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ElectricBoogaloo

S03.E13: Will You Play With Me?

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I don't want to argue about it, I understand that people didn't like the character and that mileages vary.  I just never had any bigger problem with Julia compared to the other characters. I guess Stella Maeve always sold me on that desperation that Julia felt when she knew things weren't right and just didn't know why. I remember that argument she and Quentin had in the the third episode of the first season and how I could not believe how mean and dismissive he was towards her. Book Quentin was kind of a twat but he was never mean like that to her. I think she just gave up after that and I don't think she meant to really hurt him or think she was going to kill him. 

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On 4/5/2018 at 4:50 PM, Chris24601 said:

E) There's a Monster that even the gods are terrified that got loose because of the library's fuck up and its wearing Eliot (and clearly has pre-wipe Eliot's memories)

What makes you think the monster has Eliot’s memories? He knew to search for Quentin because Quentin met the monster and started to do a card trick for it. Quentin is the only friend the monster knows. 

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On 4/5/2018 at 3:34 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So where is Eliot's consciousness now that the monster is in his body? Is he trapped inside with him, forced to watch what the monster is doing? Or is he inside but unconscious until the monster leaves his body? And what happened to Ora's body after the monster jumped from her to Eliot?

I'm hoping Ora shows up and tries to get them all together or maybe she'll be trying to punish Eliot for what he did...either way that would answer the question of if Eliot can potentially be ok.

I kind of loved the fairy queen. I was sad to see her go but it was a badass and possibly genius way to go out.

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2 hours ago, festivus said:

I remember that argument she and Quentin had in the the third episode of the first season and how I could not believe how mean and dismissive he was towards her. Book Quentin was kind of a twat but he was never mean like that to her.

I rewatched that episode recently, and he is HORRIBLE in that argument. It's odd because they filmed it, shot it, as if it's just a disagreement between friends, but the things he actually says are just plain vile. She wants to know why he won't even *ask* them to give her a chance to achieve her dreams, and his response is bitterness and "You know how I felt about you. Admit it. Just admit it." So he's saying that, if only she'd had an intimate romantic relationship with him, then he'd help her career; being his best friend wasn't enough; he's punishing her for friendzoning him.

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On 4/5/2018 at 2:34 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It seems really dangerous to have all of these magicians who don't know they're magicians wandering around the world. Remember Quentin said he accidentally did magic before Brakebills? What if that happens to any of them and they hurt someone? On the other hand, at least Quentin/Brian seemed happy (or not miserable and depressed). Poor Margo/Janet (!) seemed pretty miserable though. Josh and Julia seemed fine, but poor Kady. I was actually relieved when all she did was hand over drugs. When the tinted window rolled down, I was afraid she was going to be a prostitute.

I was assuming there was no magic for magicians other than what is doled out by the library, so there won't be any accidental magic. It does beg the question: how could Brakebills locate potential students? They would have no verifiable magic ability until they stepped on campus.

It was a bit sad to see everyone anonymous and unaware, but the Kady one was such a messed up moment. Someone gave them lives and histories. Everyone gets a decent (if personally unsatisfactory one) except Kady, who is dealing on the streets? Couldn't even let her be the boss?

On 4/5/2018 at 6:22 AM, wayne67 said:


I am really curious as to what the consequences for a non fairy attacking a fairy considering that a Fairy Queen died for it. It could give Fairies an extreme advantage if non fairies can't hurt them even in self defense. 

Oh Elliot, the monster at the end of the world isn't a God, so using a God killing bullet to attack it was doomed to failure. Silly Rabbit. You could have tried finding a way to visit/talk to Quentin while he was on guard duty, for instance that magic to chat to someone in their dreams Quentins used to talk to Ora.

Really, humans, get yourselves a Fairy Lawyer. Words matter in forever binding contracts.

I do think it was short sighted to try to kill the monster. Surely the gods have better weapons than that. As Q pointed out, death wasn't permanent for Alice. Elliot was able to gollum away from Fillory and ultimately leave. They even spent a lifetime together that took a moment from their perspective. This might have had another solution. One that they had plenty of time to consider once magic was back.

On 4/5/2018 at 11:59 AM, Philbert said:

Since she got chopped up into little, bitty bits, I think that's a fair assumption at this point.

I mean, there is always a Fairy Queen 23. I do think her story is over though. 

On 4/5/2018 at 12:55 PM, iMonrey said:

Man, I'm really torn about this episode. I understand that they need to set something up for next season and they can't just say "And they all lived happily ever after." But damn. We watched these characters go to hell and back (literally) trying to get magic back and then they all get screwed over. It's really depressing and frustrating. Sure, I see the potential for a really great Season 4 ahead, but I really needed for them to get just a little bit of a win here. 

 

Agreed. The quest ended in absolute failure. Could there be more? What was up with the story about the keys disappearing and returning? Was it really a long dead god's power that made the quest so well tailored to them? I do feel slightly let down. I wanted some lightness in the resolution. Even a partial win. 

On 4/5/2018 at 8:22 PM, txvoodoo said:

 

Those have to be rewarded - by someone. I thought Iris was full of shit. I think she was there just to thwart the others. I wonder if she's part of a faction of gods that didn't want magic restored because without it, the gods were the only ones with juice.

I agree. Something was off about the whole thing. She felt a bit like the neon sign telling them to exit. She also wasn't much of a distraction. She could have done a lot more, presumably, to make Julia forget.

7 hours ago, rwlevin said:

But did Fen get her toes?  

I thought the same thing. I assume the whisper was about her baby or the deal, but I sorta wanted it to be about her toes (here, have some fairy toes). 

I did love a lot of things about the episode. Fen being wrecked about her former mortal enemy (and doing a pretty good job of ruling, apologies notwithstanding). The castle on the other side the entire time. The Dean's paperwork in triplicate (hey, I'm a lawyer). 

I did feel some of the characters were underutilized. I would have liked more interaction among them. Kady, Penny23 and Alice were all a bit fractured from the main group anyway. It reduced the impact of the reset.

I hope they dont draw out the bodyjumping monster and amnesia too long. Both feel a bit like repeats. 

Dont think I forgot about Marina 23, show. One has to assume she and the other hedgewitches are not high on the library's magic lending list. 

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I'm surprised that they all knew the Librarians' plans with that siphon, and that the Librarians have other travelers besides Penny - but the group still acted shocked and bamboozled when they show up once the magic kicked in? They should've joined together and started weaving wards around the fountain the moment they got it running again. It's a little disappointing to see them completely belly flop right at the end of their long saga.

I liked the ties to mythology, it gave their quest a cosmic weight, but I hope if they continue with it next season we could see an expanded universe with Native American Gods, Sub-Sahara African Gods, East Asian Gods, etc. We've already seen co-mingling, with Greco-Roman Persephone being the mother to Lorraine/Anglo-Saxon Reynard. It'd be interesting to see them invent a new mythos from what we already know.

Oof, not looking forward to an Alice-driven season four.  She's exhausting as a character, always so desperate and manic.  Hopefully someone else can pitch in. How do potions figure in to magic? Did Dean Fog have that memory potion made before magic went out, or, like magical creatures, do magical herbs and ingredients retain their magical attributes? Could Marina 23 and/or Penny 40 concoct an antidote for their amesia? I guess we'll have a whole year to speculate!

Edited by jaigurudeva
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I wonder if the Fairy Queen made her (gradually) into the new Fairy Queen, since she fought for the fairies’ rights as sovereign Fillorian citizens. I feel like it had to be big; something like getting her toes back would be mentioned.

ETA: I dearly wish this show gave us two 13-episode series; this waiting will be unimaginably cruel.

Edited by daisycat · Reason: Another thought...

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1 hour ago, daisycat said:

I wonder if the Fairy Queen made her (gradually) into the new Fairy Queen, since she fought for the fairies’ rights as sovereign Fillorian citizens. I feel like it had to be big; something like getting her toes back would be mentioned.

I do wonder if the Fairy Queen has a successor, were there a fairy prince or princess loitering in the Fairy Realm or do the fairies have to wait some unknown time for one of those fairy egg babies to mature into a Queen.

Perhaps Margo's fairy eye gives her standing in the Fairy community. 

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As much as I loved this season, and the show in general, the finale was very anti-climatic for me. In fact, I was  disappointed in this episode. The only part that really entertained me was Elliot's "Whore Crotches" for horcruxes confusion.

 

I am so over the Library already, and it looks like the next season is all about them. Argh! I'm calling safe word and begging for mercy already. Though I do find it interesting that a series based on a book, would create such a bad representation of libraries, which houses and reveres books. However, I was glad to see Quentin working in one, or a bookstore.

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You would think the Library would be a bit more concerned about the gang running around with their magic still there, but without any ways to control it. Didn't Elliot accidentally kill someone when he was a kid with his magic before he realized he had powers? Yeah the Library is in charge of magic now, but this still seems like a recipe for disaster. 

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On 4/5/2018 at 10:33 AM, mammaM said:

fuck this fucking show. I HATE HATE HATE cliffhangers! I'm going to watch next season, you don't have to always have to end the season with deathsorrowgriefmurderlosscrying. In fact, I want to post this on every single show ever: NO MORE CLIFFHANGER SEASON FINALES. 

 

On 4/5/2018 at 11:55 AM, iMonrey said:

I understand that they need to set something up for next season and they can't just say "And they all lived happily ever after." But damn. We watched these characters go to hell and back (literally) trying to get magic back and then they all get screwed over. It's really depressing and frustrating. Sure, I see the potential for a really great Season 4 ahead, but I really needed for them to get just a little bit of a win here.

 

On 4/6/2018 at 4:49 AM, AudienceofOne said:

You know, this season has been so well paced that I was looking forward to this. But this was like watching... all of season 2. About halfway through I realised it was all set up. So the "climax" fell completely flat because it was just a plot point of set up for season 4.

 

20 hours ago, The Companion said:

I do feel slightly let down. I wanted some lightness in the resolution. Even a partial win. 

 

6 hours ago, Richness said:

As much as I loved this season, and the show in general, the finale was very anti-climatic for me. In fact, I was  disappointed in this episode.

 

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Disappointing finale. Too many ass-pulls. 

After a great season, the showtellers made some disappointing choices.

All season we've been asking ourselves, will they get magic back, and how? What's going on with Julia's godhood? and other questions that have created tension while driving us through a storyline with some simply fantastic episodes along the way.

I would have loved the season so much more if the conflicts had been allowed to resolve, if the story questions we'd been asking all season had been answered; even if those answers subvert the questions and the characters decide that something is more important that the goal they've been pursuing, or other meaningful resolutions.

Give us the climax, the catharsis, the denouement. It worked for Sophocles and Shakespeare; it worked for Buffy and Doctor Who.

Instead it felt like, the producers knew this show has been renewed, so they spent the finale... setting up the next season.

Julia sacrificed her godhood to bring magic back to everybody; this could have been profound; perhaps the ultimate empowerment is a state where you empower others. But no, as it turns out, it was just a dumb mistake and now nobody has magic except the bad people and she's no god, whoops, she really shouldn't have done that.

Adding the next season's twist to this season instead of denouement means that no achievement has value, and the goals we were rooting for all season are irrelevant.

All this work of setting up for the next season's storylines... would have been so much better at the start of the next season.

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On 4/5/2018 at 2:36 AM, ElleMo said:

I did not see that ending coming.  I thought Alice took the mind wipe potion? Did they counter-act it?

I think she had not yet taken the mind wipe potion. Inside the castle she snorted fairy dust so she could magic-interfere and (unintentionally) trigger Julia's intervention.

On 4/5/2018 at 8:46 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It’s one thing for the Fairy Queen or Margo to make a deal on behalf of the people who they rule, but I thought the deal that McAllister and the FQ struck seemed destined to punish the non-fairies. Don’t get me wrong - McAllister is, as the FQ so accurately described, a mediocre, power-hungry girl. But the deal said if ANY creature harmed any fairy. McAllister can’t speak for all humans, let alone all living creatures. There’s no way to guarantee that no one else in all the universe will try to hurt a fairy.

My understanding is that the existence of the deal will prevent the not-fairies from attempting to do so, magically, so intent/accident is irrelevant. They simply won't be able to do it. Which, as the queen told McAllister directly, I'm sure she'll regret eventually. She did indeed promise-away the ability for self-defense.

The second Quentin mentioned the deal he made with Ora (oh hey look, another fucked up deal!) I knew he'd fucked them all over. Even without Elliot's actions, they were fucked anyway. I didn't write down the exact wording, so I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure what everyone kept warning the questers was "what's inside the castle must not be let out". So even though they weren't told directly "hey it can body switch", come on now, have they learned nothing about being very specific with the wording in magical warnings? His switcheroo deal, while well-intentioned, would've probably also let the monster out even without Elliot doing anything. I'm assuming here it wasn't the bullet that caused the monster to escape its vessel. I think it could do that all along at any moment. So the questers really needed to get in, get out, and not interact with the damn thing at all to have any chance of not letting it out.Since Quentin promised to stay, he fucked them all over by introducing the need to expose their presence to the monster. That was my read on it.

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I wonder if Marina23 has all of her magic memories since it was Julia 40 who helped Marina 40 get them back.  Still I like to think when Marina 23 learns magic is back for some, she’ll do something.  And I hope we see Penny 40 again too.

i wonder if this was also why Dean Fogg helped the library, to keep hedge witches from having magic.

theres a lot to do, a lot of people who need their comeuppance. I hope we get several seasons. 

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16 hours ago, owenthurman said:

Adding the next season's twist to this season instead of denouement means that no achievement has value, and the goals we were rooting for all season are irrelevant.

 

Well, technically, they did achieve their goal to bring magic back. The fountain has been turned on, and magic is back the way it used to be. Presumably, Fillory will have its magic back as well, and things will start working again there. Its just that the Library is controlling it all, and our heroes wont be able to really enjoy the magic that they got back. Really this finale reminded me a lot of the first season finale. The gang makes a whole big plot to achieve their goal, and they're super close to achieving it, when someone betrays them, and everyone is screwed over and left in an awful situation that they will have to resolve next season. I also wouldn't count Julia's godhood out just yet. I dont think she gave up being a goodness, exactly. She gave up a ton of power, but I think she might still be a goodness, or at least still have her spark, and that might end up being the key to getting everyone's memories back. Besides, I thought Julia's arc worked really well. She started the show trying to get magic for herself out of a selfish desire to have power, then screwed everyone over in a selfish (but understandable) desire for revenge, and then when she finally got power, she took what was power based around something horrible and used it to help others, she ended up sacrificing a lot of that power for the greater good. 

The Library itself seems like it might have bitten off more than it could chew when it decided to become the worlds magic broker. They seemed pretty stressed and overworked when we saw the Dean talking to Alice and applying for more magic, so by the time the heroes get their memories back, the Library might be willing to talk about reversing the whole mess anyway and making things the way they were again. Especially with the new monster on the loose. 

I watched a few first season episode the other day, as I haven't seen the first season in awhile, and, holy crap, everyone looked so young in the first season! And that was only a few years ago, both in story and out of story! I guess fighting evil, several near death (and actual death) experiences, and having to run your own country will age a person up pretty quickly.

Edited by tennisgurl
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I discovered and binged this series over Spring Break!  Glad the boards exist to help usher me through awesome series that I find later on.  I am enjoying the ride and find myself feeling randomly teary(happiness and sadness) from time to time. Though I’ll be hanging on to the edge of my seat with clenched teeth and hands until it returns, I have faith in the writers in giving our heroes a fighting chance. 

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On 4/7/2018 at 8:20 PM, theatremouse said:
On 4/5/2018 at 8:46 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It’s one thing for the Fairy Queen or Margo to make a deal on behalf of the people who they rule, but I thought the deal that McAllister and the FQ struck seemed destined to punish the non-fairies. Don’t get me wrong - McAllister is, as the FQ so accurately described, a mediocre, power-hungry girl. But the deal said if ANY creature harmed any fairy. McAllister can’t speak for all humans, let alone all living creatures. There’s no way to guarantee that no one else in all the universe will try to hurt a fairy.

My understanding is that the existence of the deal will prevent the not-fairies from attempting to do so, magically, so intent/accident is irrelevant. They simply won't be able to do it. Which, as the queen told McAllister directly, I'm sure she'll regret eventually. She did indeed promise-away the ability for self-defense.

That's an interesting take on it! I checked again, and the Fairy Queen's exact words were: "No fairy will be hunted by a non-fairy anywhere ever. And this deal cannot be broken for any reason by any being ever." (The use of the word "hunt" seems to create a loophole. Fairies can still be hurt or killed by non-fairies, just not deliberately as the result of hunting.) Later, she seems extremely certain that she got the better end of the deal. My read on it was that the McAllisters had made an impossible bargain, and the Fairy Queen knew it. Presumably, after making this bargain, it would be the McAllister's responsibility to communicate the bargain to "every being ever." Because as soon as any non-fairy (including, I assume, large predator animals, monster/god creatures, and inconsequential pests like mosquitoes) DOES hunt a fairy, the McAllisters will have broken their part of the deal, and the consequences could be applied very broadly. Do we know what the consequences are for humans and other beings who break a fairy deal? I remember Margot trying to back out of the deal she made... did she just get strongarmed into keeping it, or was there discussion of what would happen if she didn't hold up her end? I can't remember... In any case, this could be a way for the fairies to gain power over other beings, or as you say, it could make it impossible for fairies to be hunted (I hadn't considered that - I love the idea!) In any case, there's no way this was even remotely a smart decision for the McAllisters.

I loved this episode and thought it was a fabulous way to end the season. I can't wait for the next one!

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I'm still holding out on watching this episode, but I have one question.  Did Quentin use the but of magic that Julia gave him?  Or is he put there with a little bit of magic?  Hopefully he doesn't waste it.

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1 minute ago, treasaigh said:

I'm still holding out on watching this episode, but I have one question.  Did Quentin use the but of magic that Julia gave him?  Or is he put there with a little bit of magic?  Hopefully he doesn't waste it.

He uses the magic, he is empty by the end of the episode.

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I was actually surprised how quickly Quentin used the magic.  He didn't so much as tell anyone he had it and just up and used it.  I thought he might tell the others so they could plan on how best to use it.  It would be so much better if these people would communicate.  But then I guess we wouldn't have the disfunctional gang we know and love.

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That's too bad.  They used the demons in their backs very fast as well.  Don't they know how to hold on to stuff until they really, really need it.

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5 hours ago, treasaigh said:

They used the demons in their backs very fast as well

In their defense, they were cursed at the time and Quentin did use his to subdue niffin Alice. Alice was the only idiot who released her demon for no reason. 

I really don't like Alice. Initially I didn't like Julia but she gave up her god powers for the greater good. No, I cannot stand Alice. She can go away for good now. Become Cassandra or whatever. 

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18 hours ago, rwlevin said:

In their defense, they were cursed at the time and Quentin did use his to subdue niffin Alice. Alice was the only idiot who released her demon for no reason. 

I really don't like Alice. Initially I didn't like Julia but she gave up her god powers for the greater good. No, I cannot stand Alice. She can go away for good now. Become Cassandra or whatever. 

Agreed. So many times this season I was like, why are you all not just tying Alice up and keeping her out of your way? She was such a dick this season. 

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Overall, I'm in agreement with most everyone. I thought this season was much better than the last one. I'm not sure if it was because of the structured nature of the key quest that gave this season better direction or if the storyline itself was more engaging for me.

The Good

Almost everyone's storyline. I especially enjoyed story arcs for Julia, Margot, and Fen.

I'm glad they gave the Faerie Queen an actual story rather than just being an asshole to humans.

Good overall mix of humor and emotional, interesting drama.

Setup to season for against The Library. I'm looking forward to the conflict between The Library and our main characters.

The Bad

PostNiffinAlice continues to be an asshole and her addiction storyline is so boring. Typical, I can't be trusted with X so no one else can have it either.

The Meh

The unnamed BigBad. Using kids or innocents as the ultimate baddy is overplayed and not interesting to me. You can't give that type of personality nuance and I find black/white characters boring.

Penny's storyline this season just seemed as an aside and not really connected with the overall season arc. However, I am glad they brought in Penny23 so Arjun Gupta still gets screen time. I really enjoy his connection with the rest of the team even though Penny23 is a different person than Penny40.

 

As a separate topic, I'm rewatching Supernatural (currently on season 7) and I did not like Sera Gamble's interpretation of that show's tone compared to the initial seasons. However, I really think her writing style and tone matches this show really well.

I also looked on Wikipedia and noticed the writers for seasons 2 and 3 are essentially the same ones so it makes me wonder what happened to season 2? Season 3 was written so much better IMHO. Maybe it's because of the books; I haven't read the books so it's just speculation on my part.

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1 hour ago, Catfi9ht said:

I also looked on Wikipedia and noticed the writers for seasons 2 and 3 are essentially the same ones so it makes me wonder what happened to season 2? Season 3 was written so much better IMHO. Maybe it's because of the books; I haven't read the books so it's just speculation on my part.

I don't think the books had anything to do with it, since they only take smidgens from the books to create the plot.  I think S3 was better because there was a good over-arc story line, with the quest, Julia's magic. and maybe fairies.  The other subplots were added to fill things out, create some conflict, and place plot lines for next season.

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Quote

I also looked on Wikipedia and noticed the writers for seasons 2 and 3 are essentially the same ones so it makes me wonder what happened to season 2? Season 3 was written so much better IMHO. Maybe it's because of the books; I haven't read the books so it's just speculation on my part.

So,  I take it that you did not enjoy The Beast singing showtunes?

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Well, that was a cliffhanger of an ending! It will be a long wait.

I think Penny40 or Alice will somehow get them their memory back, as they are now the only ones who know who magicians really are. Or, Dean Fogg will regret his deal with the Library since they are being so stingy with Brakebills' allotment, so he will try to help defeat the Library. 

Evil Elliott will be a sight to see next season. 

I love that Margo is now Janet! 

Spoiler

She is Janet in the books.

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8 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I think Penny40 or Alice will somehow get them their memory back, as they are now the only ones who know who magicians really are. Or, Dean Fogg will regret his deal with the Library since they are being so stingy with Brakebills' allotment, so he will try to help defeat the Library. 

Don't forget about Marina 23. She's out there somewhere, she'll probably play some part in it. 

 

I agree that Evil Eliot is going to be fun. Knowing this show though I think that'll only last one episode, two tops.

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Just my two cents, after binging the first three seasons.

I was disappointed in the final episode. This was my favorite season, the characters seem to be hitting their stride. So many wonderful moments that make this show unique. I have watched the "Under Pressure" scene multiple times on YouTube. It all seemed to be coming together. Other parts of the finale seemed to work just fine, the Fairy Queen sacrificing for her people, Margo becoming High King and getting her eye back (a FAIRY eye, now), all the hard work on the quest, everything but the climax.

So, in a matter of minutes, we have:

  • Elliot shoots the monster to save Q (OK, didn't have a problem with that)
  • Alice makes a deal with the library to siphon off the magic
  • Alice freaks out and suddenly wants to prevent ALL magic
  • The monster can take over someone's body
  • The Dean has made a deal with the library
  • The douchebag librarian can travel to Blackspire, but Penny 23 couldn't?
  • Julia is suddenly a God, and just as suddenly she's not
  • The monster takes over Elliot and sets up the next season
  • We lose all the keys
  • We get back all the keys just as quickly
  • There are potions available to make everyone forget their memories and everyone willingly takes it

I'm sorry, but to me, the finale was a muddled, horrible mess with too many storylines and too many sudden revelations and changes. I like sudden revelations. I like when things turn on a dime. But not so many in the same scene! It seems all smashed together.

 

I realize characters sometimes do stupid things, but when people have to act stupid to advance the plot, it smacks of lazy writing.

  • If douchbag librarian can travel to Blackspire, why can't Penny 23 astral project there and do some recon?
  • Why does Q keep his single serving God power to himself, and piss it away so quickly?
  • Why didn't he just kill the monster with it?
  • Why didn't Q ask Ora for some information about the monster?
  • Why did Q rush to CONFRONT the monster? If the team had immediately used the keys, they all would have magic back.
  • Why wasn't the team prepared for Alice to act all crazy? She's already revealed she was willing to screw them all over, they should have kept an eye on her.
  • Why didn't someone use battle magic to stop Alice from casting? She took five minutes ginning up the spell.
  • Why did Dean Fogg make a deal with the library? He would have had magic back, unregulated by the library, if he had supported the team.

Biggest question of all:

  • Why did the writers spend most of a season drawing up an incredibly involved and fascinating quest, just to screw up the resolution in the last ten minutes of the episode? Any other kind of ending would have been better.
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