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S03.E16: I, Ava


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So Ava’s a clone. The clone club had to be an Orphan Black shout out. I do wonder why Rip just went to 2213 to pick an Ava clone. Rip always being shady and hiding things from people. When has that ever turned out well for him?

Sara went from thinking Ava’s an it, to telling she’s amazing really quickly. I still don’t think they let that relationship breath enough, everything just happens so quickly.  Are they going with Sara’s love completely changed Ava’s programming?

Well I guess Kuasa’s not joining the team. I wonder who wield the water totem since it does look like each Legend will get a totem. I’m also guessing Amaya’s done after this season, she’s the one that can’t really change her future since it involves a future hero in Mari.

Darkh's going to end up helping them isn't he? They are turning him into Malcolm from Arrow. I just hope if he does he dies helping them. I don't want him around next season. 

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Just now, shantown said:

Just when I thought Kuasa would be the new anti-hero on the Waverider next year... :(

She still might be.  Timey-wimey weirdness and whatnot.

I'm looking forward to Ava and Sara kicking Rip's ass over going to 2212 and what?  stealing?  buying?  an Ava to program into a TB agent.

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2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Darkh's going to end up helping them isn't he? They are turning him into Malcolm from Arrow. I just hope if he does he dies helping them. I don't want him around next season. 

Damien loves his daughter, just like Malcolm, so that bit makes sense.  Although Damien does come off a bit stupid for not recognizing earlier how "deals with the Devil" never end well.  Except maybe on Lucifer

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It was a good episode! Mix of my "live" thoughts and aftermath.

Sara be taken this time off but they dont let her visit Star City?!? and see her dad and doppelganger sister. Ok well nvm then since she got side tracked with Ava. Who apparently is the life model version of futuristic Barbie! Which why was the future so incredibly basic? I know they are on a limited budget but come on now, at least make it look like we are 100years in the future. Ava's "parents" house was so basic along with the time office.

Amaya is the most suited for 2nd in charge though it is time they stop making Ray so goofy and let him step it up. Not all the guys need to be dweebs.

I want to see Mari! This isn't fun anymore, stop teasing unless the actress comes back! As opposed to teasing us with Laurel when KC is next door. I think it is time to just recast the live action role at this point. If Mari isn't totem baring Vixen then Season 4 of Arrow should be different....way different.

Wally hasnt even been around that long and they already putting him on the side lines? Apart from stealing a necklace I feel like he hasn't really had that much to do. Is he not going to get any kind of main storyline for himself this year? 2 different shows and nothing?

Double cross! Kuasa finally got the thing she's wanted the most. Though isn't the totem corrupted? Which apparently it is which shouldn't be a surprise and then ANOTHER double cross with Kuasa helping out Amaya, so of course she has to die. While everyone just stands there and watches....why do they do this? No one is going to at least attempt to stop it while it is happening? Not even Wally?

Of course when Amaya gets the totem back she summons a Bear. Some things never change lol. Though Nate...taking control of your destiny is nice and all but its a little bit hard to do when your from the past and the future relies on you dying. 

This whole Mallis storyline is really giving me some Sailor Moon/Sailor Saturn (Mistress 9) flashbacks.

Darhk is really becoming the new Malcolm.

Is this when we find out that Nate is the true grandfather?

What is the use of doing

Spoiler

Obama when we know that the Arrowverse has a totally different president? I rather they not go with current figures.

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Of course Ava is a Canadian Cylon from the future. That sounds about right for a character on this show. 

Good episode, if not as exciting and tight as last week. I really enjoyed the Sara/Ray/Gary team, especially considering Sara and Ray haven't had all much that time just together, considering how long they've known each other. I especially lobe whenever Sara pulls a knife or something, and Ray is just kind of like "Sara, stop stabbing people, we talked about this!"

Sucks about Kuasa, she was a good villain and I thought she had potential to become more of an anti hero. Of course, with time travel in play, who knows what could happen? I am still pretty sure that Nate will turn out to be her and Maris grandpa, and it turns out he died before the girls were born or something. Oh Amaya, this is SO not going to end well. 

Yeah, a Hangry Zari and Mick having to learn stuff was a recipient for violence. I did like how they discussed Zaris culture and religion in such a "normal" way, and it ended with them chilling together in the kitchen, kind of apologizing, but mostly still being snarky. That how we go conflict management in Legends. Get in a little violence, then move on. And no one even had to announce that it didn't change anything Hoss! 

I get that its been a pretty intense relationship, and crazy happenings will often make a couple move quickly, but Ava and Sara are acting like they've been together for ages, when its been, what, a few weeks in universe? I do like Ava these days (love how that dating app and its up and down sliding has become a running gag) and she and Sara are fine, but...I just dont get super excited about their relationship? I mean, I guess her backstory as a clone with a fake personality is interesting, but will their romance become more interesting? Its just moving so fast!

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4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

What is the use of doing

Spoiler

Obama when we know that the Arrowverse has a totally different president? I rather they not go with current figures

.

Figure it'll be fun in any case.

Zari and Mick fighting and bonding was sweet.  It was nice to see some callback to Zari being Muslim, even if they didn't let her say out loud that she's Muslim.  I think half of Mick screwing with her with the food was him trying to get her to say it, like there was a bet or something.

Edited by johntfs
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At this point, I will be deeply shocked if Nate doesn't turn out to be the grandfather through timey-wimey consequences. I am tired of the Mari references without Megalyn E in the episode. This is my favorite character of hers, and it just doesn't ring true for me. Damien fistbumping Nate as they fake tortured was far more adorable than it had any right to be. Stop it, Neal McDonough. I like Mick the totem-bearer. Always like a Ray/Sara teamup (not gonna lie, I ship them). I liked it. Everyone was well used despite it not being a team-heavy episode. Love that they went to real Vancouver. I'll pretend we never saw that bridge in Central City.

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I wondered what year the Time Bureau agents were from, never thought clones. Only Rip would take a  perfect solider clone from the future and put her on his new team.  I hope Sara and Ave punch him in the face a couple times for keeping even more secrets.  Will he ever learn? 

I did like that Zari had Mick spinning in a tornado showing him how much more he could do with his totem if he learned how use it. However did she just give him a plate of lettuce? I wouldn't eat that either and I love vegetables. At least throw some cucumbers or tomatoes on it. 

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Not one of the stronger episodes although there's certainly stuff to like.

Nice to see Nate remembers he can steal up.  Him and Darhk were fun.  

Nice to Amaya to just stand there while Nora took hold of Kuasa and ripped the totem out of her chest.

Zari/Mick was good.

The Ava stuff?  Eh...

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I love Mick with all my heart, but watching Zari school him was fantastic. She really doesn't have the patience for his kind of bullshit, and it's so rare we get to see Mick completely frazzled that the whole C plot was a sheer delight. I hope we get to see more of them as a dynamic.

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I love this weird silly show.  All Damian wanted to do was burn down the world and reshape it in his image!  Now his kid is looking like she fell into a pile of uncapped sharpies and suddenly he's regretting a few life choices and torture just isn't as fun as it used to be.  Losing interest in things that used to make one happy is a sign of depression, but he looked like he and Nate were having fun with their pantomime.  

I loved how icked out Sara was by the "perfect" happy family while Ray saw nothing wrong.  Gary makes a consistently good punching bag.  Ray once again forgot to bring his suit.  Oops.  Ava being a clone and freaking out was probably the best way to get Sara to let go of a few of her issues.  

I was struck again by how much I like and value what Amaya brings to the show.  Would be nice if they could clone her and send one back in time and let us keep the other one on the Waverider.  I like that she's ready to break the rules right now. 

Next week looks so entertaining.  Are we really down to just two more episodes this season?  Too soon!

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7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I loved how icked out Sara was by the "perfect" happy family while Ray saw nothing wrong. 

Makes me wonder how many times, pre-Queen's Gambit, the Lance family presented themselves as "perfect".  Sara saw through that facade with remarkable speed so I have to assume it was familiar to her. 

I also enjoyed Zari giving Mick some greens at the end so that he would eat healthy. 

My favorite bit was Sara leaving Amaya in charge.  Especially since she said it in that "this isn't even a question" manner that she has.

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Fun episode. Clones, family strife, and Zari coaching Mick at her absolute worst time. Also, I think Gary will be making a Noble Sacrifice by the finale. Sadly, he was next to useless this week. I did like him "shipping" Ava and Sara.

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Next week looks so entertaining.  Are we really down to just two more episodes this season?  Too soon!

Fuck me running. Really, CW?!? I mean, awesome the the network gives DC Comics so much time on your schedule, but couldn'y you guys order 22 episodes? I mean, does the world really need "Archie-ville"?!? Only Riverdale girls are supposed to be hot, and Jughead isn't supposed to make girls swoon. Except for Big Ethel. C'mon, we had Damien fake-torture Nate. That was awesome.

Poor Damien. Poor evil Damien. Looks like Mallus is promoting Nora over him, and she kills Kuasa. Dang. Of course, Vixen isn't around. She's about as easy to find on-camera as Vera Peterson and Maris Crane. Luckily, we have Amaya, and she has her totem back. Also, her dopey-ass boyfriend. I think he outdorked Ray this week. At least Ray took out a few Avas. Wally gets the third spot . . . I know, this gig is new for the kid, but he likes to figuratively run into a brick wall. I think he has to potential to be the next Jax, in the sense that he would get teamed with Ray and Nate and have more common sense than two grown men.

Looks like Zari will be leaving an Islam For Dummies book outside Mick's room. I think that he gives a crap, but he doesn't always gives a crap. Also, he's into the "more is more" theory. His totem allows for many uses, and all he does is fireball and roast. To be fair, he probably does that with his (seldom-seen) flame gun. I did like the bonding with Zari, though. I would've figured that if the Groundhog Day crap actually did happen, she'd have more of a grasp on Mick.

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Any speedster poses the same problem (potentially outshining everyone else by ending the threat in half a second) and thus will always have the same shortcoming (namely being the first one in and the first one knocked out). Wally on this show is no exception. Even Barry on his own show is only able to quickly end the threat in the blink of an eye if they are not the big bad of the episode or season, otherwise he gets knocked around too. Which is why, even though I have come to like Keiynan Lonsdale, I never really wanted Wally on the Waverider. He basically HAS to be sidelined or the rest of the team would have nothing to do.

Wow, Damien. It took you this long to realize giving your daughter to a demon was NOT a good idea? And here I thought you were smart. I do see him siding with and probably fighting alongside the Legends in the future (which will really piss off Sara) and he will almost certainly die for Nora, one way or another.

Zari and Mick together was more fun than I expected. I also would like Gideon to keep a running tally of what percentage of her interior Mick has scorched while using the fire totem.

So, does Amaya's totem also affect her hair? That was a pretty dramatic change.

Kuasa wasn't really bad, just misunderstood? Or was she supposed to be an ends justify the means kind of person? And she insists Nate is not her grandfather. This is the first time she or anyone has specifically stated that isn't it? Up until now they've been deliberately keeping it kind of vague.

Ava's a clone. Okay. Doesn't change the fact she and Sara look so cute together.

Edited by KirkB
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With Rip having created the Time Bureau and likely recruited Ava, I wonder how many agents were recruited under "special circumstances". I don't blame if Ava and Sara kick his ass, in all honesty. What other shady moves did he pull, anyway? 

I liked the episode, but not nearly as much as I hoped for. I think I had too high expectations because I wasn't as enarmoured as I could have been. I thought it was mostly just ok. I was ok with the Clone stuff. Sara being immediately suspicious of Ava's perfect family was very much in character. But I just don't buy the Sara/Ava epic romance that they're trying to sell. I like Ava, but I find her bland at times. I will say that she does have her moments (I got a good chuckle at her confessing to Sara that she joined a dating app), but her and Sara are just...I don't know, not right for each other? The only time I've really liked them together is when they're kicking ass. 

Ray and Gary are too adorkable for words. Finally, a potential bromance that doesn't get on my nerves! Well....one without Nate, anyway. Gary really does crack me up. 

I'm not really upset over Kuasa's death. I never got into her character, so her death didn't really affect me. I did feel bad for her when Amaya told her that she wasn't redeemable, but I guess she proved her wrong at the end, though it felt too on the nose to get her to that point so she could die.

I am pleasantly surprised that Nate isn't, in fact, Mari and Kuasa's grandfather. I'm not sure whether I should be hoping for him to be their grandfather through timey wimey stuff so he can leave with Amaya whenever the two leave the show (I assume Amaya will have to leave eventually), or hope that they stick with this so Amaya and Nate can stay broken up.

Wally's pretty great. I just wish they didn't pair him with Nate and turn him into a total bro. I liked Mallus getting the better of Wally and his speed. 

Damien....urg, Neal is so great, but Damien is on my last nerve right now. I get it; he loves his daughter and has a messed up situation going on right now that's pushing him into crisis. I just don't feel anything toward him and his feelings. Neal McDonough is the only reason why I don't fast forward through all Damien scenes. He better be dying for Nora by the end of this season. Speaking of, I do think Nora is going to get Mallus taken out of her and that she'll survive. Kuasa's death made it possible for Nora to be freed of Mallus without having to die for it, I think. 

Mick/Zari's stuff was good, and then some points frustrated me. I typically like Mick, but I think they went a bit overboard with his addiction to food and his inability to really get Zari fasting. I do like how it tied together in the end, but I'm ok with admitting that Mick annoyed me in places this episode. 

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Kuasa on LOT... Mama Leonne on Izombie... Toni and Josie on  riverdale better watch out this week. 

CW gotta clear space for the ladies of the new charmed and all the drama that's causing

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Random thoughts:

  • Amaya’s curly wig was distractingly bad. Wow, was that bad. The straightened wig when she was Vixened up was fine, but the other one? Bad.
  • Loved that they touched on Zari being Muslim, and the story about her mother was nice. And watching her knock some sense into Mick was pretty fun.
  • I love Mick, but I’m sorry that he’s been largely reduced to the meat and sarcasm guy recently. I was hoping they’d delve into his fire obsession a little more in light of his new status as totem bearer/firebender. DP is capable of a lot more, and I’m sorry he hasn’t been given anything more than grunting and eating lately.
  • Nate was actually fun in his scenes with Damien. I agree that Neal McDonough needs to stop being so damn entertaining. I’ve definitely had my fill of the Darkhs, but Neal just seems to have so damn much fun that it’s impossible not to enjoy. But Nate and Amaya’s so-called epic love story continues to bore me.
  • Even though Wally had to get nerfed once again to avoid ending the episode in one act, I’m really enjoying him. I think he’s a good addition to the Waverider, and KL is kind of adorable.
  • I suspected Ava was in the dark about being a clonebot. JM really did a good job of playing all the beats and making me feel bad for Ava. I don’t really have much of an opinion about AvaLance one way or the other, but I do like what they’ve done with Ava in recent eps, and wouldn’t mind if they could find a way to keep her around next year.
  • Yay to Sara and Ray teaming up. They’re another fun pairing that doesn’t get enough time to shine. Though really, Ray is such an optimist that he makes a good foil to any and all of the cynical smartasses on the Waverider. I loved his TMI face when both Gary and Sara admitted to having naked dreams about Ava, lol.
  • Gary is entertainingly pathetic as always.
  • I’m sorry to see Kuasa gone, though I’m still holding out hope that we haven’t seen the last of her.
  • Rip, Rip, Rip, what have you done now? Can’t wait to hear what the story is about how he found/stole/recruited Ava. And seeing all those Avas gave me a serious Good Place vibe. Ava’s a Janet!
Edited by Maelstrom
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I like Ava and I liked Ava and Sara together.

Ava's secret wasn't that bad. Sure finding out you're a clone with false memories may be tough to deal with but it's better than finding out you're a robot.

I like they just had all the A.V.A.s be made in Vancouver just so they can go out and shoot in the city without having to pretend it's somewhere else.

Loved the Zari and Mick scenes.

Edited by VCRTracking
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4 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Fuck me running. Really, CW?!? I mean, awesome the the network gives DC Comics so much time on your schedule, but couldn'y you guys order 22 episodes? I mean, does the world really need "Archie-ville"?!? Only Riverdale girls are supposed to be hot, and Jughead isn't supposed to make girls swoon. Except for Big Ethel. C'mon, we had Damien fake-torture Nate. That was awesome.

They could always move LoT to Sunday nights since CW will be expanding its schedule in the fall..

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I was kind of underwhelmed, I guess.  It was fun.  But I didn't love it.  Unless this is laying down some groundwork for next season, it felt a little random to be dropping something like this in so close to the end of the season.  And I guess mainly I felt like for such an earth shattering revelation, both Sara and Ava got over it pretty damn quickly.

I'm also getting a little frustrated about how Mick's been written lately.   I kinda side-eyed it last episode, but now I'm starting to get annoyed.  I don't expect him to always be in the forefront, but he's been doing little but drinking and grunting lately.  I didn't blame Zari for snapping - he definitely had it coming.  I just would like to see them do a little more with him than they've doing lately. 

I guess mainly I'm disappointed - I feel like the show is in a little bit of a slump lately, and only with two episodes left, that's frustrating.  Next week's episode does not look particularly promising to me either, tbh. 

I was surprised, and disappointed, that they killed Kuasa.  I'm also confused about her definitive statement that Nate is not their grandfather.  I can't see where they're going with this for Steelvixen.  Nate dies, and Amaya returns to Zambezi, and finds someone else? That's harsh, since her time with the team began with losing one man she loved.  Do they end it by her losing another?  Either way, whether she stays or goes, they need to resolve the issue of her effect on the timeline once and for all, and not drag it out another season.  

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“This is the second-worst attack of the clones I’ve seen.”  Between that and the Clone Club reference, Ray and I are really kindred spirits and, again, that is something I never would have predicted when he first showed up on Arrow.

Anyway, Ava is apparently a clone, but had her memory wiped by Rip for some strange reason.  I wonder if she'll end up not just being a mere clone, but the original copy/patient zero, and is needed for whatever grand plans Rip has.  Either way, none of her stuff was really surprising, but I enjoyed the Sara/Ray/Gary trio.

Fare thee well, Kuasa.  I guess it is nice that she went out doing something good, even if it was basically to save Nate's sorry ass.  But this is clearly going to drive Amaya to do something reckless.  Also, Damien is totally going to end up turning on Mollus/Nora (and possibly sacrifice himself, perhaps?), because he's realizing real quick that maybe letting a demon control your daughter is not a good thing.  Better late then never, dad.

Hangry Zari was awesome.  As much as I love Mick, he was being extra boorish here (especially with his "bitch" remark), and it was nice seeing Zari school his ass and, in his own way, it seems clear he got the message.  I liked how they handled Zari's story by reminding everyone that she is a Muslim, but not being overtly-broad about it.  For all the times this show can be over-the-top and cheesy, they can be subtle when it counts.

I do kind of love that underneath all the badass assassin bravado, Sara can be an immature, jilted lover at times.

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This episode was okay, but it felt like they were trying too hard at times and the jokes fell flat. Still miles above the Elvis episode though.

I was expecting a slow redemption arc for Kuasa so that was surprising. I got whiplash from her quick turnaround. Avalance seems like a slowburn compared to that. I'm left feeling very confused about her motivations this season. Mildly annoyed at the Mari storyline without getting the Mari actress...

The clone storyline was meh but it was nice to get the Ray/Sara dynamic because we see so little of it. That's one pairing that has been underexplored and I wouldn't mind if they gave them a deeper storyline together to truly explore that friendship. The only moment I remember off the top of my head is Sara calling him a selfrighteous rich guy.

I'll miss Amaya but this going around in circles is starting to get frustrating so I think I would be okay with her written off. It's time for some new blood on the ship and we've got two other totem bearers now.

Sara being all offended and horrified at the Ex-city Hell was amusing. If it was anyone else I might be annoyed with their attitude because she's the one that did the breaking up, but with Sara it's just endearing. I guess seeing that Ava has her own messed up past...or lack thereof...may rekindle the relationship. But the whole thing still seems way too overdramatic considering how long they have actually known each other and been dating.

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3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

“This is the second-worst attack of the clones I’ve seen.”  Between that and the Clone Club reference

I caught the Attack of the Clones line, but did they say "Clone Club," or was the Orphan Black reference more subtle?  I never watched OB so I was probably not going to catch it.  I did catch "fembot," though.

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2 hours ago, CloudySky said:

I was expecting a slow redemption arc for Kuasa so that was surprising. I got whiplash from her quick turnaround. Avalance seems like a slowburn compared to that. I'm left feeling very confused about her motivations this season. Mildly annoyed at the Mari storyline without getting the Mari actress...

 

This.  Amaya had her totem back the next thing we know and Kuasa is suddenly like "it's all about family."  Not well done or edited.

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The card carrying member of the Clone Club had to be an Orphan Black shout out. Ray must be an Orphan Black fan. 

I don't know if this episode was necessary, did we really need an episode for a character that's not a regular right towards the end when they should've started getting ready for the big Mallus battle. I don't see how knowing Ava's a clone is going to help them with that. 

Kuasa's death was probably to get all the totems to the Legends since they were what trapped Mallus in the first place. They just need Sara to learn to control the death totem then they can combine their totems can call Captain Beebo to destroy Mallus. 

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50 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't know if this episode was necessary, did we really need an episode for a character that's not a regular right towards the end when they should've started getting ready for the big Mallus battle. I don't see how knowing Ava's a clone is going to help them with that.

It could have been filler. LoT wouldn't be the first show to do that near the finale. But it's also possible they intend to have an army of Avas help them fight Mallus in the finale, similarly to how they had an army of Thawnes last season.

Edited by KirkB
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10 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

 

  • I love Mick, but I’m sorry that he’s been largely reduced to the meat and sarcasm guy recently. I was hoping they’d delve into his fire obsession a little more in light of his new status as totem bearer/firebender. DP is capable of a lot more, and I’m sorry he hasn’t been given anything more than grunting and eating lately.

I'd rather him be that than a veggies and straight talk fellow,  one of my favourte things about Mick is that he fits in with the other legends without being anything quite like the other legends. 

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I was kind of hoping that Ava was Michelle Carter, Rip's aunt and the twin sister of Booster Gold that he saved before she died and gave her new memories. Instead of a clone. 

I see a lot of complaints about Wally being too powerful and could solve all their issues in seconds. Are the Flash and Supergirl only 5 minutes long? I don't ever see them solve all their issues in seconds. They don't always fight people with equal powers. Why does this complaint only come when it involves other shows? 

Edited by Sakura12
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14 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

I love Mick, but I’m sorry that he’s been largely reduced to the meat and sarcasm guy recently. I was hoping they’d delve into his fire obsession a little more in light of his new status as totem bearer/firebender. DP is capable of a lot more, and I’m sorry he hasn’t been given anything more than grunting and eating lately.

The real miracle is that Mick hasn't gained another chin from all of this not so healthy eating and drinking.  Is he spending all of his spare time in the gym?

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1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

The real miracle is that Mick hasn't gained another chin from all of this not so healthy eating and drinking.  Is he spending all of his spare time in the gym?

He burns a lot of calories waving his flames around.

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I wish I could disagree with this io9 article but I can't:

Amaya Is the Worst Legend of Tomorrow, Today, Yesterday, and Forever

Excerpt:

Quote

But that’s not the only threat to Mari: The bigger one is Amaya herself. By continuing a relationship with Nate, Amaya has risked creating a fixed anachronism that will Back to the Future Kuasa and Mari out of existence. In order to fix this, Kuasa tricks Nate into surrendering himself to the Darkhs—not because of loyalty to the time demon Mallus, the season’s big bad, but because she’s trying to preserve her and her sister’s lives. Amaya never acknowledges this, or seemingly cares, calling Kuasa irredeemable just moments because she sacrifices herself to save the very man who might destroy her family. And then, shit really hits the Time Fan.

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You know, I really love this season (even the episodes that have been a bit meh have still had a lot to love, IMO) and think its been very strong in character and in the greater story...but there are definitely a few problems that have shown up increasingly in the back half of this season. 

1. Going super hard on the AvaLance thing. I dont hate Ava (or at least, Ava 2.0) and I dont even hate them as a couple. Jess and Caity have decent chemistry, and they have had some cute moments. Like I said, I dont hate it, the way I have full on disliked some other ships that are suddenly added to a show, but their relationship seems rather forced, as of now. You can so obviously see the show being like "This is new ship! Ship it now!" and things have progressed super fast, and that kind of kills my interest. Again, its not a romance that I hate, and I think if they had started defrosting Ava earlier and had set up their relationship earlier, I would be fine with them. But now, the show spends a decent amount of time on this relationship that I just cant get that invested in. I feel bad, because I know lots of fans really dig them, and LGBTQ representation is awesome, but I just cant get super into them. 

2. You can see that they are having a bit of trouble keeping Mallus and his cult as a credible threat, while also tying him into all the other stuff with the totems, the time stuff, and typical Legends hijinks. Again, they do better than most shows do (especially superhero shows) but its still showing the strains of having a Big Bad, while also balancing everything else. 

3. Some of the character stuff is getting a bit stale. Well, stale is probably too harsh a word, but with such a large cast of wonderful characters, its easy for characters to get into ruts where they kind of start being more like quirks than characters. Like, when they go over bored on Rays goofiness, or Micks boorishness, you start to feel like the characters are being used too often for jokes, and not in ways that make sense for the complex, multidimensional people that they are. Its kind of inevitable when you have a huge cast in the middle of a huge story that you sometimes have to cut corners with people, but its still annoying to see. 

Really, I say all this with love, because even an average episode of LoT is better than most anything else on TV, and I adore this wacko show and its characters, and all its problems have been done a LOT worse on others shows, including in this very franchise, so I guess this could just be nit picking. But, I nit pick with love damn it.

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I had some issue as well. Another male character calling a women a bitch. And DP said it so aggressive. Also Mick kept asking Zari to eat "pork". Just too much. Last week Mick was drunk and sleeping. This week just uninvolved. I sense a bit of Flanderization. 

And yeah Amaya is getting a bit sad trying to put off her destiny. She knows they can't Willy Nilly change history and keep the timeline stable. I think Amaya SHOULD talk to Mari at this point. She needs to know what her sacrifice means. 

Jess is a good actress and Sara and Ava are OK but at the sane time I don't need Ava's backstory or centricness at this point. If Ava leaves I wouldn't care. I know they have to deal with WLW fans freaking out at another lost relationship but this isn't the ride or die couple. 

I also think it's time to get a little more of the serious side of Ray.

I still love the show the most of any of the Arrowverse shows. It's the most fun show but they do need to balance a little better sometimes with the cartoonishness.

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I was mad at Zari for suddenly being so bitchy toward Mick, but yeah, she was hangry.  Mick needs a lot more to do.  I will hope that he is the one who has the winning move to defeat Mallus in two weeks.  Sure, I believe that.  As a poster said above, it was noticeable that two black women died in back to back hours of CW shows.  I would ordinarily not notice the race of one or the other, but that just seemed jarring.  I do like the shorter seasons of LoT, so Boo to 22!  I barely watch full season shows like Supernatural any more, but the problem with SPN is that half the episodes are filler. 

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One thing I'd like noted is that using the Fire Totem to cook food is a pretty advanced and constructive use of it.  Figure it would take a lot of control to maintain the right temperature to cook hot dogs and popcorn without burning them to crisps.  Somebody should have praised Mick for not just using the Totem to blast stuff.

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9 hours ago, johntfs said:

One thing I'd like noted is that using the Fire Totem to cook food is a pretty advanced and constructive use of it.  Figure it would take a lot of control to maintain the right temperature to cook hot dogs and popcorn without burning them to crisps.  Somebody should have praised Mick for not just using the Totem to blast stuff.

I thought Zari should have used that to motivate Mick into training. I think he’d appreciate not wasting food because he couldn’t focus his fire. 

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52 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I thought Zari should have used that to motivate Mick into training. I think he’d appreciate not wasting food because he couldn’t focus his fire. 

Except he wasn't wasting his food because he was successfully cooking it.  Sort of like Zari was saying, "Mick, stop solving those calculus problems so we can work on your basic math skills."

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12 hours ago, tarotx said:

I had some issue as well. Another male character calling a women a bitch. And DP said it so aggressive. Also Mick kept asking Zari to eat "pork". Just too much. Last week Mick was drunk and sleeping. This week just uninvolved. I sense a bit of Flanderization. 

And yeah Amaya is getting a bit sad trying to put off her destiny. She knows they can't Willy Nilly change history and keep the timeline stable. I think Amaya SHOULD talk to Mari at this point. She needs to know what her sacrifice means. 

Jess is a good actress and Sara and Ava are OK but at the sane time I don't need Ava's backstory or centricness at this point. If Ava leaves I wouldn't care. I know they have to deal with WLW fans freaking out at another lost relationship but this isn't the ride or die couple. 

I also think it's time to get a little more of the serious side of Ray.

I still love the show the most of any of the Arrowverse shows. It's the most fun show but they do need to balance a little better sometimes with the cartoonishness.

I'm surprised it took Mick so long to call a woman a bitch on the show.  He seems like the kind of guy who has done that a lot over the course of his life.

I like Sara and Ava but agree that the ship has gone from 0 to 60 in record time trying to make them the one true pair.  There's no reason to rush hat.

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15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 3. Some of the character stuff is getting a bit stale. Well, stale is probably too harsh a word, but with such a large cast of wonderful characters, its easy for characters to get into ruts where they kind of start being more like quirks than characters. Like, when they go over bored on Rays goofiness, or Micks boorishness, you start to feel like the characters are being used too often for jokes, and not in ways that make sense for the complex, multidimensional people that they are. Its kind of inevitable when you have a huge cast in the middle of a huge story that you sometimes have to cut corners with people, but its still annoying to see.

Ray was kinda vindicated when Amaya made that rash decision at the end of the ep which will most likely cause another big tear in the time fabric (+ basically got her granddaughter killed this episode). He's a goofball, but he also used to be at the head of a billion dollar tech company so we know he has leadership experience.

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Yeah, some of the characterization is starting to border on caricature.  Mick is the worst right now - for the last several episodes, he's done little but drink, eat, and lay around, even when Ray was taken by the Darhks.  And I love Mick, but having him call Zari a bitch was a little much, even if they were using it as an excuse for Zari to turn him into a spinning top.

But I've also been noticing it with Ray.  I enjoy his cheerful optimism, but lately it's in danger of bordering on childishness.  Like when he told Sara "if you like that mean Time Bureau lady you shouldn't give up on her."  I mean, I laughed, but it also sounded like something an eight year old would say, not an adult. 

And then Amaya.  I like Amaya, and I think that writer came down way too hard on her, but in some points, she's not wrong.  Amaya lashing out at Kuasa and calling her irredeemable felt very out of character, (and just to set up Kuasa's sacrifice), and while I don't condone Kuasa turning Nate over to the Darhks, she's not wrong that Amaya is playing with her and Mari's lives by continuing her relationship with him, especially if she knows he's not their grandfather (which had not been confirmed for the audience until now).  

Edited by Starfish35
  • Love 3
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Ava stands for Advanced Variant Automaton meaning Ava is a machine and not human. So Sara did fall for a robot. I don't even like AvaLance but I wish they didn't do that. Unless Ava was the human they modeled their robots after. They should've gone with Michelle Carter to make her human. It's not like Goldstar would ever make it into a movie. 

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58 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

And then Amaya.  I like Amaya, and I think that writer came down way too hard on her, but in some points, she's not wrong.  Amaya lashing out at Kuasa and calling her irredeemable felt very out of character, (and just to set up Kuasa's sacrifice), and while I don't condone Kuasa turning Nate over to the Darhks, she's not wrong that Amaya is playing with her and Mari's lives by continuing her relationship with him, especially if she knows he's not their grandfather (which had not been confirmed for the audience until now).  

We actually still don't know whether Nate is or is not the grandfather.  We know that Kuasa believed he wasn't, but that's it.

 

7 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Ava stands for Advanced Variant Automaton meaning Ava is a machine and not human

Well, the Avas are machines made of meat.  They're fully human, but "programmed" to do certain jobs and tasks.  It's actually a bit horrifying and basically slavery once you get down to it.

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14 minutes ago, johntfs said:

We actually still don't know whether Nate is or is not the grandfather.  We know that Kuasa believed he wasn't, but that's it.

 

Well, the Avas are machines made of meat.  They're fully human, but "programmed" to do certain jobs and tasks.  It's actually a bit horrifying and basically slavery once you get down to it.

Are they fully human? I don't think we got that confirmation. Automaton means a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being. 

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1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Are they fully human? I don't think we got that confirmation. Automaton means a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being. 

It was stated within the episode that the Avas were clones formed from the most "perfect" genetic material.

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