S07.E15: Sisterhood

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

There really are a lot of parallels between Drizella and Regina, aren't there? Both cursed an entire society because they were mad at one person. Both had plans to do something awful that got thwarted, and then because they were willing to "sacrifice" themselves after their plans were thwarted and they ended up in jeopardy, they get totally forgiven and face no further repercussions for all the evil they did.

Which makes it all the more surprising that they wrote her out.  I wonder if they would have tried to keep her if they had been renewed for Season 8.

[tennisgurl]

@KingOfHearts dont scare us like that! We`re so close to freedom! 

I will never understand this shows weird obsession with "lets focus on redeeming our villain by showing them doing even MORE evil crap and only back out of evil when things go south!" as a way to make us feel for these villains. Its so bizarre, and it just kills any redemption they were looking for. Like, I was all for Ivy being redeemed, but its hard to do that when she seemed totally ready to murder her own sister, and basically blamed Gothel for all her bad choices, and we flash back to her killing her new friend for power. No wonder Regina was her magic mentor for awhile, she really is just like her. "Its not my fault, I was manipulated by Rumple/Gothel!" over and over. I mean, at least Ivy actually said she was sorry at least though. And as much as I feel her character was wasted after being the character with the most potential, I will miss AK, who did a lot with everything she had, and I hope she finds something new to do soon. Maybe the CW needs a anti heroine? 

So, Nick is the witch serial killer? ...What a twist? So, he really IS just like Abigail as the plot device person who gets between the cursed OTP! Except we got to know Abigail, she avoided the cliche to be a sympathetic character, we saw Charming struggle with Abigail and Mary Margaret, and she got her own happy ending with her true love. But here, I guess Nick is just the villain so he cant be in the middle of those two boring idiots who have somehow less chemistry than Grumpy and Cinderella. Does that mean he is the villain, because he suffered at the hands of a witch, and now he wants to kill them? Because, if he is killing members of an evil Coven, what he is doing is more morally ambiguous than evil, right? Yeah, killing people is bad, but its more like being The Punisher than being Hannibal Lecter. Because, arent the Clothes Hangers evil, or are they not? Its not like we know who they are, or what their plan is, so how are we supposed to know how to feel about this twist? Or are some of the witches not evil, and he is just a big magic racist? In that case, this is a much bigger issue, and the guy is a much more evil villain. But, we dont know, so why should I care? Except its just more of the same. The villains are the victims, and the victims are the villains. Its Percival and Greg all over again. "stop trying to stop evil, victims of violence and misery! Just tell the your families murderer everything is cool, even if they dont bother apologizing!" 

So I think we know why they dont bother writing "people hanging out being normal" scenes. They suck at them now. Maybe because the Rogers/Nick/Henry banter was hilariously awkward, in a bad way, or because they mostly talked about boring romance stuff, or because the writers really seem to want to write a show set in the 80s. Or because that slow motion intro was both super obvious, and super stupid. I just dont care even a little bit about this romance, its so freaking boring. And, they dont even have the epic star crossed thing that cursed Charmings had, because there is literally nothing standing in the way of them being together, Yeah Henry will supposedly die, but they dont know that! And I dont get why we are getting this awkward bonding session with the guys. Its just...not working. Sometimes awkward can be funny and charming, but here? It feels super forced. 

Super glad to get more information about Sabine and cursed Naveen and his deal with Faciliar, and Rogers connecting with Tilly again, and Robin and Zelena coming together again! Boy, I sure do love follow up!

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

because there is literally nothing standing in the way of them being together, Yeah Henry will supposedly die, but they dont know that!

The Writers of this episode forgot that there was something standing in the way of them being together - Lucy's supposed disapproval. 

If they wanted to do the stuff about Jacinda wanting to find out if it's fate, then that should have been in 7A when she was trying to decide if she wanted to date Henry or not.  Based on what happened in the last few episodes, Jacinda already knows she wants to be with Henry.  The question is whether she is going to listen to Lucy or not.  So the whole dumb coin throwing in this episode actually made no narrative sense.

Now that we know the witch killer is Nick, I think it's time to give kudos to the Writers for showing Dr. Facilier putting on black gloves as a red herring.  Well played, gentlemen!  We fell for it whook, whine and winker.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Now that we know the witch killer is Nick, I think it's time to give kudos to the Writers for showing Dr. Facilier putting on black gloves as a red herring.  Well played, gentlemen!  We fell for it whook, whine and winker.

I have to admit, it's pretty easy to follow a misdirect when it's literally the only clue given until the reveal episode.

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

:-p You got me. hehe

I pulled up that April Fools post I made a couple years ago praising Regina and Rumple and complaining about the heroes. That was a good laugh.

51 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

we flash back to her killing her new friend for power.

The "you need to prove you're willing to kill someone" trope has been used throughout the show. The two examples being Rumple testing Regina with the horse or Regina sending Hook to kill his own father. However, the difference here is that Drizella was forced to kill Gretel in self-defense. Plus, she had already killed someone in coldblood. How does stabbing someone who has a dagger pointing at your neck prove you're a villainous witch? Man, Drizella's arc made no sense. It was like a condensed version of Regina's. For a show that's about "evil isn't born, it's made", we never really saw the transition for those two characters. 

55 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Super glad to get more information about Sabine and cursed Naveen and his deal with Faciliar, and Rogers connecting with Tilly again, and Robin and Zelena coming together again! Boy, I sure do love follow up!

I wish next week's episode was entirely comprised of what happened offscreen in this one. Lost did that sort of thing multiple times, I believe.

[tennisgurl]

Why does every witch in this show use the freaking force choke on people? Can they not think of one other thing to do with their ill defined but plentiful powers?

Edited April 1, 2018 by tennisgurl

[txhorns79]

Quote

Maybe because the Rogers/Nick/Henry banter was hilariously awkward, in a bad way, or because they mostly talked about boring romance stuff, or because the writers really seem to want to write a show set in the 80s.

I am very confused about Henry's age.  I mean, I guess you could say the curse gave him the memories of someone who grew up in the 80s to make him close in age to the actor who plays him, but wasn't Henry born in 2000 or around then? 

[Camera One]

21 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I am very confused about Henry's age.  I mean, I guess you could say the curse gave him the memories of someone who grew up in the 80s to make him close in age to the actor who plays him, but wasn't Henry born in 2000 or around then? 

I think it was supposed to work both ways. 

Andrew J. West who plays Adult Henry was born in 1983, so if Adult Henry is the same age, then his Cursed childhood would have been in the 80s and 90s (logically, he should be more into 90s music/movies since he was a very small child in the 1980s). 

Meanwhile, Child Henry was born around Year 2000, but the town of Storybrooke was perpetually stuck in the 1980s so that's why he grew up with 80s stuff.  In Season 5 and 6, Henry was always introducing Violet to 80s songs and movies.

The real-life reason is because Adam and Eddy are obsessed with the 1980s since they were both born in the early 1970s so they were teenagers/young adults in the 1980s.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The real-life reason is because Adam and Eddy are obsessed with the 1980s since they were both born in the early 1970s so they were teenagers/young adults in the 1980s.

1980s nostalgia is big right now, but A&E can never seem to do it correctly. It always comes off as cringey and self-absorbed. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[snarkastic]

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

Andrew J. West who plays Adult Henry was born in 1983, so if Adult Henry is the same age, then his Cursed childhood would have been in the 80s and 90s (logically, he should be more into 90s music/movies since he was a very small child in the 1980s).

 

As someone also born in 1983... ???????? Like, I'll call out the unlikelihood of Emma knowing about Harry Potter at 14, because no way. But that's just not true.

22 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

1980s nostalgia is big right now, but A&E can never seem to do it correctly. It always comes off as cringey and self-absorbed. 

 

Now that, I agree with. Cringey and self-absorbed are their middle names.

Edited April 3, 2018 by snarkastic

[Camera One]

13 minutes ago, snarkastic said:

But I'm not sure why you think he'd automatically like the 90s more just because of when he was born? I mean, bash A&E for projecting their obsession all you want, but people do know music/movies from when they are children or *gasp* before they were born.

All I was trying to say is that a lot of people tend to be nostalgic about music and movies that were popular in their teenage years.  And someone born in 1983 would be a teenager during the 1990s, so that was a higher likelihood.  However, I'm definitely not claiming that it was impossible for teenagers from the 90s to like music from before their time, and sorry to offend you.  I was also a teenager in the 90s and I preferred music from the 60s and 70s because that was what my parents listened to.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

All I was trying to say is that a lot of people tend to be nostalgic about music and movies that were popular in their teenage years.  And someone born in 1983 would be a teenager during the 1990s, so that was a higher likelihood.  However, I'm definitely not claiming that it was impossible for teenagers from the 90s to like music from before their time, and sorry to offend you.  I was also a teenager in the 90s and I preferred music from the 60s and 70s because that was what my parents listened to.

I think your theory that Storybrooke was frozen at Emma's time of birth is the most likely explanation.  Basically Henry was limited to media that was in the library or in the record store when Storybrooke was created.  Then they skipped over the 90s and 00s.

Now I will say I am a medical marvel.  I have near perfect recall of age in the womb to 12 months.  I know this from being dumbfounded by I love the 70's marathons and learning that stuff that lives perfectly in my mind as a memory of my childhood happened before I could remember it.  Its either fads repeating themselves or the older generations (or reruns) passing down pop culture to the younger generations.  Vut that wouldn't happen in storybrooke.

[Camera One]

Yeah, Henry in Storybrooke stuck in the 80s definitely makes sense.  I'm not sure why he was so obsessed with "The Breakfast Club" and "Sixteen Candles", though.  Was it because of Neal, or Storybrooke's video store or what?  This episode also showed Adult Henry geeking out about the 80s with playing arcade games from the era, and namedropping of DEFCON 1 from 1983 movie "WarGames"?  

I wonder if we will see more of Jack in flashback next week.  Here was his first conversation on the show (practically the only thing we know about him is from a single conversation in Episode 8) -

HENRY: Why you slimy, double-crossing, no-good swindler!  You got a lot of guts coming here, after what you pulled.
<they lunge at each other, but end up hugging and laughing>
NICK/JACK/HANSEL: You know, one of these days you're gonna have to take me back to your land and show me this "Star Wars" thing.
HENRY: That's the "Empire Strikes Back," but close enough. What are you doing here, Jack? I thought you were in Agrabah.
NICK/JACK/HANSEL: What are you doing here? I thought you were going back to Storybrooke after we escaped those giants.
HENRY: Yeah, I took a bit of a detour. Ella, this is Jack, the first friend I met in this realm. 

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

HENRY: Why you slimy, double-crossing, no-good swindler!  You got a lot of guts coming here, after what you pulled.
<they lunge at each other, but end up hugging and laughing>

It gives me second-hand embarrassment even reading this. Why, A&E? Why??

[Camera One]

Do you all think Jack going to Agrabah before showing up is going to be significant? 

You know who else is evil in Agrabah whose name also starts with J... Jasmine.  Wouldn't it be cool if Disenchanted Jasmine coveted a spot in the Coven and got Jack to kill the witches?

Or wouldn't it be cool if Jack made a wish and this is Wish Realm Hansel who is killing and Henry's BFF Hansel is stuck somewhere?

Or wouldn't it be cool if Jack is Jack Pumpkinhead and Nick Chopper in one and he has a secret past with Zelena?  

Or wouldn't it be cool if Jack got a stash of magic beans from the Giants and that's how they will leave Hyperion Heights?

I know I shouldn't be revealing A&E's secret but wouldn't it be cool if Hansel = Han Solo if they had gotten a Season 8?

Edited April 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

I know I shouldn't be revealing A&E's secret but wouldn't it be cool if Hansel = Han Solo if they had gotten a Season 8?

OMG. We really missed out!!

[darkestboy]

Nick being the Candy Killer and I assume Hansel, eh, feels like a safe enough choice though it looks like that story will be done by the next episode.

Good enough exit as such for Drizella and Anastasia, albeit a tad rushed as well. Nice to see Gothel lose a bit.

Facilier is a great character but he should've been utilised a lot earlier this season as well. I almost kind of want him to win against Rumple. Still not too sure about his feelings for Regina.

I did like the Drizella/Gretal team up in flashbacks before it ended horribly.

Henry/Jacinda - nope, still don't care, 7/10

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

All I was trying to say is that a lot of people tend to be nostalgic about music and movies that were popular in their teenage years.  And someone born in 1983 would be a teenager during the 1990s, so that was a higher likelihood. 

There is also the sort of pseudo nostalgia for the things you feel like you just missed, where you were old enough to be aware of them but not old enough to really participate in that thing. I'm an 80s teen of the John Hughes generation (his high school movies came out when I was in high school), but when I was in college and in my early 20s, one of the popular things at nightclubs was "Trash Disco," and they would have disco weekends on the radio. People my age were old enough to have heard disco music on the radio or even to have owned those records, but we were too young to have actually gone to a disco, so there was a nostalgia wave of people actually trying to experience those times for themselves. Then when I was in my late 20s/early 30s and the kids who'd been children during the early 80s New Wave and John Hughes years were in college or their early 20s, that was when Retro 80s became the big thing at night clubs and on the radio. I think I heard "Don't You Forget About Me" and "If You Leave" more times on the radio during the late 90s than during the 80s. So I can buy that cursed Henry would be into that stuff (if we're pretending that the character is meant to be about the same age as the actor, never mind that the character has a daughter older than 8 who was born when he was 31). Real Henry is into that stuff because he grew up in a town that was mostly frozen in time after being created in the early 80s.

[mythoughtis]

Hyperion heights was created the same way Storybrooke was created. Regina didn’t know anything about this realm for the first curse.. So Drizella must not have needed to either. 

The episodes have been getting better. Too bad the viewers  haven’t stayed. They would have been better served to bring the recurring characters from Storybrook to Hyperion Heights somehow.     

[tennisgurl]

The weird thing about Storybrooke being stuck in the 80s is that Henry seems to be the only one to have experiences that. Everyone else dresses and acts like its the mid 00s to now, complete with phones and fashion trends, but Henry is this random nostalgic 80s kid in the 00s who tries to seduce girls from the middle ages with Harold and Maude. 

But, Storybrooke being stuck in the 80s makes a ton of sense, with it being frozen in time forever in one time, but its weird that Henry seems to be the only one who seems to remember that. 

[Shanna Marie]

48 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The weird thing about Storybrooke being stuck in the 80s is that Henry seems to be the only one to have experiences that. Everyone else dresses and acts like its the mid 00s to now, complete with phones and fashion trends, but Henry is this random nostalgic 80s kid in the 00s who tries to seduce girls from the middle ages with Harold and Maude. 

It doesn't seem like anyone else in Storybrooke is into any kind of pop culture at all. Henry doesn't really dress 80s and has a current phone, so in that respect, he's like everyone else in town. He just seems to be the only person in town who listens to music or watches movies. Is there even a movie theater in town? As far as I can recall, the only reference to television was Aurora talking about the "devil box" in her room at Granny's. Emma make a remark about watching Netflix, and Hook was up for it although he didn't know what it was. But we never saw anyone watching anything. I think Henry was about the only person playing anything on the jukebox at Granny's.

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The weird thing about Storybrooke being stuck in the 80s is that Henry seems to be the only one to have experiences that. Everyone else dresses and acts like its the mid 00s to now, complete with phones and fashion trends, but Henry is this random nostalgic 80s kid in the 00s who tries to seduce girls from the middle ages with Harold and Maude. 

But, Storybrooke being stuck in the 80s makes a ton of sense, with it being frozen in time forever in one time, but its weird that Henry seems to be the only one who seems to remember that. 

But Henry was also the only one who was awake when they were in the frozen 80s so maybe that is how he filled time, listening to music and watching movies.  Then maybe when the curse was broken, Storybrooke got updated to the 00s so no one else has an 80s depth of knowledge.

[KAOS Agent]

Henry was 10 when the curse broke. His childhood wouldn't have involved John Hughes movies and 80s rock music, it would have been Care Bears and Muppet Babies and Inspector Gadget. I'll give them Star Wars, but little kids aren't listening to Yaz or watching The Breakfast Club unless there is an older sibling in the house. I guarantee you Regina wasn't interested in that kind of thing.  His year in New York would have turned him on to modern pop culture and his teen years in Storybrooke would also have been largely focused on the new millennium. The 80s thing is strictly the writers indulging themselves rather than applying a realistic sense of what an 8 year old in the 80s would have been watching/listening to. 

Adult Henry is even more of a writers self insert than Kid Henry and it makes the character have some really cringeworthy moments. He's just weird with his mix tapes (where are these people even getting tape players and recorders to make and listen to them?) and reenacting moments from movies to Enchanted Forest people who don't even know what a movie is.

Edited April 4, 2018 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Henry was 10 when the curse broke. His childhood wouldn't have involved John Hughes movies and 80s rock music, it would have been Care Bears and Muppet Babies and Inspector Gadget. I'll give them Star Wars, but little kids aren't listening to Yaz or watching The Breakfast Club unless there is an older sibling in the house.

I didn't even see The Breakfast Club until I was in college, and it came out when I was in high school.

Once Henry was in his teens and old enough to not think something like The Breakfast Club was pretty boring, he was too busy dealing with this week's incursion by villains wanting to take over Storybrooke or journeys to Camelot, the Underworld, etc., to spend much time watching movies.

I'm in the mix tape generation, still have cassette decks (including dual decks, for ultimate mix tape creation), but even I'll burn a playlist to CD if I want to share music with someone because you can't be certain anyone will have a cassette deck. I think the last time I made a tape for someone was in the 90s. I last made a tape for myself in about 2007, but that was because the car I had then still had a cassette deck, so the way I put together music for road trips was to make a playlist, burn a CD, then record the CD. I find it incredibly hard to believe that someone as much younger than I am as HH adult Henry is would be making mix tapes. The iPod would have come out while he was still a teenager, and computers then would already have been capable of burning music or MP3 CDs as a pretty standard feature, so I'm not sure he'd have ever made a mix tape, and the odds of him meeting a woman who thought a mix tape was meaningful instead of wondering how she was going to play it would be slim. It makes a bit more sense if Henry and Jacinda were meant to be the ages their characters should be, based on clues in the timeline, which would put them into their 40s, but nobody in HH seems to be the age they really should be.

[Rushmoras]

Jeez, Drizella and her sis are suffering from bipolar disorder. Bitch, she just tried to sacrifice you. The only reason you are alive is that Mother Dreadlocks woke you up in time. Your sis does not love... ah, forget it. 

Rumple, you are useless as a cop and a former DO this season. Go jump off a bridge, maybe that will kill you.

So, Facilier is not the killer. The killer is Nick? Funny, cause the person who attacked Ivy looked to me kinda skinny, while Nick is bulky and muscular. He could have easily manhandled Ivy and killed her. Also, did they get his mask from Valentine (2001) props or Der Clown?

[Camera One]

Who needs "Frozen" when you can watch this moving story of sisters?  

This episode was a convoluted mess.  

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Who needs "Frozen" when you can watch this moving story of sisters?  

This episode was a convoluted mess.  

It's the "we need to get rid of Anastasia and Ivy" episode.

Edited November 30, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

On rewatch, this was an even worse episode with many problems.  

I was struck by how often characters knew stuff for no reason.  Ivy knew that the serial killer was handing out chocolates.  Rumple already knew that Facilier was after his dagger.  Rumple knew that Anastasia had escaped.  Regina knew just where to find Rumple.  Facilier knew that Ivy had been attacked in the parking garage.  

Meanwhile, Gothel was interested in Anastasia because she was the purer than driven snow possible Guardian.  Yet she yelled "KILL HER NOW" at Anastasia expecting her to kill her own sister?  Is Gothel dumber than a head of lettuce?

The Cheaper Version of the Hunger Games made no sense either.  Why wouldn't Gothel want a bigger following of witches?  She could choose 8 when she needed it.  Why would she even want Drizella after seeing that she ONLY killed Gretel due to self-defence?  What happened to the other 6 witch candidates?

The last time we saw Anastasia was in Episode 11 when Gothel erased her memory and told her to "rest" after her magic filled the resurrection stone (which is not in play anymore).  But then this episode, apparently Anastasia had run away.  How could a 13-year-old girl with no knowledge of the modern world survive for that long on her own?  Surely, Gothel or even Weaver could have found her in the last few episodes when we heard nothing about the missing Anastasia.

I noticed that the scene with Ivy being attacked in the parking garage was immediately followed by a scene of the bar with Henry and Hook, and then shortly after, Hansel walked in.  He had no marks of being in a struggle or being sprayed with pepper spray indirectly.  I suppose some time could have elapsed between the parking garage and the bar but overall, this was a really cheap trick.  There's no way Hansel could have gotten to that bar that fast.

Why didn't Regina ask Anastasia for some magic before she left?  

Edited November 30, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

Meanwhile, Gothel was interested in Anastasia because she was the purer than driven snow possible Guardian.  Yet she yelled "KILL HER NOW" at Anastasia expecting her to kill her own sister?  Is Gothel dumber than a head of lettuce?

I came to the conclusion that the writers were aliens wearing human suits who have no concept of how people actually act. Like in this instance. Or Anastasia being totally okay with Ivy 30 seconds after Ivy was going to either sap her magic or kill her and after Ivy played upon her feelings in order to trick and trap her. But sisters!

Or there's Jacinda, having a girls' night out with Sabine and instead of hanging out with her friend while they wait for a table, the way people generally do, she leaves her friend at the restaurant to wait and goes off to an arcade/bar by herself. She didn't know Henry and the guys were going to be there. Was she planning to just hang out playing video games alone while Sabine stayed at the restaurant by herself? Can they not sit and talk if they're not sitting at a table? I noticed in my post after this first aired that my easy fix was for them to have run into Drew at the restaurant, and Jacinda made herself scarce.

I really hate their reliance on fate for whether or not they're made for each other or should date. That's the laziest shortcut. Basically, Jacinda and Henry are Robin and Regina 2.0. They only seem to be into each other because something glowed or a coin flip came out a certain way, and all they talk to each other about is the question of whether they're meant for each other. They don't seem to have any interests in common. They're just together because (in the past) a necklace glowed and (in the present) Lucy told them they were married in a story.

I maintain the belief that they didn't decide who the killer was until this episode. They might even have added the tag about Jack's car after they'd shot the rest of the episode (since he didn't seem to be showing any signs of having been tear gassed). None of the behavior of the characters in the previous episodes makes sense with him as the killer.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Or Anastasia being totally okay with Ivy 30 seconds after Ivy was going to either sap her magic or kill her and after Ivy played upon her feelings in order to trick and trap her. But sisters!

This show is not just about romantic love.  It's about the strength of the sibling bond.

Quote

Was she planning to just hang out playing video games alone while Sabine stayed at the restaurant by herself?

Not to be sexist, but maybe it's the kind of thing guys might do.  Maybe Adam and Eddy are writing from personal experience?  Who can pass up an arcade?

Quote

I maintain the belief that they didn't decide who the killer was until this episode. They might even have added the tag about Jack's car after they'd shot the rest of the episode (since he didn't seem to be showing any signs of having been tear gassed). None of the behavior of the characters in the previous episodes makes sense with him as the killer.

The whole reason why they did the dumb bromance meet-up was to set up the shocking reveal of Jack's car trunk.  I think they did write this episode with the intention of the poorly written and cheap shot surprise ending.  None of us could have guessed because who knew someone who was just hit and pepper sprayed would reply to a hangout opportunity with Henry!  The same episode, they used Dr. Facilier as the decoy because he was the only other real suspect here.

So I watched the next few deleted scenes from Season 7, and two scenes explain Anastasia running away from Gothel.  I just can't figure out what episode that was supposed to happen in.  I suspect these two cut scenes might have originally been in the previous episode "The Girl in the Tower".  Because Ivy appears at the beginning of that one and then goes MIA.  

In the first scene, Ivy is holding the doll, and looks for Anastasia in the well where Ivy was held captive.  Gothel appears out of the shadows and taunts her.  In this scene, Ivy also reveals that Gothel wants the Dark One's powers (seriously???)

Spoiler

For what, exactly?  Especially for an ex-wood nymph.

In the next scene, Ivy somehow catches up to Gothel and Anastasia.  Ivy makes a moving plea to Anastasia to join her and tells Anastasia that Gothel killed Victoria.  Anastasia is upset and uses a blast of magic to temporarily stun Ivy and Gothel, and Anastasia runs off.

If these two scenes were in the preceding episode, I wonder which scenes replaced them.  Was it the scenes involving Lucy sneaking into Dr. Facilier's apartment subplot?  Scenes with Regina and Zelena?  Flashbacks of Alice and Robyn?  They could easily have removed the entire Lucy subplot and have Regina see the tarot cards and ask Dr. Facilier and he could have just said the shocking truth that he, like all of humanity, wants the Dark One Dagger.  The actress who played Alice said they cut a scene with Alice eating mochi.  There was also the deleted scene of Rogers and Henry talking to Jacinda at the food truck.  They sure filmed a lot of material for "The Girl in the Tower".

Edited November 30, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

The whole reason why they did the dumb bromance meet-up was to set up the shocking reveal of Jack's car trunk. 

Well, they also had to have the other guys there to tell Henry how great he and Jacinda would be together and to set up the moment when he said he'd ask out the next woman to come through the door.

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

Not to be sexist, but maybe it's the kind of thing guys might do.  Maybe Adam and Eddy are writing from personal experience?  Who can pass up an arcade?

You know, with Jacinda ditching Sabine to go play at the arcade while Sabine waits for a table and with the guys sitting around talking about relationships, maybe they were doing a subtle flip of gender stereotypes.

It was such a huge missed opportunity that Lucy never did figure out who the fairytale people were on her own. She decides that Jacinda is Cinderella based on the epilogue to the book and possibly the fact that she has an evil stepmother and stepsister (but only one), but she has to have Roni tell her that Rogers, the British-accented guy with one hand whose name is Rogers, as in Jolly, is Captain Hook. I'd been waiting all season for them to have some fun with that, like Lucy thinking that Rogers was Hook Prime, out of the book, and there being some confusion (the way they set it up to make us think Rogers was Hook Prime at the beginning of the season, only to have the surprise twist that it was Wish Hook). But no, Roni just tells her (and doesn't even clarify that it's not the Hook in her book), and Lucy's reactions is just like, "Okay." Season one Henry had figured out who just about everyone in town was before he went to get Emma.

For the flashbacks, it would have been a lot more apt to focus on Drizella and Anastasia than doing their random Hunger Games thing. They could have shown more of their past relationship, then gone into Drizella's reaction to Anastasia's death and how she ended up turning bitter about the way her mother obsessed. That would still have been in the era of the Rapunzel actress, so even if they'd ditched Victoria, they could have shown something of the sisters and how all that worked. The Hunger Games was an even dumber test than Regina thinking that Hook killing the father who'd abandoned him meant he'd have no problem with Cora, who was a total stranger with no emotional ties to him.

[Camera One]

25 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

For the flashbacks, it would have been a lot more apt to focus on Drizella and Anastasia than doing their random Hunger Games thing. They could have shown more of their past relationship, then gone into Drizella's reaction to Anastasia's death and how she ended up turning bitter about the way her mother obsessed. That would still have been in the era of the Rapunzel actress, so even if they'd ditched Victoria, they could have shown something of the sisters and how all that worked. The Hunger Games was an even dumber test than Regina thinking that Hook killing the father who'd abandoned him meant he'd have no problem with Cora, who was a total stranger with no emotional ties to him.

On the one hand, their flashback was supposed to lead to the shocking reveal that Nick/Hansel was the serial killer.  I suppose that's why Gretel had to figure prominently. 

It looks like they tried to include a bit of the Drizella/Anastasia relationship by having the flashback with them as children and Drizella admiring Anastasia as her elder sister.  The next flashback scene was Drizella bitterly telling Anastasia in the coffin that she was in her shadow for too long.  It was abrupt and hard to sympathesize with Drizella.  I think that transition was more important to show than this moment in time when Drizella was already evil and had committed murders with no remorse.  Though supposedly Drizella bonded with Gretel partly because they both had lost a sibling, so Anastasia's memory did stop Drizella from killing Gretel, until she was forced to in self-defence.  

I suppose they did do a bit of thinking to come up with this flashback, but I would still give it a thumbs down.

How did Mother Gothel garner such positive publicity for her Coven, anyway?   I don't think we ever saw any actual advantage of being in the sisterhood.

[tennisgurl]

So first of all, why are young Anastasia and Drizella playing hide and seek in the middle of the creepy woods during a creepy rainy fog? Where the hell are their dad and Cinders mom?! I always forget that Anastasia was actually the older sister, which you would think would create an interesting dynamic where the older sister who used to look after her little sister was now the child while her little sister is an adult, but that would mean any of Drizellas characterization made any sense. She is really one of the biggest disappointments of the season (which was just a disappointment in general) considering she had a lot of potential as a character and was played by one of the best performers of the newbies, but she ended up being all over the place. One second she loves her sister and wants a family, the next she hates and resents her sister but still wants a family (so where was Ella at this point anyway? When did they stop being close?) the next she is pure evil the next she is conflicted the next she is turning her sister over to possibly die or at least get hurt, the next she is good again and just wants sister time, its just a hot mess. Lord knows Adeline Kane tries to make this work, but this is all such a mess not even she can save it. 

So...where the hell did they actually go anyway? Just some other random world? Are they prepared to live there? Is it safe? Does the Disenchated Forrest exist still, and thats where they went? Or did they just wander into some Mad Max death world they are in no way prepared for? And if Gothel wants Anna to be her super special best person ever, why was she trying to get her to hack her sister to death? Honestly, no ones motives here, not Drizella, Temaine, Gothel, or anyone involved have motivations that make any sense or are in any way consistent, they seem to just change based on the scene. And of course why would we want to let Ella and Drizella talk, that might actually be interesting, we cant have that! She is busy ditching her best friend to have really boring banter with this really boring guy! All of the flashbacks are just so boring and random, especially with Gothel and her random sister witch circle (which sounds intensely unappealing and I have no idea how she can get people to jump through these literal hoops for her) and Gretel awkwardly shoehorned in, eating candy of course because STORYBOOK!

Seriously, what the hell even was that arcade scene? It was all so awkward, I guess this is why we dont get many scenes of people just hanging out and being normal, A&E have no clue what normal human interaction is actually like! So did Jacinda just wander into this arcade while Sabine was waiting on their table, and just ditch her? Was she just planning on going in there to play video games by herself and leave Sabine alone to wait for their table? The fuck? And then did she just go home? What a shitty friend! And poor Sabine/Tiana has no idea that her other pal Roni/Regina is knocking boots with the man who kidnapped and enslaved her love interest! Poor woman just has the worst luck with friends. And of course Jacinda and Henry have to rely on fate to get them together, no way could the audience want to actually watch people fall in love like normal people would! We need some magic bullshit, these two are too unappealing to be interesting on their own. 

You know, at least Henry as a kid had to do some actual work to figure out who people were in the EF, Lucy just reads a book and has Regina explain every damn thing. 

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So first of all, why are young Anastasia and Drizella playing hide and seek in the middle of the creepy woods during a creepy rainy fog? Where the hell are their dad and Cinders mom?!

LOL, good question.  This flashback was the first confirmation that the girls (well, Anastasia) could do magic.  But who did they get that from?  Rapunzel or Marcus?  Neither seemed magically gifted.

Quote

I always forget that Anastasia was actually the older sister, which you would think would create an interesting dynamic where the older sister who used to look after her little sister was now the child while her little sister is an adult, but that would mean any of Drizellas characterization made any sense.

I had forgotten that too.  I'm not sure what we're supposed to think of Anastasia as a character.  This show made her seem like an object or possession desired by others.  First by Victoria, then Drizella, then Weaver, then Gothel, and then Dr. Facilier.  It was pretty horrible.  Jacinda never even found out she had been resurrected.  If we had actually cared about any of these characters, it would have been disappointing.

This season had one amazing feat.  I am rarely able watch an entire season and be so entertained even though I couldn't care less about almost all of the characters.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Camera One

[Speakeasy]

The scene where she betrays Anastasia and tearfully confesses that 'if it's a choice between you and me, I choose me', remorseful and hating herself but also accepting her own weakness, is really well done, but it belongs in a better story where there was a better reason for her to betray her sister.

As is, it's hardly as if handing her over to be sacrificed is her only option. It bears noting: Ivy Belfry is a millionaire, why does she not grab her sister, get her a fake passport and head off to Australia? All the murders are taking place in the small area of downtown Seattle inhabited by fairytale characters, I doubt the killer has the resources to chase them around the world. At any rate it's a better plan than trusting Baron Samedi, who is obviously sketchy even if she doesn't know him and looks worse and worse if she does, and Gothel, who has sold her out at every possible opportunity. They have a whole flashback sequence about Drizella realising what an awful monster Old Dreads really is, years ago, three weeks ago the woman tried to sacrifice her for NO REASON AT ALL, the day after draining her magic and throwing her down a well.

God knows Adelaide Kane really made an effort, and there was a great antiheroine waiting to break out of this mess, but the character on the screen was not just evil, she was too dumb to live. 

Case in point, evd of the episode. Again, take your sister to Australia, or Connecticut or France or literally anywhere that puts a few thousand miles between you and candyman. Is it a perfect strategy? I think it's probably better than taking a portal from people who were your bitter enemies up to ten minutes ago and assuming it leads somewhere nice.

[Shanna Marie]

On 12/2/2019 at 1:05 PM, tennisgurl said:

I always forget that Anastasia was actually the older sister, which you would think would create an interesting dynamic where the older sister who used to look after her little sister was now the child while her little sister is an adult, but that would mean any of Drizellas characterization made any sense.

That is a huge missed opportunity. If they hadn't shown it in the flashback here, I'd have thought they forgot that detail because it never came into play (just like Hook should have been older than Liam when they met again in the Underworld unless Liam was more than ten years older than Killian, but the casting there worked against them because Liam looked older than Killian).

On 12/2/2019 at 1:05 PM, tennisgurl said:

So...where the hell did they actually go anyway? Just some other random world? Are they prepared to live there? Is it safe? Does the Disenchated Forrest exist still, and thats where they went? Or did they just wander into some Mad Max death world they are in no way prepared for?

Given how few of the people in Hyperion Heights seem to actually be fairy tale characters, this curse must not have wiped out the Disenchanted Forest the way Regina's first curse did. It's almost like the curse only took Henry and Ella and their extended family and friends, along with the coven, and Facilier hitched a ride, bringing along Naveen. They may have been able to go back to a functioning society -- and that's if it brings them back to their time. Things get weird if they just travel back to their world but are in the same time, which is more than twenty years before the curse is cast.

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

This flashback was the first confirmation that the girls (well, Anastasia) could do magic.  But who did they get that from?  Rapunzel or Marcus?  Neither seemed magically gifted.

Was that supposed to be an early sign that Anastasia was the Guardian? Rapunzel talked about not relying on magic, but she was the one WHook went to when he wanted to get de-aged, so she had some ability to at least use a wand, and they've previously shown that it takes some power to use a wand (that was a big deal in the season 3 finale, when Emma thought she'd lost her powers and Hook had to talk her into believing again so she could use the wand to get them home).

11 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

Ivy Belfry is a millionaire, why does she not grab her sister, get her a fake passport and head off to Australia? All the murders are taking place in the small area of downtown Seattle inhabited by fairytale characters, I doubt the killer has the resources to chase them around the world.

That is a very good point. Especially since

Spoiler

Ivy isn't even his main target. Once he gets Zelena, would he even care about Ivy anymore? Just go away for a while. Do a grand tour.

[Camera One]

21 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

As is, it's hardly as if handing her over to be sacrificed is her only option. It bears noting: Ivy Belfry is a millionaire, why does she not grab her sister, get her a fake passport and head off to Australia? All the murders are taking place in the small area of downtown Seattle inhabited by fairytale characters, I doubt the killer has the resources to chase them around the world.

That is an excellent point.  I didn't even think about that possibility.

Ivy had so many video cameras earlier in the season to spy on her mother... surely, she had one in the parking garage so she could ID the attacker and close this storyline, no?  It needs to drag out?  Oh, alrighty then.

Quote

At any rate it's a better plan than trusting Baron Samedi, who is obviously sketchy even if she doesn't know him

There's also question of... how Dr. Facilier even got a hold of a magical bean when he came over Cursed and it's The Land Without Magic.  I mean, talk about convenient, eh?  Roni never bothered to ask him, either.

Quote

Rapunzel talked about not relying on magic, but she was the one WHook went to when he wanted to get de-aged, so she had some ability to at least use a wand

She must have learned it once she turned evil, because she showed no signs of magical powers at all when she was captured by Gothel and put into the Tower, nor afterwards when she worked as a servant.  I'm surprised Gothel didn't invite her to join the Coven too.  From Guardian Candidate to Morally Bankrupt Coven of 8, welcome.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Camera One

[Speakeasy]

In the interests of bringing a bit of positivity to the discussion, I will say that the idea of Gretel trying to learn the Blind Witch's secrets and becoming a witch herself so that she can master her fear and survive in a harsh world is actually a pretty interesting one. I like the effects of her turning the trap into candy, as well, it's a distinctive and... Ha... Flavorful... Type of magic to contrast with 'jazz hands=telekinesis or colour coded smoke/sparkles'