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S04.E14: A Dark Knight: Reunion

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Ivy picks her next target, leading Gordon and Lucius back to an old friend, as Selina tries to take matters into her own hands. Sofia wants full control of Gotham and turns to Lee about the state of the Narrows. Meanwhile, Bruce tries to make amends with Alfred, and Nygma visits Arkham.

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Eehhhh...not my favorite episode this season

The ivy stuff was kind of blah

Glad bruce and alfred have made up

Harvey seems to be slowly gravitating back toward the gcpd and his bestie

There's a reason why Sofia's the queen! Dang. Watching Lee get her hand smashed to bits was brutal. Another case of Sofia being 20 steps ahead of everybody. I friggin love her. Sadly, her reign might not last much longer.

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Awwwww everyone makes up! Alfred is back at Wayne Manner, Harvey and Jim are working together again and are drifting back towards their BFF status, and even Penguin and Ed are partners in crime again. Well, kinda. When you get alternate personalities involved, it always gets complicated. But, I am just so happy that Alfred is back with Bruce, and Harvey and Jim are hashing their shit out! Now, I need hugs guys! Gruff, awkward, heartfelt hugs. 

The anchor woman on TV looked like she had a whole animal on her head. Being a costume designer on this show must be a dream job. 

I did like Ivy a bit more this week, now that she has gone full on plant based serial killer. And Selena got a nice hero moment when she stopped her from killing more people. I also liked her conversation with Bruce. Oh those two. 

I love how Lucius always gets super interested when he finds something weird he can autopsy. Not in a creepy way, but just in a "ooooooh fascinating" way. When you live in Gotham, I guess you just get used to it. 

Sofia is freaking brutal. I wouldn't count Lee out though, she can be pretty ruthless when backed into a corner. Sofia is an awesome villain, but it seems like her reign will be coming to an end soon. She has pissed off a LOT of people lately. I do appreciate how she can pick out a fabulous outfit to wear for when she breaks her sister in laws hand. Sofia aint afraid to get her hands dirty. Literally. But only one hand. Because family is important.

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I think I watched this episode...I mean, I'm not sure, because as the episode progressed, I was far more interested in the HeroMachine character I was creating than the actual show.

Man, I'm tired of filler.

Granted, this wasn't all a bore- there were some nice moments, like Bruce and Alfred bonding again, Selina taking a stand against her friend, Ed throughout the episode (but especially in that final scene with Oswald).

Oh, and Sofia literally hammering Lee's hand was all kinds of squeamish- talk about laying down the hammer.

It takes A LOT to get me to squirm and Morena Baccharin did a wonderful job.

Still, this episode was further proof that Peyton List just isn't that good. Not "isn't that good as Ivy"- no, she's just not good. Period. List would be bad enough if she was just one in a gallery of rogues, but her shortcomings are even more pronounced now that she's been asked to portray the "showcase" villain for this half season.

Boy, did the show ever whiff, and boy is it ever bringing this show down.

We had such a great start to S4- c'mon, don't derail now guys.

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So Harvey Bullock had a lot of screentime. Donal Logue did a fairly good job (sometimes he did look bored though). It was nice that he re-bonded with Jim and it seems like their relationship is repairing itself.

Oh, and there was "I'm going to find Ivy- alone...after I find my pants!"

Ah, classic Harvey.

Still, he did little more than mope and while I get that it'll be a while before he'll feel like being a cop again, it felt like a waste of screentime, especially because Bullock really is a doer.

Here's hoping that now that he's back with Jim he'll get more useful screentime.

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Nice that Alfred and Bruce are back together, and I'm glad Alfred made Bruce work for it a little bit. Next on the list for Bruce should be Selina, and it looks like we'll get that next week. And all this is reminding me that I like Selina much, much more when she's away from the Sirens. I wish she'd go ahead and break off already.

Sofia is hardcore. Lee really should have known a bit better. But what was up with her in the hospital at the end? Her hand got smashed, does that really necessitate a nasal cannula? I know Sofia said "throw her in the street" but...did she get beat up further or what? Feels a bit dramatic. Like Lee's opera gloves. 

Nice to see Jim finally cop to how badly he has fucked up. But still...dude. This is all your fault (I feel like he let Harvey take too much of the blame. Harvey unraveled during the Pyg era and that was Jim's fault). Last episode Jim told Sofia that their deal was she runs the criminal underworld and he runs the GCPD. Hey, Jim - you know who would have agreed to that deal without bringing in Pyg to kill a bunch of cops if you had just asked him real nice? Oswald. More proof that this was all largely about Jim's ego and it the fact that it was chapping Jim's hide that Oswald had started controlling the cops in addition to the criminal underworld. Jim, you big, dumb idiot. All you had to do was have a drink with Oswald and tell him he's your best buddy and he would have been putty in your hands and you could have saved yourself all this trouble.

I thought PL was better at Ivy this episode, at least in her scenes with Selina. The problem is I just don't care about Ivy all that much. I never have (which is why I've never really been upset at the recasting of the role). So I almost resent the amount of screen time she's getting. I'm just checking my watch until one of the characters I actually care about comes back on screen, or like, Jerome or something. 

Oswald's letter was not what I expected - I thought it would just be "Come back and I'll give you want you need" - which would be to the point (and mildly dirty) and enough to intrigue Ed to come down to figure out what the hell he's talking about because he can't leave a riddle unsolved. But I suppose a long letter apologizing and asking to be friends again which also contains a simple code that the Riddler would easily spot is another way to do it.

So glad that these two are back working together, but because this is Gotham, we can't have anything nice without a side horrible. Poor Ed, so desperate to stay in control so he doesn't kill Lee. He really, REALLY didn't want the Riddler around. I am hoping that what Oswald actually triggered was more of a melding of the two rather than full Riddler. That way there will still be some push and pull where Lee is concerned. 

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"She already got to him!"

"No she didn't" *smacks upside the head. "Wake up Harvey". 

Hehehehe. They really have spent a lot of time together, haven't they? 

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The smashing of Lee's hand was disturbing. Usually the violence on this show is so over the top to be like a comic that it doesn't bother me but Lee's hand smash was just too realistic. Sophia needs to die now.

Happy Bruce and Alfred made up.

I don't mind Ivy, but I did think she was going to be too powerful with the Lazarus Water death plants, so I'm glad Selina got rid of that stuff.

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9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The anchor woman on TV looked like she had a whole animal on her head. Being a costume designer on this show must be a dream job. 

Yeah, her hair was very distracting.

 

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I did like Ivy a bit more this week, now that she has gone full on plant based serial killer.

So, I guess you could say that Ivy  has "grown" on you.  I do like the character a bit more, but do miss the second version a bit more than the current one.

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Sofia is freaking brutal. I wouldn't count Lee out though, she can be pretty ruthless when backed into a corner. Sofia is an awesome villain, but it seems like her reign will be coming to an end soon. She has pissed off a LOT of people lately. I do appreciate how she can pick out a fabulous outfit to wear for when she breaks her sister in laws hand. Sofia aint afraid to get her hands dirty. Literally. But only one hand. Because family is important.

I think Sofia is overrated.  That said, I never thought that I would feel any sympathy for Lee, but I really do have compassion for the current version.

 

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Edited by icemiser69
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7 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Nice to see Jim finally cop to how badly he has fucked up. But still...dude. This is all your fault (I feel like he let Harvey take too much of the blame. Harvey unraveled during the Pyg era and that was Jim's fault).

I am not so sure he is going to be all that forgiving of Jim.  Harvey has to be angry about that.

7 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Oswald's letter was not what I expected - I thought it would just be "Come back and I'll give you want you need" - which would be to the point (and mildly dirty) and enough to intrigue Ed to come down to figure out what the hell he's talking about because he can't leave a riddle unsolved. But I suppose a long letter apologizing and asking to be friends again which also contains a simple code that the Riddler would easily spot is another way to do it.

I really do like what the writers' did here.  Ed's subconscious mind picked up on what he couldn't readily see.

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2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Convenient that neither Ed nor Grundy were around when Sofia attacked Lee.

The writers' missed an opportunity here.  Both should have been there. 

52 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

The smashing of Lee's hand was disturbing. Usually the violence on this show is so over the top to be like a comic that it doesn't bother me but Lee's hand smash was just too realistic. Sophia needs to die now.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Sofia.  She has too much dirt on Jim to live, but somehow I get the feeling she will survive this thing.

Edited by icemiser69
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I am really enjoying Lee this season.  I am not sure what the attack means for her.  It could either send her running back to Jim or further down the rabbit hole.  This is Gotham and my guess is Dark Lee is gonna come out and play.  Whether or not she is going to have a part in the downfall in Sofia is anyone’s guess but I can see her not letting what happened stand.  Dark Lee is so much fun.

On another note:  I am not a Nygma/Penguin Shipper but their scene at Arkum was made of all kinds of win.  

So was the scene between Ivy And Selena 

Edited by Chaos Theory
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This was a good way to end Ivy's arc for the time being but given the leaked title for the finale, she better be back pretty soon as well.

I notice that she wore more green this week and even had red hair as well. Ivy and Selina's final confrontation was the highlight of the episode, considering both Ivy's schemes were botched up even before Selina confronted her.

Nice amount of one on one scenes this week - Ivy/Selina, Bruce/Alfred, Gordon/Bullock, Oswald/Edward and Leslie/Sofia.

Not surprised that Sofia took the Narrows from Leslie but at the same, her downfall is being signposted quite a bit as well.

I guess Bullock is back in the GCPD now, 8/10

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Ivy is too much of a murdering sociopath.  They need to ratchet her back so she can be cool like Ivy in the comics and games.

They've milked the whole Star Trek TOS Enemy Within plot long enough with Nygma.  Time to merge these two personalities together to make a fully functional Riddler.

Looking forward to Sofia getting hers.

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Yep, the Falcones are totally about family!  Sure, it sometimes requires you to smash your sister in-law's hand or, really, put out a freaking hit on your own father, but family, am I right?!  Sofia is just as unhinged as every other villain in Gotham and I love it.  But I do think she is wracking up way too many enemies now, and her downfall will happen soon if she isn't careful.  Sucks for Lee though.

Peyton List seemed more comfortable this go around, but Ivy still isn't that interesting of a villain.  And it's really hard to be invested in the relationship between her and Selina, because they've barely interacted since the earlier season and, again, Ivy's gone through three different actresses in a span of four seasons, and no chemistry has ever really been developed.

RIP, Nygma and hello Riddler, I guess!  Can't wait to see what kind of plan he and Oswald will cook up.  And I have to think Jerome will factor in somehow.

They really should have had a reason why Grundy wasn't around for the Sofia/Lee sit down.  Maybe have Sofia secretly start shit in the Narrows and he was off taking care of that.  It just didn't make sense that Lee would have had him around.

Glad Bruce and Alfred are back on good terms and Bruce is ready to accept who he is.

Is Bullock going to rejoin the GCPD, now?  Hope so!  Jim could really use him.

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17 hours ago, Kostgard said:

The problem is I just don't care about Ivy all that much. I never have (which is why I've never really been upset at the recasting of the role). So I almost resent the amount of screen time she's getting. I'm just checking my watch until one of the characters I actually care about comes back on screen,

Co-sign to your comments @Kostgard.  I haven't been this frustrated with Gotham since the writers had Fish Mooney taking over the show.  The Ivy character has always been boring to me, in all 3 of her incarnations.  There's simply not enough there there in Ivy's storyline to carry a major supervillain role in Gotham, and Peyton List doesn't have enough charisma to elicit any interest in her solely as a character.   Every minute with her on my TV is a minute I spend waiting for someone more interesting to take the stage, and every single character on Gotham is more interesting than her.  I'd be way more entertained by Robin Lord Taylor sitting alone in front of a fireplace silently sipping from a teacup than I would be by yet one more scene of Ivy blowing the pollen off a flower into someone's face, and watching the blowee shamble around croaking, "You're so beautiful". 

It was otherwise a pretty satisying episode for me.  It was great to get plenty of my favorite pairings in this episode.  Please, Show, end the Ivy Pepper storyline permanently.

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I just can't get into this Poison Ivy storyline; I liked the 1st 2 Ivys more than the current version.  The 1st was quirky but you rooted for her; also, that version led to one of Alfred's funniest lines  when he told Bruce to stand back because she looked like she had "the mange".  I liked Ivy #2's relationship with Oswald; they made a good team and were quite humorous together.  I just want to see this storyline end ASAP. 

I was hoping that the title of the episode meant we were going to see Bruce and Alfred  and Harvey and Jim reunite, and they did.  They just aren't complete without each other. Not to mention we got the Penguin and the Riddler together again.  One of Gotham's strengths is playing up the chemistry of these duos.  

I think Sofia is going to meet a grisly end after taking a sledge hammer to Lee's hand; she crossed a line with that scene.  Jim is no longer the idealistic, by-the-book cop we met in Season 1; I think he would eliminate her not only for the greater good but for pure revenge.  Grundy could easily rip her apart.  It's Gotham; they will find a creative way for retribution. 

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35 minutes ago, ChristiKRN said:

 I think Sofia is going to meet a grisly end after taking a sledge hammer to Lee's hand; she crossed a line with that scene.  Jim is no longer the idealistic, by-the-book cop we met in Season 1; I think he would eliminate her not only for the greater good but for pure revenge.  Grundy could easily rip her apart.  It's Gotham; they will find a creative way for retribution. 

There's no way what happened to, say, Theo Galavan happens to Sofia. She's a woman.

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I really like the Ivy storyline.  I thought it was cleverly done.  Then again I don't hate the actress who plays her and thinks she is fine in the roll.  Not particularly great but not awful either.   Honestly I don't get the hate for her.  

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I am glad that this appears to be the end of Party-Boy Bruce as I found that story line to be incredibly dull. I also don't get the hate for Ivy. I like her story although they could tone down the crazy a bit and have that develop more over time.

Kind of tired of the Ed/Riddler personalities. How about just The Riddler please? Maybe that's going to happen now.

This is the first episode where I thought Sofia genuinely seemed like a believable villain. And I actually felt sorry for Lee. Overall, a pretty good episode.

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23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The anchor woman on TV looked like she had a whole animal on her head.

Very Hunger Games-ish.

I actually find Ivy's story line very boring. She wants to kill everyone because her dad got killed - whatever - so what, she'll spend the rest of her life alone, as the sole human on earth, or at least, in Gotham? And what does Ivy eat, anyway? If she was so angered by the guy eating a pickle, she must only eat the flesh of animals...animals who EAT PLANTS! Or perhaps Ivy exists by photosynthesis. At any rate, I never felt invested in her or her story line, and truthfully, would not have minded if Selena had knifed her in the gut and finished her off.

Thank goodness Alfred is back. He and Bruce are my favorites - even when they screw up upon occasion. I can't think of a better mentor or teacher for Bruce. 

I loved it when Harvey was back at headquarters right before the big event and he was on the phone describing it as "...some charity ball for hobos," or something off-hand like that. It made me chuckle.

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Caught up tonight. More over-the-top fun and lots of reunions. Also, Sofia is the worst kinda-sorta-sister-in-law ever. Needless to say, she will die at Leslie's hands. And since Leslie's the smart doctor, it's going to be methodical and painful. "You know that whole thing about doing no harm? I've had to rethink a lot of things in Gotham." And the guy who regained the Narrows? Yeah, he'll die a grisly death. Minimum, it will be an insane way to go.

Sidenote: isn't Butch with Tabitha? I don't remember him coming back, but I could be wrong. Minimum, he's probably recovering from becoming a near-brain-dead zombie. Or maybe he's getting acquainted with this regrown hand. Over in Agents of SHIELD, Elena watches and bangs her head against a wall.

Poor Ed. He finally finds a place to fit in, and now he's either dead or consumed by Riddler. It's probably for the best; that villain's relative chill balances out Oswald's craziness. @SnarkyTart prefers him sipping from a teacup than Ivy's blowing on a flower. I understand that, but my motivation for that would be for something to go wrong, so he can throw a fit, breaking the teacup and the accompanying stuff (plate, kettle, etc.) Then Ed walks in, cleans up the mess, and calms his buddy down.

I'm thinking this Ivy is just hypersensitive around plants. And probably all vegetables. Seeing a guy seeing a pickle sets her off? Okay, I get that she was going to kill that guy in her pursuit of Harvey, but that was harsh. Something show her the Swamp Thing story from Alan Moore where Floronic Man tries to claim the Earth for plants. In other news, Selina continues to hang tough in general. I know she's a canon character, but I fear for her future.

At least Bruce was contrite. Telling Alfred that killing Ra's al Guhl sending him to a bottomless pit of debauchery that only a near-fatal drug trip could snap up out of it wouldn't really play out well. But he has a moment before the shit hits the fan, and he saves people. And he gets shot by Jim. Thirty years from now, they'll be laughing about that.

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Her hand got smashed, does that really necessitate a nasal cannula?

I assumed she was recovering post-surgery, but I don't see why she needed nutrition via cannula--she didn't have massive abdominal damage or anything.

Damn, that was brutal. Sofia really overplayed her hand (HA! I'll be here all week!) with that shit. At first it seems brilliant, the kind of horrifying, intimidating move her daddy would have made, and just the message Dummy Jim needs to come crawling to her feet and terrorize the Narrows and whatever, but Sofia has no endgame. That's why she's going to get herself killed.

If you're going to make as many enemies as Sofia has, you'd damn well better have some pretty powerful allies and a consolidated power base to keep you safe, and she doesn't have that. There can't be a faction left in Gotham that isn't horrified/sick of her extreme measures, and she while she apparently thinks the Falcone name is some kind of magical talisman or something, the fact is, she's the only Falcone left. There's nobody to fear once she's taken down--hell, her crazed desire to run every single thing in Gotham is simply making sure all other underworld figures are getting ready to take her out in order to protect their own holdings/take over themselves. Every move she's made to bind Jim to her has backfired and she keeps doubling down on what hasn't worked. If she really thinks hurting Lee is going to make him back off she's hardly the judge of character she boasts she is. She's the quintessential dog in a manger: so furiously demanding control of something she can't use because if she doesn't have ALL OF IT she doesn't know what to do.

Corey Michael Smith really brought both sides of his character, and in a genuinely disturbing way. Showing how mental illness can drive you to the brink because the illness itself insists you cannot defeat it? Eek. And realizing he'd literally been working against himself? It was genuinely sad. 

(I did wonder why neither he nor Lee ever wondered where Grundy was.)

Bruce coming into his own, kinda sorta, was another satisfying step on his road to Bathood. Alfred making him work for it was enjoyable as well, as was Selena's telling Bruce off. I love how she just did not have one second for his little existential crisis because she's got to deal with her old friend being a serial killer. Gotham's Motto: Triage Is Our Life's Blood. 

Annnnnnd Ivy. Her lack of perspective/sanity makes sense in a strictly plotline way for her nutjob plans, but honestly, I get somebody that obsessed would have blind spots but how can she be so enamored of plants and not understand anything about how biospheres and hell, biological life itself works?  Is she planning to eat anything ever? Can she photosynthesize now or what? It's utterly stupid to have her freak out about somebody eating a damn pickle. And while I suppose the show is trying to make a point about how she's using her fanaticism as a cover for her hurt and greed (and about terrorism in general from that point of view,) it makes the character come across as disjointed and sloppy, as if her left frond doesn't know what her right one is doing. We've already got Ed for that kind of thing.

Edited by Snookums
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15 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I really like the Ivy storyline.  I thought it was cleverly done.  Then again I don't hate the actress who plays her and thinks she is fine in the roll.  Not particularly great but not awful either.   Honestly I don't get the hate for her.  

It's giving Selina much needed focus apart from the Sirens where she's pretty much a tagalong.

Not sure why they needed to recast.  The storyline is fine, List needs to turn it up several notches though.  She doesn't ooze threatening like Crystal Reed does.

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It's not every day that you say "Can they stop breaking the hand?  Go for the foot!" At least Fish gouging out her eye was different!

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Finally caught up on the show. I don't mind Peyton List but she just doesn't bring the cray cray this show needs. I've loved Sofia but damn that shit she did to Lee was brutal. She's gonna have to pay for that. I loved the Penguin and Riddler scene but lord help me I kinda like Ed having feelings for Lee storyline. CMS just brings it as Ed. He actually can get me to feel for that murdering bastard. I hope he doesn't try to hurt her. My thinking is that he will have a big as beef with Sofia as Penguin does. That will be fun.

Edited by festivus

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David Mazouz grows like a foot every episode. In that scene where Selina was craning her neck up to talk to him I was reminded of season 1 where Bruce was actually shorter than Selina.

Damn that speech Bruce gave almost brought me to tears! I'm probably the most invested in the Alfred/Bruce relationship than any other relationship on the show so I'm so happy they're together again. And I think that was the first time Bruce has ever actually said he sees Alfred as a father to him. Awww.

Ivy's hair colour is bugging me. The last Ivy had beautiful red hair and with this one, everyone keeps describing her as having red hair but all I see is brown with maybe a slight tint of dark red. It's so stupid but it's kind of annoying me - I would not describe her as a redhead.

I wasn't particularly interested in the Riddler/Ed/Lee stuff until Ossie showed up. I'm happy they're back as allies because the whole trying to kill each other all the time was getting tiresome.

I get that Ed was at the asylum during the Lee/Sofia smashing time but where the hell was Grundy? Lee was taking precautions but didn't bring her biggest protector?

Seriously? Only Selina thought to go to Ivy's place and wait for her to come back? Not one member of the police was left there? Great policing there Jim!

I'm still trying to figure out if Ivy is meant to be the big villain of this half or not. She doesn't seem to have a long-term plan other than make people into plants at random events. Also, with Sofia being a bad bitch and the feeling that Ra's al Ghul will come back at some point, I don't see where Ivy fits in.

I really want Ivy to meet up with Penguin. I want to see his reaction to her now and isn't he kind of the reason she took all those potions to become like this?

And of course - Harvey's back! And Jim actually confided in him!

All in all this episode was basically about getting relationships back together which really needed to happen.

Edited by superloislane
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I suppose Gotham loves chopping hands because without one's hands they're not physically capable of doing a lot (you need your hands to hold on to a weapon, for example) so it's a statement of how one loses their power.

I also think the show mutilates hands (and eyes) since it doesn't require too many special effects to display on screen (since the loss of a hand or an eye can be easily covered through clothing choices).

It may also be the least unsettling parts of the body to mutilate. Since the show can't go for the privates (like real criminals would do), they have to pick "less risky" parts to dismember.

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On 3/16/2018 at 9:48 AM, Dobian said:

Ivy is too much of a murdering sociopath.  They need to ratchet her back so she can be cool like Ivy in the comics and games.

Yes. In the comics and most other media Ivy is an eco-terrorist, which makes her one of the few Batman villains whose motivations are actually understandable, it's just her actions that are wrong. This Ivy is just a psychopath murdering people for kicks so it's impossible to emphasize with her. A well written villain either has understandable reasons for what they do or are unapologetic gleefully evil bastards so depraved that you might even want to root for them, something Ivy distinctly lacks.

On a side note the fact that the GCPD doesn't have a "shoot on sight" order on Ivy is insane.

On 3/16/2018 at 9:48 AM, Dobian said:

They've milked the whole Star Trek TOS Enemy Within plot long enough with Nygma.  Time to merge these two personalities together to make a fully functional Riddler.

They're going to milk this storyline until they decide to end the show, just like they keep having Oswald become the King of Gotham... then lose it... then become the King of Gotham again... then lose it again... The writers just drag their feet with every canon character because actually developing and progressing them can't happen in a show dedicated to a time before Batman is supposed to exist.

On 3/16/2018 at 8:59 PM, Biggie B said:

I actually find Ivy's story line very boring. She wants to kill everyone because her dad got killed

A dad who it's heavily implied was an abusive asshole, so if anything Harvey should be the one person on the planet she'd want to spare from her rampage.

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I think they need to narrow Ivy's scope a bit in order to make her more believable. Even if her father was terrible, at least when he was alive she had a home. After Harvey killed him, she was living on the streets. I can understand why she's mad at that. I can understand being mad at Wayne Enterprises because of their connection to Indian Hill because it was an Indian Hill freak who turned her life upside down the first time when he aged her up. I can get behind the eco-terrorism thing, IF it actually makes sense. She can't get mad at someone for eating a pickle. Because I got bad news for her - plants are in everyone's food chain. Including her own. If she looked at how gross and dirty Gotham was and thought, "I'm going to hand his corrupted pile of filth that ruined me back over to nature" I could get behind that. Instead she appears to be mad at everyone because...plants. This may all be a moot point because I suspect Ivy is going to be sidelined soon so they can focus on Jerome, but if they keep her around in any capacity they need to work on her goals a bit.

 

The other character whose motivations are about to get murky is Ed. I mean, The Riddler's whole "I'm gonna kill Lee" thing was because Lee was giving strength to Ed, making it harder for Riddler to take over, yes? I mean, otherwise, he was just gonna kill her for giggles?

But it seems like Riddler found an alternative way to take control since Ed was dead set against killing Lee - he went to Oswald and asked him to set him free instead. So...now what? I mean, I assume that Oswald, Ed and Lee will team up against Sofia, but what's Ed's real motivation anymore? Oswald and Lee have clear reasons to hate Sofia and we understand why they would want to seek revenge, and I guess...Eddie's just coming along for the ride? "Riddler" claims to not be particularly fond of either of them (going to Oswald was more of a "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" situation), so either he's going to have to develop some sort of fondness for one or both of them or they are going to have to go with some sort of meld" of both personalities and "the Riddler" will find that he still kinda likes Lee.

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23 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

They're going to milk this storyline until they decide to end the show, just like they keep having Oswald become the King of Gotham... then lose it... then become the King of Gotham again... then lose it again... The writers just drag their feet with every canon character because actually developing and progressing them can't happen in a show dedicated to a time before Batman is supposed to exist.

Yes - I still enjoy the show, but there is kind of been there done that now with many of the characters.  Oswald and Ed have been great characters, but they probably should have been taken off the canvas at some point, because they don't really know what to do with them and are forced to keep them on this cycle.

I am glad they did not drag out the Bruce-Alfred estrangement any longer.  They did a nice job with their reconciliation.

I think having Sophia and Ivy on at the same time is not helping matters, because they both come off as brats without much depth.  Their performances are largely sneering and posing;  Not a lot of subtext or layers in their performances and they just are not as interesting as the other villains. 

Ivy would be more effective if she showed a little vulnerability.   Even if in a crazy way she really looked like she cared about the plants or other environmental issues where you saw some emotion other than pouty revenge.  They also missed an opportunity not exploring how she felt having her childhood taken away from her as she was aged.  That should be a bigger part of her pathos.

I know Sophia has her family name, but she just does not have the charisma or the presence where it is believable she is controlling all of these criminals.  Obviously she has been successful with her plans and must be very clever, but it does not really come across when you see her on screen.

I do enjoy the show, but I wonder if they should decide on an end date.  It is not a concept that can go on indefinitely, esp. if they keep going through the same rise and falls.  

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5 hours ago, Kathemy said:

They don't need to decide on an end date, the ratings are doing it for them.

The ratings might be lower because of NCAA basketball. I still think this is one of FOX's signature shows and they'll give it a proper sendoff at the very least.

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On 3/16/2018 at 9:23 AM, Kathemy said:

Much better episode this week but oh God I just can't stop hating Peyton List's Ivy.

She can leave any time and take Agents of SHIELD's Dove Cameron with her.

On 3/16/2018 at 3:55 PM, SnarkyTart said:

Co-sign to your comments @Kostgard.  I haven't been this frustrated with Gotham since the writers had Fish Mooney taking over the show.

2 major differences (for me anyway): Jada Pinkett Smith is way hotter than Peyton List, and is a much better actress.

On 3/16/2018 at 5:08 PM, Kathemy said:

There's no way what happened to, say, Theo Galavan happens to Sofia. She's a woman.

I dunno -- I don't think Gotham would pause at blowing up a woman.  This the show that slaughtered a kid, remember.

On 3/19/2018 at 8:02 PM, UNOSEZ said:

I hope this isnt the last we see of renegade...

Ditto.  Not only for the reasons above, but it's about time they had a woman of COLOR on this show.

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12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I dunno -- I don't think Gotham would pause at blowing up a woman.  This the show that slaughtered a kid, remember.

I meant the first death.

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2 hours ago, Kathemy said:

I meant the first death.

If it's someone like Lee or Barbara doing the beating, they'd show Sofia getting hit like a pinata. It's why they could show Lee getting her hand pummelled- because another woman was doing the pummeling. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 3:10 AM, Snookums said:

Corey Michael Smith really brought both sides of his character, and in a genuinely disturbing way.

I know not everyone loves the split personality, but for me, in addition to all the other reunions in this episode (Jim/Selina, Bruce/Alfred, Nygma/Oswald), I love seeing the two sides of Ed be back playing against each other.  It's not a fair game now, with Ed's brain damage, but Corey Michael Smith is one of the few actors who can demonstrate that he really does have on screen chemistry with himself.  Ed's struggle against the Riddler is one of my favorite bits.  Though most of the relationships on this show work well for me.

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On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:18 AM, tennisgurl said:

Awwwww everyone makes up! Alfred is back at Wayne Manner, Harvey and Jim are working together again and are drifting back towards their BFF status, and even Penguin and Ed are partners in crime again. Well, kinda. When you get alternate personalities involved, it always gets complicated. But, I am just so happy that Alfred is back with Bruce, and Harvey and Jim are hashing their shit out! Now, I need hugs guys! Gruff, awkward, heartfelt hugs. 

The anchor woman on TV looked like she had a whole animal on her head. Being a costume designer on this show must be a dream job. 

I did like Ivy a bit more this week, now that she has gone full on plant based serial killer. And Selena got a nice hero moment when she stopped her from killing more people. I also liked her conversation with Bruce. Oh those two. 

I love how Lucius always gets super interested when he finds something weird he can autopsy. Not in a creepy way, but just in a "ooooooh fascinating" way. When you live in Gotham, I guess you just get used to it. 

Sofia is freaking brutal. I wouldn't count Lee out though, she can be pretty ruthless when backed into a corner. Sofia is an awesome villain, but it seems like her reign will be coming to an end soon. She has pissed off a LOT of people lately. I do appreciate how she can pick out a fabulous outfit to wear for when she breaks her sister in laws hand. Sofia aint afraid to get her hands dirty. Literally. But only one hand. Because family is important.

What was interesting was that we had the 3 male pairings kissing and making up (Jim/Harvey, Bruce/Alfred, Ed/Oswald) but the girls (Selena/Ivy, Sophia/Lee) fall out. 

 

On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:57 AM, Danielg342 said:

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Oh, and Sofia literally hammering Lee's hand was all kinds of squeamish- talk about laying down the hammer.

It takes A LOT to get me to squirm and Morena Baccharin did a wonderful job.

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Seconded, takes a lot to shock people these days but the Gotham really seems to be pushing the brutality this season, Ivy and her plants are fantasy, this was so real. 

On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 11:21 AM, AngelKitty said:

The smashing of Lee's hand was disturbing. Usually the violence on this show is so over the top to be like a comic that it doesn't bother me but Lee's hand smash was just too realistic. Sophia needs to die now.

Happy Bruce and Alfred made up.

I don't mind Ivy, but I did think she was going to be too powerful with the Lazarus Water death plants, so I'm glad Selina got rid of that stuff.

Yeah, it would be a rerun of the tetch virus storyline. 

On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:48 PM, Dobian said:

Ivy is too much of a murdering sociopath.  They need to ratchet her back so she can be cool like Ivy in the comics and games.

They've milked the whole Star Trek TOS Enemy Within plot long enough with Nygma.  Time to merge these two personalities together to make a fully functional Riddler.

Looking forward to Sofia getting hers.

Agreed, a little more subtlety and seduction, the 2nd Ivy had that in spades. 

On ‎18‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:43 PM, Danielg342 said:

I suppose Gotham loves chopping hands because without one's hands they're not physically capable of doing a lot (you need your hands to hold on to a weapon, for example) so it's a statement of how one loses their power.

Yeah, that does seem to be a recurring theme doesn't it? No one's replaced it with a chainsaw yet though?

On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:36 AM, immortalfrieza said:

A dad who it's heavily implied was an abusive asshole, so if anything Harvey should be the one person on the planet she'd want to spare from her rampage.

Does it matter? He was still her father?

On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 5:13 AM, jhlipton said:

She can leave any time and take Agents of SHIELD's Dove Cameron with her.

2 major differences (for me anyway): Jada Pinkett Smith is way hotter than Peyton List, and is a much better actress.

I dunno -- I don't think Gotham would pause at blowing up a woman.  This the show that slaughtered a kid, remember.

Ditto.  Not only for the reasons above, but it's about time they had a woman of COLOR on this show.

No way, Peyton is much hotter even against a younger JPS. Have you not noticed a certain badass glamazon called Jessica Lucas on this show? 

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Which ally will Lee seek against Sophia? Where will the Sirens stand in all this? Will Grundy come to the rescue? 

God, Oswald is CLEVER! Watch out Sophia, this bird isn't done yet!

Ivy's hair isn't auburn or scarlet, I think they should dye it a bit brighter as the 2nd Ivy had it. 

Not sure how Ivy thinks the world's ecology works? Some plants actually do want to be eaten in order to spread their seeds.

Boy, Mario sure was the best of his family! You wonder was Sophia jealous of Lee's relationship with him? 

Like the fact that Alfred doesn't just come running back, Bruce burning the mask and saying he was wrong to reach out make you wonder if he was truly reforming for a moment? 

You'd think they'd warn Harvey about Ivy's whammy? Equally why isn't everyone wearing respirators? 

Ivy keeps talking about how the people of Gotham hurt her, I always think back to when she was sick and told Selena 'No doctors', you wonder what her history is? 

Lee and Ed actually make a great team, sorry to see that go. I like that Selena uses her genuine friendship with Ivy to save the day. 

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On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:18 AM, tennisgurl said:

Awwwww everyone makes up! Alfred is back at Wayne Manner, Harvey and Jim are working together again and are drifting back towards their BFF status, and even Penguin and Ed are partners in crime again.

Well, the guys are back together. The ladies... not so much.

Lee and Sofia: Hey, Jim, who would have thought that (literally!) getting into bed with a mobster might have negative consequences and that she might act like a mobster in asserting control? I realise she has the power of BOOBS (and, I'll admit, very nice ones) but you'd think the fact that she murdered her own father might clue you in that she is not a nice lady!

Selina and Ivy:

On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:18 AM, tennisgurl said:

I did like Ivy a bit more this week, now that she has gone full on plant based serial killer. And Selena got a nice hero moment when she stopped her from killing more people.

Me too, but when Ivy was looking round Harvey's Bar and getting all upset at people eating plants, I did start to wonder what she was eating. Is she on a pure carnivorous diet? Does she photosynthesize? If it's the latter, she'd need to be closer to her comic portrayal of having full on green skin and walking around essentially naked (with a few strategically placed leaves) though I understand that would be a real pain for the actress (and I'm sure IRL that wouldn't provide nearly enough energy to support a human, but I can handwave that, since it's a comic book science).

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On 7/11/2018 at 2:34 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Peyton is much hotter even against a younger JPS. Have you not noticed a certain badass glamazon called Jessica Lucas on this show? 

I can see absolutely no good coming from continuing with this conversation.

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I liked this episode, mostly because they did a good job of having Bruce proving that he had changed with Alfred.  I hope they expand on Bruce trying to keep his identity a secret to show us the creation of his false public persona, so this little arc wasn't for naught.

Jim with his shoot first, ask questions later policy almost killed Bruce.  

Harvey working together with Jim again was also nice, especially Jim admitting that he really messed up.

As usual, they are resetting the game board, what with the Penguin and the Riddler back together and all.  I'm disappointed since I wanted to see more of him and Lee together bringing Sofia down.  At least that would have been a little different.

Hopefully, we are done with the Ivy subplot.  As said above, her vendetta against every human in Gotham wasn't interesting.

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