S07.E13: Knightfall

[formerlyfreedom]

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Rogers strikes a deal with Eloise despite Tilly’s fair warning, while Ivy struggles to find herself after Victoria’s death. Meanwhile, in a faraway realm, Hook confronts Captain Ahab over a legendary magical talisman which can free Alice, only to learn that his quest may have unintended consequences.

[Rumsy4]

Alice/Tilly seems to have some kind of magical power that gives her foresight. I think they're leading up to her being the Guardian. But I don't want that for Alice. She needs to live a normal life and not turn into freaking Merlin. 

Wee!Alice was so sweet. Whook called her "Starfish" and his "Little Rook". I loved the paintings done by father and daughter.

I missed the part of how Gothel managed to Curse WHook (livestream troubles again). Could anyone fill me in on that? Was it in the bullet? Alice was so young when Gothel cursed them. :-/ Are we actually going to see WHook trying to sneak back up and play chess with Alice like he said in the second episode, or is this all the explanation we're going to get?

What was the point of Ahab? It should've been Wish Blackbeard. At least he was fun. Ahab didn't have any presence--he was just another literary namedrop.

WRumple really seemed a bit OTT insane. More like the Rumple from the pilot episode than later. I guess having just rats and leeches to talk to did a number on him.

Nice to see that Ivy showed some growth. 

The less said about Roni's Walk of Shame the better.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Rumsy4
where is everybody :-p

[Shanna Marie]

19 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I missed the part of how Gothel managed to Curse WHook (livestream troubles again). Could anyone fill me in on that? Was it in the bullet?

Yes, it was in the bullet. I kept waiting for Ahab to poof away and it be revealed that it was Gothel in disguise. We didn't see where/when/how she set up the bullet, if she put Ahab up to the duel challenge or was, in fact, pretending to be Ahab.

It would be nice to know how Whook was traveling not only between realms, but between universes, and without his ship.

Also, it's interesting to see that Whook started to get gray hair in the 10 or so years after Alice's birth, but Hook Prime didn't age a moment in the (maybe) 10-15 years between the end of season 6 and when he showed up to rescue adult Henry. Not to mention Zelena not aging in the 25 or so years of Robyn's life, etc.

I will say that this episode actually surprised me. After all Ivy's talk about turning over a new leaf, making a fresh start, etc., I was fairly certain that the episode-ending cliffhanger would be Ivy being killed by whoever's killing the Coven. She's got Marked For Death all over her.

I have mixed feelings about the flashback plot. On the one hand, it's a little annoying that this was pretty much a copy of the season 3 episode in which Blackbeard taunted Hook Prime about going soft and Hook Prime made the bad choice, but on the other hand, I guess it shows that the Hooks are basically the same person, that Whook may have changed some but is still the same guy. It might have worked better if it had been Blackbeard, to make it look like the parallels were deliberate, rather than them only knowing how to write one kind of Hook story.

I'm really wondering why Weaver hasn't done something to wake up Rogers. That would save him so much trouble. Why can't he use the same potion Regina used?

[Worsel]

This was a better episode than last week.  

I enjoyed seeing Smee again but I do wonder why he has not aged; Whook was much older until he was de-aged with magic, so wouldn't Smee also be older?

And I agree that Whook is almost the same as Hook Prime, it is kind of a shame they are not writing Whook as a more different and distinct character.  Ahab was disappointing, I think they could have substituted any other character for the plot, there was nothing distinct and interesting written for this character either.

I loved seeing sparkly WRumple again, complete with manic giggling and clapping hands.  I am hoping for a meeting of the two Rumples, I think it would be a lot of fun.

It bears repeating that Henry and Ivy still have better chemistry than Henry and Jacinda.

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm so confused about this Wish Realm stuff and who are "our" characters and who are not.

Does anyone else feel like the production design is bad? Everything looks so cheap to me. Like the hospital and police station. Storybrooke was so much better.

Great, now Regina gets to do "operations" with Lucy when it should be Emma. So annoying.

[Shanna Marie]

19 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Great, now Regina gets to do "operations" with Lucy when it should be Emma. So annoying.

And it's interesting how non-curious Lucy seems to be. She finds out that Roni is really Regina and it's all true -- and wait, had she ever even figured out that Roni was Regina before? I thought she hadn't made that connection. We've even talked about how odd it is that she hasn't figured out the original characters who actually would have been in the book she had -- and she doesn't even ask about Storybrooke, doesn't suggest going to them for help, doesn't ask about her other grandmother.

[thuganomics85]

Was trying to figure out where I've seen Captain Ahab before, and quick jaunt to IMDB says that the actor (Chad Rook) played Karl on Timeless, so that's probably it.  He was fine, but I kept getting the sense that the story would have made more sense if Hook was dealing with Blackbeard again instead.  Then again, I don't even remember what happened to Blackbeard.  And I'm guessing bringing in Maori's hook was to now connect Moana into this crazy universe.  But, anyway, this wasn't a bad flashback, but basically there to show how Hook got cursed due to letting his pride prevent him from going straight back to Alice, and Gothel taking advantage of that.

Robert Carlyle seemed extra campy this go around as Dark One Rumple.  It's like he's been so bored with the majority of this season, that he is glad to let loose again.

I don't know if I'm kind of impressed or scared over how quickly Lucy used Victoria's death as an excuse for why she suddenly didn't want Henry and Jacinda together anymore.  I'm certainly not going to shed tears for good old Victoria, but that is quite manipulative of Lucy.

Drizella is back and now wants to try and be a better person know.  I doubt it will work out, but I'm all for watching Adelaide Kane continue to be one of the best things about this season.

So, now, Alice/"Tilly" is a "suspect" for the Coven murders, even though both Hook and Rumple doubt it.

You know, the whole "Operations" theme always was kind of silly, but seeing Regina and Lucy preparing to do one suddenly makes me yearn for the times when it was Emma and old (err, young?) Henry.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yes, it was in the bullet. I kept waiting for Ahab to poof away and it be revealed that it was Gothel in disguise. We didn't see where/when/how she set up the bullet, if she put Ahab up to the duel challenge or was, in fact, pretending to be Ahab.

Thank you. And yes—they should’ve explained how Gothel managed to poison the bullet anx why?

[daxx]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Also, it's interesting to see that Whook started to get gray hair in the 10 or so years after Alice's birth, but Hook Prime didn't age a moment in the (maybe) 10-15 years between the end of season 6 and when he showed up to rescue adult Henry.

In Storybrooke he’s using Grecian formula for men of course. 

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yes, it was in the bullet. I kept waiting for Ahab to poof away and it be revealed that it was Gothel in disguise. We didn't see where/when/how she set up the bullet, if she put Ahab up to the duel challenge or was, in fact, pretending to be Ahab.

I guess I'm dense but I totally missed that.  I assumed Gothel just Cursed Whook and Alice when she appeared in the Tower.  I suppose it makes sense it's the bullet, but why would she need a physical object to give someone a Cursed heart, or whatever it was called?  I guess I must have forgotten the "mythology" of how it worked.

I was disappointed in the flashback and found it rather tedious.  The whole "letting his pride get the better of him" bit was totally unconvincing.  If that had been the case, they should have made Whook seem like he cared about his pride as a pirate.  I actually thought he had second thoughts about setting a villain like WRumple free.  As it stood, it was just a contrived way to make Whook blame himself for becoming Cursed.  I give this flashback one negative useless fish hook out of five.  

So did the Disenchanted Forest not have a Rumple-like figure?  It didn't have its own Captain Hook or Smee?  Where is Whook getting all his magic beans from?

The present-day storyline was slightly better, but as per usual with this show, it was a bunch of round-about manipulation by a villain whose motives are unclear even by the end.  If Gothel cared about her Coven, why would she distract Rogers and Weaver with that chocolate stuff?  I'm assuming this will all make sense by the end, but I have my doubts.  As mentioned above, Weaver not trying to find a way to wake Rogers makes no sense.  What's the point of this bending over backwards to work with an unwoken Rogers?  Why wasn't Weaver trying to talk one-on-one with Gothel?  The cynical side of me says this is basically spinning their wheels.

I will admit that Gothel waving at Alice through the video screen was genuinely creepy.

I wanted to see more of the Blind Witch so of course, she's goners.  

Does A&E think Henry is so desirable that Drizella would throw herself at him?  Overall, I must say the actress who played Ivy won me over when I had lost all hope for her.  I actually felt badly for her and I didn't think her scene with Jacinda was all that bad, considering.  Though the fact that she intentionally tried to seduce Henry while awake and knowing he was her stepsister's husband sort of counteracts her redemption arc, but I guess we're not supposed to remember that scene since she decided not to do it again.

"The Mills Family - we save people".  Most inaccurate slogan, ever.

They really had to clunk us over the head with the Operation names and the walkie talkies, eh?  This is just like Season 1... not.

You can tell Henry is such a great author by the way he talks.  "I tried all sorts of stupid things to make me feel better."  Isn't that grammatically incorrect, or does it just sound awkward?

I really liked the follow-up stuff Tiana, Naveen and Dr. Facilier got in this episode.  So satisfying after last week.  They should just start the previouslies with "Two weeks ago...".

Edited March 17, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Are we actually going to see WHook trying to sneak back up and play chess with Alice like he said in the second episode, or is this all the explanation we're going to get?

 

I think the chess playing was supposed to precede the poisoned heart curse.

Here was what Whook said in Episode 2:

A vengeful witch trapped her in a prison.
Every day, I'd sneak in to play chess with her.
But I was discovered and punished.
My heart was poisoned. Cursed.
So I can never save her.

That explanation doesn't completely match what later happened, probably because A&E hadn't made it up yet.  Gothel didn't trap Alice in a prison because she was "vengeful".  She needed to do that to get out.  It seemed like Whook was coming and going and Gothel was never around, so did he really have to "sneak in" every day?  He made it sound like that's why he was discovered and punished.  It seemed like Gothel just couldn't care less, until she found out (somehow) that he was trying to get Alice out?  Why wouldn't she expect that anyway?  

Wow, this place is as active as a Coven meeting after the latest attack.  I know it's dark after knightfall and everything, but still...

Edited March 17, 2018 by Camera One

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

"The Mills Family - we save people".  Most inaccurate slogan, ever.

Wasn't it something like We're the Mills family- We're heroes- We save people."

It had that air of Eau de Smug about it. 

I think one of the problems with Roni is that she has no internal conflicts left.  They gave her a happy ending in Storybrooke and she spent 10 years fighting for some nebulous resistance and poof she's the heroine.  And that's it.   She's not at all interesting as a character.  Duller than dirt compared to any version of Regina or EQ that came before, even the ones I used to complain about.

[CCTC]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

The whole "letting his pride get the better of him" bit was totally unconvincing.

Yes - he cared enough about his daughter that he was willing to move on from his life long revenge with Rumple and seemed to want to live a normal life with her more than anything.   If he was able to move past his need for revenge with someone he had hated with a passion, it seemed contrived he could be waylaid with a duel by being called not cool by someone he did not have a personal history.  It did not help that Ahab did not have a lot of presence and did not seem like someone who should have been able to manipulate Hook.   I did think Goethel came off as more truly menacing and evil than she has in a while.  I appreciated some of that, but it does make me hope even more they are not going to try and sad story redeem her.

The Hook-Alice scenes were nice, but my heart has gotten a bit black because Tilly now kind of annoys me and I don't really care about her.  I think part of the problem, is when a particular story line is not part of the main plot, they don't show it at all.  You go weeks or months without seeing particular relationships and you miss any development or anything that has developed has lost any of its momentum.  Even Ivy and Jacinda have not had any significant time together since early in the season, so it took away from when they were trying to show their family bond and history.   They did the same thing last year - they would introduce a story line or development and then ignore it for months and then expect you to care about something that you did not even completely remember.   Now Ivy is going to try to save or bond with Anastasia, but this is someone we have not seen for awhile  and do really care about and have seen nothing that would make us care for an Ivy-Anastasia relationship/bond.

The Henry-Roni scenes still have that vague undertone of inappropriate non-parental interactions.  It did not help that he ran into her coming from an overnight.

[Guest]

This episode did prove that despite everything, I still go into episodes expecting more than they will ever deliver.

At one point they were talking about victims... the Doctor, the baker...  And I immediately went to the candlestick maker.  Rub a dub dub.  Are they really going to do a nursery rhyme killer.  That would be fitting for a fairytale community.  

But nope, its the Butcher, the Baker,....

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was disappointed in the flashback and found it rather tedious.  The whole "letting his pride get the better of him" bit was totally unconvincing.  If that had been the case, they should have made Whook seem like he cared about his pride as a pirate.  ...  As it stood, it was just a contrived way to make Whook blame himself for becoming Cursed. 

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

it seemed contrived he could be waylaid with a duel by being called not cool by someone he did not have a personal history. 

It made zero sense for WHook to risk his life on a pointless duel with an unknown pirate when he had a daughter who was completely dependent on him. They weren't even in the same Realm anymore. Hook Prime was still reckless in many ways. But WHook had become responsible. As usual, the writers ignore character motivations to push plot forward.

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

The present-day storyline was slightly better, but as per usual with this show, it was a bunch of round-about manipulation by a villain whose motives are unclear even by the end.

It's really frustrating that we still don't know what Gothel is aiming for. Strike frustrated. I'm not even invested. Villains with vaguely menacing motivations aren't interesting. The season is almost over, and we still don't know what the central conflict is.

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

I think part of the problem, is when a particular story line is not part of the main plot, they don't show it at all.  You go weeks or months without seeing particular relationships and you miss any development or anything that has developed has lost any of its momentum. 

 Yeah. The Knight Rook storyline, which was very interesting in the first half of the season, got derailed by all the other plots. It's hard to get as invested as before, even if this is still the most interesting part of the season for me. 

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

The Henry-Roni scenes still have that vague undertone of inappropriate non-parental interactions.  It did not help that he ran into her coming from an overnight.

Yup. And it didn't help that Roni was walking in an awkward and shifty manner. It felt very unnatural.

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

This episode did prove that despite everything, I still go into episodes expecting more than they will ever deliver.

Word. 

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Worsel said:

And I agree that Whook is almost the same as Hook Prime, it is kind of a shame they are not writing Whook as a more different and distinct character.

I think generally Whook has been shown as a different character, though I think it's more in the acting than in the writing. Whook seems softer and more vulnerable than Hook Prime. That's why repeating almost the exact same character dilemma and having it go the exact same way is weird. Yes, it's consistent, but it shouldn't be consistent at this point in his life. When Hook Prime refused to help Ariel because Blackbeard accused him of having become soft, it wasn't long after he'd started to turn his life around. He'd been inspired by Emma to change and had all kinds of good intentions, but then the curse reverse threw him back into his old world, so he'd been trying to make his old life work again. He was despairing of ever seeing Emma again, so he didn't have a lot to live for other than his pride and reputation, and if he was stuck in that world, he needed his reputation to survive. In contrast, Whook gave up revenge at least ten years ago (it's hard to tell how old Alice was supposed to be) and has been living as Dad all that time. He hasn't been a pirate in at least a decade, it seems. He gave up his ship. He has a lot to live for and is desperate to free his daughter so they can have a normal life. It doesn't make any sense that he'd be at all motivated by what a stranger thinks about him or what his reputation would be in a world--a universe--where he doesn't live anymore, not if it puts his daughter's freedom at risk.

But I guess if they wrote it this way, then that may be proof that the difference really is a Colin thing and not meant by the writers. He's trying to make the characters different, but the writers think they're exactly the same character.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

I guess I'm dense but I totally missed that.  I assumed Gothel just Cursed Whook and Alice when she appeared in the Tower.  I suppose it makes sense it's the bullet, but why would she need a physical object to give someone a Cursed heart, or whatever it was called?  I guess I must have forgotten the "mythology" of how it worked.

It was almost a throwaway line. After the curse kicked in and Gothel poofed him out of the tower, he glances toward (maybe even touches?) his wounded arm and says something like, "the bullet?" They showed in the episode in which Rapunzel was tempted to poison Cecelia that it's a poison, so I guess the poison has to get into the person some way, whether on a bullet or in a drink. The episode would have made a lot more sense if we'd seen that Gothel was impersonating Ahab or put Ahab up to goading Whook.

2 hours ago, CCTC said:

I think part of the problem, is when a particular story line is not part of the main plot, they don't show it at all.  You go weeks or months without seeing particular relationships and you miss any development or anything that has developed has lost any of its momentum.  Even Ivy and Jacinda have not had any significant time together since early in the season, so it took away from when they were trying to show their family bond and history.   They did the same thing last year - they would introduce a story line or development and then ignore it for months and then expect you to care about something that you did not even completely remember.   Now Ivy is going to try to save or bond with Anastasia, but this is someone we have not seen for awhile  and do really care about and have seen nothing that would make us care for an Ivy-Anastasia relationship/bond.

I'd actually totally forgotten that Ivy and Jacinda were stepsisters, so when Henry was telling Ivy that she did still have a family, all I could think of was Anastasia.

There was a joke in the spoilers thread about how last week, Tiana must have paid someone off to get her centric, and that explains why there was no follow-up to the incredibly emotional events of the previous episode for Ivy. Now this week, Tiana's nowhere to be seen, so we have no follow-up to what happened with her. I guess we're supposed to just assume that Rogers and Tilly have been meeting so regularly for chess all this time that she's come to be that fond of him and worried about him, or is she going off her "meds" and starting to get her real memories back, so some part of her knows he's her father? We probably won't have any follow-up next week to Jacinda and Ivy. They do seem to be making the cop thread flow, so we may get a follow-up about Tilly, but I bet she'll be offscreen and it'll just be Rogers angsting about it.

Not only is it creepy that Ivy made a pass at her stepsister's husband, but she's now buddying up to her stepsister, supposedly fully redeemed, while they're all in this mess and Jacinda is separated from her husband because of the curse Ivy wanted cast. It's basically Regina all over again -- yeah, she's the one who created this situation they're in, but she's a different person now! It does bug me that she's talking like she learned her mother loved her all along, when what we saw was her mother telling her almost to the last second that the only daughter that mattered to her was Anastasia, and the only thing that changed her was learning that Drizella put up the lanterns.

I wonder what the deal was with Gothel's remark about what Rogers would look like if he shaved. Just her being creepy, or were they setting up the possibility that Colin might have to shave for an audition?

The doodle of the ship in the notebook looked kind of like the drawings Colin sometimes adds with his autograph, so I wonder if he actually did any of the art they used in the episode.

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

so I wonder if he actually did any of the art they used in the episode.

Colin used to paint when he was young. So, it’s possible...

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, CCTC said:

I think part of the problem, is when a particular story line is not part of the main plot, they don't show it at all.  You go weeks or months without seeing particular relationships and you miss any development or anything that has developed has lost any of its momentum.  Even Ivy and Jacinda have not had any significant time together since early in the season, so it took away from when they were trying to show their family bond and history.   

Yes.  I was wondering if we were supposed to have seen that rag doll before that Jacinda gave back to Ivy.  How was anyone supposed to remember that?  If we hadn't seen it, then it was practically meaningless. 

I wonder why they are changing the title screen format this season of all seasons, with the object appearing inside the O of Once.  It's not every week though.

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's really frustrating that we still don't know what Gothel is aiming for. Strike frustrated. I'm not even invested. Villains with vaguely menacing motivations aren't interesting. The season is almost over, and we still don't know what the central conflict is.

Definitely.  For example, what was the point of the painting of the ship in this episode, which took a huge amount of screentime.  Rogers didn't awaken.  Tilly didn't awaken.  So what was the point, except it connected the flashback to the present.  If Gothel was supposed to protect the Coven, it didn't make any sense for her to use a favor on that.  If she wanted them to help, why give clues in riddles?  This seems to imply she was responsible for the deaths herself.  But it's probably just a red herring.

The stuff that Gothel was saying about Rogers needing to know himself blah blah blah was irrelevant too.  If he knew himself, he wouldn't trust Gothel except this is Gothel telling him he needs to know himself.  Huh?

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Yup. And it didn't help that Roni was walking in an awkward and shifty manner. It felt very unnatural.

What the hell was up with that?  Was it supposed to be funny? 

If Henry knew Roni wouldn't be up that early, why would he come to the bar at 6am?  Does he have a key or something?  He just worked all night... what's wrong with going home to his apartment?  Did he nap at Roni or he did go over to Ivy right after with no sleep?

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

When Hook Prime refused to help Ariel because Blackbeard accused him of having become soft, it wasn't long after he'd started to turn his life around. He'd been inspired by Emma to change and had all kinds of good intentions, but then the curse reverse threw him back into his old world, so he'd been trying to make his old life work again.

I totally forgot about that plot.  If I had, this episode would have been even worse because of the retread.  As you said, it didn't fit this situation at all.  The only outcome was that the viewer would think Whook was an idiot for doing the duel.  Oh silly me, it's completely different than past duels because it involved guns and not swords.

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It was almost a throwaway line. After the curse kicked in and Gothel poofed him out of the tower, he glances toward (maybe even touches?) his wounded arm and says something like, "the bullet?" They showed in the episode in which Rapunzel was tempted to poison Cecelia that it's a poison, so I guess the poison has to get into the person some way, whether on a bullet or in a drink. The episode would have made a lot more sense if we'd seen that Gothel was impersonating Ahab or put Ahab up to goading Whook.

That makes sense.  I did hear Whook mutter something in the tower but I didn't rewind, so it must have been "the bullet?".

Quote

There was a joke in the spoilers thread about how last week, Tiana must have paid someone off to get her centric, and that explains why there was no follow-up to the incredibly emotional events of the previous episode for Ivy. Now this week, Tiana's nowhere to be seen, so we have no follow-up to what happened with her. I guess we're supposed to just assume that Rogers and Tilly have been meeting so regularly for chess all this time that she's come to be that fond of him and worried about him, or is she going off her "meds" and starting to get her real memories back, so some part of her knows he's her father? We probably won't have any follow-up next week to Jacinda and Ivy. They do seem to be making the cop thread flow, so we may get a follow-up about Tilly, but I bet she'll be offscreen and it'll just be Rogers angsting about it.

A centric on Whook would have been more interesting if it focused on Whook/Alice, but instead, she was pretty much peripheral.  We hardly saw Young Alice in the Tower at all, if you think about it.

Tiana is a series regular now so it's appropriate that she's MIA for 2 out of the 3 episodes so far.

Quote

Not only is it creepy that Ivy made a pass at her stepsister's husband, but she's now buddying up to her stepsister, supposedly fully redeemed, while they're all in this mess and Jacinda is separated from her husband because of the curse Ivy wanted cast. It's basically Regina all over again -- yeah, she's the one who created this situation they're in, but she's a different person now! It does bug me that she's talking like she learned her mother loved her all along, when what we saw was her mother telling her almost to the last second that the only daughter that mattered to her was Anastasia, and the only thing that changed her was learning that Drizella put up the lanterns.

That is very true.  They're once again using a good actress to sell a redemption but it is pretty much insta.  Not from the death of her mother even, it was insta from the conversation with Henry.

So three episodes pretty much happened in the space of a week and a little bit.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

As yes, the Mills family is totally known for saving people. I mean, except for Graham...and Marion...and that groom Regina killed just because...and Snows old nanny Cora through out the window...and Percival's village...and Percival...and that village Regina slaughtered when they helped Snow...and all those kids Regina sent to be eaten by the Blind Witch...and... You see what happens when you just randomly decide you Big Bad is the new hero without ever really dealing with that? Especially when your a show that loves making broad statements about heroes and villains and good and evil and crap like that? It just makes everything seem super hallow to any of us that have been paying attention to this freaking show. 

Anyway, much like last week, this wasn't an awful episode, I would say it better than last week just by being at least somewhat about one of the more interesting stories (Hook and Alice), but it was pretty boring, repetitive, and raised a lot more questions that I know will never be answered. Like, why was being taunted by this one random guy so awful that it made WHook go back to dueling and such? Its basically just a Hook Prime plot, but we`ve already seen it before, and WHook seemed to have gotten over all that revenge/pirate reputation stuff ages ago, who why both doing that, instead of building on his relationship with his daughter? Also, does all this take place in the same AU that Murderella and Tremaine and everyone is from? So they have an AU Smee as well that is exactly like the one in the EF, who also knows Hook? And that Hook is gone? Or is this the Prime universe at a different time period? Which time period? Is this an alternate Rumple, or one from the past in the Enchanted Forest? If so, where is Hook prime at this point? Is that why Bobby was even hammier than usual as Imp Rumple, because this is a different guy? Who just happens to be exactly like Prime Rumple? But, this should be the future right, if Hook is older (and by older, we mean two grey hairs), so why is Rumple still in jail? Isnt he living with Belle in the first 10 minutes of Up? Or, if is this is the AU that Murderella and Co are from? Or, wait, is this the Wish Verse? Then, could they maybe freaking establish that fact? 

Also, why did the captain who was a dick to WHook have to be Captain Ahab? Beyond one reference to him having a thing about fish and a peg leg, what was the point? Stop namedropping show and just write some actual characters! Also, was that supposed to be th thing from Moana that the guy had? In which case...I have a rant I plan on saving for another thread. 

Its hard to get invested in all these stories when they're so spread out. We haven't gotten anything from Tilly and WHook in ages, either as Rogers and Tilly or as WHook and Alice, and thats kind of killing the momentum of the story, in just the way Faciliars plot will probably be killed because we have like 30 other damn plots to get through and Tiana wont have another episode for awhile. Unless they give the episode to Regina and talk about their relationship, which...not that interested in more Regina sex. At least this time, it was presumably consensual at least.

Seeing Rogers interact with Gothel really is super creepy, and the actress is still doing a decent job at being scary and threatening, even thought thats quickly dying down as we still have no idea what her plan is, or what this coven actually is. Or how the flying fuck magic even works in this universe but thats a whole different rant. I would have liked more of WHook and Alice and their life together instead of pointless OOC dick measuring and Gothel cackling. Poor little Alice cant ever go outside and the only people she knows are her father, who tries his best with her but is still only one person, and her evil mom who raped her dad to get a kid who she could dump in this tower forever and apparently pops up to be evil from time to time. Thats a lot of angst for a kid, I would like to explore that more, please?

[Writing Wrongs]

16 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And it's interesting how non-curious Lucy seems to be.

I know. Compared to Henry in Season 1, she's barely trying.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Or, wait, is this the Wish Verse? Then, could they maybe freaking establish that fact? 

I assumed it was the Wish Verse since the prison setup with Wish Rumple was the same.  Plus Smee welcomed Whook back and he had been tending the Jolly Roger as previously arranged.  With a different Cinderella, Tremaine, Rapunzel, etc. in the Disenchanted Forest, one would probably assume Captain Hook and Rumple would also be completely different.  By not establishing the fact, I'm not sure what a casual viewer thinks or if they even bother thinking about it.  They probably wouldn't know the difference between Disenchanted Forest vs. Wish Realm.

Speaking of which, assuming the duel was fought in the Wish Realm, this means that Mother Gothel somehow went there and poisoned the bullet.  

16 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

She finds out that Roni is really Regina and it's all true -- and wait, had she ever even figured out that Roni was Regina before? I thought she hadn't made that connection. We've even talked about how odd it is that she hasn't figured out the original characters who actually would have been in the book she had -- and she doesn't even ask about Storybrooke, doesn't suggest going to them for help, doesn't ask about her other grandmother.

She figured it out in the episode following the one where Roni found the photo of Regina and Jared Henry.

[Rumsy4]

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

... why was being taunted by this one random guy so awful that it made WHook go back to dueling and such? Its basically just a Hook Prime plot, but we`ve already seen it before, and WHook seemed to have gotten over all that revenge/pirate reputation stuff ages ago, who why both doing that, instead of building on his relationship with his daughter? 

I don’t buy that WHook would suddenly drop everything and duel some random loser pirate in order to save his professional reputation in a Realm he no longer lives in, and for a profession he gave up 10+ years ago for the sake of his daughter. 

The writers want Hook/WHook to be very jealous of his reputation as a fierce pirate even when it doesn't make sense (like in this instance), except when he hides the fact that he is a fierce pirate by killing the one innocent witness to his crime (who happened to be David's father), this time in order to protect his reputation as a...soft-hearted pirate?? Nobody can make sense of this kind of plot-driven contradictory writing. 

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers want Hook/WHook to be very jealous of his reputation as a fierce pirate even when it doesn't make sense (like in this instance), except when he hides the fact that he is a fierce pirate by killing the one innocent witness to his crime (who happened to be David's father), this time in order to protect his reputation as a...soft-hearted pirate?? Nobody can make sense of this kind of plot-driven contradictory writing. 

Plus Colin's facial expressions didn't match that motivation for Whook in this episode.  He didn't look like he cared much about his pride, nor did he seem to care about what Captain Whatever thought of him.  Yet the script had him fighting that duel.  The script was laying it on thick, with Young Alice saying, "You didn't come right back?" 

[tennisgurl]

You know, sometimes I wish that, instead of coming up with all these different universes all over the multiverse (that all seem to be weirdly similar to each other), they just should have done a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen thing, where all fiction just exists next to each other, even if they dont always make total sense. Like, while all this is going on, sometimes they hear that the weather has turned to crap in both the neighboring kingdoms of Westeros (who are also in the middle of a nasty civil war) and Narnia, so they cant really ask them for help with the Regina mess, and at some point they end up in the future where they find a city called New York where aliens are invading and being beaten back by superheroes, only a few days after the Ghostbusters are got the statue of Liberty to walk around the city, which both made for great stories to be told by this guy they meet named Ted Mosby who loves telling really long pointless stories, while watching a news story about how in another city called Chicago, several major car pileups have stopped traffic as local police chase down two blues musicians, and a parade was stopped allowing a kid to sing twist and shout with the entire city which distracted everyone from a guy in a trench coat riding Sue the Dinosaur down the Magnificent Mile. 

It would be totally insane, but it wouldn't be boring or make no sense. 

[Rumsy4]

So, theories as to who's killing off the Coven? Facilier? Tilly? Gothel (for some reason)? Ivy? Weaver?

[Mrs. DuRona]

I was kind of hoping that when Ivy kissed Henry, that would break the spell... 

[KingOfHearts]

I just saw the episode today. I burst out laughed twice this episode. The first time was when I saw Smee's reaction to WHook wagering the Jolly Roger. The quick head turn was hilarious. Second time was when Gothel waved at the camera. Yeah, it was supposed to be creepy, but the way she did it was so cheeky.

I don't believe for a second that WHook would have put his life at risk over a stupid duel. Vindictive-stricken Hook, probably. But this WHook was supposed to be wised up by having a daughter and spending years away from the Pilot episode. That's been a common theme between him, Regina, Zelena, and Rumple - they've all matured and are now guiding others to their happy endings.

Other than that, it's mostly nitpicks. Not much really happened this episode, when you think about it. I kept thinking about all the things that could have - Drizella dying, WHook being woken up, Maui's fish hook obliterating the tower, etc. It seemed like this episode was building up to something. The cliffhanger is Roni and Lucy working together? Blargh. Next week's gonna be gross.

Lucy's dialogue doesn't sound like a child's at all. What kid says "I've just been overwhelmed after going to the hospital and my grandma's death"? 

Zelena, Tiana, and Facilier just had their turn at disappearing into Offscreenville. No mention of them at all.

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I'd actually totally forgotten that Ivy and Jacinda were stepsisters, so when Henry was telling Ivy that she did still have a family, all I could think of was Anastasia.

When Henry and Ivy were sitting by the window, I thought for sure someone was going to snipe her with a bullet, al a BTVS.

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Lucy's dialogue doesn't sound like a child's at all. What kid says "I've just been overwhelmed after going to the hospital and my grandma's death"? 

She's very mature.  She can also go out at night by herself to a bar, and that scene had to be set at night because.

[daxx]

55 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Lucy's dialogue doesn't sound like a child's at all. What kid says "I've just been overwhelmed after going to the hospital and my grandma's death"? 

This line took me completely out of the story.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Not much really happened this episode, when you think about it.

It's the final final season and how do you kill an hour?  

The big cliffhanger involved The Coat Hangers and we've been back for 3 weeks and still haven't seen them.

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

It's the final final season and how do you kill an hour?  

The big cliffhanger involved The Coat Hangers and we've been back for 3 weeks and still haven't seen them.

So far the Coat Hangers have been a soda-drinking doctor, a blind baker, and a head in a fishbowl.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

So far the Coat Hangers have been a soda-drinking doctor, a blind baker, and a head in a fishbowl.

I meant the actual coat hangers.  They're one of my favorite new characters.

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

I meant the actual coat hangers.  They're one of my favorite new characters.

Beatrice (Drizella's ragdoll) is mine. She's much more lifelike than Jacinda and Henry.

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

Beatrice (Drizella's ragdoll) is mine. 

I'm working on a fan page for her right now.  

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

I'm working on a fan page for her right now.  

#Brook for life. (Beatrice + Rook)

[Camera One]

Can someone please give me an in-depth explanation of this week's episode title?  I know it has deep and significant meaning and I'm dying to find out what they are.  Thanks.

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Can someone please give me an in-depth explanation of this week's episode title?  I know it has deep and significant meaning and I'm dying to find out what they are.  Thanks.

Whook is the knight, because he gave the "knight" chess piece to Alice. Fall can be literally interpreted as the moment he fell from the Tower in Alice's nightmare. Or figuratively when he "fell" from grace in Alice's eyes when she found out he didn't come straight home to her. It's also a clever play on words to signify "night" falling on father and daughter. Hope this helps. 

[KingOfHearts]

22 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Whook is the knight, because he gave the "knight" chess piece to Alice. Fall can be literally interpreted as the moment he fell from the Tower in Alice's nightmare. Or figuratively when he "fell" from grace in Alice's eyes when she found out he didn't come straight home to her. It's also a clever play on words to signify "night" falling on father and daughter. Hope this helps. 

Jane actually gave me an explanation on Twitter one time of the episode title for "Fall", 4x09. It was as profound as you would expect.

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Jane actually gave me an explanation on Twitter one time of the episode title for "Fall", 4x09. It was as profound as you would expect.

What did she say? Was it as awesome as the "heart of a titan" explanation? 

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

What did she say? Was it as awesome as the "heart of a titan" explanation? 

"Because it preceded the virtual "winter" of the snowfall-like spell and cuz said spell fell from the sky."

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

"Because it preceded the virtual "winter" of the snowfall-like spell and cuz said spell fell from the sky."

O__o

[legaleagle53]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

You can tell Henry is such a great author by the way he talks.  "I tried all sorts of stupid things to make me feel better."  Isn't that grammatically incorrect, or does it just sound awkward?

It's grammatically correct. It's just an informal way of speaking.  Writers don't always speak the way they write or write the way they normally speak.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

O__o

That's an exact quote too.

It was nice of this episode to remind us that Henry is a Swift driver. I honestly thought he quit.

I'd say it's creepy for Regina to be talking to her son about sleeping with an old flame, but then I remembered that it never stopped her before. It gave me flashbacks of when Snow saw her shirt unbuttoned. Good times, good times.

Edited March 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

That's an exact quote too.

Maybe that's the type of conversations they have in the Writers Room and then they realize they have an entire storyline to come up with and only 5 minutes to come up with the plot.

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

That's an exact quote too.

It sounds a little like gibberish. Maybe the writers fall asleep a la Henry and come up with these gems in their sleep.

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It was nice of this episode to remind us that Henry is a Swift driver. I honestly thought he quit.

I didn't get Henry's joke about it being anything but "swift". What does speed have to do anything with being a night shift cab driver?

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I didn't get Henry's joke about it being anything but "swift". What does speed have to do anything with being a night shift cab driver?

It was lame-o Henry trying to be funny.  But it does highlight how unnatural that whole conversation was.  I really don't buy the mother-son relationship when they have conversations.  It was nothing like when Emma and Mary Margaret were talking (of course, the difference was neither of them were aware of their relationship, and the vast age difference between Regina and Henry).

Another lame joke was Roni saying the bar doesn't do strawberry milk shots.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Another lame joke was Roni saying the bar doesn't do strawberry milk shots.

The best joke was unintentional, and it was Regina saying the Mills family saves people. 

[Camera One]

Was Zelena off-screen trying to do some reconnaissance to find out how to defeat Gothel?   I know Regina needs money to survive in Seattle, but the "dream team" (Regina, Rumple and Zelena) doesn't seem to be too concerned about finding a way to get out of this situation they're in.  I mean, Henry could literally die at any moment if he kisses Jacinda, but did Regina forget about that risk?  The Writers can't have it both ways.  They imply that their situation is so dangerous and dire, yet the characters are sitting around living their meaningless Seattle lives (what exactly is Rumple's bigger plan, because I seriously can't tell).

Edited March 18, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

52 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It was lame-o Henry trying to be funny.  But it does highlight how unnatural that whole conversation was.  I really don't buy the mother-son relationship when they have conversations.  It was nothing like when Emma and Mary Margaret were talking (of course, the difference was neither of them were aware of their relationship, and the vast age difference between Regina and Henry).

Also - Emma and Mary Margaret were two straight women, which barred any inappropriate incest-y chemistry. I get that Regina is now with Facilier and Henry wants Jacinda, but those relationships don't feel the strongest. I'm not saying there's any possibility that Regina and Henry could get together, just that it's more impossible to insinuate than Emma/MM. It's a lot on the actors, too. Emma and Mary Margaret were gal pal roommates who talked about boy problems. Roni and Henry were two strangers in a bar with no real reasons to be buddy-buddy.

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Was Zelena off-screen trying to do some reconnaissance to find out how to defeat Gothel?  

She was in the back making her signature green jello shots.

Quote

I think one of the problems with Roni is that she has no internal conflicts left.  They gave her a happy ending in Storybrooke and she spent 10 years fighting for some nebulous resistance and poof she's the heroine.  And that's it.   She's not at all interesting as a character.  Duller than dirt compared to any version of Regina or EQ that came before, even the ones I used to complain about.

Her internal conflict is meant to be about her relationship with Mr. Shadi, but she doesn't seem all that indecisive about it. She's just banging him and we don't know why they're even a thing. It's just l makes you go, "K." Who the frick cares if they're together? There doesn't seem to be any positive or negative consequences. It's just weird.

Zelena's personal issues with her daughter and her fiance are a million times more interesting.

Edited March 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Quote

Once Upon a Time  10 hrs · 

A deadly mystery and a classic deal. This is a #OnceUponATimeepisode we could watch over and over!

Whoever is writing the Facebook posts for the official "Once Upon a Time" page really needs to stop being so over-the-top.  This comment was about "Knightfall".

Edited March 18, 2018 by Camera One