S04.E06: The Laws Of Gods And Men 2014.05.11

[NoWillToResist]

 

Shae turned it down, in part, because she didn't want any children who'd be killed by their grandfather if their existence was discovered.

 

So I have to take this as another example of Shae being inconsistently written. She refused that offer because Tywin is a monster, yet she scoffed at Tyrion's concerns that Tywin might have HER killed? If Tywin will murder innocent babies, he sure as hell won't even bat an eyelash at arranging to have some insignificant whore whacked.

[anuhealani]

Because it's illogical if that's your job? Granted, TONE can mean a lot, but still. She is literally a whore. It's not a judgement...it's her job. Wait...it was her job, right? I always had that impression. If she wasn't, then a million apologies to the character, but I thought she was?

 

Anyway, I suspect we will be given more information about her testimony against Tyrion.

 

I used the 'you'll have to kill me first' merely as the other extreme of "rot in hell, you bastard". :)

 

 

But he gave HER many choices (and sometimes pleas!) to leave as well and she turned them down. I don't recall him making her any promises about running away together, but I may be misremembering.

 

 

I took those words from Tyrion as proof that she wasn't just a whore to him. He does care about her (or love her, whichever), but the facts of their circumstances can't be changed; they never could. He's a nobleman and she's a whore; it's not like they could ever marry unless he turned his back on his family and everything he knew. Her BEST case scenario was being a mistress and maybe the involved parties would have been on board with that.

 

But once her life was in danger, things changed. It blows my mind that after everything they'd been through and after he was warning her to be careful, she suddenly lost her earlier intelligence and was totally unsubtle and irrational. And then, even though she knows that he's scared for her life, she dismisses the threat and then can't figure out why he said terrible things to get her to leave? Did Pycelle slip her some Essence of Stupid?

 

No, she's not a whore to Tyrion. Of course she started off that way, but then he fell in love with her. This was made very explicit to her and to the viewers over the course of three solid seasons. You can't say that his cruelty in sending her off is both true (she's a whore to him) and false (she should have known he didn't mean the horrible things he said, and that he only said them to get her to leave). You have to pick one. Her being a sex worker before they fell in love is irrelevant to their relationship now. She is fully aware that he does not see her as a prostitute; therefore she has every right to take offense, should he call her a whore. It's not illogical or a sign that she thinks irrationally.

 

It's also established on the show that her life was in danger from the very first day he brought her to King's Landing. Tyrion knew it was a bad idea. So I don't understand why Shae is the only one taking a share of the stupidity here. Tyrion is arguably more stupid because he knew exactly what he was dealing with in the personality of Tywin, from Day One.

 

Not sure if this is considered a spoiler, since it's from a WiCnet interview, not the show itself, but Bryan Cogman, the writer, confirmed that

Cersei set up the witness testimonies

. It was also confirmed back in the beginning of the season that Cersei and Tywin had made Shae (through Cersei's spy), so hopefully the show will give us more info on any threats to Shae's wellbeing. Given what we know of Tywin (and the straightforward threats he made toward any whore of Tyrion's), it's really unreasonable and/or lousy writing to say that Shae wasn't threatened.

Edited May 15, 2014 by anuhealani

[wanderwoman]

Mr. EB said something along the same lines about how Dany should expect to be getting a lot more reports from the locals about her dragons killing their vast flocks.

 

Just where is she getting the money to pay the first guy for his goats anyway? I know she's been freeing the slaves, but is she taking the money from those cities too? I guess since she's the queen now, she can just take things like money but what's going to happen a month or a year from now when the money she originally took is gone? Is she going to tax the remaining masters? How will the economy of these cities survive without the slaves? I don't expect that the masters will start doing the work of the slaves, so who is going to do that? The freed slaves? I'm not saying she is wrong for freeing the slaves, but I don't think she has considered the long term impact.

 

As we learned in this episode from the Braavosi banker, it's not enough to have an army. You need to be able to feed them too. In addiiton, if Dany freed the slaves, then who is now providing food for them? The masters are no longer their masters so they don't have to feed their former slaves. Are the slaves all going to become farmers? Servants who do the slave work but for wages?

See, that's always been my thought since Dany took the unsullied.  The big pan out to reveal just how many troops she had didn't show ANY chuckwagons or water transports or supplies.  They're crossing desserts with no food or water?

[ihartcoffee]

See, that's always been my thought since Dany took the unsullied.  The big pan out to reveal just how many troops she had didn't show ANY chuckwagons or water transports or supplies.  They're crossing desserts with no food or water?

Yeah, they are kinda glossing over that little detail. That's a lot of mouths to feed.

[NoWillToResist]

 

No, she's not a whore to Tyrion. Of course she started off that way, but then he fell in love with her. This was made very explicit to her and to the viewers over the course of three solid seasons. You can't say that his cruelty in sending her off is both true (she's a whore to him) and false (she should have known he didn't mean the horrible things he said, and that he only said them to get her to leave). You have to pick one. Her being a sex worker before they fell in love is irrelevant to their relationship now. She is fully aware that he does not see her as a prostitute;

 

But that's why I didn't understand her reaction to his insults. I thought it was clear that they were both emotionally on the same page before that (i.e. they have deep feelings for each other). Then he tells her that KL is too dangerous and that his family is specifically aware of her and will likely hurt/kill her. She scoffs at that and refuses to leave. IIRC, he continues to worry and try to get her to leave KL and she says no. Then, out of the blue, he yells at her, calls her a whore blah blah blah, and she can't see what he's doing? I just find that hard to believe considering how observant she'd been prior to all this ballyhoo. Her not seeing through his veneer of scorn just felt contrived to me.

[nanners84]

... Could Shae be "white fanging" Tyrion back?? Perhaps they were originally going to use her as some sort of leverage for his demise and she wants him to hate her??

Nah, she's probably just stupid, or written stupid. You know, I remember the first few seasons being so impressed by the female characters, and now they're either stupid, petty (Cersei) and pretentious (queen Dany).

[Lady S.]

But he gave HER many choices (and sometimes pleas!) to leave as well and she turned them down. I don't recall him making her any promises about running away together, but I may be misremembering.

No, he never did. But she pleaded with him to run away with her after Blackwater and get away from those "horrible people". He declined for no other reason than that he was good at playing the game. And he gave her opportunities to leave but never actually told her he didn't want her to stay, until Varys advised him to. Back in 4.01 he wouldn't even answer her question about if he still wanted her. And before that, he never actually tried to break up with her, just keep her hidden. He brought her to King's Landing in the first place after knowing her a matter of days, just because the father he called a c*** had forbidden it. He should have taken real steps to make her leave when Tywin first returned, not waited until Varys warned him. I fully agree that Shae's intelligence and survival skills have been inconsistently written, but Tyrion hardly tried as much as he could have to get her out and his failure to do so somewhat belies the risk that he couldn't keep her a secret forever. Not that I'm really judging him too hard for that or his refusal to abandon his family, but it's not like he tried to dump Shae multiple times and just couldn't keep her away from him. She knows Tywin and Cersei are dangerous, but Tyrion claims he's best at outwitting horrible people, and how afraid could he be if he offers to raise a family as if they can do so secretly, because he's that good at outwitting horrible people?

 

If it means anything, I think I remember Ros not wanting to be called a whore anymore in s3, which didn't make much sense to me either.

[Ace]

Jamie realized he made a tactical error stating  Tyrion would be sent to Castle Black when Tywin accepted his terms easily. I think Tywin would have agreed to an innocent verdict to get Jamie to leave the Kings Guard and become heir to Castley Rock. Jamie really doesn't know how to use leverage. It seems that sending Tyrion to Castle Black is exactly what Tywin intended. Jamie should have considered that though Tywin wants rid of Tyrion, he can't kill him and executing Tyrion after a guilty verdict would be killing him.

 

I still think Shae was/is spying for Tywin. Returning after being given free passage and wealth to start a new life is exactly what a good spy would do.  I think Shae looked worried when Tyrion called for TBC, because with Bron as his champion he has a great chance of being acquitted and will punish her for her lies and deception.

 

 Cercei may have coersed Shae into making false accusations against Tyrion and Sansa.  Shae being just a love stuck scorned woman seems too simplistic.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Ace

[Starving Writer]

 

I'm still finding it hard to understand why Littlefinger dropped the necklace into the boat with Dontas' corpse for the Lannisters to find.   It clearly points the finger at Sansa, someone who he seems to really want to protect for whatever squicky reason.   Toss that necklace a few feet further out and there's a lot more mystery.

 

Littlefinger doesn't want to protect Sansa.  He wants to possess Sansa (due to her being a physical reminder of her mother, whom Littlefinger was obsessed with).  Big difference.  By casting suspicion on her and turning everybody against Sansa (thereby forcing her into hiding) that makes it so much easier for Sansa to rely on Littlefinger for protection.  Sansa literally has nowhere else to go now, which is exactly what Littlefinger wants.  

 

I hope that helps make the reasons for Littlefinger's actions clearer.