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S09.E14: The Beefcake & The Cake Beef

Tara Ariano

By Tara Ariano
in Will & Grace [V]

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

The Karen and Grace story didn't work for me.  Other than Grace saying "she's on her own" and Jack saying "she acts like we haven't seen her covered in cake before" there weren't enough laughs or heart for me.

I don't know that I found the Will & Jack stuff much funnier but the emotional and friendship beats really worked for me, especially Jack dressing Will down for believing Jack's in love with him.  And even though I saw the "push us off the bridge" line coming (although I thought it'd be jump off), it still worked.

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Annber03

Annber03

12 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Jack saying "she acts like we haven't seen her covered in cake before" 

I liked that, too :D. And the looks on their faces when Grace just walked right into the apartment and headed towards her room. 

Quote

I don't know that I found the Will & Jack stuff much funnier but the emotional and friendship beats really worked for me, especially Jack dressing Will down for believing Jack's in love with him.  And even though I saw the "push us off the bridge" line coming (although I thought it'd be jump off), it still worked.

I thought they'd say "jump off", too :p. But yeah, that was my favorite of the two storylines as well. The end conversation between them was really sweet. And I liked seeing Jack so genuinely concerned about how Michael was treating Will.

I also loved Jack's whole "We're not talking about me!" thing when he was trying to show how Michael used Will. 

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festivus

festivus

(edited)

Thank goodness any Jack and Will are in love was shut down. Friendships are just as important as romantic love and I liked the Will and Jack moments in this one. Too bad Michael turned out to not be a great person, he is pretty. /Shallow. Loved Karen and the dude making fun of the dress. We're all doing that.

Edited by festivus
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TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

(edited)

Hated the Michael retcon. Having him as a great One That Got Away was a nicely human, poignant touch the first time around. Turning him into a manipulative loser is such a cheap copout. Bleh. (Plus Original Michael was hotter. Not surprising he didn't come back considering Chris Potter's discomfort when he was on Queer as Folk though.)

The cake plot was just uncomfortable, not funny.

Edited by TheOtherOne
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Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

I'd take Cheyenne Jackson over 1990s Chris Potter, never mind today's spackled-with-foundation version, and that's before factoring in all his ungrateful insults to the gay community. I was dreading the thought of Potter making a guest appearance as part of the reboot's nostalgia fest, and was so relieved to see they'd recast the role. Even if Cheyenne would have been 15 when Will and Michael started dating.

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TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

(edited)

True, Potter looks like a wax figure now. If you're a lazy writer looking to trash the character (who could previously afford to hire Grace to decorate his apartment and who she didn't seem to have any issues with before), creepy, crazy-eyed Cheyenne is certainly more convincing as a shallow gym queen.

Edited by TheOtherOne
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luna1122

luna1122

Cheyenne Jackson is uncommonly pretty, and he and Will looked so pretty together, tho yeah...he's about 15 years too young to play Micheal. I was disappointed, I wanted Will to find love n happiness with him. I didn't even remember who played OriginalMicheal, so I was happy to see Cheyenne, and sorry he's already gone.

So glad they're not going to go the Jack and Will as endgame way, that's just...wrong.

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Blakeston

Blakeston

As soon as it became clear the Grace/Karen storyline was about a baker not wanting to make a cake, I knew it would be cringeworthy.

If the writers had actually put any thought into it, I'd think they were endorsing the idea that we shouldn't discriminate against people for being bigots, or else we're hypocrites if we complain about discrimination based on sexual orientation/race/gender/etc. Sorry, but...no.

That said, I liked the "this is not a cake for the vice president" line.

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ahpny

ahpny

(edited)

The cake plot - which of course is based on a real Supreme Court case, see https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2017/16-111_f314.pdf, didn't work because the real issues are too complicated to shove into the B-plot of a 23 minute sitcom episode. Moreover, the writers muddled them with an erroneous presumption that a baker would or should be compelled to bake a cake with a swastika.  No one in the real cake case takes that position, see above transcript at 27:9-12, for the same reason that no one insists that Random House has a duty to publish Mein Kampf. This is not the same as a debate about permitting Nazis to march in a parade, but more like one about compelling someone to march in that parade.

Maybe if it were funnier, we'd have forgiven these transgressions, but sadly that wasn't so. 

However, the A-plot, Will's rekindled relationship and Jack's reaction to it, was far more successful. Indeed, it went places Will and Grace often don't reach, while still being pretty funny, if still somewhat predictable - indeed, even predicted by Jack himself.  

Edited by ahpny
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Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

(edited)

I do think a Trump-supporting cake falls under the same umbrella as the Masterpiece Cake Co. incident—the baker not personally agreeing with a client's views shouldn't be an excuse to deny them a publicly offered service or product. Actual hate speech, as the Nazi swastika has become a symbol of, should be another matter entirely.

 

It's hilarious that they cast Vanessa Bayer as the baker for this storyline, given her character in the "God Is a Boob Man" sketch.

Edited by Bruinsfan
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Blakeston

Blakeston

26 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I do think a Trump-supporting cake falls under the same umbrella as the Masterpiece Cake Co. incident—the baker not personally agreeing with a client's views shouldn't be an excuse to deny them a publicly offered service or product. Actual hate speech, as the Nazi swastika has become a symbol of, should be another matter entirely.

Making cakes for straight weddings and not for gay ones is blatant discrimination based on sexual orientation. That's very different from not wanting to make a cake for a politician you dislike.

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bichonblitz

bichonblitz

Good Lord, Grace is annoying. Poor Debra Messing. 

Loved the Jack and Will scenes. Jack usually gets on my nerves but I enjoyed him last night.

p.s. I still think he's in love with Will and that will play out later on down the road. Not looking forward to it, either. 

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festivus

festivus

28 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

p.s. I still think he's in love with Will and that will play out later on down the road. Not looking forward to it, either. 

Please no. I actually said out loud NoNoNoNo when Michael said that to Will. I'm choosing to believe that after last night's episode that they are not going to go there.

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iMonrey

iMonrey

Well, I for one did not know in advance Cheyenne Jackson was going to be playing Michael. I remember the original Michael from that one episode he appeared in and was waiting to see if they could get the same actor. No! Definitely not. 

So, the show was definitely banking on us not remembering much about that episode, if anything - which seems odd. Not only is it a completely different-looking actor, but there was never any mention before of Michael being a "taker" or a "user." While the character himself may have only appeared in one episode they certainly referred to him more than once, and I seem to recall the main reason he broke up with Will was the same reason Leo broke up with Grace. They couldn't be in a relationship without having Grace or Will be part of it.

Quote

Chris Potter, never mind today's spackled-with-foundation version, and that's before factoring in all his ungrateful insults to the gay community. 

Can you elaborate on what Potter said? You can PM me if you want. 

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Delphi

Delphi

34 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

Can you elaborate on what Potter said? You can PM me if you want. 

Basically ragged on the gay scenes he had to shoot, like kissing; "Soon as they say ‘cut,’ you spit,” he sneered. “You want to go to a strip bar or touch the makeup girls. You feel dirty. It’s a tough job.”  

I believe he also stated that he wanted to scrub himself with blech after the performing love scenes. 

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MaryMitch

MaryMitch

In Colorado, where the "cake case" occurred, sexual orientation is a legally protected class. (Sadly, that's not the case everywhere.)  So the case weighs religious freedom (claimed by the baker) vs discrimination against a protected class. 

I like that Grace stood up for Karen's stupid cake, even though she (Grace) despised MAGA. I don't think I would have done that!

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Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

1 hour ago, emma675 said:

Wow, Potter sounds like such an asshole. Here's hoping he never works again.

Even better, he's stuck playing a deadbeat dad on Canada's unkillable Seventh Heaven equivalent family-friendly drama Heartland after getting sacked from the Hallmark Channel's The Good Witch franchise. And it looks like his scrubbing himself with bleach wish has been granted!

I may have put some extra oomph into my curse on him back in 2001...

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juliet73

juliet73

I liked the Will and Jack scenes at the end. 

The Grace and Karen storyline was bad. Just bad! And what in the world was Grace wearing? It looked like a muumuu, but much much worse!

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A.J.

A.J.

Great, great turnaround from the last episode!  I liked this entire episode.  I was happy to see Grace's assistant again.  I loved all of Karen's jokes and uppity humor in the cake shop.  That worker in the cake shop was fantastic in her role.  Will & Jack's scenes were great.  

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SparklesBitch

SparklesBitch

(edited)
10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I was wondering about that.  Glad to see it.

Good for them! Yay, show! 

9 hours ago, Blakeston said:

That said, I liked the "this is not a cake for the vice president" line.

Me too! That was the only thing I liked about the Karen and Grace subplot in this episode. Well, that and Vanessa Bayer. She was perfectly cast for that role! 

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Making cakes for straight weddings and not for gay ones is blatant discrimination based on sexual orientation. That's very different from not wanting to make a cake for a politician you dislike.

My thoughts exactly! 

6 hours ago, festivus said:

Please no. I actually said out loud NoNoNoNo when Michael said that to Will. I'm choosing to believe that after last night's episode that they are not going to go there.

I did too! I’m so glad they didn’t go there. I loved the Will and Jack plot in this episode in general, though. Long lasting friendships are every bit as important as romantic relationships and I really liked seeing that acknowledged. Jack knew exactly what Michael was up to, and when he was right, I loved him quietly comforting Will without gloating, and just simply placing a sympathetic hand on his leg. 

Also, their little chat on the couch about Will thinking for a just a moment that Jack’s was a face he could love when Jack was all vulnerable over coming out to his mom was the sweetest. My favorite part was the whole (I’m paraphrasing) “this is a person who could either be a boyfriend for a while or a life long friend but not both”. Will and Jack pick at each other a lot, but it’s nice to be reminded how much they actually care about each other. It all gave me warm fuzzies. 

Edited by SparklesBitch
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txhorns79

txhorns79

Quote

So the case weighs religious freedom (claimed by the baker) vs discrimination against a protected class. 

I think the case actually weighs free speech or the free exercise clause against Colorado's public accommodations law.  The Supreme Court decided about thirty years ago that a facially neutral statute could stand even if it imposed on a group's religious practices, so I don't think the baker is arguing that his religious freedom trumps the law.  He's arguing about compelled speech, and seeking to carve out an exception to the law.  

I didn't particularly like the plotline because it seemed as though the writers fundamentally misunderstood the wedding cake case, and seem not to understand that there's a difference between a baker refusing to serve a protected class and a baker declining to decorate a cake with a certain phrase or political slogan.  

I also don't really get the deal with Grace's assistant.  He vanished for multiple episodes without a mention only to suddenly show up again like he was never gone.   

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sinkwriter

sinkwriter

I don't mind that they got another actor to play Michael (especially after hearing about the original actor's apparent anti-gay comments as noted above... wow... disgusting of him), but I do mind a lot that they essentially retconned who Michael was in Will's life.

In the original series, he was THE guy that Will loved above all other boyfriends. There was an episode where Grace knew the anniversary of their breakup was coming up, so she took Will away to try to take his mind off of it, and it's just the most wonderful episode, funny and sweet, and shows their friendship really wonderfully, as well as demonstrates that Will had recently had a very serious, long relationship with Michael. I want to say it was at least seven years. So there was important (and moving) weight to that relationship.

And in the episode where the character actually appears in person, we see that Grace gets along really well with him, so to have this new storyline where both she and Jack act like they never liked or trusted him...?? Makes absolutely no sense, if you ever saw the original series. And even if you didn't, rewriting the character as a user in this way essentially ruins the weight and length and importance of their relationship and how much they supposedly meant to one another. I just don't think it was cool of the showrunners to rewrite Michael in this way. 

Like Tara and Kevin said, if you're going to have Cheyenne Jackson come on the show, why not have him play someone else? Someone who fits this "user" backstory relationship that Will supposedly had at one point? Why have him be THE Michael and change his history in this way? It just feels like it discredits the quality of the story we'd originally been given about the guy, and as an original Will & Grace viewer, I'm very disappointed in that decision.

That said, I did very much love the scenes between Jack and Will. Best parts of the episode, for sure.

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legaleagle53

legaleagle53

(edited)
On 3/16/2018 at 10:39 AM, bichonblitz said:

Good Lord, Grace is annoying. Poor Debra Messing. 

Loved the Jack and Will scenes. Jack usually gets on my nerves but I enjoyed him last night.

p.s. I still think he's in love with Will and that will play out later on down the road. Not looking forward to it, either. 

 

On 3/16/2018 at 11:10 AM, festivus said:

Please no. I actually said out loud NoNoNoNo when Michael said that to Will. I'm choosing to believe that after last night's episode that they are not going to go there.

Except that Jack really was in love with Will when they first met, as shown in the episode "Lows in the 80s."  It's just that Will was still in the process of coming out to himself and wasn't quite ready to go there with anyone else yet, so he laughed off Jack's attempt to come on to him.  You saw Jack turn away for a few seconds with an extremely hurt and crushed look on his face before he turned back around and pretended to agree with Will that the whole idea was preposterous in order to hide how truly devastated he was. So I wouldn't be surprised to see them actually go there -- it really does happen all the time in real life.  Ever wonder why some men and women refer to their spouses as "my best friend ever"?  It's because, as Ann Landers once astutely observed, "Love is friendship that has caught fire."

That said, I don't think it will happen this season.  The show has just been renewed for an ELEVENTH season, so there's plenty of time to build up to that endgame.

Edited by legaleagle53
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iMonrey

iMonrey

(edited)

Yeah, I just don't see them ever going there with Jack and Will. Over the eight years this show originally ran they established such a strong brother type of relationship between the two it would almost seem incestuous. And the reboot just reinforces the type of relationship they have.

In a way the reboot really screwed up happy endings for both Will and Grace because the whole point of the original finale was that neither Will nor Grace was ever going to have a successful relationship with a partner as long as they remained so co-dependent on one another. Will wound up with Vince and Grace with Leo once they broke up. That was their happy ending and now it's gone.  I don't see how they get a different happy ending without reaching the same conclusion.

Edited by iMonrey
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Cekrypton1

Cekrypton1

I think perhaps some of the issues with Karen is that 20 years ago, her "non-PC" (I know, I know Ugh!) humor was transgressive and gave a frisson of naughty. But now that the president and his cadre are actual, living Karens, it makes her whole schtick far less funny. Her ideas were played as out there and extreme and yet today they are all-together too mainstream.

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BabyVegas

BabyVegas

On the one hand, I don't mind that W&G gets political. Even if the jokes hadn't been somewhat political, the show itself was always going to be inherently political because it was one of the earlier shows regularly featuring multiple gay characters. On the other hand, from a writing perspective, if the writers can't distill a very complex issue down to make it funny and fit it in a 23ish-minute episode of a sitcom, maybe it's better that they don't touch it. As others here have pointed out, the Masterpiece Cake Shop case has some nuance and I worry that this show being flip about things like that doesn't have the effect that the writers intended. 

1 hour ago, Cekrypton1 said:

I think perhaps some of the issues with Karen is that 20 years ago, her "non-PC" (I know, I know Ugh!) humor was transgressive and gave a frisson of naughty.

This episode brings up, and this comment very much encapsulates, one of the things that this reboot has brought up for me. Sometimes this show seems to suffer from time marching on and that is never more apparent when Karen is at full throttle. For all Will's big talk a few episodes back to his young date about the battles that older LGBT+ folks fought, it REALLY sticks out that Jack and Will hang out with someone who is, at best, willing to look the other way while supporting a party that actively hurts her friends. It could have been a really good opportunity to delve into gay culture beyond what is represented by two attractive, wealthy (or mooching off of wealthy) white gay men, but instead it just came off as glib and shallow.

I've actually liked more of the reboot than I've disliked, but this episode was so far off the mark for me, that it just left a sour taste in my mouth.

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greekmom

greekmom

I actually enjoyed the Karen/Grace/cake shop storyline.  I thought it was funny. What makes it ironic is that if Karen was smart enough to joke that she's having some anti Trump party and the cake is part of a joke, the baker would have totally made the cake.  Which goes to show depending on intent, the baker would have probably made the cake.

The nazi cake at the end was a bit over the top. But I thought it was funny that Grace found him cute then felt deflated.  If he was another pro Trump supporter with a more pro Trump cake than just maga - I think the joke would have come across better.

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Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

(edited)

True, I can't imagine finding out someone is a Nazi wouldn't immediately overcome their attractiveness with visceral revulsion for any decent person. If he'd been having a border wall cake made at least you could see Grace thinking "if only. . ."

Edited by Bruinsfan
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Miles

Miles

"How dare you come out on my cake!"

That line slayed me. Don't know if it was the delivery or because it was so unexpected, but man, I literally laughed about it for hours (with pauses of course.)

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Miles

Miles

On 16.3.2018 at 7:56 PM, Delphi said:

Basically ragged on the gay scenes he had to shoot, like kissing; "Soon as they say ‘cut,’ you spit,” he sneered. “You want to go to a strip bar or touch the makeup girls. You feel dirty. It’s a tough job.”  

I believe he also stated that he wanted to scrub himself with blech after the performing love scenes. 

Almost seems like he protests too much.

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

In a way the reboot really screwed up happy endings for both Will and Grace because the whole point of the original finale was that neither Will nor Grace was ever going to have a successful relationship with a partner as long as they remained so co-dependent on one another. Will wound up with Vince and Grace with Leo once they broke up. That was their happy ending and now it's gone.  I don't see how they get a different happy ending without reaching the same conclusion.

Well that ending was dumb and I'm glad they retconed it.

 

17 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

For all Will's big talk a few episodes back to his young date about the battles that older LGBT+ folks fought, it REALLY sticks out that Jack and Will hang out with someone who is, at best, willing to look the other way while supporting a party that actively hurts her friends.

I mean Trump is hurting a lot of people, but he seems to be okay when it comes to gay rights, doesn't he? You really don't want him to die or get impeached when you are for gay rights though. If the stink bug becomes president it isn't going to be fun for anybody.

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Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

The current administration has been mostly focused on chipping away at trans rights. The trans community is more vulnerable/less accepted by the mainstream as yet, and I believe their issues trip Trump's insecurities about masculinity and gender roles in a way that people's private conduct in the bedroom doesn't.

I have to admit though, despite strongly disagreeing with Gorsuch's views on LGBT issues he's one of the rare people Trump has put up for a position who actually has the qualifications for it. Moreso than Clarence Thomas IMHO. I was surprised Trump didn't nominate Judge Joe Brown or someone from The Voice.

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