoon together as kids, the show treated it as a big deal. Cora, the mass murdering dictator, got to go to freaking heaven because of it. Thematically, Regina and Zelena should've been in at least at a state where they could live together. Would conflict and shenanigans ensue? Would Zelena leave the coffee pot on much to Regina's chagrin? Absolutely. But I think it a shame that Regina just hated Zelena all season just like did with Snow way back in S1. Like, if there's going to be conflict, it should be within the context of trying to become better sisters, not this baseless blame for something Zelena wasn't even directly responsible for.

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40 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Like, if there's going to be conflict, it should be within the context of trying to become better sisters, not this baseless blame for something Zelena wasn't even directly responsible for.

Exactly.  I think in 6A, A&E's mind was already set on having The Evil Queen half of Regina persuade Zelena to join The Dark Side.  They couldn't even see that it reflected really poorly on their favorite character and not in a bold and audacious way.

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18 hours ago, Camera One said:

That shouldn't be hard for him at all, considering he somehow got Chad into the basement without Zelena seeing anything.  Plus Victoria already locked the sisters in the basement once already.

Though I guess Dr. Facilier would not allow Regina to be hurt because he truly looooves her.

At least it would give Facilier something to do, and a reason to kill Jack.

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

That would have been hilarious, and as I said in an earlier post when this episode first aired, how the heck did Zelena explain how she came to adopt Robyn?  That's a stretch even if Chad agreed to ALL of Kelly, even the parts he didn't know.

There are three (I can think of) ways in which the Zarian Incident could happen without magic: Masquerade ball, identical twins and Mission Impossible facemask. I think poor Chad would need longer than the span if this episode to process the idea that anyone of those could actually happen. 

In fact if she's going with any of those explanations...frankly she might as well just tell him everything, I'm not sure magic existing would be that much more of a shock.

I don't even know what the real world version of 'i stole a baby to erase my sister from time' or 'i was killed and turned into goo them I came back to life somehow using my time travel spell' would be.

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

Murderer/Rapist #1: I don't have any regrets.  If I didn't murder anyone, I wouldn't be on this show and you wouldn't be entertained.  You should thank me.

In Inmate 1's defence we did all watch the show for 7 years and are still talking about it now, so....

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Exactly.  I think in 6A, A&E's mind was already set on having The Evil Queen half of Regina persuade Zelena to join The Dark Side.  They couldn't even see that it reflected really poorly on their favorite character and not in a bold and audacious way.

Did anything come out of that? I don't remember her helping the Evil Queen very much, they just hung out and got a spa at one point. 

Then again I could go on for days and days about how disappointing the Evil Queen was; I went into season 6 expecting something a lot more epic than that.

Also worth noting that the Regina who hates her sister was the one without any darkness, after she specifically removed her darkness so she wouldn't express her grief through misplaced anger.

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina and Zelena really haven't done that much to screw each other over. And when they have, it's usually been in retaliation on equal footing. There was never poor, innocent victim scenario. They were both awful people who did awful things to each other and others. Snow and Emma were both victims of Regina's unfounded rage. Zelena is one of the few people in town Regina didn't ruin the life of, so logically, I think they would be at least frenemies.

I don't know about logical, since we know how they can both hold a grudge, on the other hand they can also understand one another.

It's certainly more fun if they're frenemies, Parilla and Mader have great on screen chemistry and it's a pity to be so haphazard with it.

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Thematically, Regina and Zelena should've been in at least at a state where they could live together. Would conflict and shenanigans ensue? Would Zelena leave the coffee pot on much to Regina's chagrin? Absolutely. But I think it a shame that Regina just hated Zelena all season just like did with Snow way back in S1. Like, if there's going to be conflict, it should be within the context of trying to become better sisters, not this baseless blame for something Zelena wasn't even directly responsible for.

Yes to all of the above. I think it's been said that the show always tended towards big moments rather than building up relationships. Regina declaring her hatred and resentment makes for a big moment even if it means missing out on more smaller scale drama over the long term.

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8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Exactly.  I think in 6A, A&E's mind was already set on having The Evil Queen half of Regina persuade Zelena to join The Dark Side.  They couldn't even see that it reflected really poorly on their favorite character and not in a bold and audacious way.

I think they still could've had Clone Queen come in to gum up the works and tempt Zelena, but Zelena didn't have to fall for it. Maybe her and Regina could get really irritated with living together and even have a big fight, then it seems like Zelena joins with EQ, but she's really double-crossing her and working for the heroes. EQ wouldn't know about the bonding time Zelena and Regina would've had in 6A, so she wouldn't necessarily expect Zelena to make the right choice. 

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18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

then it seems like Zelena joins with EQ, but she's really double-crossing her and working for the heroes. 

That is a great idea.  This show rarely likes having the characters carrying out smart and effective plans, as if it's enjoyable to watch them fall for every dumb trick in the book.

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So Regina somehow found moss to cure Henry of the deadly curse he was given by the Coven.  How the heck did she even know how to concoct this potion anyway?  These sudden solutions after almost 10 episodes of nothing was irritating.  

Hansel was traumatized by the gingerbread house, so he gives Lucy a gingerbread house kit.

We were wondering last episode if the video camera on the troll would capture Nick giving Henry a ride, so the answer was no, I suppose.

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So hold on, Henry went off slaying giants? So he and Jack/Hansel bonded over some happy fairytale genocide? Have we totally forgotten about Anton?! Well, it is consistent in how this show writes morality: If the main characters do it, its ok. 

Follow up, if Hansel/Jack had this deep seated psycho killer side to him that hated all witches and wanted them dead, how did he hide it for so long hanging with the Disenchanted forest crew? He was fine with palling around with Regina, who has a LONG history of dark magic, and even Zelena when she was passing by, and was just, what, biding his time? And they really play him as a crazy eyed major psycho killer evil bad guy, but if he is killing members of Gothels coven...arent they the bad guys? I mean, killing people is certainly a morally ambiguous thing to do, its not like he is just killing random innocent people here. Even trying to kill Ivy is kind of in a grey area, considering Ivy was the big bad of this whole curse, and was still doing some evil shit until the last second, and Zelena, who really did seriously screw his family over. Even his ranting about killing all witches kind of makes sense, considering we so rarely run into good witches on this show. Most of the non evil magic users who arent fairies, like Emma and Elsa, dont refer to themselves as witches, and even the good witches now are mostly reformed evil witches. I mean, this is presumably sloppy world building on the shows part as always, and their usual "I saw this plot on some other show, so we can do it too!" style of story telling, only they miss everything that actually makes those kinds of stories work. I think Jack could have worked better if they played him as deeply disturbed and dangerous, but most vengeance obsessed and tormented, and not this bargain basement serial killer. 

So why exactly did Dr. Facilier have to kill Nick again? Almost like the writers just had no idea what to do with Nick anymore and wanted to get rid of him easily or something! 

It was kind of hilarious when Hasel and Gretals dad was yelling at her for hanging out with him instead of saving his kids, she was like "it wasnt like that!!" when it was literally exactly like that! I do appreciate that, unlike in most villain sob story episodes on this show, Zelena did admit quickly that she screwed up and that she was at fault, and didnt end up smugly killing the person whos villain origin she started, unlike her sis, so thats something at least. However, like a lot of Once episodes, it has the same creepy vibe that we are supposed to be mad at people for not instantly forgiving people for doing horrible evil things for the evil things the same person did later on. Its a lot like the episode where Regina was in disguise in the EH and bonded with Snow a bit, thinking that maybe she could reform, then when Snow saw the village she slaughtered for helping her, she (understandably) was heartbroken and furious and said that Regina was evil. And the show was like "oh if only Snow hadn't been so cruelly quick to judge Regina would have been good! This is her fault just like it always is!" and its so messed up.  

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7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Follow up, if Hansel/Jack had this deep seated psycho killer side to him that hated all witches and wanted them dead, how did he hide it for so long hanging with the Disenchanted forest crew?

I wonder if he didn't start to snap until Gretel was killed, and that was close to the time of the curse. They skipped over that whole phase in the timeline, so we don't know how much he was hanging around.

But you would think he would have noticed Zelena and reacted to her. She was around during this time.

Rogers's big clue was that Nick called Jacinda J, and that was in the text she got from Henry. But, first of all, who addresses a text? And if you do, an initial is pretty common and has nothing to do with what you call them in person. That seems like a big logical leap. Though I guess a gingerbread house kit in a month other than December would be suspicious if you thought the suspect thought he was Hansel.

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1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I wonder if he didn't start to snap until Gretel was killed, and that was close to the time of the curse. They skipped over that whole phase in the timeline, so we don't know how much he was hanging around.

Gretel seemed to have died at least 8 years before the Curse since Drizella turned into rock for that length of time.  Nick was actually present when Drizella made her prophesy and he looked perfectly happy with Henry and company.  This was in Episode 10.

Then in Episode 11, we see Zelena arriving at Tiana's castle when Lucy was still a baby.  After rescuing Robyn, they stayed in the Disenchanted Forest (as per Ep 14 Tower Girl episode) so Zelena and Robyn would have been around for around 7-8 years too.

Nick was at Tiana's castle 8 years later for Lucy's 8th birthday when the Coven arrived to free Drizella.  And at this birthday party, Regina lit the candles for the cake using... magic.

So Nick and Zelena should presumably have seen each other around and Nick would have known Regina did magic regularly.

I had to rewind/fast-forward a few episodes to figure out the actual timeline.  That's how confusing this show is.  I just watched these episodes in the last few weeks but my memories about them are already all jumbled for some reason.

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20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I had to rewind/fast-forward a few episodes to figure out the actual timeline.  That's how confusing this show is.  I just watched these episodes in the last few weeks but my memories about them are already all jumbled for some reason.

Better you than me! The whole thing has blurred so much even though I just watched these. Not that I'm paying close attention. I'd forgotten that he was around after Gretel's death.

I stand by my belief that they didn't decide Nick/Jack/Hansel was the killer until the very last second, after they'd already started the plot. He didn't react to Drizella, who actually killed his sister, hung around Zelena -- the person who burned him -- without reaction (and apparently never considered going on a revenge tear), and didn't react to Regina using magic. Meanwhile, they were making it look like someone was using magic to frame Tilly and to blur her memories, and they were making it look like Gothel was up to something. What do you bet it was one of those "twists" shouted out in the writers room, after they'd already written all that other stuff.

I know! He wasn't really "awake" in Hyperion Heights. It was like Victoria, where his curse persona was himself, but with different attitudes and knowledge. So he thought he was awake, but he just got a new curse persona that was himself, but as a psychopath who wanted to murder all witches. His real self back in the Disenchanted Forest was actually pretty chill about it all. Facilier gave him this new personality for Reasons.

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How did Hansel even find out about how Gretel died?  I'm assuming Mother Gothel was the leave-no-witnesses type?  

They should have had the doctor who was killed in the 7B premiere appear in the flashbacks here somehow, maybe as the witch's assistant.  They never really went back to explain why she was killed.  There were direct reasons for the other targets - the baker was the Blind Witch, Drizella killed Gothel and Zelena set him on fire.  

Was Hansel going to try to kill Roni, or was she alright in his books?  

Why not have an episode of Nick being free and working with Dr. Facilier to target Gothel?  Did they really need a "shocking" death at the end of this one?

So Dr. Facilier woke Nick up and then he decided to buy Henry's fake book and obsessively read it adding his own personal notes?  Seriously... why?

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On 12/17/2019 at 6:46 PM, tennisgurl said:

So hold on, Henry went off slaying giants? So he and Jack/Hansel bonded over some happy fairytale genocide? Have we totally forgotten about Anton?! Well, it is consistent in how this show writes morality: If the main characters do it, its ok. 

They were the bad kind of giants. Probably.

Spoiler

I wonder if any of them got jammed into the United Realms of Fiction at the end of the series, they might want a word with Henry about that.

Except, no, time travel... So they'd just be a bunch of bad giants hanging around somewhere.

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Even his ranting about killing all witches kind of makes sense, considering we so rarely run into good witches on this show. Most of the non evil magic users who arent fairies, like Emma and Elsa, dont refer to themselves as witches, and even the good witches now are mostly reformed evil witches.

Aha! Now this is interesting because if he's the Hansel of Oz Jack actually comes from a world protected by good witches- if not particularly impressive ones since they were apparently defeated by a carnival showman and Zelena had never heard of them til they recruited her... And they recruited Zelena despite her waving red flags like drunken matador*

Anyway that's the sort of thing that really could sour you on witches if they're supposed to be protecting the common people and you, as a member of the common people, meet one who tries to eat you and one who sets you on fire.

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I mean, this is presumably sloppy world building on the shows part as always, and their usual "I saw this plot on some other show, so we can do it too!" style of story telling, only they miss everything that actually makes those kinds of stories work.

Yeah, there is a big difference between a witch hunter in something like Charmed or Harry Potter, where most witches seem to be alright (or indeed heroic) and in Once, where dark magic seems overwhelmingly more powerful. Each one of these dark curses is able to manually alter people's minds and emotions and to twist spacetime into balloon animals, and there just doesn't seem to be a light side equivalent to that. The most that white magic can apparently do is partially fix what's been done by black magic. The only good magic that seems to be anywhere near the same level is the genie creating the wish realm (which is terrifying whatever colour that magic is) and Zeus-Father of Gods and Men, bringing a guy back to life. Most of the evil witches in the series are, in fact, killed by black magic (Cora, Pan, Zelena, Rumple is banished by his own dark magic, Dark Hook is killed and Emma de-darkened by dark magic, the Black Fairy, there may be others...)

Considering the damage this shot can do, Tamara's argument that 'magic is a diseeeeeease' might not be as silly and fanatical as it sounds. Can you imagine Once magic getting a real foothold in our world, and what the tyrants and psychopaths of the 21st century would be able to do with it?

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I think Jack could have worked better if they played him as deeply disturbed and dangerous, but most vengeance obsessed and tormented, and not this bargain basement serial killer. 

I actually thought when he was talking to Henry he did come across as pretty tragic, the guy playing him did a good job. He sounded really sad and regretful seeing that his friend didn't recognise any of their history and didn't understand his motives.

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So why exactly did Dr. Facilier have to kill Nick again? Almost like the writers just had no idea what to do with Nick anymore and wanted to get rid of him easily or something! 

I think he was worried Nick would have killed his girlfriend, which is a scenario he would have no way of anticipating or planning for before turning him into a witch-hunting assassin 😉

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It was kind of hilarious when Hasel and Gretals dad was yelling at her for hanging out with him instead of saving his kids, she was like "it wasnt like that!!" when it was literally exactly like that! I do appreciate that, unlike in most villain sob story episodes on this show, Zelena did admit quickly that she screwed up and that she was at fault, and didnt end up smugly killing the person whos villain origin she started, unlike her sis, so thats something at least. However, like a lot of Once episodes, it has the same creepy vibe that we are supposed to be mad at people for not instantly forgiving people for doing horrible evil things for the evil things the same person did later on. 

People identify more with the villains, or are at least more interested in them?

In fairness I think this instance isn't as jarring since Zelena does admit she did a bad thing. I don't think he's explicitly being shamed for not forgiving her, just that he shouldn't be endangering innocent people like her dumb muggle boyfriend or trying to make her daughter an orphan. 

*I'm not convinced Glinda was on the level there, though. Why do you give an unstable young woman desperate for validation a magic device that gives her supreme magical power but leaves her helpless if it's lost? Gee, why would you want a super-sorceress you can play like a fiddle with a handy off switch? 

plus I checked her file on the wiki just now; cleavage of evil 😋

Edited by Speakeasy
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11 hours ago, Camera One said:

So Dr. Facilier woke Nick up and then he decided to buy Henry's fake book and obsessively read it adding his own personal notes?  Seriously... why?

You know, now that I think about it, that makes zero sense. If he's awake and has all his own memories, he doesn't need to read Henry's book to know what's going on. Henry's book wouldn't even be useful, since it's not about the people he's going after. And if he's awake, he would know this, since surely he's heard all about Henry's past adventures and his family. He would know it's about a different Hansel and Gretel. No need to add notes or read obsessively. It only makes any sense if Nick being awake was like Victoria, where it was a curse identity that only made him think he was awake and himself but that had other stuff going on, so his curse identity was as himself, but also crazy and obsessed with fairy tales. Or was his obsessive annotation from before he woke, where he had the vague sense that this stuff might be true but seemed all wrong?

It's also interesting that, as far as they know, Lucy's biological father is obsessed with the same book she is, and is spouting the same crazy stuff about it being real as she does. Does this not alarm them about Lucy? Do they not want to at least run her by a shrink? If it's genetic, it could be some form of mental illness.

2 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

You're all going to laugh at me for saying that but plenty of fans do identify with the villains much more than the heroes. 

That's distressingly common. Fans will idolize characters whose behavior they would find abhorrent in real life. And then there are the people who write love letters to serial killers. There's a very common attitude that heroes and good people are boring, while villains and antiheroes are automatically more interesting. From reading most Internet discussion of TV/movies/books, you'd think that the absolute worst thing a person could do is try to be a good person and not succeed 100 percent. Those people are the worst evil and deserve to suffer. Meanwhile, the mostly bad person who does one good thing, even if it's actually selfish, is the greatest hero ever. That's true for almost every show. The most hated character who is raked over the coals is probably the one who tries to be good. At best, he's boring. At worst, he's a hypocrite because he failed to be perfect in spite of considering himself to be good.

This show was written for those fans. This forum does seem to break the usual mold, in that the more vocal people here didn't buy it. Maybe the fact that the writers were obviously pushing that narrative made us resist.

Edited by Shanna Marie · Reason: typo patrol

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1 hour ago, Speakeasy said:

Considering the damage this shot can do, Tamara's argument that 'magic is a diseeeeeease' might not be as silly and fanatical as it sounds. Can you imagine Once magic getting a real foothold in our world, and what the tyrants and psychopaths of the 21st century would be able to do with it?

And this is where the show is so clumsy. The writers seem to be aware that people in this universe would view magic as a bad thing because of the overwhelming number of dark magic users and tragedies inflicted by magical means. It wasn't just Greg and Tamara, but Nick, Neal, Henry, Violet, Frankenstein, and most citizens of Storybrooke that viewed magic as something inferior or that needed to be destroyed, regardless of the side of the coin. The problem was that antimagic was always viewed as a negative thing. (Except maybe in the case of Baelfire, but boooy did that get retconned in S6.) It wasn't a fair argument because A) the writers made 95% of the light magic users stupid or useless, and B) there were never any anti-magic people portrayed as sensible. They were either some good person gone rogue like Henry or someone eeeevil with a taser like Tamara. The writers never even bothered to explore whether or not there could be a compromise. They just ended up with "yeah magic is good because it's more fun to write for."

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8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's also interesting that, as far as they know, Lucy's biological father is obsessed with the same book she is, and is spouting the same crazy stuff about it being real as she does. Does this not alarm them about Lucy? Do they not want to at least run her by a shrink? If it's genetic, it could be some form of mental illness.

I would be disappointed if they don't explore that in the upcoming episodes.

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In this episode, we find out that Dr. Facilier had woken up Nick to kill Gothel so he could get the dagger from Weaver.  

If he had all these plans in motion, why was he just giving free magic to Regina and giving Nick free reign?  

Wouldn't the magic voodoo doll be better employed in other ways to pursue his diabolical plan?

Overall, he doesn't seem to have much urgency.

Meanwhile, Gothel has been MIA for two episodes.

So we basically have two low presence villains this close to the end of the season.

Edited by Camera One

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4 hours ago, Camera One said:

In this episode, we find out that Dr. Facilier had woken up Nick to kill Gothel so he could get the dagger from Weaver.  

If he had all these plans in motion, why was he just giving free magic to Regina and giving Nick free reign?  

Wouldn't the magic voodoo doll be better employed in other ways to pursue his diabolical plan?

Overall, he doesn't seem to have much urgency.

Meanwhile, Gothel has been MIA for two episodes.

So we basically have two low presence villains this close to the end of the season.

This season.was meant to recapture the magic of season 1 and a lot of the magic of season 1 was in its breakout villains, Regina and Rumplestiltskin. Since they wanted to make a bigger impact this season had two Reginas and two Rumpelstiltskins but ended up with a fraction of the charisma, interest or menace of the originals spread between them.

My take anyway, Gothel and Facilier are both supposed to be Rumple, plotting in the background, but there's no coherency to their plans, so they look just... Absent and maybe lazy, rather than like chess masters.

On a tangent as well about the New Rumples: Gothel is at least distinctive and while Emma Booth doesn't play her with a lot of range she manages to be effectively creepy. Daniel Francis as Samedi doesn't give a bad performance but he could be any suave but shady man in a suit, and in his two (TWO) flashbacks there isn't much difference. When he's compared either to S1 Rumple or to the animated Dr Facilier he seems incredibly flat.

Now clearly the writers did realise they'd made a mistake by spreading their archetypes too thin, which is why Nick was a swing in the other direction by making their Katherine 2 (disposable fiance in the way of the main couple due to curse history) also be Hook 2 (fairytale character on a quest for vengeance) and Owen 2 (Knight Templar who hates magic due to childhood trauma). As we can see this did not do much to remedy things 😉.

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10 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

This season.was meant to recapture the magic of season 1 and a lot of the magic of season 1 was in its breakout villains, Regina and Rumplestiltskin. Since they wanted to make a bigger impact this season had two Reginas and two Rumpelstiltskins but ended up with a fraction of the charisma, interest or menace of the originals spread between them.

It's the "throw in everything, including the kitchen sink" style of writing. Instead of developing a few characters more deeply, they threw in more characters and developed none of them.

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