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kariyaki

S04.E15: Nobody Else Is Dying

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5 minutes ago, doram said:

I understand this. As a black woman, seeing the pitchforks being brought out against a fictional black woman for doing no worse than any of the other characters on the show is personal for me, too. Which is why, as I said earlier, everything about this irritates me, both from a Doylian and a Watsonian stand-point. 

 

Simon has nothing, less than nothing, nada, niente. What's his testimony going to be exactly? That he was so terrified when he saw the K-5 that he shot himself? 

 

Concur. I was so happy to see Annalisse happy. She had won a great moral and legal victory. She got her god-son/honorary grand-son back. Her ungrateful children were safe. Anything that happens now will mess all that up. But I guess that's the price we pay to see Viola Davis be glorious every Thursday night. 

Last I checked, bragging about yelling at nurses, a joke Michaela said to Simon to put him at ease, isn't the same thing as yelling at nurses. But sure.

Maybe you have to be a nurse to get it.  But sure.

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I'm having a problem with all of this anger being thrown at Michaela when everybody on this show has either killed someone or covered up a murder.  Why suddenly is Michaela so wrong?  Why is she the worst of the worst?   I mean Wes actually killed Sam, Asher killed the DA (I think that's who she was), Frank killed Lila, Laurel might have killed her mother, etc.

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30 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I'm having a problem with all of this anger being thrown at Michaela when everybody on this show has either killed someone or covered up a murder.  Why suddenly is Michaela so wrong?  Why is she the worst of the worst?   I mean Wes actually killed Sam, Asher killed the DA (I think that's who she was), Frank killed Lila, Laurel might have killed her mother, etc.

That's why there's anger at all of these characters at one time or another. People didn't seem to like Wes much, Asher hasn't been a popular character, and Laurel hasn't gotten good reviews since before Wes' death. Frank's, somehow, the exception here. It's just this time, Michaela's doing something wrong and people can call her out on it. The first few seasons had her fairly sympathetic. But the way they've taken her character this season, although on track with how she's been moving as a character for the most part, hasn't been what I personally like. I love Michaela's ambition; I don't love her getting some deported on purpose. Just like I don't like Laurel's obsession with Wes, or Frank's obsession with Laurel, or Asher's comedic relief moments (which are 95% of his lines). 

Personally,  I wish they had more storyline with her mother than with Michaela cheating and then turning into season 1/2 Annalise. But I didn't like season 1/2 Annalise. 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm trying to recall exactly the words that Simon used as he lay in the hospital bed.  Michaela told him the deal when he awoke, and explained that she was there to comfort him and get him anything he needed, but, he wouldn't have any of it and pointblank challenged her.  Well, when you are not in the driver's seat you need to think about threatening people.  Michaela wasn't being mean spirited.  This was SELF PRESERVATION. He was foolish for not realizing that.  And he was foolish to push her, in light of his precarious situation. 

Michaela, in my opinion, was being both. What Michaela was doing in that moment was trying to manipulate Simon into staying quiet. She couldn't care less about Simon's well-being. Sure, he challenged her, and Michaela was absolutely acting out of self-preservation. She stated it herself that she was doing it to protect everybody, but also herself. But she also was being mean-spirited because she would have still done anything to keep him quiet. It wasn't until she met with him that she realized what they had to do without resorting to murder. Simon's a dick, but he's not someone that deserved to be framed for murder, accidentally shot by himself because Laurel stupidly brought a loaded gun to the law firm, and then deported shortly after being blackmailed. Sure, he's not a main character who we've been following around, and like 100% of the people on this show, major or otherwise, he's not really a good person. But has he murdered anyone and covered it up multiple times? No. So, for me, that still puts him ahead of all the main characters on this show. 

I guess he should really be lucky that he wasn't murdered and that at least going back to Pakistan means that he'll have his family. On the downside, he'll have to remain in the closet. 

Let's face it; if any of these people had a semblance of good outweighing the bad, they would have turned themselves in long ago. They're all despicable people. But because of that, I have to prioritize in my head who is the least bad person over others. Non-murderers do rank above murderers, so Asher, Bonnie, Frank, Wes, and potentially Laurel are already low on my list. 

However, in this finale, I was disappointed with Michaela, and that's ok. I've been disappointed with every single character thus far. Michaela's actually the last person I've been massively disappointed by. I'm impressed it took her four seasons to get there.

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41 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I'm having a problem with all of this anger being thrown at Michaela when everybody on this show has either killed someone or covered up a murder.  Why suddenly is Michaela so wrong?  Why is she the worst of the worst?   I mean Wes actually killed Sam, Asher killed the DA (I think that's who she was), Frank killed Lila, Laurel might have killed her mother, etc.

Because the characters on the show are acting like Michaela is "the worst" and has done something as reprehensible as murder.

In time, they will forget about this in the same way they have (mostly) forgotten about Asher running over Sinclair, with only a mention when it is convenient.

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When Nate was reading Bonnie’s file, weren’t there clippings on top about her abuse by a school janitor? I assumed that the kid was a result of that encounter, or another of her abusers.

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Count me in amongst the people that couldn't care less that Simon got deported.  He got what he deserved.  He maliciously slandered Annalise all last season, he's been at odds with the group, he was an arrogant snot.  MIchaela had to deal with him the most because they were at the same firm.

He threatened her.  She fought back.  I applaud her for doing so.  She helped save her friends.  And she has done nothing worse than others have.  Frank killing Lila and Rebecca, Asher running over Sinclair, Wes killing Sam, etc.

I assume this new kid is Bonnie's son and I am irritated with the resemblance to Wes.  The voice sounded so similar, I actually thought it WAS Wes.  Instead, it's Wes 2.0, with the same mixed race look and wavy black hair.  I hated the Wes character and the actor, and I know I will hate this actor.  Because he played Zende Forrester on "The Bold and the Beautiful".   He is such a thoroughly crapitudinous craptacular crappy actor.  He was so bad and boring that on the B&B board people called the character Zzzzzzzende because he put people to sleep. How can you suck so badly at your job and yet merit a promotion to a well-regarded prime time show with one of the greatest living actresses working today?  It boggles my mind. Was there no one better?

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This was a weird finale for sure (I too heard all the happy music and was waiting for bodies to start hitting the floor) but I'm not ready for the show to be over. Too many loose ends still need tying up. I'd be fine with one more season to do that, though at the pace this show goes we'd need two more to see the kiddos graduate from law school, unless they wanted to do some flashfowards which I'm remembering as I type this is not out of place for this show!

The scratches on Laurel's arms are definitely from Sandrine trying to claw herself to freedom while Laurel choked her to death, right?

I'm disappointed in that guy probably being Bonnie's son because I so wanted Bonnie's mystery kid to be Rebecca. That's the kind of nihilism I live for.

Lmao @ Nate saying there wasn't a file on him because he's so boring. Where is the lie?

Even in an oddly upbeat season finale, the Tinder nonsense between Bonnie and the other ADA felt like it belonged on a different show altogether.

In a vacuum what Michaela did was fucked up but I cannot bring myself to care. I don't think Simon deserved to be deported but he was such an annoying little buttmunch that I can't find any sympathy for him. He antagonized the group when he knew people had a habit of dropping dead around them, all because he was jealous he wasn't originally picked as a K5. We can be mad at Laurel for bringing the gun to the party all we want, but no one forced Simon to take the gun and wave it around like the ding dong he is. Why did he even get in the K5's business when he clearly had more important things to be worrying about?

Because an important thing to remember about all of the K5 is that despite all of the terrible things they've done, they all believe they were victims of circumstance and that any retribution they dole out is necessary. Fair or unfair, they pinpoint the exact moment their lives went to shit as being when Annalise picked them to be her interns. They all truly believe if they hadn't been picked or if they'd gone to another school altogether, they'd still be living normal lives. Anything they do to protect themselves from going to jail or ending up dead is because they still believe, at this point, that they deserve to hold on to the reputation they had when they first got to Middleton. Anything bad they do now is just a consequence of something worse that was somebody else's fault. Do not fuck with these people. They have everything to lose.

9 hours ago, Empress1 said:

While no one in Pakistan knows that Simon is gay or bi, it's still profoundly fucked up to have someone deported.Random question: what year are the students in? And frankly, I'm surprised that Connor is the only one who flunked out. Weren't they all at the bottom of their class because they spent all their time dealing with Annalise's fuckery?

They're finishing up their second year, one more to go (presumably two more seasons until they graduate, depending on how long the show runs for).

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I didn't pick up on that either and still don't understand what the speculation is based on. Do we have reason to think Bonnie had a kid by a Black man? Whatever, don't get too excited by the guy playing Gabriel. He recently left after a couple of years on The Bold and the Beautiful where he was a terrible actor even by soap standards. (Soaps are where a lot people get hired only for their looks on the usually mistaken belief that they can be taught to act later.)

In the episode with the flashback to Annalise and Bonnie meeting, we learned that Bonnie was raped repeatedly by a variety of men. She became pregnant and I believe her dad took the baby away and gave it up for adoption before she could even see him. Because there were so many men she doesn't know who the father is.

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36 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

They're finishing up their second year, one more to go (presumably two more seasons until they graduate, depending on how long the show runs for).

In the episode with the flashback to Annalise and Bonnie meeting, we learned that Bonnie was raped repeatedly by a variety of men. She became pregnant and I believe her dad took the baby away and gave it up for adoption before she could even see him. Because there were so many men she doesn't know who the father is.

I had no idea law school was only 3 years! What will they do when the K5 graduate (if they graduate)? I guess it will be set up more like this season than previous.

If Bonnie has no idea who the father is, how in the world does Frank know enough to recognize the child on sight?

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16 minutes ago, secnarf said:

If Bonnie has no idea who the father is, how in the world does Frank know enough to recognize the child on sight?

Someone else mentioned it upthread...Frank could have looked into it, maybe at Sam or Annalise's request, and kept tabs on him. People complain about Oliver being the deus ex machina with his hacking skills but really it's Frank. Is there any person or piece of information he hasn't been able to find with no explanation of his methods?

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4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

If Simon wasn't gay, would people feel bad about what Michaela did?  To me, him being gay came out of left field, we just found out this season.  I sense people felt more for him when they found that out, even though he'd done all kinds of shit to Annalise. 

No horse in the Is Michaela Irredeemable Race, but Simon being gay wasn't really out of left field at all to me. The fact that he came out as gay was more out of left field, because I thought they already established him as gay in S3, when he had that line to Connor about hooking up with Oliver after they broke up.

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I didn't pick up on that either and still don't understand what the speculation is based on. Do we have reason to think Bonnie had a kid by a Black man?

We know she was raped by several men when she got pregnant, one of them could've easily been a black man or a man of any race. We only know two of the men that raped her; her father and the man on trail in the flashbacks.

1 hour ago, Guy Caballaro said:

When Nate was reading Bonnie’s file, weren’t there clippings on top about her abuse by a school janitor? I assumed that the kid was a result of that encounter, or another of her abusers.

There were multiple press articles about her many cases, including the one about the specific councilman we saw being tried earlier in the season. But the Janitor mentioned in the headline of the article is her father. He was a janitor at City Hall and he would take her to work with him after school; his office was in the basement, and that was how so many councilmen were raping her. But yes, we know she got pregnant from one of the men raping her, but she doesn't know who.

21 minutes ago, secnarf said:

If Bonnie has no idea who the father is, how in the world does Frank know enough to recognize the child on sight?

Well, as far as we know, Bonnie doesn't know what happened, just what her father told her - that the baby died. But the fact that she said she "doesn't know" what happened to the baby when asked suggests she didn't believe her father. It's surely something she talked about and discussed with Sam in therapy (and Annalise knows from working the case), so it's not hard to believe one of them would've investigated it and used their resources to find out if the baby was alive and then find them. Frank was their lackey, he could've been the one finding him. The fact that Denver was able to find the DNA results and investigated it tells me it probably wasn't that hard.

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3 hours ago, doram said:

To get that people can be insensitive, tactless and offensive? That Michaela can be called a bitch for a triviality that won't even register coming from someone not-so-black, not-so-female? ? Sure. I'm a black nurse's kid. Believe me, I get it. 

You're really barking up the wrong tree here.  You don't know me, so please don't make assumptions.

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1 hour ago, secnarf said:

I had no idea law school was only 3 years! What will they do when the K5 graduate (if they graduate)? I guess it will be set up more like this season than previous.

There hasn't been much emphasis on law school since S1. It'd be pretty easy to transition to a scenario where all the remaining kids are associates for Annalise Keating and Associates, Bonnie becomes the new DA and, along with Nate, has an ongoing love-hate personal and professional  relationship with AK. 

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7 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

And that's the issue here. Not that the black girl Is morally compromised as someone else posted, Asher murdered an innocent woman in cold blood, they all cheat, they all cover up murders, you name it.

never thought about that what Boonie and Asher Oliver only none cheaters left? Frank had girlfriend back in season 1 did not tell Laurel about but how he tell it was over and I don't think Wes cheated on Maggie but moved on really fast

 

6 hours ago, Neurochick said:

My UO is I think this was a great SERIES finale.  I think the show should end now.  Annalise has done a great thing, she's come full circle.  Michaela is the new Annalise, and she's embracing it.  Connor and Oliver will get married and Asher, who's living in Laurel's old apartment will be the best man.  Laurel might have killed her mother, or maybe not, but she knows something, she's finally got her son.  Nate knows all their secrets.  Bonnie is looking for love in the right places, and maybe she has a son (but who's the father?).  I think the show can go out on this note or...

I did half hearty say show was still to up in the air for me but way you sum it up make sense it just the who the kid part that would bug me (but as someone said do i really care about random kid and truth is no i don't) but if they had left that out would be clean enough ending but with enough left open for us to decide our own ending. I honestly would not care if ended here but if was season 5 be OK with that to as long as it was the last

 

just been reading interview with Peter Nowalk just few snippets that seem relevant put in spoiler tag but i personally feel to vague be spoiler just more his view on future of the show

 

Spoiler

 

What is the current status of How to Get Away with Murder Season 5?
Nowalk:
We have not gotten official pickup yet, but we ended [this season] like there would be more, I think

 

 

This finale tied off a lot of loose ends. Why did you choose to do that?
Nowalk:
It was hopeful at the end. You know, we obviously do a lot of cliffhangers and stuff on the show. There are cliffhangers, though. There's "Who is Gabriel?" There's "Why does Laurel have scratches on her forearm?" And there's "What are in those files?"

 

Does tying up all the loose ends with those characters mean that there could be cast changes on the way?
Nowalk
: I hope not. I mean, I love my cast and I love these characters. I really believe that there's a lot more to discover, and those files are a symbol of that. What did Denver (Benito Martinez) dig up on them that maybe these characters don't even know about themselves, you know? And to me, this always goes back to the question of why did Annalise pick them. Was there a reason why she picked them in the beginning? Why has she stayed so loyal to them? So all of that is still to be investigated.

 

Do you have a plan in place for the end of the show that you're working towards?
Nowalk:
I have an idea for the last season, for sure. Obviously it's hard because you don't know when that last season's going to be. I've been pretty honest about this since the beginning, but it's like when you write a pilot, I didn't know who killed Sam. So am I the type of writer who knows how the show's going to end? No. And I think that's life. And these characters, like, people change really quickly. Trump became President and I feel like the whole world changed in a night. So that's kind of how I'm writing. I never thought Annalise would argue at the Supreme Court. I didn't think she'd give a sh-- about that. Now I'm really proud of her for that. I think there's a trajectory that I'm keeping in mind. I'm not wanting to get there too soon

 

With that in mind, would you be okay if the Season 4 finale did act as a series finale?
Nowalk:
No. Not at all. I don't want to end on a mystery. I'd want there to be answers. And I guess we'd have to make a movie or something. I would do it on my iPhone if I had to. Yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I didn't pick up on that either and still don't understand what the speculation is based on. Do we have reason to think Bonnie had a kid by a Black man? Whatever, don't get too excited by the guy playing Gabriel. He recently left after a couple of years on The Bold and the Beautiful where he was a terrible actor even by soap standards. (Soaps are where a lot people get hired only for their looks on the usually mistaken belief that they can be taught to act later.)


ah i did not know this caring less and less about Gabriel by minute maybe not knowing who he is won't bug me after all

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What I wondered is why Frank thought it was bad news that the kid was around. He seemed to know it was trouble, so he MUST have been following his life story.

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I would be perfectly happy to see the series end here.  Everyone was kind of in a good place, or at least a place where you would expect them to be. 

What disappointed me about Michaela was not that what she did was so much worse than what anyone else has done, but I held her to a higher standard.  She seemed like she had a certain moral compass that some of the others lacked, and maybe I misread her, but it was hard to watch her turn stone cold. 

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12 hours ago, secnarf said:

Am I missing something here? What is going to stop Simon from shouting from the rooftops what really happened that night? He can try to cut a deal with ICE to stay in the country, maybe try that whistleblower angle, apply for refugee status, etc. I don't see how reporting him to ICE to get him deported solves anything.

We're in a soap opera world, darling, which is completely different from the real world.    

Oh, forgot to say, it's definitely a risky job to be a DA in Philly, they die like fruit flies.  

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3 hours ago, Fable said:

What disappointed me about Michaela was not that what she did was so much worse than what anyone else has done, but I held her to a higher standard.  She seemed like she had a certain moral compass that some of the others lacked, and maybe I misread her, but it was hard to watch her turn stone cold. 

Michaela, unlike Conor, Laurel and Asher came from a tough background. She grew up as a foster child in the middle of nowhere, with "dirt poor," manipulative parents and somehow managed to overcome all of that to going to a great law school and being engaged to a well off man at the start of the show. She wasn't just smart, she was determined. When the others wanted to party, she wanted to study. She looked up to Annalise and the show hasn't led us to believe at the top of her game Annalise was a fierce opponent. So she picked wisely - on the surface.

Fast forward a few years later and now she's been involved in a few crimes, has managed to stay afloat in school, landed a prestigious summer gig alongside a woman she admired after beating everyone in her office & worked on a revolutionary Supreme Court case alongside Annalise. She also hooked up with a DC mover and shaker. I'd argue she's probably held it together better than anyone else on the series.

When it came to Simon: I think her survival instinct kicked in and she was willing to do whatever it took to protect the others and most important of all protect herself. That's what she's always done. 

When Conor would cry and complain and want to run to the police anytime anyone committed a crime: She'd snap him back into place.

When Asher would joke around and not take school seriously: She always remained steadfast.

When Laurel would fall apart whenever anything didn't go her way: Michaela kept her head on straight.

When Wes would get distracted by Rebecca/finding out the mysteries of his past/etc.: She was always smart enough to know when to drop someone. 

I adore her because she's great but I also understand she wasn't going to let Simon do anything to mess with her future after the amount of work she has had to do to get where she is. She didn't leave it up to Annalise to fix that. She did it herself. Killing him with her bare hands would have been out of character for her. Sending him away with a threat that no one would believe him if he talked is evil (because of where he's going) but a bit less harsh than ending his life.

However, I think we realize the real world implications of what she did to Simon and that makes it harder to take. Simon wasn't necessarily evil. He did cause a lot of trouble for the group prior to this and, while I don't think he deserves his "fate," after all the stuff he has said and done you'd think he'd have known better than to tango with any of the Keating 4/5.

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Missing in this discussion - who was Frank calling to report that "Looks like the good times didn't last long.  Her kid's here"?

Frank knows the kid's name - Gabriel Maddox and whoever he is calling is in their circle in some way if Frank is referring to the"good time" being short lived.

If we take the ending scenes as all happening in the same time frame -

-not Annalise - she's on the radio and then she's rocking and singing to baby Christopher

-not Laurel - she's freaking out over arm scratches in the shower

-not Nate - he's going through everyone else's dirt

-not Denver - dead

-not Jorge - jail

-not Bonnie - Frank would say "your kid" not "her kid"

We don't see the following in the ending montage -

-Michaela

-Connor

-Asher

-Oliver

Who the heck is Frank calling?

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I don't think it was a VM - they way he starts off with "Hey" and his pauses when he talks seems like actually talking to someone and not leaving a VM.

And saying "her kid" and not "Bonnie's kid" implies it's someone close enough to them that whoever it is knows Frank is talking about Bonnie without him having to say it.

But the "her kid" thing could be the writers being cute and trying to have the viewers wonder who the "her" is - Bonnie or Annalise?

But at the end, the biggest mystery to me wasn't did Laurel kill her mom or whose kid is that but who would Frank call about this?

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I guess if season 5 happens, we'll find out more about Bonnie's kid, his origins and where he's been all this time, etc. I realize I don't really care about Laurel's mother, though.

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2 hours ago, Bama said:

Missing in this discussion - who was Frank calling to report that "Looks like the good times didn't last long.  Her kid's here"?

Frank knows the kid's name - Gabriel Maddox and whoever he is calling is in their circle in some way if Frank is referring to the"good time" being short lived.

If we take the ending scenes as all happening in the same time frame -

-not Annalise - she's on the radio and then she's rocking and singing to baby Christopher

-not Laurel - she's freaking out over arm scratches in the shower

-not Nate - he's going through everyone else's dirt

-not Denver - dead

-not Jorge - jail

-not Bonnie - Frank would say "your kid" not "her kid"

We don't see the following in the ending montage -

-Michaela

-Connor

-Asher

-Oliver

Who the heck is Frank calling?

Just because we saw them in the ending montage, doesn't mean Frank wasn't talking to them. Those scenes don't necessarily have to have happened simultaneously. Remember the Wes flashbacks that meant he "couldn't" be the dead body?

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14 hours ago, project90 said:

never thought about that what Boonie and Asher Oliver only none cheaters left? 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

What is the current status of How to Get Away with Murder Season 5?
Nowalk:
We have not gotten official pickup yet, but we ended [this season] like there would be more, I think

 

 

This finale tied off a lot of loose ends. Why did you choose to do that?
Nowalk:
It was hopeful at the end. You know, we obviously do a lot of cliffhangers and stuff on the show. There are cliffhangers, though. There's "Who is Gabriel?" There's "Why does Laurel have scratches on her forearm?" And there's "What are in those files?"

 

Does tying up all the loose ends with those characters mean that there could be cast changes on the way?
Nowalk
: I hope not. I mean, I love my cast and I love these characters. I really believe that there's a lot more to discover, and those files are a symbol of that. What did Denver (Benito Martinez) dig up on them that maybe these characters don't even know about themselves, you know? And to me, this always goes back to the question of why did Annalise pick them. Was there a reason why she picked them in the beginning? Why has she stayed so loyal to them? So all of that is still to be investigated.

 

Do you have a plan in place for the end of the show that you're working towards?
Nowalk:
I have an idea for the last season, for sure. Obviously it's hard because you don't know when that last season's going to be. I've been pretty honest about this since the beginning, but it's like when you write a pilot, I didn't know who killed Sam. So am I the type of writer who knows how the show's going to end? No. And I think that's life. And these characters, like, people change really quickly. Trump became President and I feel like the whole world changed in a night. So that's kind of how I'm writing. I never thought Annalise would argue at the Supreme Court. I didn't think she'd give a sh-- about that. Now I'm really proud of her for that. I think there's a trajectory that I'm keeping in mind. I'm not wanting to get there too soon

 

With that in mind, would you be okay if the Season 4 finale did act as a series finale?
Nowalk:
No. Not at all. I don't want to end on a mystery. I'd want there to be answers. And I guess we'd have to make a movie or something. I would do it on my iPhone if I had to. Yeah.

 

 

 

Asher is a cheater, he was messing around with some girl we never saw when he was with Bonnie . She confronted him about it. She wanted to know why he started to stand her up and that's when they discussed some girl he was messing with.

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6 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Just because we saw them in the ending montage, doesn't mean Frank wasn't talking to them. Those scenes don't necessarily have to have happened simultaneously. Remember the Wes flashbacks that meant he "couldn't" be the dead body?

I agree. They're mostly likely all the same day, but I don't think they're meant to be the exact moment. They obviously want us to question who he's talking to, so they're not gonna show us who was on the other end of the phone, but that isn't to say it isn't any of the main characters just because we didn't see them answer.

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13 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Asher is a cheater, he was messing around with some girl we never saw when he was with Bonnie . She confronted him about it. She wanted to know why he started to stand her up and that's when they discussed some girl he was messing with.

As far as I remember, Sinclair sent him a photo of a girl, whose rape his dad covered up, to blackmail him, Bonnie saw this photo and initially he was cheating before she learned the truth.

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Well, it seems Frank's not the only sociopath on this show, doesn't it, Laurel? They've been hinting at this for a little while now; the idea that we don't really know Laurel as well as we think we do. First Dominic said it to Frank as he pummeled him to death. Then her father hinted at it to Annalise. And now we're seeing first hand that there is a possibility that the apple didn't fall far from the tree and she might just be capable of harming her own mother. Having nightmares about the argument and then later showing signs of a struggle? Hmm...

Michaela is on another level of evil. What she did was unjustified and inhumanely cruel. And as I've never rooted for her and Asher's relationship (simply because his nice guy demeanor seemed to clash with her mean girl one) I am very happy to see he's finally come to his senses (hopefully he stays there). 

I doubt we've heard the last of Jorge Castillo. I'm sure he's already planning his revenge from behind bars.

On 3/16/2018 at 8:16 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Do we have reason to think Bonnie had a kid by a Black man?

Just to clear some things up for people with this question. In the flashback episode of Bonnie on the stand during her attacker's trial, it was revealed that her father not only raped her but pimped her out to other politicians and people of power. Now let's try and think if we've met any high profile black men who might fit the bill (or if this will be someone introduced later).

Other than that, it was nice to see Annalise smiling and happy as she reclaimed a small piece of Wes (and her own lost little boy).

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On 3/16/2018 at 3:37 AM, NUguy514 said:

 

I love me some Tegan.  I hope she sticks around.

I love her, too, but don’t think that’s happening. Amirah Vann is now in NYC filming an ABC pilot called The Finest in which she plays one of five sisters who also happen to be police officers. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 12:25 PM, Bama said:

Missing in this discussion - who was Frank calling to report that "Looks like the good times didn't last long.  Her kid's here"?

Frank knows the kid's name - Gabriel Maddox and whoever he is calling is in their circle in some way if Frank is referring to the"good time" being short lived.

I had been wondering about this as well.

Assuming, as you do, this was realish time, I concluded he was talking to Nate...they both have been her "go to" guys; she has perhaps talked to one or both about the pregnancy; each of them knowing that she relies on both of them, they talk to each other to keep an eye out for her. Maybe they've been checking to confirm the story on the baby dying (or not), they find a name, connect that name to someone enrolling in the law school, Frank goes to investigate, Nate finds the file....and whoopsie, what they feared is confirmed on both ends. 

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We know she was raped by several men when she got pregnant, one of them could've easily been a black man or a man of any race. We only know two of the men that raped her; her father and the man on trail in the flashbacks.

Yes. And to clarify, I have zero issue with Bonnie's possibly having had a baby by a Black man. (The likelihood that the child was the result of rape and was then absconded with would be the problem, especially for Bonnie's mental health.) It's just that right now I don't think there's any real basis to make any assumptions about the possible child's race.

I went back and watched the episode where Bonnie's horrible history came out. In a flashback she said in court that she'd been raped by dozens of men and didn't try to remember their faces. She also said they'd all--except for the councilman now on trial--been sent to prison.

Then, in an earlier, present-day scene she was reviewing Annalise's potential candidates for the class action suit and she had a moment staring at one particular Black inmate. Later we see her meeting with him at the prison to convince him to leave the class action suit. I doubt she probably would've been so nonchalant about talking to him if she thought he was one of her rapists. So, this thing about Gabriel being her son still seems like a big leap to me given the information provided so far.

I could easier see some weird retcon where this Gabriel turns out to be Anna's child. However, he appears to be younger than Wes so it's hard to imagine Anna had a kid and then just forgot about him. Women finding out a child they thought they'd miscarried or whatever magically turns out to be alive decades later is one of the worst retcons used on daytime soaps to introduce new children for established characters. I'd have to give HTGAWM some major side-eye if they pull a stunt like that.

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On 3/15/2018 at 10:06 PM, Neurochick said:

I liked this finale because there wasn’t any WTF moments at the end, just Annalise singing to a cute baby.

 

I kept expecting someone to shoot Annalise at the end.

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I was expecting a body to show up at the end. Almost everyone was too happy, although it was nice not seeing them all stressed out. And then I remember several of them are murderers.

I only just got interested in this show again, with the end, and the mystery man showing up, and now it's over until September. I wish they hadn't got rid of Wes, though. Wait-list. 

I don't understand why people are talking as though the show has been cancelled, but that would make a good finale. I loved the ending with Annalise and the baby. 

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Semi-random thoughts on rewatch

I miss old-school HBIC AK. I know that Viola got to do a lot of acting to work through the alcoholism, self-destructiveness and other issues, but what drew me into the show is AK taking care of everything that came her way and then some. 

It kinda came in at the end and doesn't seem like it has been discussed much, but AK winning the Supreme Court case would be a much bigger deal. Under such a ruling, pretty much any criminal case involving a public defender -- probably hundreds of thousands of cases nationwide -- would have to get at least re-examined I'm too cynical to think that even make-believe justices would accept the consequences of such a ruling.

AK as a solo practitioner doesn't have the wherewithal to represent the 63 (or whatever) plaintiffs in their new trials, let alone the new business her SCOTUS win would bring. I sort of think they should fast-forward to when the remaining K4 are actual attorneys. Doing another season or two with them in law school doesn't make sense.  

It doesn't seem likely, though, that Nate or the news would have learned about the opinion before AK did.

Laurel: Could be the scratches on her arm were defense wounds from her mom attacking her, could be the scratches are wounds from Mom attacking Laurel. Could be they are unrelated, perhaps her cutting herself. Dunno if I care. As psycho as Laurel might be, I don't see her carrying out the killing of her mom without getting Frank to clean up for her, and without admitting to Frank what she did.

Connor/Oliver: Seems crazy that Connor went from being accepted to transfer to Stanford University Law School to literally failing out of school during the course of one semester. (It also seems like it would take a lot on his part to literally fail out of law school, since everything is graded on a curve. Failing one or several classes? Sure. But failing with his smarts after first year, the tough year, is out of the way? Not buying it.  Oliver's getting kicked out of Simon's hospital room seems super arbitrary, too. What made Simon turn on Oliver all the sudden. I think their wedding is a mistake. I think that Oliver naming Asher as his best man is setting up an awkward situation where Connor asks Michaela to be his best person. And speaking of...

Michaela/Asher: I know it sucks to be cheated on, but Asher almost made me sympathize with Michaela with all his over-the-top bitterness. Honestly, if a one-night stand can bring all that much nastiness, Michaela, you dodged a bullet, girl. I'm half-hoping that after Scandal finishes, Marcus crosses over to Scandal and starts up a proper relationship with Michaela.

Bonnie: I didn't notice the first time that she and Lame D.A. had both been on the not!Tinder and are now matched. Kinda awkward, kinda think Bon-Bon can and should do better for herself, kinda hope she's flirting with him as a means to some unspecified end.

Nate: You old dog, claiming to have destroyed the files but totally keeping them. Did I miss it and there wasn't a Keating file? Do we think he was telling the truth about there being no Lahey file? That doesn't make sense, since his office literally prosecuted Nate.

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5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Could be they are unrelated, perhaps her cutting herself.

I'd thought of that possibility, too, yeah. They made so much this season of her dad trying to claim she had mental illness issues and such, and despite her constant denials and insistence she was fine in that regard, given some of her behavior this season, and the trauma she's been through recently in regards to her son, I'm wondering if it'll be revealed there's some truth to what her father says about her. 

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I was hoping Laurel would be killed off.  I can't stand her mouth-agape looks devoid of expression or her "mother's" accent that comes & goes.  It would not surprise me if Laurel killed a friend or sibling as a kid which is why both parents try to control her.

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On 3/16/2018 at 2:51 PM, Neurochick said:

Last season folks hated Simon and probably didn't care what the hell would happen to him.  Today it's "poor Simon."  I don't get it.   I don't get why folks are so focused on what Michaela did, when the rest of them are pretty awful.  Asher killed someone and everybody seems to have forgotten that.  

I don't feel sorry for Simon at all.  He shouldn't have done what he did to Annalise.  Had he not been a jealous asshole, he probably wouldn't have ended up the way he did.  What Michaela did might not have been nice and kind, but as she told Annalise, she did what she had to do to keep the rest of them safe, which was why Annalise really didn't have much to say to her.

As for her being morally compromised, well, all of them are.  I mean, Laurel probably killed her own mother.

Simon can “suck iiiiiiiittttttt” (in my Psych singing voice). He damn sure would have held what he knows over their heads. Good riddance. 

Dont really care what happened to Laurel’s mom or it Laurel killed her. They can both leave my tv screen forever. 

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Simon holding what he knows over their heads wouldn't be wrong, though. They are in fact guilty as hell. They didn't shoot him, but they were plotting to ruin his life. Our Heroes have committed multiple murders, and are corrupt as hell. Simon's a dick, but as far as we know he hasn't murdered multiple people. He's just kind of a troll. I don't think we have to like him to think he got screwed.

It's kind of terrifying how much we all root for everyone to get away with murder and other awful things on this show. The K5 group keeps asking why these terrible things keep happening to them, but it's their own damn fault at this point.

Frank and Bonnie don't ask that question. They seem to have fully accepted it. It seemed like Michaela's come around to that point of view now, too, even though in the beginning she and Connor were the ones who wanted to go to the police and confess. He now says they are all terrible people, but she says no. She's fully embraced it now.

Anna's really the only one who has gotten less corrupt over time.

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If it wasn't for the Sandrine and Gabriel bits, this probably could've been a series finale. Laurel's dad got sent to prison, Wes's death was avenged, the class action was won and Annalise seemed to be in a happy place as well.

Of course I am glad that it will come back next season though, one assumes. Gabriel is Bonnie's son, right? How quick that Frank spotted him though.

I'm liking the Asher/Oliver bromance and Connor applying to law school again.

I get what Michaela did what she did but it was still a rather low thing to do to Simon nonetheless. 

Laurel probably didn't kill her mother but she definitely knows more than she's letting on though, 8/10

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Maybe Laurel will turn into a zombie. Those scratches looked like izombie scratches.

 

I am going to imagine Laurel and Frank and Bonnie as zombies over the hiatus. The show can transform into How To Get Away, and show the three of them on a zombie vacation, being sullen and withdrawn while sipping bloody margaritas.

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I think maybe people expected better from Michaela and that's why people are annoyed with her. I know that's why I am. I didn't really think it was in her character to do that to Simon. In previous blunders, mostly caused by either Wes or Laurel, everyone had been acting on pure instinct and/or stupidity. This move was premeditated and  calculating, and that's probably what makes it a little different. I actually thought what Michaela did was more of a Laurel move rather than a Michaela move. Laurel has always struck me as the stinkiest one morally out of all of them. I really wouldn't be surprised if she really did kill her mother.

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Please, Simon threaten Mickeys existence by threatening to send her to jail. It's kill or be killed. People stuck on his damn orientation, and I don't care in this case because he threatened her with her freedom end of story, she fought back.

Who told that fool to follow them upstairs? Who told him to point another person's gun at them, which  he stole out of her bag. Whatever, it's his damn fault that he's been sentenced to now live life in the closet. Bye Simon, just bye.

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Yeah, I can't see any rationale for blaming Simon for the others' framing him for their crime.  That's...no.  Michaela did what she thought she had to do, but that doesn't mean Simon deserved it.  He's a shithead, but he is, in fact, the victim in this particular instance.  Full stop.

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On 3/20/2018 at 11:34 PM, possibilities said:

I am going to imagine Laurel and Frank and Bonnie as zombies over the hiatus. The show can transform into How To Get Away, and show the three of them on a zombie vacation, being sullen and withdrawn while sipping bloody margaritas.

I'd be SO there for this spinoff!

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On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 7:12 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I did not realize he was the kid from Nip/Tuck.  He used to be gorgeous, now he's a total weasel.

How do you forget a face like his!?

 

I agree with the previous poster. His acting is dubious.

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Oh, I blame Oliver plenty.  He's a hypocritical shithead.  However, Michaela made the choice to have him deported, and I hold her and only her to blame for that.

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Everyone on the show was corrupt as hell. Wes was probably the least corrupt/purest of motive of all of them, and he's now dead and framed for murder.

Simon was a troll, but he wasn't an actual murderer or conspirator and now his life is ruined. If we really think he got what he deserved, then Our Heroes all deserve a whole lot worse, so of course a lot of people are unhappy with this episode's events.

I just think there's no way to take the moral high ground while defending or rooting for any of the main characters. They've all either murdered someone, framed someone, covered up a serious crime, committed a serious crime, or pro-actively destroyed someone's life, and that includes all of them, even the ones I consider to still feel the most guilt about it and who are still trying to hang on to at least a few lines they won't cross.

Michaela used to be one of the ones I thought was least (relatively) culpable, but even she was willing to participate in a lot of shady shit, and now she's crossed over into "no line I won't cross to save my own ass" so I agree that the disappointment about that is part of what is causing people to react negatively to what she did. I don't think anyone has called for her to be punished, any more than people have called for Asher or Bonnie or Frank to be punished. But Michaela took another step toward ruthlessness and corruption, and it's not something to be happy about, I don't think. Some degree of horror strikes me as perfectly reasonable.

I also agree that Asher and Bonnie and Frank have done even worse. Bonnie and Frank pre-meditated bare hands murder of people who were completely innocent of anything whatsoever, so it's not like what Michaela did was worse than that. And Asher killed Sinclair; it wasn't pre-meditated and Sinclair was annoying, but in a lot of ways Sinclair was actually right in going after Anna and A's associates, who were in fact guilty and corrupt as hell. So, he doesn't get a pass, or shouldn't.

There may be some double standard in terms of how people hold Michaela to a higher standard. But rather than give her a pass, I think the healthier thing would be to hold them all to the higher standard, because all of them were acting in self-preservation mode one way or another, and trying to get away with things at the expense of people who were totally or mostly innocent of any serious crime, and by subverting the rule of law.

It's easy to see why they do what they do. They are in bad situations, and the system itself is untrustworthy and corrupt. It's a spiral dragging everyone down, because once you get caught up in the system, there's a very good chance the outcome will be unfair, non-redemptive, and generally destructive. One of the things I like about the show is that it has, since the very beginning, showed that the justice system is anything but fair or geared towards righting wrongs. It's a game, it's stacked, even when a crime is "solved" the results make things worse and don't really solve any of the problems that led to the crime in the first place, it's a complete disaster and offers no good options. Having SCOTUS accept and rule for Anna's case was I think the first time we've actually seen the courts do anything really good, and it actually seems out of character for the show, and not entirely credible because what she was arguing is a real world problem that everyone knows about and which isn't anywhere on the horizon for being fixed in the real world.

I think basically that the show is showing how lives are destroyed by the system, and how hard it is to reverse the trend once it starts.

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I just think there's no way to take the moral high ground while defending or rooting for any of the main characters. They've all either murdered someone, framed someone, covered up a serious crime, committed a serious crime, or pro-actively destroyed someone's life, and that includes all of them, even the ones I consider to still feel the most guilt about it and who are still trying to hang on to at least a few lines they won't cross.

possibilities, your comment reminds me that I just marvel at how Nate not only still hangs around Anna and the K4, when she framed him for Sam's murder, while the rest of them tacitly co-signed it. At the very least, he should be letting them twist in the wind every time they get into a new predicament. 

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:53 PM, Neurochick said:

I'm having a problem with all of this anger being thrown at Michaela when everybody on this show has either killed someone or covered up a murder.  Why suddenly is Michaela so wrong?  Why is she the worst of the worst?   I mean Wes actually killed Sam, Asher killed the DA (I think that's who she was), Frank killed Lila, Laurel might have killed her mother, etc.

Honestly ... why do people keep forgetting that Wes killed Sam in self-defense (of others)???  It's not the same thing as the rest of the  things listed.  We also have no idea whether or not Laurel killed her mom.  You did forget to list that Bonnie killed Rebecca.

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Because he did it while they were at the house committing a crime of their own?  Because even after Sam had been thrown from the stairs, instead of running or calling the police, he finished him off?  Because he convinced the others to cover it up?  Because his insta-love for some girl who barely talked to him from across the hall before retreating to her apartment was annoying?  (OK, maybe that last one is just me. :-P  )

ETA: And because he didn't seem to have a problem with any of it?  No remorse, no nothing.

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3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Because he did it while they were at the house committing a crime of their own?  Because even after Sam had been thrown from the stairs, instead of running or calling the police, he finished him off?  Because he convinced the others to cover it up?  Because his insta-love for some girl who barely talked to him from across the hall before retreating to her apartment was annoying?  (OK, maybe that last one is just me. :-P  )

ETA: And because he didn't seem to have a problem with any of it?  No remorse, no nothing.

Yeah, I mean, I could never co-sign on Wes' behavior as simple self defense when is came to Sam.  Maybe it was the way Alfie Enoch portrayed Wes as being rather cold and remorseless about Sam in the aftermath that made it not feel like a clear case of self defense.  Connor and Michaela were freaking out and wanting to call the ambulance and the police.  But Wes shot that down and went straight to the cover up disposal of the body.  I mean there were times when Alfie would get this blank look on his face and make Wes seem like a borderline sociopath. Honestly, I couldn't stand him because of his obsession with Rebecca who just did not seem worth it, but after Sam's death between him and Laurel, they pretty much emotionally blackmailed Connor and Michaela into going along and then it became something that was held over their heads from that point on. 

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