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S11.E16: The Neonatal Nomenclature


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(edited)
5 hours ago, wendyg said:

Re the names of the characters: as @roamyn says Rajesh is a very common Indian name. Penny and Howard are pretty common, too. Sheldon and Leonard were very specifically named for the great TV producer (THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW and many others) Sheldon Leonard. Neither name is all that unusual, but in any case it's an homage. I've also known at least one Bernadette IRL. I actually love the richness of the names on this show. Except for Penny's unknown last name, which I've decided personally is "Moss" because I knew some people by that last name in Nebraska.

I've known one Howard, one Leonard, and one Amy. Never met a Bernadette, Penny, Sheldon, or Raj. Rajesh may be common in India but it's not in the US.

By contrast, I can't take a step without tripping over several Mikes, Jims, Steves, Roberts, Nicks, Johns, Richards, and Toms. That's what I mean by common. You can add Bill to that list too. 

Edited by Gothish520
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6 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

 

14 hours ago, Driad said:

Have they ever had a plot in which Bernadette and Sheldon needed to cooperate and agree on something?  Might be interesting.

There was a sweet episode where the rest of the gang went on a wine tasting trip and Sheldon and Bernadette stayed home because she was pregnant with Hallie and he wasn't interested in wine tasting.  They seemed to have a nice evening together and it allowed Sheldon to do something for someone else where it wasn't benefiting him.  Anyway to they have shown the two of them together at least once.

Thank you, BlossomCulp, that was a fun scene.  But I would still like to see a situation in which Bernadette and Sheldon need to stop being bullies for a while to accomplish something they both want.

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6 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Bernadette has been through two pregnancies now and the last one was particularly difficult, the least Howard could do was not negate the one name Bernadette wanted and throw out last minute names that he didn't even care enough about to have mentioned for 9 months!

Not to mention he must spend a lot of time when Bernie is in labour and delivering - and having stitches - coming up with reasons why he wants the name Neil - which was suddenly a big deal but hadn't come up in the preceding 9 months.  Honestly if I'd been Bernadette I wouldn't have given in about the name Michael either.  Just deal with it Howard.

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(edited)

The whole name thing felt forced to me. They had nine months time to discuss this and with Bernadette being on bed rest for so long there was even some enforced extra leisure. I refuse to take sides. But I really appreciated the drama-free birth.

I enjoyed Sheldon's enthusiasm for Risk-on-steroids (and yeah, I took it as a callback to the episode mentioned above when he had devised a special pregnancy version of D&D for Bernadette). But my favorite scene was Howard and Amy in the lab - I love that the show hasn't dropped their collaboration and Howard handing in the schematics for a flux capacitor for the hydraulic manifold was a great throw-away joke.

(On a side-note: Mom is great, hopefully Janney's Oscar buzz brings more viewers to the show.)

Edited by MissLucas
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5 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

But I really appreciated the drama-free birth.

Definitely.  I'd say of all of this season's episodes this was my least favourite but I really did like that the whole gang was not at the hospital (I mean only on sitcoms does this ever happen) and they didn't do anything really dumb like having her give birth in an elevator which I am sure does happen but not as often as it happens on TV!

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On 3/2/2018 at 6:41 AM, shapeshifter said:

However, an equally big pet peeve of mine regarding late pregnancies on TV is the mother vociferously complaining about how she just wants to get the baby out of her. Am I really so different from most women who have given birth? Even though all three were a week "overdue," I was never in a hurry to get to the labor and postpartum pain part. And never did I have everything ready. My water broke with the first as I was sitting at a sewing machine finishing up a baby quilt--which did not get completed for another six months.

You are not alone.  I liked being pregnant.  First one was a week late and I was fine with it.  Second one was on her due date.  Last one was almost two weeks late and, for the last few days, I was ready for the birth, but not so bad that I was trying out old wives' tales or eating at the restaurant whose pizza is supposed to make you go into labor.  I did get a strong nesting instinct, so I would have been ready for all of them even if they had been a few weeks early.  

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The worst part for me was the way you start thinking two weeks before your due date that "any time time now" and then you go two weeks late, so "any time now" becomes a month!  But unlike Bernadette I was never on bed rest.  I can totally see someone being in that situation being more than ready to get the whole thing over with!

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10 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I've known one Howard, one Leonard, and one Amy. Never met a Bernadette, Penny, Sheldon, or Raj. Rajesh may be common in India but it's not in the US.

By contrast, I can't take a step without tripping over several Mikes, Jims, Steves, Roberts, Nicks, Johns, Richards, and Toms. That's what I mean by common. You can add Bill to that list too. 

At the playground, my son and I meet dozens of boys named Alexander, Jake, Jason, Jack, and Ryan. And dozens of girls named Olivia, Sophia, Sophie, Isabelle, Isabella, Emma, and Kate. 

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Nearly every woman I know, many who weren't even overdue wanted their pregnancy to end if only to meet their child. However, it makes even mpre sense for someone like Bernadette who has been on bedrest for a large part of her pregnancy it would be weird if she wasn't eager for it to end. Hell it's actually weird given her health issues that her doctors didn't induce her.

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22 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I've known one Howard, one Leonard, and one Amy. Never met a Bernadette, Penny, Sheldon, or Raj. Rajesh may be common in India but it's not in the US.

By contrast, I can't take a step without tripping over several Mikes, Jims, Steves, Roberts, Nicks, Johns, Richards, and Toms. That's what I mean by common. You can add Bill to that list too. 

Haha, I was going over my department at work and, aside from one Tom, we don't have any of those names.  We have Bret, Howard, Ed, Don, 2 Chris's, Jeff, Doug, Andy, Dylan, Kevin, Brian, Tony and Trevor.  And none of those names are that uncommon either.  The influx of younger guys is giving our company a lot more Tyler, Brandon,  Brendan, Trevor, Dylan Dominick, Ryan type of names than the more traditional names of the past.

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21 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

Not to mention he must spend a lot of time when Bernie is in labour and delivering - and having stitches - coming up with reasons why he wants the name Neil - which was suddenly a big deal but hadn't come up in the preceding 9 months.  Honestly if I'd been Bernadette I wouldn't have given in about the name Michael either.  Just deal with it Howard.

Both parents should agree on the name, and any name that one parent absolutely does not want should be off the table. Once Howard made it clear that he really did not want to name their son Michael, that should've been the end of it. Bernadette wasn't acting like it was a lifelong dream of hers to name a son after her father. I love Bernie and have always been a vocal supporter, but she was being unreasonable in this instance. 

I also agree with those that said this should've been discussed and settled way before the birth. 

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1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

Both parents should agree on the name, and any name that one parent absolutely does not want should be off the table. Once Howard made it clear that he really did not want to name their son Michael, that should've been the end of it. Bernadette wasn't acting like it was a lifelong dream of hers to name a son after her father.

Bernadette's a bully. She never even wanted children because she had to care for her siblings (isn't she one of seven or eight?). Unless they were all girls, chances are there's a Michael Jr. among them.

I'm glad Neil DeGrasse Tyson wasn't among the "Neils" they were honoring. I think he's a dick.

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2 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Bernadette's a bully. She never even wanted children because she had to care for her siblings (isn't she one of seven or eight?). Unless they were all girls, chances are there's a Michael Jr. among them.

They seem to have forgotten that Bernadette had siblings.  It's certainly never been mentioned again and AFAIK not one sibling of hers was at the wedding and really you'd think there would be at least a passing reference to why none of her siblings was in the wedding party.

 

4 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Both parents should agree on the name, and any name that one parent absolutely does not want should be off the table.

I'd agree with this in real life scenarios.  In this episode though it was stupid, so so stupid that Howard suddenly has an aversion to honouring Bernadette's father by naming the baby after him.  So so stupid.  It was contrived - partly for conflict and partly to reinforce the Bernadette is a Bully crap.

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13 minutes ago, BlossomCulp said:

They seem to have forgotten that Bernadette had siblings.  It's certainly never been mentioned again and AFAIK not one sibling of hers was at the wedding and really you'd think there would be at least a passing reference to why none of her siblings was in the wedding party.

 

I'd agree with this in real life scenarios.  In this episode though it was stupid, so so stupid that Howard suddenly has an aversion to honouring Bernadette's father by naming the baby after him.  So so stupid.  It was contrived - partly for conflict and partly to reinforce the Bernadette is a Bully crap.

One of the things I do find annoying is how sitcoms ignore family. Unless it is made clear that one does not like or get along with certain family members, then at least a passing mention of why they aren't at a big life event is in order. Where was Leonard's brother and sister at his wedding vow renewal? And where was Penny's sister? And as you said, where the heck were any of Bernadette's siblings at her wedding?

I did think that Howard and Bernadette's father had sort of developed a better relationship. But it could just be that Howard still doesn't really like how he treats him.

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On 3/1/2018 at 7:38 PM, CleoCaesar said:

Neil? I wish they'd stuck with Michael as his first name.

Not a bad episode. But are they ever going to do anything with Penny? Or Penny/Leonard? They've been so static for who knows how many episodes. Can Kaley Cuoco say more than 50 words per episode?

Right? And currently Penny is the only one not doing what she really wants career-wise. She may be making good money, but she clearly dislikes her job (and likely feels resentful). 

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A number of posts had veered the thread off topic with discussion of past episodes or speculation of future episodes and have been moved to more appropriate threads. Please keep the discussion to the events that transpired in this episode.

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On 3/3/2018 at 8:44 AM, wendyg said:

Sheldon and Leonard were very specifically named for the great TV producer (THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW and many others) Sheldon Leonard. 

I didn't know that, thanks for the information.  I've always been a huge fan of The Dick Van Dyke Show.  When people ask me what I think the greatest sitcom of all time is, I always answer The Dick Van Dyke Show.

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On 3/3/2018 at 8:44 AM, wendyg said:

Sheldon and Leonard were very specifically named for the great TV producer (THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW and many others) Sheldon Leonard. Neither name is all that unusual, but in any case it's an homage. 

I'm old so I figured that out right away.  Sheldon Leonard was also an actor and little known fact, he played the bartender "Nick" in "It's a Wonderful Life".  He also produced some other iconic TV series like "The Danny Thomas Show", "Gomer Pyle" and "The Andy Griffith Show".
 

At the playground, my son and I meet dozens of boys named Alexander, Jake, Jason, Jack, and Ryan. And dozens of girls named Olivia, Sophia, Sophie, Isabelle, Isabella, Emma, and Kate. 

Those are some of the most popular names of the past decade or so ago.  Names come in and out of fashion and none of these are new, just recycled from eras gone by (my great grandmother's name was Emma).  During the 1980s Penny came in at number 679 in popularity among female names in the US.  I know 3 Pennys but like I say I'm old and it was more popular in the past.  I just checked and it was number 206 in the 70s and 104 in the 60s.
 

On 3/4/2018 at 2:36 PM, SmithW6079 said:

I'm glad Neil DeGrasse Tyson wasn't among the "Neils" they were honoring. I think he's a dick.

Me too and I know him personally.....

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On 3/2/2018 at 12:47 PM, PinkRibbons said:

*sigh* What bugged me throughout this whole episode was that Howard never once brought up that in Ashkenazi Jewish tradition, naming a child after someone who is still alive is incredibly bad luck.

In Norway, it was the custom to name a male child with the paternal grandfather's name as first name and maternal grandfather's name as middle name.  My mother-in-law was crushed that I refused to name our son Harald Sidney.  

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On 3/2/2018 at 3:47 PM, PinkRibbons said:

*sigh* What bugged me throughout this whole episode was that Howard never once brought up that in Ashkenazi Jewish tradition, naming a child after someone who is still alive is incredibly bad luck.

Does it matter in situations like Howard and Bernadette's where they aren't bringing up the children in the Jewish faith, and don't seem to be following any of the Jewish traditions either?  If Howard isn't superstitious I can see this not being an issue for him.  Or, of course, the writers just didn't think of this and so it didn't make it into the script :).

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2 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Does it matter in situations like Howard and Bernadette's where they aren't bringing up the children in the Jewish faith, and don't seem to be following any of the Jewish traditions either?

Penny once described Howard as "kosher only on the high holidays", so he doesn't entirely ignore his religious traditions. In some families, it's the tradition to name a first-born son after his father or grandfather, to honor that person. If that's what was going on with Bernie, Howard may have been reluctant to rile her by bringing up what he knew she'd dismiss as a silly superstition.

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8 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Does it matter in situations like Howard and Bernadette's where they aren't bringing up the children in the Jewish faith, and don't seem to be following any of the Jewish traditions either?  If Howard isn't superstitious I can see this not being an issue for him.  Or, of course, the writers just didn't think of this and so it didn't make it into the script :).

Also, doesn't the Jewish faith say that the children take the religion of their mother?  If so, the kids--if they have any religion--would be raised Catholic.

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OtterMommy: Not quite. The Jewish tradition is that you are only Jewish if your mother is Jewish. I think it's because where you couldn't, pre-DNA testing, be sure who a child's father was, you knew definitely who its mother was. There's a similar mode of thinking visible in medieval tales where nephews are so important.

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On March 8, 2018 at 8:10 AM, CherryAmes said:
On March 2, 2018 at 2:47 PM, PinkRibbons said:

*sigh* What bugged me throughout this whole episode was that Howard never once brought up that in Ashkenazi Jewish tradition, naming a child after someone who is still alive is incredibly bad luck.

Does it matter in situations like Howard and Bernadette's where they aren't bringing up the children in the Jewish faith, and don't seem to be following any of the Jewish traditions either?

It wasn't until reading this discussion that I finally realized why—64 years ago!—my Jewish-in-ancestry-and-marriage-only mother was so angry that my father's sister gave her daughter the same name as mine less than a year after I was born. Mom always had some crazy superstitions, so I didn't bother to piece together where this one came from. Obviously it didn't kill me, but I guess I can blame any and all misfortune that has befallen me on my dear departed aunt, and Neil Michael can blame his mom. Oy.

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26 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

It wasn't until reading this discussion that I finally realized why—64 years ago!—my Jewish-in-ancestry-and-marriage-only mother was so angry that my father's sister gave her daughter the same name as mine less than a year after I was born. Mom always had some crazy superstitions, so I didn't bother to piece together where this one came from. Obviously it didn't kill me, but I guess I can blame any and all misfortune that has befallen me on my dear departed aunt, and Neil Michael can blame his mom. Oy.

It was also just an incredibly rude thing to do, aside from any religious aspects.

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On 3/2/2018 at 3:47 PM, PinkRibbons said:

What bugged me throughout this whole episode was that Howard never once brought up that in Ashkenazi Jewish tradition, naming a child after someone who is still alive is incredibly bad luck.

For whom is it considered bad luck?  For the child, the parents, or the person after whom the child is named?

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19 hours ago, Driad said:

For whom is it considered bad luck?  For the child, the parents, or the person after whom the child is named?

The person after whom the child is named. If you only name after the dead, it suggests that the person the child is named after is now in the Angel of Death's crosshairs. Like, The Angel sees a kid's been named and realizes they left the namesake off their list. Something like that. (Incidentally when it comes to The Angel of Death, names are quite A Thing. There's also a tradition of changing the name of a deathly ill person to try and fool The Angel.)

In my family (both sides, although I don't know how pervasive it is among the entire tribe) we also don't reuse the names of someone who died young, the thought there being it would bring the same ill fortune on the person named after them. It's why my father is named after his mother's uncle and not his mother's brother who was killed in the war.

Ashkenazi naming practices are not exactly tied to religion; it's all more strong superstition. This is why I was surprised Howard didn't bring up the issue, since it's about his culture and not his or the baby's religion.

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On 3/9/2018 at 12:08 PM, wendyg said:

The Jewish tradition is that you are only Jewish if your mother is Jewish. I think it's because where you couldn't, pre-DNA testing, be sure who a child's father was, you knew definitely who its mother was. There's a similar mode of thinking visible in medieval tales where nephews are so important.

And nowadays, with surrogacy and egg donors, you may not be able to tell who the mother is. ?

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Driad, PinkRibbons: There's a bit in Carrie Fisher's wonderful WISHFUL DRINKING about this. Her parents named her brother Todd for Mike Todd, who, with his wife Elizabeth Taylor, were their best friends. "A silly superstition," Fisher says, and pauses..."Or so we thought..." Not long after, Mike Todd was killed in a plane crash, and within a *very* short time Eddie Fisher divorced Debbie Reynolds and married Taylor.

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On 3/7/2018 at 11:07 PM, Calamity Jane said:

In Norway, it was the custom to name a male child with the paternal grandfather's name as first name and maternal grandfather's name as middle name.  My mother-in-law was crushed that I refused to name our son Harald Sidney.  

I hate traditions like that.  My in laws tried to explain to me that oldest son gets dad’s name with first and middle switched (so it matches paternal grandfather’s full name).  Apparently oldest daughter then gets paternal grandmother’s name.  I asked where my family fit in to this plan and told husband I wanted the tradition to end with us.  Luckily he had no problem agreeing.  I thought Bernadette’s unilateral decision to call the baby Michael was just as rude as these heavy handed attempts to foist a name on someone else’s baby.  I was disappointed Howard caved, but not surprised.  I saw an early episode when everyone is just meeting Bernadette; I miss that version of her.

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3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

 I was disappointed Howard caved, but not surprised.

Howard only caved because the whole argument was completely contrived.  I hate the way they just had to have an argument around the baby's birth.  Howard didn't really care at all and he had spent zero time for 9 months offering any alternatives.  So unrealistic.  Most couples have a name picked out long before the baby is born but this is twice now the Wolowitz's had to have the drah-ma over what to name baby at the 11th hour.

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What drama did they have about Halley's name? I thought they said they were waiting to see A) what the gender was and B) what the kid looked like in order to choose a name. I don't think that's drama. That's what my parents did with me actually.

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Fair enough maybe I'm remembering it wrong!  I just remember that it struck me as dumb that they never seemed to have even discussed names until she was born - or the day of the birth anyway.  I could see not deciding on a name but not even discussing it?  What if Halley had been a boy - would they then have had the Michael - not Michael fight?  Well probably not since that was just a fight for this specific episode!

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I also appreciated the realism of Howard not immediately calling the friends to let them know & telling Raj something along the lines of "hmmm, should I go meet my newborn son for the first time, or CALL RAJ?!". 

Normally I would agree, however in this particular situation, I feel like it came across as negligent parenting and being inconsiderate to your friends. You left your unseen baby, Halley, with your friends for hours and you didn't feel the need to check in on how your other daughter is doing? Not to mention, you don't thinks it is necessary to let your friends know an ETA on how much longer they have to "babysit" Halley? Even though Amy, Sheldon, Raj, Penny and Leonard apparently have nothing better to do than spend their entire weekend at Howard's house, at some point they will have to leave to take care of personal matters, go to work, etc. Finally, at this point, they are much closer to their friends then their own family members.

Another pet peeve, is how easy it is take care of babies in TV land. Really, Halley was asleep the entire time the gang was there? She didn't need to eat, have a diaper change or play? She NEVER cried? Bernie sure recovered quickly from her delivery and 8 stitches. I guess she isn't nursing, so that helps with getting sleep. I wish my babies were as easy to care for as a TV baby. 

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In regards to taking so long to call them about the baby, I find it interesting how quickly we seem to forget that up until fairly recently childbirth was a very dangerous undertaking. When my sister gave birth she texted me when she was going into the delivery room (although that was delayed because the nurses were changing their shifts) and we white-knuckled it for two hours until my brother-in-law shot off a quick text to me that mother and baby were alive and healthy. Which is really all we desperately wanted to know. We let them call us after that so they could take any needed time, but alerting us that everything was okay was not too much to ask.

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On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 11:53 AM, roamyn said:

Not me.  Sheldon made an interesting campaign sound stuffy & “board”, as hell.

If it's the game I've heard of (but never played), it really DOES take forever - as in, "set it up in a spare room and come back to it once a week for several months" type long, especially if somebody insists on playing with ALL the rules (which, let's face it, Sheldon would)!

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6 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

When my sister gave birth she texted me when she was going into the delivery room (although that was delayed because the nurses were changing their shifts) and we white-knuckled it for two hours until my brother-in-law shot off a quick text to me that mother and baby were alive and healthy.

We had the same experience when my daughter had a baby recently.  We are so used to people having instant access to their phones but at least where my daughter gave birth that was not the case.  Once they went into the delivery room - and from there ended up with an emergency C-section we were out of the loop for several hours.

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On March 22, 2018 at 9:30 PM, snuffles said:

Normally I would agree, however in this particular situation, I feel like it came across as negligent parenting and being inconsiderate to your friends. You left your unseen baby, Halley, with your friends for hours and you didn't feel the need to check in on how your other daughter is doing? Not to mention, you don't thinks it is necessary to let your friends know an ETA on how much longer they have to "babysit" Halley?

Here I am, totally agreeing with @snuffles' post^^, but then I think back to 29 years ago (BC, or "Before Cell phones" when a call from the next town with the hospital was a toll call) when my youngest was born. My older daughters (5 and 9 years old) went home from school with kids of the same age and gender as mine whose parents were kind and generous acquaintances. I guess my now-ex must have called the friends who had my other kids so they knew to take the bus home from school the next day, but maybe he just called the school. Looking back, I hope they at least had a change of socks and underwear, LOL. 

Anyway, I think the episode was supposed to show how much more casual parents are about things with babies other than the first.

And my second daughter didn't have a name until she was 3 days old. 

Edited by shapeshifter
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I have a friend who is a rabbi, and neither of her daughters had names until their baby namings, approximately 10 days after they were born.  She swears she and her husband did not call them anything other than pet names before the ceremonies.  I'm certainly not saying it's this way for Howard, who we've never seen being particularly observant, but many Jews don't decide on their children's names until the bris or the baby naming. 

I do find it hard to believe they didn't even discuss possibilities in advance, although that doesn't always work out.  When my nephew was born, the nurse came in with the birth certificate, and in her sleep-deprived state, my sister gave her a different name than she and her husband had discussed.  So instead of Douglas Allen, we ended up with Christopher Allen Douglas.  28 years later, she still can't figure out where the "Christopher" came from.

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Has there ever been any discussion on the role religion plays in the Wolowitz household?  Before the marriage Bernadette may not have been a particularly religious Catholic but she did wear a cross (for whatever that's worth).  They didn't have a religious ceremony when they got married - did they ever say is this was a bone of contention between Bernadette and her parents?  I know they will only ever have these kinds of things come up if they can bring the funny to it but they do seem to have spent a lot of time before the marriage stressing she was a "little Catholic girl" and afterwards if it was ever mentioned I don't remember it.  

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1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

Has there ever been any discussion on the role religion plays in the Wolowitz household?  Before the marriage Bernadette may not have been a particularly religious Catholic but she did wear a cross (for whatever that's worth).  They didn't have a religious ceremony when they got married - did they ever say is this was a bone of contention between Bernadette and her parents?  I know they will only ever have these kinds of things come up if they can bring the funny to it but they do seem to have spent a lot of time before the marriage stressing she was a "little Catholic girl" and afterwards if it was ever mentioned I don't remember it.  

It seems to me more of an issue was made of it when Howard's mother was alive, like when he thought he put her in the hospital after he told her Bernadette was Catholic, but I can't recall any discussion about religion since they've been married at all.  Like you say, it most likely will be a non-issue until the writers need it to be one.

I have to wonder if they're going to at least mention Michael having a bris.  Most interfaith couples I know (meaning Jewish/other faith, obviously) still have one for their sons.  It's kind of weird, actually.  Even as more and more young Jews are rejecting organized religion and marrying outside the faith, they still want to celebrate the big "life cycle" events, like the bris or baby naming, and the bar and bat mitzvahs.  I can't imagine Howard not wanting these milestones for his children, even if they never set foot inside a synagogue otherwise.

**Disclaimer - I am not Jewish, but I have worked in a synagogue for the last 16 years, so have seen this happening first hand.

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