S01.E04: Punished, as a Boy

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

A series of cunning attacks on the ships proves to the men they are not battling an ordinary bear.

 

[formerlyfreedom]

Please remember that this is the spot to discuss the episode; discussion of the book or actual historical events should take place in The True Story of the Franklin Expedition topic. Posts that are off topic will be removed.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

 

Clip: out of the frying pan, into the fire

[Earlwoode]

Watched four episodes so far and this show is damned good.  It's got me hooked.  Anyone else watch it?

[MaryMatts]

So Jesus that was an very intense episode.   I guess the "bear" is not a bear but some kind of monster/supernatural being?  It can climb ropes up to the sails?  Hmm....

 

Having said that, the most awful part of this episode was the brutal flogging scene.  Ugh just ugh!  What absolute barbarians these people were.  I was beginning to have a certain sympathy for Crozier but now I can't stand the bastard and hope he has a long, drawn-out painful death at the bear's claws.   He was totally vindictive and vicious.  Also, I'm having problems with hearing some of the dialogue like others have mentioned and I just don't understand why the men were sentenced to being flogged?  What did they do that merited such a punishment?  I get the Irish guy's sentence was augmented because he kept arguing with Crozier but what did they do that was so bad in the first place?

[SoSueMe]

I've always wanted to see the Northern Lights, but geez, they're kind of scary in this show. (along with everything else)

[SimoneS]

Gawd, that flogging scene, the brutality... I had to change channel. I couldn't watch. Honestly, he was another one who annoyed me limiting my sympathy. What did someone leave on the bunk for him? He smiled so it must have been something good. Then the exposed brain, ugh.

I like Cozier despite everything. He is the most emotionally balanced and pragmatic of the lot. If he had been in charge from the start instead of John, they would have a better chance of surviving. Poor Evans. Just a scared kid. I concede it is a magical bear of some sort.

Poor Inuit woman. These English men are just harassing her and causing their own demise with their stupidity.

It does seem like we have seen the last of Ciarán Hinds. I thought we would see him in flashbacks.

Edited April 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[tennisgurl]

Even in episodes without as much bloodshed, this show is so super intense. You really do feel stuck on a ship, with this growing feeling of dread, as the cold and quiet sinks in. I feel like I need an extra blanket every time I watch this show. In a good way. 

No way is whatever is out there just an angry bear. Or, if its is a bear, it isnt just a bear. I am interested to see what the Inuit woman knows about it. I dont at all think she controls it, but I think she can maybe communicate with it, or at least knows what it is. There is some nasty out there, and its coming. 

Cozier might not be the most pleasant company, but I like him and think he might be a decent commander. He seems smart and pragmatic, but without losing a sense of right and wrong. You can see him desperately trying to hold onto their dignity and grasp of civilization, even as things are clearly starting to already fall apart. Even when their definition of civilization is probably different tan ours. Order was restored for now, but how much longer? The cold and the monster and starvation is all bad, but a bunch of scared, desperate people all on their own, with weapons? Thats a real recipe for disaster right there. 

Those flogging were absolutely brutal. I know thats how things were then, but its still such an awful, nasty thing to see. These guys are the pinnacle of advancement? Those guys certainly needed to be punished, but that was just so...ouch. I thought the conversation between the Inuit woman (so we know her name?) and the doctor was quite interesting. He seemed to be truly horrified by what had happened to her, and kept on saying "this isnt what Englishmen do!", but we also just saw what is a major part of their navy's discipline, and that didnt exactly make them look so enlightened. I guess what is and isnt acceptable really does depend on time and culture. of course, with things going south quickly, more and more previously unacceptable things will start looking better. 

[Crone]

2 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

So Jesus that was an very intense episode.   I guess the "bear" is not a bear but some kind of monster/supernatural being?  It can climb ropes up to the sails?  Hmm....

 

Having said that, the most awful part of this episode was the brutal flogging scene.  Ugh just ugh!  What absolute barbarians these people were.  I was beginning to have a certain sympathy for Crozier but now I can't stand the bastard and hope he has a long, drawn-out painful death at the bear's claws.   He was totally vindictive and vicious.  Also, I'm having problems with hearing some of the dialogue like others have mentioned and I just don't understand why the men were sentenced to being flogged?  What did they do that merited such a punishment?  I get the Irish guy's sentence was augmented because he kept arguing with Crozier but what did they do that was so bad in the first place?

I think the flogging was because they left the ship without orders. Didn’t Crozier say he wasn’t going to send the men out in a squall and they could wait till morning to get the girl? The flogging was horrific, but military discipline has always been extreme (IMO) and is probably even more stringent in situations like theirs. I mean, can you imagine YEARS out on the ice, in the dark, freezing and starving? 

[CouchTater]

Was it just me, or did the ending of the show seem abrupt and random?  Goodsir was talking to the Inuit woman, and said his name "Goodsir" and the show ended. 

[SimoneS]

I was struck by how much in denial Toby Menzies' character, James is still in. After everything that has happened, he still thinks that Cozier is being pessimistic and that they can complete their mission. Argh. Dude, wake up!

 

43 minutes ago, Crone said:

I think the flogging was because they left the ship without orders. Didn’t Crozier say he wasn’t going to send the men out in a squall and they could wait till morning to get the girl? The flogging was horrific, but military discipline has always been extreme (IMO) and is probably even more stringent in situations like theirs. I mean, can you imagine YEARS out on the ice, in the dark, freezing and starving? 

Yep, deserting their stations and insubordination. Plus, they kidnapped and tied up the Inuit woman against the captain's orders.  Honestly, I didn't have much sympathy for them. They forced Cozier's hand. If he didn't discipline them severely, the rest of the crew already scared and on edge would have taken it as a sign to go rogue and mutiny. 

Thinking about the flogging scene, it could have been worse. It didn't appear that they used the cat o' nine tails which was the whip usually used in the British navy and military.

Edited April 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[thuganomics85]

Went in this episode curious about what the title of this episode meant, and I certainly was not expecting the answer!  That was brutal as hell!  Not sure what to think.  I do think Hickey might be right that Lady Silence knows more then she's letting on, but he had to know going after her without orders would blow back on him, and he certainly had to know challenging Francis like that was just going to make the punishment even worse.  Meanwhile, I do think Francis' anger and reaction was out of insecurity and his pride being wounded, but at the same time, I think he knows that he is in a precarious position with the crew, and had he let their offense go by unpunished, it could hurt his standing with the crew even more.  Of course, it is certainly possible he went too far and they now more fear him instead of respect him (sounds like almost everyone is abandoning The Terror now), but I can see his reasons.  Still, that was an intense moment.  Jared Harris and Adam Nagaitis were fantastic throughout all of it.

Aww, Sinclair's trying to bond with Lady Silence.  He really seems like a decent fellow.  Which means he's totally going to get the most brutal death in the end, right?!

The stuff with Lady Jane is interesting, knowing that she is already too late to save her husband.  Also, it seems like she might have been the one who really didn't want Francis with Sophie.  Fun seeing John Ross again, but who was playing the main guy they were talking too, because he look and especially sounded very familiar.  I was also impressed over how James managed to even look extra smug in his portrait.  You have a gift, Tobias Menzies!

Get an actual glimpse of the creature.  Have a feeling he ain't done, yet!

[patty1h]

20 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

Was it just me, or did the ending of the show seem abrupt and random?  Goodsir was talking to the Inuit woman, and said his name "Goodsir" and the show ended. 

Not just you.  I thought they were breaking for a commercial, then the preview for next week comes onscreen.

[Cotypubby]

So what was it Hickey found in his bed? Was it a “gift” the boyfriend left in response to last week?

[slothgirl]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Thinking about the flogging scene, it could have been worse. It didn't appear that they used the cat o' nine tails which was the whip usually used in the British navy and military.

 

I couldn't see it, but Crozier does make a reference to the the guy administering the punishment needing to make a new "cat". I assumed he meant that one would be made for this situation, but maybe he meant that they would use something else since a "cat" wasn't ready.

That was intense. I don't mind blood and gore, but i hate watching scenes of torture. Flogging is just that.. torture.

I get that Crozier needed to enforce discipline and have some sort of punishment... but there's a fine line between keeping subordinates' respect and preventing mutiny through appropriate discipline, vs provoking mutiny by creating rebellion from tyranny and abuse of power. I fear he crossed into the latter with the crew. The crew wasn't present for Hickeys back-talk to the captain, and even if word got around, the sight of the punishment probably far outweighed any knowledge they had of the insubordination. On the other hand, flogging was a standard punishment so maybe they were less squeamish about seeing it than we are today.

On that subject... were we supposed to know why that one guy being given the pain killer and the head cloth might have been flogged at some point? He responds to the question with "What do you think? Are we to assume it was recent and probably for homosexuality? Are we even supposed to know who he was? And what was with his mouth and teeth? Is that supposed to be a sign of lead poisoning?

What happened to the guy with half his skull gone? What were they doing with the wax on his eyes? And the references to pudding (or whatever it was) or cathedral? Sometimes I think this show goes on a few too many side trips in it's journey. I know they are trying to set a mood and tell a complex story of myriad problems, but everyone in the monochromatic dark setting with uniforms and scruffy features kinda looks alike. I can't keep track of the various one-off crew members that show up in a scene like they are supposed to be significant.

And what was that in Hickey's bed? It looked to me like a tuft of fur. He certainly was pleased to have it... was it from a lover he can blackmail? Or one who is on his side behind the scenes? Or from the creature? Or am I wrong about it being hair or fur?

Edited April 10, 2018 by slothgirl

[Cotypubby]

I thought the guy with the wet band on his head had meant he was flogged for drunkenness. I figured his headache was a hangover. 

Was the guy with his brain showing dead or not? They kept saying how he “was hanging on,” but he certainly looked dead to me, with his eyes open and not moving, and then with pouring hot wax on his eyes. And you know, with the whole brain pouring out of his head thing. Don’t know what pudding or cathedral meant either. Why would a brain look like pudding or a cathedral? ?

[CinematicGuy]

11 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

So what was it Hickey found in his bed? Was it a “gift” the boyfriend left in response to last week?

It was a pouch with tobacco. Presumably from his lover, perhaps out of sympathy towards his condition.

10 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I thought the guy with the wet band on his head had meant he was flogged for drunkenness. I figured his headache was a hangover. 

Was the guy with his brain showing dead or not? They kept saying how he “was hanging on,” but he certainly looked dead to me, with his eyes open and not moving, and then with pouring hot wax on his eyes. And you know, with the whole brain pouring out of his head thing. Don’t know what pudding or cathedral meant either. Why would a brain look like pudding or a cathedral? ?

I think the meaning is that a man’s brain physically looks like pudding (the stern doctor who seems to be increasingly delirious and losing his own humanity), whereas Goodsir compares a man’s mind to a cathedral, “depending on the man,” because it is both dependent on morality but capable of majesty or brilliance. Goodsir is an optimist, perhaps choosing not to see the degradation of human spirit in such awful conditions.

The comparison is ironic because it illustrates the loss of humanity (brain is just pudding) to retaining humanity (cathedral), but ultimately the men turn to cannibalism and surely anything looking like pudding would be tasty!!

I think this episode shows the line between preservation of humanity vs. the emerging "beast," both in the form of the men's mindsets and the "creature" that attacks them. 

We catch a glimpse of the beast first, from Hickey's perspective, who sees him from afar. Almost beckoning him. I think this indicates that Hickey will be a source of great adversity, as he turns away from humanity in desperate times. 

The doctor who compares the wounded man's brain to "pudding" vs. Goodsir's comparison of the brain to a cathedral is really a distinction about what humanity means to the crew. The doctor is tired, perhaps ill from lead poisoning or botulism, and mixes up his Latin and Greek. He blandly refers to the brain as a pudding, vaguely implying without acting on it that the brain is...edible. Goodsir prefers to think of the brain as synonymous with the mind, "a cathedral," that houses a man's spirit, or humanity. 

A possibly symbolic interpretation of the catatonic man, wounded from the creature, is that there is a space between humanity and savagery. The marine with his exposed brain not only reveals the simple mechanics of a brain and how much it looks like pudding, but also the wonder of life and the ability to persevere in almost impossible conditions. His example is a battleground of the coming spiritual battle that will only become stranger and more surreal. 

[Crone]

5 minutes ago, CinematicGuy said:

I think this episode shows the line between preservation of humanity vs. the emerging "beast," both in the form of the men's mindsets and the "creature" that attacks them. 

We catch a glimpse of the beast first, from Hickey's perspective, who sees him from afar. Almost beckoning him. I think this indicates that Hickey will be a source of great adversity, as he turns away from humanity in desperate times. 

The doctor who compares the wounded man's brain to "pudding" vs. Goodsir's comparison of the brain to a cathedral is really a distinction about what humanity means to the crew. The doctor is tired, perhaps ill from lead poisoning or botulism, and mixes up his Latin and Greek. He blandly refers to the brain as a pudding, vaguely implying without acting on it that the brain is...edible. Goodsir prefers to think of the brain as synonymous with the mind, "a cathedral," that houses a man's spirit, or humanity. 

A possibly symbolic interpretation of the catatonic man, wounded from the creature, is that there is a space between humanity and savagery. The marine with his exposed brain not only reveals the simple mechanics of a brain and how much it looks like pudding, but also the wonder of life and the ability to persevere in almost impossible conditions. His example is a battleground of the coming spiritual battle that will only become stranger and more surreal. 

Love your literary analysis interpretation! I do see a lot of allegory in this story. Also, I think the flogging will drive Hickey to the dark side, making him Crozier’s human adversary.

[CinematicGuy]

8 minutes ago, Crone said:

Love your literary analysis interpretation! I do see a lot of allegory in this story. Also, I think the flogging will drive Hickey to the dark side, making him Crozier’s human adversary.

Thank you very much! I completely agree - the flogging scene is profound, but I think the enormity of what it means may be clearer after a few more episodes. I think a line has certainly been drawn between Crozier and Hickey. Another irony is in episode 2, when Crozier serves Hickey a drink, he congratulates Hickey for living his life through blending in as opposed to living in opposition. It seems their styles of facing adversity will be dramatically put to the test! 

[shrewd.buddha]

15 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

What did they do that merited such a punishment? 

My feeling was that Francis understands there is a connection between their treatment of the native people and supernatural creature  stalking them. He knows that every offense will make things worse for the crewmen. Meanwhile, there are those types (like the guy who got flogged) who think they can eliminate the creature by eliminating the woman (just shoot everything). 
Francis appears to understand how truly f*cked they are. And now we learn that he has been unhappy because he was Capt. John's babysitter (maybe self appointed) and just wanted one more mission to get to a better retirement position. 

We are really enjoying the atmosphere, characters and story in general. 
One thing I did wonder about : since these ships did exist, the names of the crew members should be known, right? Does anyone know if they are using actual, documented names for  crew members? It would be interesting, but as the circumstances of the disappearance is fictional, not every character gets to have a heroic story line - some family descendants might not appreciate that. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[Ohwell]

Without closed captioning, I have to come here to find out about half of what's going on. 

[Earlwoode]

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I was struck by how much in denial Toby Menzies' character, James is still in. After everything that has happened, he still thinks that Cozier is being pessimistic and that they can complete their mission. Argh. Dude, wake up!

 

Yep, deserting their stations and insubordination. Plus, they kidnapped and tied up the Inuit woman against the captain's orders.  Honestly, I didn't have much sympathy for them. They forced Cozier's hand. If he didn't discipline them severely, the rest of the crew already scared and on edge would have taken it as a sign to go rogue and mutiny. 

Thinking about the flogging scene, it could have been worse. It didn't appear that they used the cat o' nine tails which was the whip usually used in the British navy and military.

They tied up and kidnapped the Innuit woman (they call her Lady Silence)?   When did that happen?  I thought they'd all agreed she´d have to be brought to the ship to be questioned about the "bear"?  Then there was a problem and the people from the Erebus wanted her out (God knows why) and they brought her to the Terror for her own "protection".  If there is one criticism I would make about this series is the difficulty in perceiving where they are as the ships look exactly alike.  There is also quite a bit of mumbling and sometimes scenes are done so fast you don't understand what the heck is going on.  Which is why I didn't get why the men were going to be flogged?   I didn't get they were supposed to have kidnapped the woman.  Also, some of the night scenes are just so dark you can't see what the hell is going on.  I wonder if it's deliberate so we don't get too big a glimpse of the "bear"?

 

 

Thinking about the flogging scene, it could have been worse. It didn't appear that they used the cat o' nine tails which was the whip usually used in the British navy and military.

 

The glimpse I got of it definitely had more than one strand.  Maybe not nine but definitely more than three or four.

I still think the flogging sentence was way over the top and Crozier seemed to take particular delight in demanding more lashes.  He completely lost my sympathy - he's a brutal and vicious guy IMO.  Also, why in heaven's name did they need to "maintain" discipline with punishments like those?  How do they maintain discipline in modern times then when things like that are totally outlawed (at least in supposedly democratic countries)?  You would think they would have been less barbaric in 1848.

[Ohwell]

I noticed that they're running the same episode back to back.  I wonder why?  Now I have to wait until 11 p.m. to see McMafia instead of 10 p.m. 

[Crone]

I’d be lost without captions. Almost gave up on the show, but figured out how to get captions on directv. My old tv won’t do captioning.

Agree that it is easy to miss things with all the darkness and everyone being all bundled up. I watched the first two episodes twice- that’s what it took to get a handle on who’s who, even with captions.

[islandgal140]

Just added to my bucket list: See Northern Lights, but with a note to self to do so in a well populated city, from inside a bar with a roaring fireplace and drink in my hand.

I swear I burrow just a little bit deeper into my slanket every time I watch this show as if I can feel the arctic winds blowing in my living room. 

3 hours ago, CinematicGuy said:

Thank you very much! I completely agree - the flogging scene is profound, but I think the enormity of what it means may be clearer after a few more episodes. I think a line has certainly been drawn between Crozier and Hickey. Another irony is in episode 2, when Crozier serves Hickey a drink, he congratulates Hickey for living his life through blending in as opposed to living in opposition. It seems their styles of facing adversity will be dramatically put to the test! 

Part of me did wonder if Crozier imparted such a heavier sentence upon Hickey out of some sense of resentment or jealousy. He has been dwelling and having flashbacks about his 2 failed proposals to Sophia, perhaps Crozier wondered if he might have had an easier way of it with her and her family if Crozier himself had tried to 'pass.' 

My guess is that the creature is some kind of spirit animal to the Inuit woman's father who was killed by the English. It is seeking revenge for the man's death and acting as protector to the young lady now that her father is gone, which explains it bringing her dead seals and visiting her. It did seems incredibly interesting when the creature killed Sir John by dropping him in the same ice hole Sir John ordered the dead Inuit man be buried, which I believe was viewed as disrespectful in Inuit culture. 

I didn't realize how slightly built (compared to the others) the actor who plays Hickey was until the flogging scene. 

Anywho, I love this show! 

[SoSueMe]

4 hours ago, CinematicGuy said:

It was a pouch with tobacco. Presumably from his lover, perhaps out of sympathy towards his condition.

I think the meaning is that a man’s brain physically looks like pudding (the stern doctor who seems to be increasingly delirious and losing his own humanity), whereas Goodsir compares a man’s mind to a cathedral, “depending on the man,” because it is both dependent on morality but capable of majesty or brilliance. Goodsir is an optimist, perhaps choosing not to see the degradation of human spirit in such awful conditions.

The comparison is ironic because it illustrates the loss of humanity (brain is just pudding) to retaining humanity (cathedral), but ultimately the men turn to cannibalism and surely anything looking like pudding would be tasty!!

I think this episode shows the line between preservation of humanity vs. the emerging "beast," both in the form of the men's mindsets and the "creature" that attacks them. 

We catch a glimpse of the beast first, from Hickey's perspective, who sees him from afar. Almost beckoning him. I think this indicates that Hickey will be a source of great adversity, as he turns away from humanity in desperate times. 

The doctor who compares the wounded man's brain to "pudding" vs. Goodsir's comparison of the brain to a cathedral is really a distinction about what humanity means to the crew. The doctor is tired, perhaps ill from lead poisoning or botulism, and mixes up his Latin and Greek. He blandly refers to the brain as a pudding, vaguely implying without acting on it that the brain is...edible. Goodsir prefers to think of the brain as synonymous with the mind, "a cathedral," that houses a man's spirit, or humanity. 

A possibly symbolic interpretation of the catatonic man, wounded from the creature, is that there is a space between humanity and savagery. The marine with his exposed brain not only reveals the simple mechanics of a brain and how much it looks like pudding, but also the wonder of life and the ability to persevere in almost impossible conditions. His example is a battleground of the coming spiritual battle that will only become stranger and more surreal. 

Terrific post. I did catch on to the cathedral/pudding analogies and it seemed so very profound to me.

Re: sealing wax. Sorry if this has been answered, I believe it was to keep the eyelids closed. 

[MaryMatts]

1 hour ago, Earlwoode said:

I still think the flogging sentence was way over the top and Crozier seemed to take particular delight in demanding more lashes.  He completely lost my sympathy - he's a brutal and vicious guy IMO.

I totally agree - it was brutal, extra humiliating and completely over the top.  It made it much worse when I realised what "punished, as a boy" meant.  Jesus, they used to flog children like that? Barbarians indeed.   

I do wish I could understand some of the dialogue better too.  And someone should tell TV people that dark scenes are incredibly difficult to see and figure out what's going on top of the fact these guys are so bundled up you have almost no idea who they are.   I don't appreciate having to squint to try to see what is going on, lol!  

 BTW, I think the whole "bear" thing is  a bit silly.  I mean, it cuts men in half and then places their corpses aboard the ship like they were one person?  Yeah, pretty ridiculous though I do realise this series is based on a book and not totally on the real expedition itself.  It's not enough they had to endure extreme cold, not much food, half a year of eternal night and being totally lost with no hope of rescue?  Have we heard at all what happened to the party they send out (south, I think) to try and get help? 

Still, I am enjoying the show immensely and am looking forward to the next episode.  

[SoSueMe]

19 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

Just added to my bucket list: See Northern Lights, but with a note to self to do so in a well populated city, from inside a bar with a roaring fireplace and drink in my hand.

I swear I burrow just a little bit deeper into my slanket every time I watch this show as if I can feel the arctic winds blowing in my living room. 

Part of me did wonder if Crozier imparted such a heavier sentence upon Hickey out of some sense of resentment or jealousy. He has been dwelling and having flashbacks about his 2 failed proposals to Sophia, perhaps Crozier wondered if he might have had an easier way of it with her and her family if Crozier himself had tried to 'pass.' 

My guess is that the creature is some kind of spirit animal to the Inuit woman's father who was killed by the English. It is seeking revenge for the man's death and acting as protector to the young lady now that her father is gone, which explains it bringing her dead seals and visiting her. It did seems incredibly interesting when the creature killed Sir John by dropping him in the same ice hole Sir John ordered the dead Inuit man be buried, which I believe was viewed as disrespectful in Inuit culture. 

I didn't realize how slightly built (compared to the others) the actor who plays Hickey was until the flogging scene. 

Anywho, I love this show! 

BBM

So you believe that Crozer is also gay or do I misunderstand? That did not occur to me, although I thought that perhaps jealousy was a factor if he was aware of Hickey's orientation and envied him having any type of physical relationship.

[Lynnann]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

My feeling was that Francis understands there is a connection between their treatment of the native people and supernatural creature  stalking them. He knows that every offense will make things worse for the crewmen. Meanwhile, there are those types (like the guy who got flogged) who think they can eliminate the creature by eliminating the woman (just shoot everything). 
Francis appears to understand how truly f*cked they are. And now we learn that he has been unhappy because he was Capt. John's babysitter (maybe self appointed) and just wanted one more mission to get to a better retirement position. 

We are really enjoying the atmosphere, characters and story in general. 
One thing I did wonder about : since these ships did exist, the names of the crew members should be known, right? Does anyone know if they are using actual, documented names for  crew members? It would be interesting, but as the circumstances of the disappearance is fictional, not every character gets to have a heroic story line - some family descendants might not appreciate that. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin's_lost_expedition#Crew_manifest

[slothgirl]

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

One thing I did wonder about : since these ships did exist, the names of the crew members should be known, right? Does anyone know if they are using actual, documented names for  crew members? It would be interesting, but as the circumstances of the disappearance is fictional, not every character gets to have a heroic story line - some family descendants might not appreciate that. 

 

Except for a few of the more famous participants, they are not. I found a list of the ships' crew on Wiki somewhere to check that against IMDB's character list early on. 

12 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

They tied up and kidnapped the Innuit woman (they call her Lady Silence)?   When did that happen?  I thought they'd all agreed she´d have to be brought to the ship to be questioned about the "bear"?  

I still think the flogging sentence was way over the top and Crozier seemed to take particular delight in demanding more lashes.  He completely lost my sympathy - he's a brutal and vicious guy IMO.  Also, why in heaven's name did they need to "maintain" discipline with punishments like those?  How do they maintain discipline in modern times then when things like that are totally outlawed (at least in supposedly democratic countries)?  You would think they would have been less barbaric in 1848.

The 3 guys left the ship in the night against orders. That also meant leaving their assigned posts during the night (not such a great idea). Plus kidnapping her instead of going to talk to her or bringing her back to the ship with maybe a little less force.

I also wondered why he kept saying "again" as though he was adding more lashes, so I counted them on the re-watch. They showed 23 lashes, and he had been sentenced to 30. I couldn't tell whether we were supposed to infer that it was being cut and edited so that the 30 had already been done before he even says "Again" the first time, or whether he was reminding the guy doing the lashing to keep going because they hadn't reached 30 yet.

12 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I noticed that they're running the same episode back to back.  I wonder why?  Now I have to wait until 11 p.m. to see McMafia instead of 10 p.m. 

I'm gald they do... I catch things on an immediate 2nd viewing that I missed on the first, and I don't have to find a re-airing in the schedule and remember to watch it.

10 hours ago, islandgal140 said:

Part of me did wonder if Crozier imparted such a heavier sentence upon Hickey out of some sense of resentment or jealousy. He has been dwelling and having flashbacks about his 2 failed proposals to Sophia, perhaps Crozier wondered if he might have had an easier way of it with her and her family if Crozier himself had tried to 'pass.' 

I interpreted it that having Sophia in his thoughts all the time recently, he was especially upset that a woman was victimized and possibly in danger from the crew's hysteria. But your explanation makes sense too.

10 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

I totally agree - it was brutal, extra humiliating and completely over the top.  It made it much worse when I realised what "punished, as a boy" meant.  Jesus, they used to flog children like that? Barbarians indeed. 

 BTW, I think the whole "bear" thing is  a bit silly.  I mean, it cuts men in half and then places their corpses aboard the ship like they were one person?  Yeah, pretty ridiculous though I do realise this series is based on a book and not totally on the real expedition itself.  It's not enough they had to endure extreme cold, not much food, half a year of eternal night and being totally lost with no hope of rescue?  Have we heard at all what happened to the party they send out (south, I think) to try and get help? 

Still, I am enjoying the show immensely and am looking forward to the next episode.  

I doubt they flogged children. Spanked or paddled them. The reference to "as a boy" meant hit on the buttocks, not the back, and although there were probably instances of someone "taking a strap" to a child, I don't think we are supposed to infer that whipping children with a cat o 9-tails was a frequent thing. Corporal punishment was more common then, though. It was common in the US ini the past too.

I also found the stacking of frozen corpse halves a little OTT even for a mythical not-really-a-bear creature. It would take such precision to get them balanced, and ice cubes tend to slide off each other. Now if it had been only ONE corpse set up against the railing.. that would have worked for me. But then we wouldn't have the whole "how did the men get sliced in half by a claw?" issue.

10 hours ago, SoSueMe said:

So you believe that Crozer is also gay or do I misunderstand? That did not occur to me, although I thought that perhaps jealousy was a factor if he was aware of Hickey's orientation and envied him having any type of physical relationship.

I think the poster meant pass as English. The objection to Crozier as a husband for their niece was that he is Irish.

[iMonrey]

I'm getting irritated with all the dark scenes where I can't tell what's going on. When Francis was out searching with the boy he took with him and went up over the ridge I couldn't tell what it was he found on the ground. A dead guy? Someone we knew? Couldn't tell who the guy frozen leaning over the boat was either. I'm also still having trouble with character names and we're four episodes in. Too many Sir Jameses and Sir Johns and I've yet to hear anyone call Francis Crozier either Francis or Crozier so I'm not even convinced that's his name. I don't really have a handle on anyone's name except Lady Silence and Mr. Goodsir. I just do not think they have done a good job establishing who is who and what their rank/position is.

I think the show has great potential but I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the execution and I'm still having trouble following it.

[meep.meep]

12 hours ago, slothgirl said:

On that subject... were we supposed to know why that one guy being given the pain killer and the head cloth might have been flogged at some point? He responds to the question with "What do you think? Are we to assume it was recent and probably for homosexuality? Are we even supposed to know who he was? And what was with his mouth and teeth? Is that supposed to be a sign of lead poisoning?

I think the black gums are a sign of scurvy.  They have said that the canned food is going bad.  

[islandgal140]

36 minutes ago, SoSueMe said:

BBM

So you believe that Crozer is also gay or do I misunderstand? That did not occur to me, although I thought that perhaps jealousy was a factor if he was aware of Hickey's orientation and envied him having any type of physical relationship.

No, not gay. Pass as British, i.e. not Irish.  In the black community 'trying to pass' meant a very fair skinned light skinned Black person or maybe even biracial was trying to pass off as white to avoid discrimination and ill-treatment. I just took that term and extended it to this situation. The Irish were (are?) discriminated against greatly in British society. The Irish brogue would surely point you out as such and make one vulnerable to unfair treatment. Being Irish but having a British sounding accent one could perhaps 'pass' as British (as long as you didn't have a too Irish sounding name perhaps).  

Edited April 10, 2018 by islandgal140

[Earlwoode]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm getting irritated with all the dark scenes where I can't tell what's going on. When Francis was out searching with the boy he took with him and went up over the ridge I couldn't tell what it was he found on the ground. A dead guy? Someone we knew? Couldn't tell who the guy frozen leaning over the boat was either. I'm also still having trouble with character names and we're four episodes in. Too many Sir Jameses and Sir Johns and I've yet to hear anyone call Francis Crozier either Francis or Crozier so I'm not even convinced that's his name. I don't really have a handle on anyone's name except Lady Silence and Mr. Goodsir. I just do not think they have done a good job establishing who is who and what their rank/position is.

I think the show has great potential but I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the execution and I'm still having trouble following it.

I totally agree.  Apart from John Franklyn, Fitzjames, Crozier, the non-doctor with the long sideburns and now Hickey, it’s damned difficult to tell who the other characters are.  They just don’t give them enough screen time for us to memorize their faces, let alone their names or ranks.  And I also wondered what Crozier had found out on the ice.  It looked like a cloak with a pool of blood underneath it.  And how stupid was it to split up into groups of two in the dead of night, one of which was only armed with a....lantern? It was so predictable the boy was a prime candidate for bear fodder.

[Captanne]

I have subtitles!!  Joy.  I’ll be back with my opinion later. 

[Crone]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Can someone tell me if the dog, cat, and monkey are still alive?

If they are safe, I know I can watch the episode no matter how gruesome it is.

Haven’t seen them lately. I have a feeling that most of the gruesome will be found in the environment, the monster, and the men slowly losing their humanity. I think the animals are minor characters- not really part of the action. Just my opinion- watch at your own risk. Or remind me when it’s over (7 more episodes) and I’ll tell you. :-)

[peridot]

The bear is very intelligent, it laid down a bloody cloak in the snow as a decoy for Crozier and snatched up the ship's boy.
Picking off the men, one-by-one, has me wound up tight.

It's too bad the buzzed cut guy was murdered on his birthday, but I don't see how the bear arranged/balanced him in two pieces without gravity kicking in.  I half-expected for the bear to have disguised itself as a human, and kill Hickey then.

I could barely see what Hickey saw in the snow, but I had to avert my eyes.  It's too creepy sometimes!

The whipping scene was brutal.  Since Tobias Menzies was in Outlander, it unfortunately reminded me of the awful beating scene from the first season.
I'm really surprised Hickey was able to walk off afterwards.

[Lithogirl]

I keep wondering when Crozier is going to run out of liquor. He seems to drink it pretty liberally and they’ve been there awhile so if it were me, I might be starting to count bottles, you know? But I have no idea how many they brought, of course.

[SoSueMe]

1 hour ago, Captanne said:

I have subtitles!!  Joy.  I’ll be back with my opinion later. 

Congratulations! It makes all the difference.

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, Lithogirl said:

But I have no idea how many they brought, of course.

On that note, I have absolutely no idea on how they would provision a ship for a minimum of two years travel, or five years if rationed (as was said at the London meeting).  How do you figure that out?

It's also interesting to decipher the Royal Navy idioms used in the episodes.  I found out that "six-water", used in reference to the punishments meted out to the men, is dilution of the daily ration of rum by six parts water instead of the usual three.

While it may seem that flogging the men was unmerited, in this case it might have been.  The ships were not on a simple geographic mission anymore.  They were essentially at war (enemy unknown, of course), and desertion of a post for any reason might have terrible consequences.  For instance,  Bowe Bergdahl in Iraq.  Using it simply as a means of reinforcing discipline, however, would be counter-productive, as William Bligh found out in the next century. 

Winston Churchill's famous quote about remaking the Royal Navy is apt.  "150 years of tradition, consisting of rum, sodomy, and the lash."

[Captanne]

9 hours ago, SoSueMe said:

11 hours ago, Captanne said:

I have subtitles!!  Joy.  I’ll be back with my opinion later. 

Congratulations! It makes all the difference.

It does.  It really does.  I enjoyed the episode.  I really did.  It's a miracle.  Subtitling made all the difference.  Now I understand why the show is enjoyable -- even with the Star Trek: TOS styrofoam ice sheet sets.

Unfortunately, beyond the subtitles and enjoying the show vastly more -- I can't find anything out of the ordinary to compliment or criticize.  The acting was fine, the plot is like the book, and the technical side was also fine.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Captanne

[CoachWristletJen]

The actor portraying Cornelius Hickey is knocking it out of the park! He's got an amazing screen presence and he's just brought so much to the role.

It was devastating watching him get whipped, and his facial expressions were so raw and real... they were everything.

We watched a villain being born before our eyes.

On 4/10/2018 at 7:25 PM, Lithogirl said:

I keep wondering when Crozier is going to run out of liquor. He seems to drink it pretty liberally and they’ve been there awhile so if it were me, I might be starting to count bottles, you know? But I have no idea how many they brought, of course.

It looks like Crozier is drinking more than even he himself intended. He probably made provisions for his brooding over severed relationships and being spurned by the woman of his dreams, but now he knows that all the men could die under his command so I imagine he's doubling up on what little he does have left. That's just what guys like that do.

As the Captain he could order every bottle on the ship to be at his disposal which would be cruel because they need it for actual medical procedures... sanitizing wounds, pain relief, etc.

I'm envisioning a messy withdrawal replete with terrifying hallucinations.

And because this story makes the mystical so real, he may come in touch the the monster in his delusions.

This is pure unsubstantiated speculation on my part, but I would really like to see that happen!

This might be grasping at straws a bit, but something occurred to me when they were singing, "For he's a jolly good fellow."

Another popular rendition of the song is to sing, "The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see."

In this case it would be chillingly appropriate.

[Earlwoode]

9 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

On that note, I have absolutely no idea on how they would provision a ship for a minimum of two years travel, or five years if rationed (as was said at the London meeting).  How do you figure that out?

I've been wondering that too.  They don't seem like big ships and they have a lot of people aboard.  How do they heat the ships?  How can you survive -52 with no heat?  They do show some kind of brazier in the captain's cabin but what do they use for fuel?  How many supplies of food other staples would you need to keep these men fed and in some comfort for 3 years?  

As to Crozier, yeah the man seems to do nothing but drink.  Fitzjames tried to reason with him (I think) and asked him to lay off the booze. He, obviously, didn't listen.  Seems like he will run out soon and then what will he do?

13 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

So getting flogged "as a boy" is getting his ass whipped instead of his back.  Interesting.  If I were him, I would have been tempted to stick my ass in the snow.  Though leaving the ship might just get him flogged again.  It was also a good thing that he had his "package" stowed so it wasn't whipped, or he might just have been chasing his balls as they roll across the ship. 

Truly horrible.  I think the doctor treated him with salt water (OMG!!) probably to avoid infection.  Seems crazy to me to flog people and then get them treated by doctors. Sounds like the epitome of cynicism.  But then, by modern standards, these people were barbarians.

[Captanne]

I, too, must be inured to this sort of violence -- the flogging didn't bother me.  That's for a lot of reasons, though.  First, Easter just passed and we hear a lot about the 40 lashes (Jesus Christ Superstar is particularly brutal).  Also, this guy has been a twat for the whole four episodes we've seen so far and he violated the express orders of the Captain -- so, I'm not feeling much sympathy for him.  

As for taking him straight to the doctor?  I think the flogging is for the pain to the "criminal" as well as a deterrent to other crew members should they get any bright ideas.  Once the spectacle is over, though, they need him back to work asap.  An infection would simply render him useless.  So, they make a big show out of the punishment, and it lasts with him privately as pain and other torment (diminished rations) long after the main event.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Captanne

[MaryMatts]

49 minutes ago, Captanne said:

As for taking him straight to the doctor?  I think the flogging is for the pain to the "criminal" as well as a deterrent to other crew members should they get any bright ideas.  Once the spectacle is over, though, they need him back to work asap.  An infection would simply render him useless.  So, they make a big show out of the punishment, and it lasts with him privately as pain and other torment (diminished rations) long after the main event.

Make a big show?  Hell, it’s more than a big show to th guy getting flogged.  I doubt he’d be able to walk after that, let alone work in any capacity. And considering the primitive medical skills of the era, one wonders how many flogged men did indeed die of infections.  Before the advent od antibiotics, cuts and wounds were a big cause of death.

[proserpina65]

On ‎03‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 9:18 PM, saoirse said:

 

 

On ‎04‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 7:49 PM, MaryMatts said:

So Jesus that was an very intense episode.   I guess the "bear" is not a bear but some kind of monster/supernatural being?  It can climb ropes up to the sails?  Hmm....

 

Having said that, the most awful part of this episode was the brutal flogging scene.  Ugh just ugh!  What absolute barbarians these people were.  I was beginning to have a certain sympathy for Crozier but now I can't stand the bastard and hope he has a long, drawn-out painful death at the bear's claws.   He was totally vindictive and vicious.  Also, I'm having problems with hearing some of the dialogue like others have mentioned and I just don't understand why the men were sentenced to being flogged?  What did they do that merited such a punishment?  I get the Irish guy's sentence was augmented because he kept arguing with Crozier but what did they do that was so bad in the first place?

Insubordination and desertion (leaving the ship without permission) were the most serious charges.  The desertion charge alone could have gotten them a death sentence in the Georgian era, not sure if that was still a possible punishment in the Victorian navy.  Discipline in the Royal Navy could be brutal at times, but their actions could have created a mutiny (might still lead to one) and mutinies in situations like this were deadly.  Of course, it's not like any of them are likely to survive the creature now that they're holding Lady Silence prisoner. 

[proserpina65]

4 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

 

Insubordination and desertion (leaving the ship without permission) were the most serious charges.  The desertion charge alone could have gotten them a death sentence in the Georgian era, not sure if that was still a possible punishment in the Victorian navy.  Discipline in the Royal Navy could be brutal at times, but their actions could have created a mutiny (might still lead to one) and mutinies in situations like this were deadly.  Of course, it's not like any of them are likely to survive the creature now that they're holding Lady Silence prisoner. 

Having issues with the editing feature today but wanted to add that had Hickey done like the two other guys, kept his mouth shut and accepted his punishment, he wouldn't have suffered nearly as badly.

Also pointing out that I think flogging is horrible, but it was a fact of life in the Royal Navy at the time, and the men, other than Hickey, weren't completely surprised by the issuing of the punishment, just by the severity of his.

[proserpina65]

Quote

And what was with his mouth and teeth? Is that supposed to be a sign of lead poisoning?

Scurvy.  Which ships' crews dreaded more than anything, except possibly supernatural bear monsters.  There was no treatment and the end result was death.  The prevention was citric acid, and Royal Navy ships carried a supply of lime juice for just this purpose, but time, cold, and preservation methods lessened its strength.  Plus, being stuck for as long as they have been, it's probably running low.

[proserpina65]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:10 AM, Dowel Jones said:

Using it simply as a means of reinforcing discipline, however, would be counter-productive, as William Bligh found out in the next century. 

Previous century.  The Bounty mutiny was in 1789, the Franklin expedition began in 1845.  But otherwise, I agree.

[Dowel Jones]

Yup, you're right.  Must have been the Aurora Borealis that got me turned around.