S04.E06: The Laws Of Gods And Men 2014.05.11

[Constantinople]

I'm a bit disappointed that Oberyn didn't shake things up more at the trial. I would think the next best thing to killing Lannisters would be to humiliate them publicly, and the trial offered a myriad of opportunities.

I'm also a little disappointed we didn't get to see the judges talking privately about the trial during the break.

[SNeaker]

Clearly everything Tywin does is well planned and thoroughly thought out, so considering a set-up of sorts is a possibility, and after all, that is what Tywin has always wanted from Jaime, but how could he have predicted Jaime would have made that offer?  I am sure Jaime didn’t even see that offer coming.

 

Maybe Tywin planned to offer the deal to Jaime after Tyrion's inevitable guilty verdict if Jaime didn't offer first.

[Conan Troutman]

If Tyrion names Jaime and loses then Tywin has no sons to carry on the name.  Trump card, Tyrion. 

That's a great idea for Tyrion to do. But I doubt this will be the way the situation is resolved. Would be a bit anticlimactic if Tyrion just named Jamie, Jamie agrees und Tywin just goes "Well then, forget about that trial stuff". I guess we'll see the trial by combat, would be a wasted opportunity by show not to do that. So I guess we can scratch Jamie from that list. Maybe Tyrion indeed asks him, but Jamie may just won't do it (for the ovious reason of not being very good at fighting ATM). More on that in the spec thread. 

[bravelittletoaster]

"Khaleesi, your dragons have killed a thousand of my goats, five hundred horses, and two hundred and fifty pandas.

 

lol.  I think y'all are vastly overestimating the expense of goats, though.  Dany offering to pay him 3x his herd's value is like some rich guy knocking over your Starbucks and handing you a $20 as an apology.  She's good for it.

[KurlyGrl]

Just had to watch GOT again on HBO Go. 

 

Had forgotten that Theon tried to bite Yara’s hand off to prevent her from taking him away.  Again, Alfie did a remarkable job last night.

 

Mace Tyrell in the small council meeting after his little face off with Oberon about who will be master of what.  Once Tywin had him fetch a quill and paper, did you catch the look on his face to Oberon?  It was sort of like.  “Humph!!  See, how special I am that Tywin asks ME to fetch his paper.  So there!!”  Them Oberon giving him that “whatever” look.  Too freaking funny.  Sometimes there is just no dialogue needed at all on this show.  But did you also catch on to how much attention Oberon was paying to the entire proceeding.  That man is a smart one.

 

I also like it that Tommen felt bad for Tyrion.

 

Was everyone gonna just let Maester Pycell go on and on and on with his endless list of poisons.  LOL!  Thank God Oberon put the kibosh on that.

 

What was Tyrion REALLY trying to ask Varys?  Can’t figure that one out.

 

Why did Jaime look so utterly flabbergasted when Tywin readily accepted his offer?  Jaime made the offer in good faith.  He left no cards in his pocket.  He offered all he had to give.  And like I said before, I love that Jaime made that sacrifice for his bother.  That was the most selfless things he has ever done in his life.   But did he expect Tywin to say no, considering he was offering Tywin exactly want he had always wanted.  Just don’t know why he would be surprised.

 

Even though I know Shae was coerced into her testimony, I can’t help but feel that she enjoyed it, too.  When Tyrion looked at her and just said please don’t, Shae looked at him and said I am a whore, remember.  That was obviously a throw back to their last conversation.  Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

Edited May 12, 2014 by KurlyGrl

[JTMacc99]

I'm really going to need some more information to truly believe that CSI: Kings Landing determined that Sansa's necklace actually contained the strangler poison. I don't believe a word out of Pycell's mouth.

 

It seems unbelievably far-fetched that they could have figured out ANY of the clues let alone find residue and correctly identify it.

 

So I think the only logical assumption I can make would be that he was in on the scheme.  At least now I have the motivation for framing Tyrion explained. Lady Olenna probably didn't care who took the rap. Littlefinger didn't really seem to have any ill will towards Tyrion.  But Pycelle? Now HE would  gladly set up Tyrion. It's probably all he ever thinks about.

[dramachick]

Why did Jaime look so utterly flabbergasted when Tywin readily accepted his offer?  Jaime made the offer in good faith.  He left no cards in his pocket.  He offered all he had to give.  And like I said before, I love that Jaime made that sacrifice for his bother.  That was the most selfless things he has ever done in his life.   But did he expect Tywin to say no, considering he was offering Tywin exactly want he had always wanted.  Just don’t know why he would be surprised.

 

The words had barely gotten out of Jaime's mouth when Tywin LEANED FORWARD AND EAGERLY said, "DONE!" so it was obvious that this was what Tywin really wanted, and Jaime realized that he had been played.

Edited May 13, 2014 by sukeyna

[KurlyGrl]

 

 

It seems unbelievably far-fetched that they could have figured out ANY of the clues let alone find residue and correctly identify it.

So I think the only logical assumption I can make would be that he was in on the scheme.

 

True.  It’s not like they can take the residue, send it to the lab, break it down into its base components, chemically match it up with what Pycell has in stock, and voila!!  Never considered Pycell having a hand in it all, either.  A good point worth thinking about!!  He probably knew just the right mixture to use, too.  And yes, he has reason to want Tyrion dead.

 

 

The words had barely gotten out of Jaime's mouth when Tywin LEANED FORWARD AND EAGERLY said, "I ACCEPT!" so it was obvious that this was what Tywin really wanted, and Jaime realized that he had been played.

 

Yup.  I can absolutely believe that.  He was played!!  That was Jaime's look.  Oh, snap.  He got me!!  Someone up post also mentioned that perhaps Tywin would have made that same offer if Jaime had never even thought about making the offer.  

[DrSpaceman]

My question for this episode is how big as that statue that sits in the harbor of that huge Soldier?  How did they make such a thing with their primitive technology?

[Independent George]

My question for this episode is how big as that statue that sits in the harbor of that huge Soldier?  How did they make such a thing with their primitive technology?

 

It's based on artists' renditions of the Colossus of Rhodes, which most archaeologists accept as BS (the artist renditions, not the statue itself). This picture is the most common rendition, and it's largely a case of artists aren't engineers. 

 

While there really was a giant bronze statue, there's zero chance that it was 1,000 feet high and straddled a channel like that, because of, you know, physics. It's probably best to file it in the same category as a 700-foot wall (which, the story goes, GRRM himself realized was waaaay too big when he went on vacation and saw how high a 200-foot cliff actually was).

Edited May 12, 2014 by Independent George

[terrymct]

I'm still finding it hard to understand why Littlefinger dropped the necklace into the boat with Dontas' corpse for the Lannisters to find.   It clearly points the finger at Sansa, someone who he seems to really want to protect for whatever squicky reason.   Toss that necklace a few feet further out and there's a lot more mystery.

[Isazouzi]

Tywin accepted Jaime's offer so quickly, and was so prepared with his terms, that I can't help but think this whole thing has been a setup to accomplish just that end.

 

Tywin is truly magnificent. He doesn't believe Tyrion's guilty, yet he's found a way to get rid of him and get Jaimie back as his rightful heir. I knew the Wall was a possibility, even for a King's Slayer!

 

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

 

I was surprised to see Shae, but even more surprised that she was still so mad at Tyrion. As much as I'd like Bronn to be loyal to Tyrion, he's a sell-sword and Tyrion is in no position to pay him anymore... So trial by combat. Before reading this thread, I had forgotten he could pick someone as his champion and was all "who is he going to fight?" Even if he picks Jaimie, victory is not a given. He's been training with Bronn, but still. Or maybe he'll pick Jaimie and Tywin will pick Bronn, as a final Fuck You to Tyrion.

 

I didn't see it mentioned by anyone so maybe I've missed something but how the hell did they get the necklace back?! I thought last time we'd seen it was when LF threw it back in Ser Davos' boat after killing him. Did he send the boat back to shore for some of his goons to get it back and give to Pycelle for the trial? (Oops, terrymct beat me to it!)

 

So much happens in an hour, I feel like Theon and Dany were in another episode altogether.

 

I won't cast stones at Dany, because I was all for crucifying the masters as well. We're a bit impulsive that way! But I like how it's coming back to bite her in the ass. She really didn't listen to Daario's lesson about knowing the place you wish to conquer or she would have known that all the masters weren't in agreement. Her story illustrates pretty well how revolutions replace one ruling class by another similar ruling class. She sees herself as benevolent and feels her ruthlessness is justified by the ruthlessness of those she overturned. She still has a lot to learn.

 

That Iron Bank dude, that was Mycroft from Sherlock, right?

Edited May 12, 2014 by Isazouzi

[KurlyGrl]

So, next week, do we get that whole ONLY – TWO – EPISODES – LEFT!!  bit at the end of the episode??

[AimingforYoko]

So, next week, do we get that whole ONLY – TWO – EPISODES – LEFT!!  bit at the end of the episode??

No, because there will be three.

[Constantinople]

So only Shae (accusing him of conspiring with Sansa) and Cersei (denying that she forced her brave son out of the battle on the Blackwater) were actually making shit up, otherwise they were all purely throwing Tyrion's own words back out of context. Except for Pycelle, who can only conjecture since his stores were raided behind his back, but he showed great courage in defending the nobility of His Grace King Joffrey, the dearly departed.

I think Pycelle was lying. At least his story didn't make any sense.

This is the first we've heard of Pycelle's medicine/poison pantry being raided.

If Pycelle's pantry was raided when he was imprisoned, the logical time to have reported it would have either been to Cersei after Pycelle was released, or, after the Battle of Blackwater, when Tyrion was unconscious and Tywin became Hand of the King again.

If Pycelle just recently noticed the theft, then he's obviously so out to lunch that his testimony is not be relied upon. But we've seen Pycelle isn't the doddering old fool he uses as cover.

Therefore, I think Pycelle lied about the theft, or least, the timing of it.

To put it another way, if what Pycelle said was true, then his negligence led directly to the death of King Joffrey, and he should be punished accordingly.

 

Bronn didn't necessarily lie to Tyrion.  He put Shae on the ship and watched it pull out of the harbor.  It could have been intercepted anytime after that.

I agree that we don't know if Bronn lied to Tyrion about Shae or told the truth.

We don't know if Bronn put Shae on the ship and watched it pull out of the harbor. We only know that's what Bronn told Tyrion. We also know that the powers that be haven't permitted Tyrion to speak to Bronn during Tyrion's imprisonment. Nor did Shae explain how she came to be in Lannister custody. We also know -- possible metaphorical foreshadowing -- that both Bronn & Shae are sellswords of sorts.

[Laura527]

I'm wondering if Tyrion is going to fight for himself or name a champion (or are the rules different here than they were in the Eyrie?). If he names a champion, Jaime would be an interesting choice, ramping up the Lannister family dysfunction to nuclear levels.  But personally I would love for it to be Brienne - would be great to see her kick some ass!  (I say this thinking she would win and save Tyrion.  I know this show is fearless on killing off major characters, but Tyrion - as played by the awesome Peter Dinklage - would be just too much)

[Mz Anthrope]

Am I the only one to think the entire "rescuing Theon" was a waste of time and simply filler?   She spent all that time to just hack away at a few people then run off realizing her brother was 'dead'.  I am sure it's going to lead somewhere with Reek having to play the role of Theon, but to me, the whole thing was really poorly done.

 

I really liked the Iron Bank scene and Davos was fantastic :-)   Stannis seemed very willing to give up quickly. 

 

Scenes with Dany usually get an eye roll and an inner "NEXT!", but I liked the son's stand regarding his father.  He stood very tall and firm.  Very nicely done.  She seems to me like an Emo trying to be loved.  She really doesn't have what it takes to rule if she isn't going to listen to wiser heads than her own.

 

I wonder how much Pycell is doing this to get into Cersi's good graces.  Wasn't it he she was chastising at Joffrey's wedding for trying to feel up some chick?  I loved her speech to him about how he repulses her.  I wonder if he's seeing this as his way (if I am remembering correctly) to get back into her good graces.  And perhaps LF paid him for the poison. 

 

Having a major heart-on for Oberyn.   He's beautifully played.  I hope he's with us for some time. 

 

Again, more with the gratuitous chicks' tits and ass, yet nothing for us ladies (who enjoy seeing men) to enjoy.   Enough already.  We get it - you *can* show it, so you do it liberally. 

[Holmbo]

Tyrion sure could have used Bran's YouTube clip powers last night.

At first I thought you mend the ability to have really short scenes so that the trial would be shorter? :)

But you mean seeing the future?

[Lady S.]

I'm also noticing some lapses (as I see them) in characterization.  Tywin's endorsement of Tyrion's guilt has always struck me as weird--really, would Tywin be so eager to put Lannister dignity on trial?  Wouldn't he set up some poor sap, put HIM to trial, and punish Tyrion (if indeed he believes Tyron actually killed Joffrey) privately?  It seems off to me.  Tyrion certainly has a point when he says he's on trial for being a dwarf but at the end of season 1, Tywin seemed to recognize Tyrion's brains and surely someone as smart as he is would recognize that the real hero of Blackwater Bay is Tyrion.  I just don't get why he's all "hang him high" now.

I get what you mean about Lannister dignity-the main reason I think Tywin didn't know about the Purple Wedding is because I don't believe he'd ever intentionally allow such an undignified spectacle-but how could he sufficiently punish Tyrion privately? He's wanted Tyrion dead since the day he was born, we know he wouldn't allow himself to kill Tyrion then, so surely if only giving the order to intentionally arrange Tyrion's death illegally (rather than sending him into battle where he may or may not die) was appealing to Tywin's sensiblities than he probably would have already done so with baby Tyrion. And Tywin's irrationality when it comes to Tyrion gets really underestimated, just because he is generally smarter than Cersei. He was fine making use of Tyrion when he was the only son available but he also tells him in that same scene that he always thought Tyrion was just a stunted fool, and I very much doubt that pointing out they couldn't make peace with the North was the first smart thing Tyrion ever said in front of his father. Then after Tyrion does the job as well as he could, we have "I sent you here to advise the king. I gave you real power and authority. You chose to spend your days as you always have, bedding harlots and drinking with thieves. .... You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." Hero of the Blackwater means shit if you disobey Daddy about sleeping with whores. So instead Tyrion gets a forced marriage doomed to shared misery and stays on the small council in an even more thankless job, while one-handed and completely uncooperative Jaime and fucking Joffrey get fancy Valryian steel swords. The combination of Tyrion's whoring, dwarfism, and mother-killing will always overrule his intelligence for Tywin. Getting Tyrion sent to the Wall and manipulating Jaime into taking his proper place at Casterly Rock must seem like a fair bargain.

 

Interesting that Tommen calls Tywin Protector of the Realm, and then Tywin calls Cersei Queen Regent. I'd think the Protector of the Realm would always be either the King or his Regent. Guessing Tywin is just being polite to Cersei, waiting till she gets re-married and shipped off to Highgarden to have himself declared Tommen's Regent. Nice to know Cersei didn't kill Lancel when she made his war wound worse.

 

I've never believed that Ned Stark was stupid.  But for Varys to do anything other than what he did... that would have been terminally stupid.

Yeah, we all call the Starks naive but thinking Varys would be loyal to Tyrion just because he was a more effective Hand than Ned? After he told Tyrion when warning him to get rid of Shae that he'd help Tywin and Cersei if it came to it? Sweet summer children.

 

I don't recall that Bronn forced Jaime to help Tyrion. I thought Bronn just told Jaime that if he wants to know how Tyrion is doing, he can go visit Tyrion himself.

Does the Strangler have any medicinal purpose? If not, why did Pycelle have it in his possession?

Okay, he just gave him a guilt trip. But unless Cersei paid him to goldenslap Jaime, I took it to mean he cared about Tyrion.

A more painful way to euthanize children during a siege? All I know is Stannis's late Maester had poison that used in a murder/suicide attempt on Melisandre. I'm assuming the scientific purpose is knowing how to mix an antidote to any poison even if that's never necessary. Obviously Pycelle was either lying about his stores being raided or is very incompetent (either is possible imo, he exaggerates his doddering but the man has never shown much real aptitude as a small council member, just as a Lannister lickspittle who the Lannisters don't even like), I just wanted to bring up his compliment to good King Joffrey.

 

I'm still finding it hard to understand why Littlefinger dropped the necklace into the boat with Dontas' corpse for the Lannisters to find. It clearly points the finger at Sansa, someone who he seems to really want to protect for whatever squicky reason. Toss that necklace a few feet further out and there's a lot more mystery.

The only reason she needs protection is because Littlefinger implicated her in Joffrey's murder. Why give her the necklace through Dontos to begin with? Tricking her parents into a conflict with the Lannisters then getting her father arrested was already the opposite of protecting her, but making her an accessory to regicide for no practical reason really doesn't help. Whatever his long term political plans are for her, making her totally dependent on him and afraid to reveal her identity to anyone else does have an advantage for Uncle Creepy.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Lady S.

[LittleIggy]

I must have missed the Bank agreeing to help Stannis. When did that happen? Did they give him a toaster (will anyone get that reference)?

I've always hated Shae. What a bitch.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Oberyn may be a prince, but he's the King of Throwing Shade.

 

Right? Oh my God, I love that man. Him remaining seated when Tywin entered the council chamber was classic. And his amused and pitying reaction to the other dude's smug look at being asked to fetch quill and paper for Tywin? Hee! I keep imagining a thought bubble over Oberyn's head saying "I'm surrounded by idiots" (a la Scar, in Lion King). These people are just so fucking PETTY; they put such high value on crap that doesn't matter at all. His little chat with Varys was very interesting. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Oberyn has no concept of an asexual person. Heh.

 

Nice of Jaime to fall into Tywin's plans so nicely. But it was offered selflessly, so I'll give him credit.

 

I was cheering Tyrion's rant against the King's Landing folk. I get that the people called to be witnesses might have to fake loyalty to Joffrey, but I find it utterly staggering that there were actually people in the room who were basically booing and hissing at Tyrion when he was brought in. Like, really? Y'all miss Joffrey? Seriously? Fuck off.

 

I'm so glad that Tyrion didn't plead guilty and instead just shot daggers of truth at everyone. That shit was awesome.

 

I noticed that Jaime looked a little scared when Cersei said her piece on the witness stand. Did he know that she was lying? I can't recall the actual events surrounding Tyrion's threat to her. But I got the distinct sense that Jaime was all "wait a minute...that's not right. Oh shit, she's totally fucking lying so that Tyrion will be executed!" With any luck, he will be able to withstand the siren pull of Cersei's lady garden now that he knows what a spiteful, hate-filled, vindictive little viper she is.

 

Dany? Suck it, girl. I'm so glad that her decision to crucify all the masters without bothering to identify who had actually made the decision to kill and display the slave children bit her on the ass. Not so black and white, is it honey?

[halgia]

I must have missed the Bank agreeing to help Stannis. When did that happen?

We didn't see it on screen, but since we cut from Davos's little speech to him throwing a pile of money at Sallador, it must have happened in between. :)

[Lady S.]

I noticed that Jaime looked a little scared when Cersei said her piece on the witness stand. Did he know that she was lying? I can't recall the actual events surrounding Tyrion's threat to her. But I got the distinct sense that Jaime was all "wait a minute...that's not right. Oh shit, she's totally fucking lying so that Tyrion will be executed!" With any luck, he will be able to withstand the siren pull of Cersei's lady garden now that he knows what a spiteful, hate-filled, vindictive little viper she is.

They really have included it in the previouslies, here, re-watch, it was good stuff. I worry it was undercut by the less hate-filled scenes in the latter half of s3.

[LittleIggy]

We didn't see it on screen, but since we cut from Davos's little speech to him throwing a pile of money at Sallador, it must have happened in between. :)

Thanks! I wasn't paying attention then due to cats needing food! They can be as demanding as Lannisters!

[Patssy Stoned]

I have a question about dialogue: 

Is Dany speaking a real language when the translation appears on the screen or is she making it up as she goes along?

[Isazouzi]

I have a question about dialogue: 

Is Dany speaking a real language when the translation appears on the screen or is she making it up as she goes along?

 

Do you mean the character or the actress? Dany is speaking High Valyrian, which is a real language on the show but not in real life. I've read about the linguist whose job it was to invent the various made-up languages (Dothraki, Valyrian) with a real grammar and everything, and how he thought the actors were doing a terrific job, even if they tend to omit a word or two sometimes.

[Constantinople]

My question for this episode is how big as that statue that sits in the harbor of that huge Soldier?  How did they make such a thing with their primitive technology?

Follow-up questions upon second viewing

1. Is the sword in its right hand supposed to be broken?

2. Is it anatomically correct?

[WalterWhiteWalker]

One of the reviews of the episode said "You KNOW everyone who sails under that for the first time looks up."

Edited May 13, 2014 by WalterWhiteWalker

[Tryangle]

Do you mean the character or the actress? Dany is speaking High Valyrian, which is a real language on the show but not in real life. I've read about the linguist whose job it was to invent the various made-up languages (Dothraki, Valyrian) with a real grammar and everything, and how he thought the actors were doing a terrific job, even if they tend to omit a word or two sometimes.

 

... and on top of that, we're seeing the other people in Essos speak their own languages (like the goat herder). Fascinating stuff.

[Patssy Stoned]

Do you mean the character or the actress? Dany is speaking High Valyrian, which is a real language on the show but not in real life. I've read about the linguist whose job it was to invent the various made-up languages (Dothraki, Valyrian) with a real grammar and everything, and how he thought the actors were doing a terrific job, even if they tend to omit a word or two sometimes.

 

 

Thank you!  

 

I'm really impressed by the show--it could have gone so horribly wrong with the acting, dialogues and DRAGONS!!!  I can envision "Where are my DRAGONS" could have been a SNL staple!  Instead it is witty even tho it's FANTASY, while I'm watching I totally believe everything.

[DrSpaceman]

The made up languages sound completely real.

[Isazouzi]

Funny coincidence, I just read another article about the linguist for the show, David J. Peterson. Apparently, he included a reference to Monty Python's Holy Grail in the 3rd episode "Breaker of Chains", that only those who understand Valyrian could catch (and those fans do exist, just like the LOTR fans who speak elfic or the Star Trek fans who speak Klingon)  The champion yelled "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries" but Missandei didn't translate it like that in English, which is why we ordinary viewers didn't get it.

[Independent George]

I was hoping for a 'Romanes Eunt Domus' reference with the 'kill the masters' graffiti.

[TooMuchCoffee]

 When Jaime lost his hand, my closed captioning translated his "Aaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!" scream as "It's only a flesh wound".

[ihartcoffee]

Yara and Theon.  Yes, everyone agrees that Yara should have had someone knock Theon out and escape with him.  But I also think she was too damned stunned by Theon’s state of being to even have had time to consider it.  I am sure she was all prepared for Theon to be all “thank you, sister, let’s go RIGHT NOW” and instead she saw a completely mind fucked man.  By the time that fact sunk in, it was too late as everyone had started fighting.  She knows now that Theon is a lost cause, and therefore he is “dead”.  But big ups to her for at least trying to rescue him when everyone else had written him off. 

 

Ramsey and Theon.  I mean, really, how does Ramsey think he can makke Theon pretend to be Theon again.  Theon’s mind is completely gone.  So, what?  Now Theon is supposed to act like a normal guy who just happens to be held hostage and will now be used as a bargaining chip again.  Alfie’s acting tonight was superb. 

 

Shae and Tyrion. That !@&%$#  Shae!!!  I am so mad at her!!  That was the worst betrayal of them all.  And there were plenty that night.  The look on Tyrion’s face when she was spewing those lies broke my heart.  I know someone (Cersei??) put her up to it.  On the threat of death, I’m sure.  So, I know she had no choice.  But I felt the pain as acutely as Tyrion.  That was horrible to witness.  Especially as the entire audience was cracking up during her testimony.  Poor Tyrion.  His final speech is the stuff of legend. 

 

Tywin and Tyrion.  Tywin KNOWS Tyrion is not guilty.  He KNOWS this!  Well, maybe he doesn’t really KNOW, but he knows. Know what I mean.  I have to shake my head.  How fucked up is this entire mockery of a trial.  Like Tyrion said, he will get no justice here. 

 

Jamie and Tyrion.  Can I say how much I loved Jaime for sticking up for Tyrion.  The only one in the entire freaking kingdom to even try.  Look what he’s offering to give up to help his brother.  Everything.  Including his serpent slithering through the grass sister. 

 

And the Emmy goes to - - - -   Peter Dinklage!!

I so agree with your post. Shae was most likely threatened into testifying. It was still painful to watch. I love when he goes off, watching it right now.

[ToniG]

When Jaime lost his hand, my closed captioning translated his "Aaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!" scream as "It's only a flesh wound".

I love this.

[Colored Francie]

 

He's [Tywin] wanted Tyrion dead since the day he was born, we know he wouldn't allow himself to kill Tyrion then, so surely if only giving the order to intentionally arrange Tyrion's death illegally (rather than sending him into battle where he may or may not die) was appealing to Tywin's sensiblities than he probably would have already done so with baby Tyrion. And Tywin's irrationality when it comes to Tyrion gets really underestimated, just because he is generally smarter than Cersei. He was fine making use of Tyrion when he was the only son available but he also tells him in that same scene that he always thought Tyrion was just a stunted fool, and I very much doubt that pointing out they couldn't make peace with the North was the first smart thing Tyrion ever said in front of his father. Then after Tyrion does the job as well as he could, we have "I sent you here to advise the king. I gave you real power and authority. You chose to spend your days as you always have, bedding harlots and drinking with thieves. .... You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." Hero of the Blackwater means shit if you disobey Daddy about sleeping with whores. So instead Tyrion gets a forced marriage doomed to shared misery and stays on the small council in an even more thankless job, while one-handed and completely uncooperative Jaime and fucking Joffrey get fancy Valryian steel swords. The combination of Tyrion's whoring, dwarfism, and mother-killing will always overrule his intelligence for Tywin. Getting Tyrion sent to the Wall and manipulating Jaime into taking his proper place at Casterly Rock must seem like a fair bargain. - Lady S.

This assessment is just fantastic. You're absolutely right - for all of the description (and praise) of Tywin as this cold bastard, he actually burns quite hot when it comes to Tyrion. I also thought it was farfetched that Tywin could have missed Tyrion's intelligence all these years. And there's no way he didn't know how great a job Tyrion did as the Master of the Pipes and Sewage or something in Casterly Rock that he described to Varys in season 2.

 

I got the sense that Cersei knew something was up when she saw the exchange between Jaime and Tyrion. I'm sure she was ready to whip out her Plan B of just getting him killed in his cell.

 

I'm also realizing now, that Tyrion must have thought he had SOME sort of fair shot at this trial. If he didn't, wouldn't he have just called for a trial-by-combat at the outset?

[Conan Troutman]

But then we wouldn't have gotten this beautiful farce of a trial. One can call it lazy writing, but as long as we get amazing scenes like that, Martin/B&W can write as lazy as they want.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Shae was most likely threatened into testifying.

 

I'm not so sure. She volunteered very personal details, which no one else could have known about (and thus forced her to say). Also, considering that she was too fucking stupid to figure out that she was being sent to Essos to save her life rather than being rejected by Tyrion, I think she was just pissed off and wanted her pound of flesh. At no point, even when she was just looking at Tyrion, was there any flutter of conflict on her face or sense of apology. So, I'd say she was either a great actress or she was Exhibit A of 'woman scorned'.

 

 

I'm also realizing now, that Tyrion must have thought he had SOME sort of fair shot at this trial. If he didn't, wouldn't he have just called for a trial-by-combat at the outset?

 

At a guess, I'd say he was curious. I mean, if you always have the option of calling for a trial-by-combat, why not test the waters and see whether your family would give you a fair shake or totally sabotage you? I'm glad that he opted for the trial because I think this will completely remove any shred of familial loyalty he may have clung to.

 

I think the Lannisters (minus Jaime) are essentially dead to him now; as they should be, IMO. Family who are willing to use you to obtain their own goals and/or are actively rooting for your death are not people you need in your life.

Edited May 15, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Independent George]

RE: Yara knocking out Theon - am I out of line for thinking, "No, because any blow strong enough to knock him unconscious would also likely result in a fractured skull and traumatic brain injury."?

I'm just never sure what tropes are in play, and what aren't. The Hound knocked Arya out with a tap on the head, but then he also talked about how important armor was just as Ramsay waded in and out of a pitched battle untouched while shirtless.

[anuhealani]

I'm not so sure. She volunteered very personal details, which no one else could have known about (and thus forced her to say). Also, considering that she was too fucking stupid to figure out that she was being sent to Essos to save her life rather than being rejected by Tyrion, I think she was just pissed off and wanted her pound of flesh. At no point, even when she was just looking at Tyrion, was there any flutter of conflict on her face or sense of apology. So, I'd say she was either a great actress or she was Exhibit A of 'woman scorned'.

Only problem is, the whole "woman scorned" thing isn't actually a thing in mentally sound women in real life, so if that's their intent, and they intend to write "real people" (as the writers so often boast), the character of Shae is a miserable failure.

 

It's possible to be both coerced and vindictive (because she obviously loved Tyrion and feels hurt by him), but let's recognize that there's a whole world of reasonable reaction between "I love you forever!" and "I will stop at nothing to see you murdered."

Edited May 15, 2014 by anuhealani

[Meredith Quill]

I think she was taken and 'coached' by Cersei with regard to the actual lies she told, but had no problem in doing it, hence throwing in the non essential but humiliating & cruel intimate details. There wasn't even a micro expression of conflicting emotions on her face at any point, even when her face was turned away from Cersei & co toward Tyrion. If she felt any remorse for her actions, her face would have revealed it, micro expressions are not controllable, we aren't even aware we're making them. I don't believe she volunteered for the job but it wasn't entirely against her will either.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Only problem is, the whole "woman scorned" thing isn't actually a thing in mentally sound women in real life

 

Who said she was mentally sound? :)

 

She's a whore who takes offense at being called one, she gave Tyrion shit about a marriage he had no say or interest in, she behaved jealously even though she knew Tyrion and Sansa weren't having sex, and she believed Tyrion's nonsense reasons for shipping her off but not the truth (my family will kill you), and she flew into a rage at having the bare facts of their reality pointed out.

 

 

It's possible to be both coerced and vindictive (because she obviously loved Tyrion and feels hurt by him), but let's recognize that there's a whole world of reasonable reaction between "I love you forever!" and "I will stop at nothing to see you murdered."

 

I agree, which is why her behaviour and testimony read to me as someone out for blood/payback.

 

An "I love you forever" would have been "I won't testify; you'll have to kill me".

 

"I will stop at nothing to see you murdered", IMO, was what we got (passionate testimony, no facial expressions indicating conflict, extraneous humiliating details).

 

Middle ground would have been reciting the lies she's required to say without adding the additional hurtful/humiliating tidbits and/or expressing some regret/dismay/conflict at sending Tyrion to his death.

Edited May 15, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[KurlyGrl]

 

There wasn't even a micro expression of conflicting emotions on her face at any point, even when her face was turned away from Cersei & co toward Tyrion. If she felt any remorse for her actions, her face would have revealed it, micro expressions are not controllable, we aren't even aware we're making them.

 

But see, with all due respect, here I think you are ascribing real life conditions to a woman who is playing a role.  If this were a REAL trial, like on the news or something, like Oscar Pistorius, or Amanda Knox, then body language experts could be all over it, evaluating every tick, twitch or eye movement.  But I wouldn’t expect to see micro expressions here.  But I do agree her face showed NO emotion at all.  Which to me means she meant it.  She was coerced by someone, sure, but she just had to add a bit of her own flavor for good measure, to twist the knife, because she was hurt.

 

 

She's a whore who takes offense at being called one, she gave Tyrion shit about a marriage he had no say or interest in, she behaved jealously even though she knew Tyrion and Sansa weren't having sex, and she believed Tyrion's nonsense reasons for shipping her off but not the truth (my family will kill you).

 

I have said the same thing about Shae since the beginning.  I never knew why she felt so entitled when she knew she would never have a chance in hell of making their relationship in any way legitimate.  And now she’s hurt because it’s over.  Yes, Tyrion dissed her, and we all know he didn’t mean it, but she is too stupid to see it for what it is.  She should have taken his offer of moving away long ago.  But then if she had, we wouldn’t have had this courtroom drama to chat over.  LOL!!

[Meredith Quill]

But see, with all due respect, here I think you are ascribing real life conditions to a woman who is playing a role.  If this were a REAL trial, like on the news or something, like Oscar Pistorius, or Amanda Knox, then body language experts could be all over it, evaluating every tick, twitch or eye movement.  But I wouldn’t expect to see micro expressions here.  But I do agree her face showed NO emotion at all.  Which to me means she meant it.  She was coerced by someone, sure, but she just had to add a bit of her own flavor for good measure, to twist the knife, because she was hurt.

 

I suppose it all depends on your POV, personally, I think if the show wanted to indicate even vaguely that she was fully coerced they would have directed her to portray some flicker of conflict on her face.

Anyway, we agree in conclusion; it was a mixture of both.

[anuhealani]

Who said she was mentally sound? :)

 

She's a whore who takes offense at being called one, she gave Tyrion shit about a marriage he had no say or interest in, she behaved jealously even though she knew Tyrion and Sansa weren't having sex, and she believed Tyrion's nonsense reasons for shipping her off but not the truth (my family will kill you), and she flew into a rage at having the bare facts of their reality pointed out.

 

 

I agree, which is why her behaviour and testimony read to me as someone out for blood/payback.

 

An "I love you forever" would have been "I won't testify; you'll have to kill me".

 

"I will stop at nothing to see you murdered", IMO, was what we got (passionate testimony, no facial expressions indicating conflict, extraneous humiliating details).

 

Middle ground would have been reciting the lies she's required to say without adding the additional hurtful/humiliating tidbits and/or expressing some regret/dismay/conflict at sending Tyrion to his death.

Why shouldn't she take offense to being called a whore? This is a man who claimed to be in love with her. Her jealousy is understandable—Tyrion had many opportunities to leave Westeros to start a life with her, and continually chose scheming and his new wife over the woman he claimed to love. Jealousy != insanity, though the people who like to throw around gendered insults like "crazy bitch" might like to think otherwise. And it certainly doesn't drive the vast majority of people who feel it to murder.

 

Your reading of her behavior was the polar opposite of mine. When she entered the room and began to testify, her eyes were fixed on the floor or darting around the room. Her testimony was given in a flat monotone indicative of scripting/recitation. Only when Tyrion begged her to stop did she show real anger or sadness, and again, it's possible for someone to feel those emotions and take satisfaction in someone else's pain without wanting them to be subjected to some horrific fate. The whole "I took his face in my hands and said 'I am yours and you are mine'" was a reminder to him that they had made a promise to each other.

 

The most logical conclusion to draw based on her actual demeanor is that she was in fact coached (likely because she or Tyrion was threatened with death if she did otherwise). If she didn't love him, she wouldn't feel the anger/sadness she projects in the latter part of her testimony, so that's not a possibility.

 

As for your comment An "I love you forever" would have been "I won't testify; you'll have to kill me", all I really have to say about that is this: Get into that situation yourself and then get back to me on whether you would sacrifice your life. Particularly given that it's at least a strong possibility she was told that Tyrion would have the chance to take the black if she testified against him.

 

- Edited to add that there's a reaction shot of her wearing a very clear expression of fear when he demands a trial by combat, i.e. a look of "That's not what was supposed to happen."

Edited May 15, 2014 by anuhealani

[NoWillToResist]

 

Why shouldn't she take offense to being called a whore?

 

Because it's illogical if that's your job? Granted, TONE can mean a lot, but still. She is literally a whore. It's not a judgement...it's her job. Wait...it was her job, right? I always had that impression. If she wasn't, then a million apologies to the character, but I thought she was?

 

Anyway, I suspect we will be given more information about her testimony against Tyrion.

 

I used the 'you'll have to kill me first' merely as the other extreme of "rot in hell, you bastard". :)

 

 

Her jealousy is understandable—Tyrion had many opportunities to leave Westeros to start a life with her, and continually chose scheming and his new wife over the woman he claimed to love.

 

But he gave HER many choices (and sometimes pleas!) to leave as well and she turned them down. I don't recall him making her any promises about running away together, but I may be misremembering.

 

 

The whole "I took his face in my hands and said 'I am yours and you are mine'" was a reminder to him that they had made a promise to each other.

 

I took those words from Tyrion as proof that she wasn't just a whore to him. He does care about her (or love her, whichever), but the facts of their circumstances can't be changed; they never could. He's a nobleman and she's a whore; it's not like they could ever marry unless he turned his back on his family and everything he knew. Her BEST case scenario was being a mistress and maybe the involved parties would have been on board with that.

 

But once her life was in danger, things changed. It blows my mind that after everything they'd been through and after he was warning her to be careful, she suddenly lost her earlier intelligence and was totally unsubtle and irrational. And then, even though she knows that he's scared for her life, she dismisses the threat and then can't figure out why he said terrible things to get her to leave? Did Pycelle slip her some Essence of Stupid?

Edited May 15, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[LilWharveyGal]

Did Pycelle slip her some Essence of Stupid?

 

He would have, but Tyrion stole it from his medicine cabinet.

[NoWillToResist]

 

He would have, but Tyrion stole it from his medicine cabinet.

 

Nah. I think Tyrion drank the "Zero Fucks Left To Give" potion. ;)

[Constantinople]

I don't know if this explains much about Shae's motivation, but I think it was in Season 3 when Tyrion said he'd buy Shae a house in the city, provide for any children they have, etc.  Shae turned it down, in part, because she didn't want any children who'd be killed by their grandfather if their existence was discovered.

 

Then, in the Die Joffrey Episode this season, Tyrion says Shae isn't fit to bear his children before having Bronn physically escort her from the premises.